Lied to me about being married and lied to me about divorcing

[unicorn2014]

 

I wanted to continue the discussion from my last thread and shift the focus on to a new topic: emotional blackmail.

As most of you know I am struggling to stay in a relationship with a man who lied to me about being married and lied to me about divorcing. I say that now because he even though he maintains he filed, I'm tired of his excuses and I'm just going to use shorthand: he lied to me.

Today I feel centered and at peace.

Yesterday I was able to tell my partner that I do not want to hear about this divorce anymore, I just want to see the escrow papers. I suppose I was setting a boundary.

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I have been thinking about the men in my life: my father, my ex, my partner.

My father traits of  NPD.

My ex has traits of ASPD.

My partner has traits of BPD.

These are all things I've learned from therapists.

I do not know what a normal emotional relationship is with a male.

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I'm sure I learned dysfunctional ways of relating because of my past.

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Then there's my mother, whom a former therapist said engaged in projectile guilt, which I will be dealing with on the coping board.

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Which brings us to the subject at hand: fear of my partner's dysregulations. For those of you who watch tv, I started a thread on the show criminal minds where I described a little bit of what I experience when my partner dysregulates.

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I welcome those of you have experience riding out dysregulations to share how you approach your SO when you know you have to say something that is going to dysregulate them. I don't have anything on my plate at the moment, so now is as good a time as ever to have dress rehearsals for the next time a problem comes up.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Chilibean13]

I wish I had answers to that. I still get nervous when I have to tell him something positive or negative. I get nervous. My stomach starts to turn. Sometimes I just chicken out and deal with his blow up when he finds out. Other times I just tell him and I deal with his blow up then. I try to preface it to soften things and he gets mad or I just say it bluntly and he gets mad. So yeah, any suggestions would be great.

[unicorn2014]

I wish I had answers to that. I still get nervous when I have to tell him something positive or negative. I get nervous. My stomach starts to turn. Sometimes I just chicken out and deal with his blow up when he finds out. Other times I just tell him and I deal with his blow up then. I try to preface it to soften things and he gets mad or I just say it bluntly and he gets mad. So yeah, any suggestions would be great.

Thanks for responding chilibean13,

my former therapist told me to pick my battles, to let some things go.

For me I put up a boundary around talking around the issue that is causing conflict, all I want to see is action. I hope that will bring more peace to me and the relationship.

[Grey Kitty]

I do not know what a normal emotional relationship is with a male.

I'd say is you don't know what a healthy relationship looks like. Because for you, the sort you grew up with and have continued IS normal, no matter how unhealthy it is.

This is important because if you try to have a relationship with somebody who is more healthy, it won't feel normal. It will feel uncomfortable to you, because it is so different.

And from what you describe of your mother, I'm wondering if you have had any significant relationships that were healthy?

Do you think your closest friendships are healthy, or do you see dysfunctional patterns running through them as well? Have you had close relationships with teachers/mentors/extended family members, and did any of those seem healthier/better than your closer ones? What about people you work closely with or your bosses?

Many people here upon recognizing the really abusive/toxic aspects of their marriage start to notice that this kind of thing is in many other relationships of theirs.

My reason for asking you to examine this kind of thing isn't to feel bad about all the mess--it is an invitation to look for the healthiest people and best relationships (other than romantic ones) in your life, so you can put more energy into those healthier ones.

I welcome those of you have experience riding out dysregulations to share how you approach your SO when you know you have to say something that is going to dysregulate them.

My experience was more that the dysregulations were mostly triggered by something largely insignificant that I did or perhaps had nothing to do with me.

My most successful approach on dysregulation was to go away and let her be dysregulated away from me, taking care of myself and waiting for it to wind down.

[unicorn2014]

Grey Kitty, today I'm trying not to be hyper vigilant about my partner's dysregulations. I'm trying not to let them affect me so much. I'm trying to appreciate the relationship for what it is. Today was a good day, no arguing, dysregulating, splitting, disassociating.

