How do you learn to love them again?

[Cat Familiar]

One of the most valuable parts of this forum has been posting my history with pwBPDs in response to other people's threads. Discussing these wounds is traumatic but is helping me heal since I never shared those stories with friends and family when they occurred because it was so shameful. I've heard other's horror stories and I can remember quite a list of very personally damaging scenes, starting with my mother and continuing through my first marriage, a relationship with a subsequent boyfriend and now with my current husband.

Of all of these people, I can say that the past boyfriend and my present husband are the most healthy and have inflicted the least damage upon my psyche, but there's been a cumulative effect that BPD has had upon me and it hasn't been good.

I'd like to free myself from the chains of this history and I'd like to feel more loving towards my husband. He is a good man and he deserves it. I feel like that the wounds I carry from previous relationships cause me to be more cynical and distant from him than he deserves. Granted he has done some things that should make me wary, but certainly not like what I've experienced in the past.

So anyone have good tips about healing from past BPD relationships and being more fully present in the here and now?

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[Chilibean13]

The wounds inflicted on us can sometimes last a lifetime. I strongly believe in the power of forgiveness. I think it is the key to relieving so many of the hurts from our past and even in our current life.

I've learned that for me to forgive, it does not mean that I have to "feel" like forgiving the person. In fact, the person may not deserve forgiveness. It also means that just becuase I forgive the person it doesn't mean that everything with that person has to go back to normal,as if it never happened. Another thing with forgivness is that forgivness is not forgetting. It's important that we remember the power this person had over us, or the hurt that they inflicted so we can be alert and respond appropriately if they attempt to do so again in the future.

Instead I view forgivenss as setting myself free. I have chosen to wear this chain that allows my own psyche to be damanged by someone who may or may not even realize they have hurt me. The person may not even care, yet I give them the ability to continually hurt me with fresh wounds, memories of the past, and emotional scars.

When I get to the point of not wanting to hurt because of them, I verbally say, "I choose to forgive (insert name) for (fill in what they did).  He/She hurt me by (fill in what they did) but I am no longer going to let that affect me today. I choose to live in freedom."

If you are a Christian, I also throw in something about, "God, you're word says that if we do not forgive others then you will not forgive us. I am not willing to give up my salvation so that I can hang on to resentment toward (insert name). Jesus forgave me for more than what (insert name) did to me so I am forgiving them now."

Sometimes I have to do this over and over. Sometimes it's a whole list of things to forgive. Other times, I'm able to easily let it go. And still things that I"ve forgiven for will start to creep up on me again slowly over time and when that happens I just have to go through the forgiveness process all over again.

[Cat Familiar]

Thank you Chilebean. Fortunately my ex-husband has an active warrant for his arrest due to beating up his second wife, so I doubt that I will ever see him again. My mother is dead and I took care of her her last few years, so I feel like I'm mostly complete with her.

I will try your process of actively forgiving. That's a really good practice.   

[Grey Kitty]

I've got $.02 to offer you from where I'm coming from. Not sure if it will help you or not :P

Forgiveness -- That is for YOU, not for him, not for your ex, not for you parents, not for the person being forgiven.

It is about deciding that you are going to move on with your life, you are going to stop renting out space in your head for them, you aren't going to keep yourself, your life, your future focused on the damage that they did to you in the past. Yes, the damage is real. Yes, it mattered. But now, it is time for you to heal from it, and move forward. (As Chilibean says, it doesn't mean you need to open yourself up to more damage from them--just that you aren't going to let the old damage define you anymore.

Loving again my spouse again--I'm probably the wrong person to ask, but I've had one glass of wine too many tonight, so I'll answer anyways with how it is for me    My marriage is DONE. First my wife was done with it. Six months later, she's started with half-a$$-ed indications about reconciling, and now I'm DONE. When you are told calmly, not in any sort of dysregulation that your (former) partner doesn't want to be in a romantic/sexual relationship with you, it is time to believe it and move on.