[waverider]

Important issue GK brings up how do we know what is normal? To many of us it is often what seems familiar and comfortable. We have learned a degree  of dysfunctionality in our normal.`Healthy is not our normal... as a result we sometimes reject it as not normal, when really it is just not familiar.

[unicorn2014]

Grey Kitty and waverider, I hear you about healthy and normal. I remember once having a conversation with a preacher about both of those subjects, and I think the message I got is they are both subjective.

I often think about what is written on these boards, we are the healthier ones, not the healthy ones.

I think I temporarily solved my problem yesterday when I said I do not want to talk about the issue that is bothering me.

That is giving me time to think about my r/s.

It is interesting to me that on these boards I think a lot of people confuse NPD with BPD. People with BPD really aren't that aggressive. They're really kind of weak. They're vulnerable. They get aggressive when they feel threatened but if they don't feel threatened they're quite vulnerable.

So... .

I think I've discovered something, don't threaten my SO.

I find it kind of annoying that he is so sensitive and that the r/s is so much work, however my former therapist did tell me r/s are work.

So here is the real question: how much work is healthy?

[waverider]

It is interesting to me that on these boards I think a lot of people confuse NPD with BPD. People with BPD really aren't that aggressive. They're really kind of weak. They're vulnerable. They get aggressive when they feel threatened but if they don't feel threatened they're quite vulnerable.

You are correct in that most of their conflictual behavior comes from a defensive stance. Unfortunately they can perceive threat from where there is non. As you have found though, because it is a form of active defense, if you dont react or counter it doesn't then validate their perception of threat, and hence reduces escalation.

The trigger for this defensive reaction unfortunately is not always aimed at the correct source, and so a trigger from elsewhere can cause a defensive 'attack' on you. Again though if you counter, it validates you as a threat, if you don't, then it passes more readily.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey Kitty and waverider, I hear you about healthy and normal. I remember once having a conversation with a preacher about both of those subjects, and I think the message I got is they are both subjective.

Normal is subjective. I've got a friend who compares her childhood to growing up in a concentration camp, and while that is an exaggeration, it sounds like it covers the feeling... .and the impact was similar. At 50, she is still struggling to properly identify all the ways her 'normal' is messed up.

Healthy comes in degrees, I suppose, and sometimes a wide range, but I wouldn't call it subjective.

I often think about what is written on these boards, we are the healthier ones, not the healthy ones.

True that. And perhaps not as much healthier as we think we are.  

I think I've discovered something, don't threaten my SO.

Threats usually work badly. They just go worse than usual with a pwBPD!

I find it kind of annoying that he is so sensitive and that the r/s is so much work, however my former therapist did tell me r/s are work.

So here is the real question: how much work is healthy?

I think a better question is what kind of work is healthy, instead of how much.

Either way I'm not going to venture a general answer, but would instead look at more specific areas you are needing to put effort into your relationship.

I'd also add that many (most? all?) of the skills I was working on to improve my relationship were ones that I knew would help me even if the relationship ended. At the time I was thinking that, I didn't really believe it was going to end. I will say that looking back, I have no regrets about all the effort I put into saving my marriage. I think that is a one good way to measure that it was healthy.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

I welcome those of you have experience riding out dysregulations to share how you approach your SO when you know you have to say something that is going to dysregulate them.

Hello unicorn 2014 

I have seen some of your threads and wanted to share my experience with this as it may help you some.

My dBPDh used to have (and still has) really bad dysregulations, with the standard divorce thread going with it. I used to get terribly upset, begging him to calm to, to change his mind, to think about to good things we share, remind him of what he said earlier when he was in a better place, bawling my eyes out in a ball on the floor and having horrible asthma attacks. Clearly, it took it badly.

With the help of this board I decided to stop this. The action was simple and hard at the same time.

1) I say something or does something

2) he dysregulates

3) I say I don't like this tone (or some other wording)

4) I leave the room

5) He's screaming divorce threats and other harmful things

6) I'm not there to listen

7) If he follows me, I go somewhere else

So the steps are simple. The emotional part of it was hard. I remember the first few times I did it, I had such a knot in my stomach and I couldn't sleep. I would go in the shower and cry so he wouldn't hear it. And I would focus on my breathing, and on doing things that calms me down, like watching a good movie

But after a few times, I stared to have a smaller reacing. And as I reacted less, the dysregulation became less as well. It lasted shorter, or he would just be in a bad mood but not threaten divorce for example.

He does have bad dysregulations still, but I am much less affected by them. It annoys me some, but I'm not scared or worried. I remove myself and let him deal with it.

It takes some time and living throught it a few times, but after a little while you learn that he won't follow through with what he says and it's just a dysregulation. It will pass.

[unicorn2014]

It is interesting to me that on these boards I think a lot of people confuse NPD with BPD. People with BPD really aren't that aggressive. They're really kind of weak. They're vulnerable. They get aggressive when they feel threatened but if they don't feel threatened they're quite vulnerable.

You are correct in that most of their conflictual behavior comes from a defensive stance. Unfortunately they can perceive threat from where there is non. As you have found though, because it is a form of active defense, if you dont react or counter it doesn't then validate their perception of threat, and hence reduces escalation.

The trigger for this defensive reaction unfortunately is not always aimed at the correct source, and so a trigger from elsewhere can cause a defensive 'attack' on you. Again though if you counter, it validates you as a threat, if you don't, then it passes more readily.

Yes, and my pwBPD does also have ptsd which makes his defensive reactions missile charged. Yesterday was a good day as I didn't react to anything. Let's see what today brings.

(I have been struggling with sleep issues myself and went back to an old drug my first psych prescribed and today is day two on that old drug. We will see how it goes. Its supposed to also reduce interpersonal sensitivity, which is ironic.)

I don't feel like meeting my pwBPD constant need for reassurance, from morning till evening, its exhausting.

I do this thing where I count the number of times he says I love you and yesterday he said it like five times within the first five minutes of connecting to him on FaceTime. Only those on this board know why that's a problem, because I've also experienced the verbal abuse, the devaluation, the neediness, the clinginess. A more clueless romantic type might not get my complaint.

[unicorn2014]

Hi Scarlet Phoenix, I appreciate that. I don't live with my pwBPD, as you can see by my subject heading that the moderators created for me. Based on my topic I'm totally entitled to an all out dysregulation. 

Now that the really topic is out there in plain english, that's really the question, how do I stay in a r/s with someone who lied to me about being married and then lied to me again about divorcing, and says he did not lie about divorcing .

[Grey Kitty]

Based on my topic I'm totally entitled to an all out dysregulation. 

Now that the really topic is out there in plain english, that's really the question, how do I stay in a r/s with someone who lied to me about being married and then lied to me again about divorcing, and says he did not lie about divorcing .

I don't think any of us here can help you with the question of how to accept being in that kind of relationship. It is a very personal choice, and up to you. I have tried to make it clear to you where you are making your own choice about this relationship. If you feel stuck in situations like this, often it means you have made a choice, and didn't even notice or acknowledge the choice, and don't like the consequences of the choice.

Accept the choice before you, and admit that what you truly WANT isn't actually on the menu of choices in front of you. (You cannot chose to have him be divorced right now, or even to take the next legal step!) Look at and think about the options you do have, then choose one, knowing that it is the best one for you available today. Your actions, your relationship may not even look different to anybody outside yourself, but the internal peace of knowing you are doing the right thing for yourself is huge.



However we can offer you a lot of tools and ideas how to cope with the next dysregulation. I think Scarlet Phoenix's description was fantastic. When you do it, since your relationship is long distance, it will be logistically easy to get away from him (compared to her situation). She also described how it felt when she started--that wasn't easy, and your feelings won't be any easier because of the distance.

Nobody says it is easy... .I know when I first started stepping out of verbal abuse and circular arguments, it was incredibly tough for me. And like SP, it got a little easier each time I did it. Until it reached a point where it was really easy, almost automatic. You can get there too. 

[unicorn2014]

Based on my topic I'm totally entitled to an all out dysregulation. 

Now that the really topic is out there in plain english, that's really the question, how do I stay in a r/s with someone who lied to me about being married and then lied to me again about divorcing, and says he did not lie about divorcing .

I don't think any of us here can help you with the question of how to accept being in that kind of relationship. It is a very personal choice, and up to you. I have tried to make it clear to you where you are making your own choice about this relationship. If you feel stuck in situations like this, often it means you have made a choice, and didn't even notice or acknowledge the choice, and don't like the consequences of the choice.

I didn't title it that, the moderators pulled that titled from my thread.  I suppose its a good thing they did because I would never title a thread like that since he claims he did file.

I had actually put in a  common after divorcing, even though he said he did.



Its a hard relationship to have any real affection in because my mind keeps going back to "you lied about being married, and now you can't even take a picture of the escrow papers for me." It really is a killjoy.

Accept the choice before you, and admit that what you truly WANT isn't actually on the menu of choices in front of you. (You cannot chose to have him be divorced right now, or even to take the next legal step!) Look at and think about the options you do have, then choose one, knowing that it is the best one for you available today. Your actions, your relationship may not even look different to anybody outside yourself, but the internal peace of knowing you are doing the right thing for yourself is huge.

I'm choosing not to destabilize things for now until I have something else to replace the relationship with. In my case that would not be another relationship but a career.


Thank you for your encouragement.

I think the hardest thing for me today is the constant, I love you, I miss you, I want to be with you, meanwhile I'm thinking, yeah? where's your escrow papers? where's your divorce decree?

To be honest it makes me not even want to talk to him. And of course I can't say those things to him because he will dysregulate and nothing good will come of it so i have to pretend like everything is ok. I can't tell him "it irritates me when you tell me you miss me and you wish you were with me"

[sweetheart]

It is interesting to me that on these boards I think a lot of people confuse NPD with BPD. People with BPD really aren't that aggressive. They're really kind of weak. They're vulnerable. They get aggressive when they feel threatened but if they don't feel threatened they're quite vulnerable.

So... .

I think I've discovered something, don't threaten my SO.

I find it kind of annoying that he is so sensitive and that the r/s is so much work, however my former therapist did tell me r/s are work.

So here is the real question: how much work is healthy?

Hi unicorn,

I believe it's important to say that in my experience the people on this forum don't for the most part confuse BPD with NPD. Those without the benefit of a diagnosis recognise and relate to the characteristics and behaviours associated with BPD laid out in the information here on this forum, that is why they continue to post here.

Even with the benefit of a diagnosis what I have come to realise is that there are a great many similarities and overlapping characteristics between personality disorders. And of course people can display traits of many disorders at the same time.

Your comment about aggression not being linked to pwBPD may of course be true in your experience, but aggression and violence especially intimate partner violent are linked to BPD. Here is link for you to read, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3342993/

The reason I highlight this is because you will find instances of externalised aggressive behaviour quite prevalent across this forum. For some nons it is what brings them to seek help on this forum.

In the book Stop Walking on Eggshells it talks about levels of dysregulated behaviour, where on a scale of 0-10, anything from a 7 up can result in extremely unpredictable and often dangerous behaviour.

In my experience, what becomes important then for someone dealing with dysregulated behaviour, is to develop a mindset that focuses on creating healthy interactions. We as the non have a responsibility to role model appropriate behaviour and responses once we understand that we are dealing with mental illness.

I am not suggesting that it is easy, but over time and with consistency and a good support network for ourselves, it is possible to create a more balanced relationship, where dysregulated behaviours can reduce in frequency and intensity.

What has been most effective for you when dealing with dysregulated behaviour?

[Cat Familiar]

I want to echo sweetheart's comment that pwBPD can be capable of violence.

The violence in my first marriage started with verbal abuse then escalated to grabbing, pushing, shoving. As it became more habitual for my husband to express his anger physically, he started punching me and choking me, sitting on my chest with his hands around my neck.

There were several instances where he could have killed me inadvertently, my head nearly missing the bathroom counter when he knocked me to the floor is one that I vividly recall. He seemed to think he had the violence under control and that he wouldn't "hurt" me even though I ended up sore and bruised.

I didn't believe in violence and I didn't fight back, hoping my passivity would put an end to it. It didn't.

Finally my anger grew so strong that my self-protective instincts kicked in and after he threw something at me and chased me down the driveway one night, I decided to end the marriage and slept alone with a knife in my hand. I told my self "if this f*@ker comes after me in my sleep, I'm going to take him down. I don't care about the consequences."

Fortunately he didn't. I believe I was fully prepared to do anything for my survival. This is how women end up imprisoned after living with domestic violence for many years.

Please don't disregard the possibility that a pwBPD could be physically abusive if they're verbally abusive. Often abuse graduates from verbal to physical.

[Grey Kitty]

$.02 from me--My wife's verbal/emotional abuse/violence did start escalating to physical violence. I was slapped a few times, fairly hard. It never got to where I was afraid of being injured personally... .but I did see the escalating trend, and made VERY sure I wasn't tolerating it, and changed the direction of it before it ever got there.

To be honest it makes me not even want to talk to him. And of course I can't say those things to him because he will dysregulate and nothing good will come of it so i have to pretend like everything is ok. I can't tell him "it irritates me when you tell me you miss me and you wish you were with me"

What you say is true except for one thing. Pretending everything is OK, when it clearly isn't feeling that way is not something you have to do.

I do agree that telling him about your negative feelings toward him isn't going to have a good result, and I don't recommend that. (I'm sure you've done it in the past often enough to know how the script goes from there!)

However, there is one thing you can do. You can honor your desire not to talk to him. Do it honestly and directly, and make it about yourself, not about him.

This is pretty much picking a fight/dysregulation/etc. It is too much about him, and it makes things a big relationship fight.

I don't want to talk to you until I see the escrow papers.

This is honest, and just about you. It is only about your feelings today.

I don't feel like talking to you today. I'll call you tomorrow.

I snuck in a bonus into it--a pwBPD has a very bad fear of abandonment, that if you reject him in any way, it means (to him) that his entire relationship with you is over, etc, etc. by putting a clear end date on that, you are explicitly telling him that you aren't abandoning him, that this is temporary.

If you do this sort of thing, try very very hard to live up to that commitment when you make it. And if you do it, try to be specific (Tomorrow, at dinner time, in two hours, etc.) Words like "soon" or "later" are dangerous because you may be thinking tomorrow is soon, and he is thinking 15 minutes is soon. It is messed up if you think you honored your commitment/promise and he thinks you violated it with the exact same event!

[unicorn2014]

I hear what everyone is saying and my therapist today Inquired if I felt safe in my r/s.

I pointed out to her my SO lives in another state.

She said I was planning on living with him eventually. I told her he agreed to do DBT before we lived together. She pointed out that he was not right for me now. That is the same thing my former sponsor said.

Today my SO was asking me why I was guarded. I didn't tell him. I told him I would call him after my meeting . I like what was said about telling him I'll call him at another time being about me and not him. The ironic thing is he feels free to tell me he'll talk to me some other time.

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The big thing we were talking about in therapy today was me wanting to call off the engagement until my SO got divorced. I am afraid he will dysregulate if I say that. That's why my therapist asked me if I felt safe.

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[Grey Kitty]

  Those are tough choices to face.

I wish you courage and clarity.

You deserve a life where you feel safe. 

[unicorn2014]

Thank you grey kitty, that is the same thing my therapist said. I didn't tell her I felt unsafe.

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My SO keeps telling me over and over he misses me. I can't say I miss him too because I don't. I'm mad at him that the whole time I was with him I thought he had done something that apparently he didn't (file for divorce). All of the physical experiences we had were the result of him coming to see me.

[Grey Kitty]

Back to your fear that he will dysregulate if you tell him the engagement is off until he is divorced.

First off, as far as I'm concerned, the engagement being off is a clear and obvious truth, whether you tell him or not.

Engagement is a promise to marry you.

Today he cannot follow through on that promise. It is illegal for him to marry you while he is still married. If you told him he had to fly the 2000 miles by flapping his arms to marry you, that wouldn't make it any harder for him to actually do it today.

And you cannot marry him today either. It is just as illegal for you as for him. The engagement is two matched empty promises today.

(Yes, he can change this, but that is the status today.)

Anyhow, that is half the problem.

The other half is that if you tell him that the emperor has no clothes, you are afraid he will dysregulate.

You know... .I think it is very likely he will dysregulate if you tell him. Almost certain.

What exactly are you afraid of in this upcoming dysregulation?

From what you say, he doesn't express much anger directly at you; I suspect he's more likely to try to guilt you over things, or give you the silent treatment.

[unicorn2014]

What exactly are you afraid of in this upcoming dysregulation?

From what you say, he doesn't express much anger directly at you; I suspect he's more likely to try to guilt you over things, or give you the silent treatment.

Hi Grey Kitty,

I think first of all I'm feeling ashamed for accepting the marriage proposal of a married man. I can't remember if he proposed to me before or after I found out he was married, but I'm thinking before because he told me it was his intention to marry me from the start so I'm having a hard time with self acceptance right now.

Second of all I'm feeling frustrated that I'm in this position.

To answer your question, what am I afraid of? First let me ask you a question, what does anger expressed directly at me look like? I have to tell you the last time he dysregulated on me I was ready to go to the police station and file a restraining order and I told him so after. He blew up my phone with abusive text messages and voice mails. He actually put in a call to his therapist after that incident to find out if he was abusive. He told me his therapist told him he needed to come up with a safe word to let me know when he was being triggered. Of course I don't believe anything he says his therapist says because when I go back and verify what he says (his current therapist is one of my former therapists) its not quite the same.

So what I am afraid of? Being told to f off, f you, being told to go away little girl, being called, texted, being told I can't have a relationship with anyone, being told I'm borderline, being told he made a mistake, being told he was deluded.

I like what you said about telling him I don't want to talk to him is about me not him, that was very helpful. Thank you.

*I have to say I'm feeling a bit triggered today because my brother sent me a text today asking me if me and my daughter were going to his house for thanksgiving and whether or not my partner was coming. Of course I told him my partner wasn't coming but I didn't tell him why, however being reminded of how things have been for the last 3 years irritated me. I feel like I've been living a lie for the last 3 years with this man whom I've introduced to my family and their friends. Granted my family all know his story, the whole truth of it, and like him.

[Grey Kitty]

First let me ask you a question, what does anger expressed directly at me look like?

Here are a few things that qualify clearly as expressing anger directly at you.

Being told to f off, f you

being told to go away little girl

being told I can't have a relationship with anyone

being told he made a mistake [when he got involved with you]

Anger may be expressed more in non-verbal ways, tone of voice, a look.

In many cases, if he was smiling when he said it everything would be different.

However defining whether it was anger, or something else is mostly besides the point. I wanted you to describe what you thought he might do.

OK... .now you've described it:

I have to tell you the last time he dysregulated on me I was ready to go to the police station and file a restraining order and I told him so after. He blew up my phone with abusive text messages and voice mails.

... .

So what I am afraid of? Being told to f off, f you, being told to go away little girl, being called, texted, being told I can't have a relationship with anyone, being told I'm borderline, being told he made a mistake, being told he was deluded.

I note you say "the last time he dysregulated... ."

When I thought about what I was afraid my wife would do, really thought about what she was likely to do, I realized a few things about the whole sequence.

1. She had already done it to me. Many times.

2. I survived it every time so far

3. I am better at getting away from her and protecting myself from all the crap than I used to be.

And then I realized that living in fear of what she would do in a dysregulation wasn't working well for me at all.

One practical suggestion for you, since this is long distance. If he starts to "blow up your phone", you have two very good tools available to you.

1. You can turn your phone off.

2. You can block him on your phone/social media/email/etc.

Neither of these has to be permanent. Both will give you some peace from him for as long as you leave them in place.

I think first of all I'm feeling ashamed for accepting the marriage proposal of a married man.

 Understandable that you feel bad.  I know I've been kinda beating you over the head with the situation. Sorry if I'm holding your feet closer to the fire than I should. Especially if I'm coming across harsh or judgmental.

Be gentle with yourself. He was talking marriage to you before admitting to his existing one. That's not on you, that's on him. Give yourself some space to think and feel. (Less contact or no contact with him for a bit could help.) You cannot change anything you've done for the last three years. Beating yourself up over it won't help you now, nor will it resolve anything.

Do you have any trustworthy and emotionally mature friends or family members? Anybody you can talk to, who will just listen, with compassion, without an agenda, without judgement? If you do, seek them out. You need support like that now. (Yes, keep talking to your therapist! A good one really helps!)

[unicorn2014]

One practical suggestion for you, since this is long distance. If he starts to "blow up your phone", you have two very good tools available to you.

1. You can turn your phone off.

2. You can block him on your phone/social media/email/etc.

Neither of these has to be permanent. Both will give you some peace from him for as long as you leave them in place.

I have done that before, in fact the last time I'm the one that unfriended him on Facebook. He used to do that to me. I have blocked him on my phone but he will know I do that because it turns off sharing location and we permanently share our locations, so I know if I'm going to do that I have to be ready for the repercussions. I don't like cleaning up the mess after a dysregulation.

 Understandable that you feel bad.  I know I've been kinda beating you over the head with the situation. Sorry if I'm holding your feet closer to the fire than I should. Especially if I'm coming across harsh or judgmental.

Actually I found this topic title helpful as I did not choose it but it was pulled from my post. He maintains he filed. So for me to say he lied about divorcing is to contradict him. He admitted to lying about being married. So that's the biggest problem now, the court record said he didn't file, he said he did. I've been living with that since September.

Its interesting to be talking here about that problem and meanwhile trying to pretend like everything is ok with him. He's just carrying on as everything is ok.

I haven't told him my brother asked if he was coming for thanksgiving.

He told me that all the people he asked about thanksgiving were busy. I asked him about his parents. He said they were doing something else.

Thanksgiving for him is the most important holiday of the year and for the last three years he's spent it with me and my family, 2 years at my parents, 1 year at my brother's. This is the first time in 3 years he hasn't been with me and its because I found out his divorce wasn't filed with the court. This is also the first time he has connected with his parents since he's known me. I haven't sent a return card to his dad yet. His dad is accepting of me and my daughter but I'm not sure I want to go on building a relationship with him while things are what they are. It seems like everybody is ok with the situation but me.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanksgiving for him is the most important holiday of the year and for the last three years he's spent it with me and my family

[... .]

It seems like everybody is ok with the situation but me.

I'm not going to guess about his family, but I've got a good idea what is going on with yours there... .

You've been indicating to your family that everything is OK up 'till now. They are supporting you, taking a cue from you.

In addition, from what you've said of your history, the guys you've been involved with prior were considerably worse, and much of your family is more dysfunctional than him as well. In other words, your history set the bar so low that he is looking pretty darn good... .whether he really is good enough for you or not! Seriously... .ASPD is pretty hard not to be better than!

Anyhow... .whether he filed crap with the courts about his divorce or not... .until the divorce is completely, he still cannot marry you. And from my POV, being engaged to you is meaningless.

So... .back to his dysregulations... .you can block him and shut down the CRAP he's going to spew at you if he does it. You've been through it before. Why let the fear of that drive your actions? Believe me when I say that I really don't like myself much when I let that kind of fear drive me.

Yes, the fear is real... .but no, it doesn't belong in the drivers seat.

[unicorn2014]

I'm not going to guess about his family, but I've got a good idea what is going on with yours there... .

You've been indicating to your family that everything is OK up 'till now. They are supporting you, taking a cue from you.

Grey kitty, I've been open with my family from the beginning. They all like him. They all the know the truth.

In addition, from what you've said of your history, the guys you've been involved with prior were considerably worse, and much of your family is more dysfunctional than him as well. In other words, your history set the bar so low that he is looking pretty darn good... .whether he really is good enough for you or not! Seriously... .ASPD is pretty hard not to be better than

Grey kitty,

I haven't discussed his family to protect his anonymity however he has a mentally ill brother, his father was physically abusive, his mother had BPD traits.

I've only brought one other man home: my ex. I say he has aspd traits because he has sociopathic traits, so I drew the conclusion they were the same thing.

I think I've falsely portrayed myself on this thread. I don't know how to correct my mistake. My sibling and parents are educated, professional people. My parents have been together over 40 years. I have a brother that has a disability, that is what caused the dysfunction in my family. There's a lot I don't talk about because I care about people's anonymity.

Also I am protecting my partners anonymity, I haven't disclosed how or why I met my partner, what he does for a living, why I found him appealing in the first place, and the things that still hold my attention.

A low bar is not the problem here.

[Grey Kitty]

OK... .if the low bar isn't the issue, move along. I was trying to give you credit for getting involved with a guy who was healthier than your exH, even if he wasn't fully healthy.

Sorta like a woman I know who was married for over a decade twice before I met her. The first one was physically abusive, and she finally got out. The second one sounds NPD, and was verbally/emotionally abusive. Part of why she stayed involved telling herself "Well at least he doesn't hit me." Which was true, but didn't mean it was healthy.

Back to your family and your guy. The healthy and supportive thing for your family to do is to support you. That means give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you unless they see things that clearly contradict that.

So if you are happy with this guy, and introduce him as the man you are going to marry, they will try to be supportive of your relationship. (If my sister introduced me to a guy that way I'd be supportive.)

That they find him to be likable (from the distance of not being in a romantic relationship with him!) is a good sign, and makes it easier for them to support you.

On the other hand, if you tell them how angry, hurt, and betrayed you feel over his deception and delays around his marriage and divorce, they should support you too. If you were my sister, I would still try to support you. I wouldn't join in bashing the guy, but I'd be really clear that I support you in whatever choice you make. Even if you change your mind 16 times about this relationship, I'm here for you. I would tread very lightly on counseling you to go forward with the r/s or end the r/s, as it is your choice, not mine. (Unless I thought you were in danger. Then I'd feel obligated to say something.)

I don't know how supportive your family is. I don't know what capacity they have to support you in a struggling relationship, without getting wrapped up in their own agenda about it. I know that when my marriage fell apart, I did get excellent support from my family, but not the deep emotional support for me making these choices. I had friends that I trusted in that way more than my family. For better or for worse, that is my reality. I know people who have parents they trust deeply with their intimate feelings. I know people who have parents that are toxic to be around and they are NC with them. I'm somewhere in the middle.

[GaGrl]

Your fiance's situation around Thanksgiving is one of his own creation - he is experiencing the consequences of his prior actions. And his constant "I miss you, I want to be with you" statements are his attempts to test your boundaries. Stay true to your values and your boundaries and let him experience the consequences.

[formflier]

I think I've falsely portrayed myself on this thread. I don't know how to correct my mistake. My sibling and parents are educated, professional people. My parents have been together over 40 years. I have a brother that has a disability, that is what caused the dysfunction in my family. There's a lot I don't talk about because I care about people's anonymity.

Is any of this relevant?

Does not appear to me that it is.

What I'm seeing is the relevant point here is to not let fear of dysregulations get in the way of healthy choices for you.

Healthy choices for you... .in my opinion... .are also healthy choices for your partner.  That is very different than saying he will like the choices.


FF

[unicorn2014]

Your fiance's situation around Thanksgiving is one of his own creation - he is experiencing the consequences of his prior actions. And his constant "I miss you, I want to be with you" statements are his attempts to test your boundaries. Stay true to your values and your boundaries and let him experience the consequences.

Thank you gagirl I agree and I will. It's rather tiresome.