Or perhaps I should say I still love her. I always will. But when it comes to being in a romantic relationship with her again, I'm no longer interested. She's not up to my standards now. I don't think she's been up to them for quite a few years, but it wasn't bad enough that I was willing to dump her. However it is bad enough that I'm not willing to take her back. Today I think she did me a serious favor by deciding she was done with our marriage and telling me so clearly. I'm moving on, and I've learned so much in the process.

But I still love her. Always will. A couple months ago I was working with her on a project for the same organization we both still volunteer with. We still work together pretty well. Despite all that I'm holding myself at an emotional distance--I don't trust her. I've got people in my life that I do trust, people who are easy to be with, people I feel safe with. She's not it. I sincerely hope my next serious romantic relationship is with somebody who is up to these standards.

I hope to be able to be friends with my wife someday when everything settles out.

But back to recovery, love, and forgiveness. I do feel like I'm starting to really recover from the damage that 10,000 drops of abuse/neglect/negativity/etc. aimed at me did. As somebody trying to support your marriage, I hate to say that this is happening to me now, after 13 months of separation, but that's where I am.

And nine months ago, I was ready, willing, and eager to reconcile with my wife and make things work. I even believed I could re-build myself while going back into my marriage / staying in it. Today I'm not so sure I could have. I'm pretty sure it would have slowed me down a lot. But then my wife wasn't interested. Sometimes it is clear that life gave me exactly what I needed, and this is starting to become clear. And all the years we stayed together... .and the years where I worked incredibly hard to improve and save our marriage. All 1000% worth it. Marriage saved or not, I learned so much, and wouldn't trade it for anything else in the world.

I don't know what sort of answer still loving, but not staying married and in a relationship is, but it is where I am. (With a minor dose of feeling generally pissy about my wife today. That will likely pass. The love and the separation seem to be here to stay.

[unicorn2014]

Cat Familiar, that is a beautiful post, and in some ways, reflective of my own journey, albeit differently.

I can say for myself the best thing that I can do for any partner of mine or relationship of mine is take good care of myself . For me that means medication, therapy, exercise, diet, sleep, recovery.

I hope that you find some useful information in people's responses!

[formflier]

Great topic.

GK is right on point... .forgiveness is for you... .it's about your heart and that attitude that comes out of that heart.

Words about the past that are bad... .wallowing and stewing (I'm sure there are more)

Words about the past that are good... .accepting and understanding  (same here... I'm sure the list can get longer)

This is not to say that having negative thoughts... .being pissed... .are bad... .but somehow the amount of time spent with the bad stuff... .needs to be outweighed about how much you deal with the good.

Then... .there is the part about accepting and hoping for the future... .that will affect the way you look at the past.

Several months ago I thought I had this thing licked (southern for solved)... .move stress... .the BPD monster came out again. 

Had a very normal... enjoyable conversation with my wife on the phone last night.  The person I love is still there... .I don't like the BPD side of her.

Having a hard time reconciling that it is all the same person... .a bit tough to get my mind around.

Anyway... .forgiveness is #1. 

FF

[waverider]

It is the projection of past sins of personality disorder onto the current representative of the personality disorder that is causing you problems

Seeing him as an individual rather than just a pwBPD is the key.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for all the wonderful insights.   Yes, forgiveness is realizing that their behavior stems from betrayal, abandonment, genetics, etc. and is really not designed to personally hurt me (at least most times).

When I think of my mother, I know she loved me, and I loved her. My first husband was so damaged and living with him destroyed what little self esteem I had. However, extracting myself from that marriage showed me that I have incredible strength and the life I created from the wreckage has given me more self-esteem than I could ever imagine. My boyfriend taught me invaluable lessons about the business word.

I've realized that all my life I was hoping for someone to rescue me and it ain't gonna happen. Nor should it. I can take care of myself. With this marriage, I thought I had found my knight in shining armor. Nope.

This all became very clear to me when it occurred to me that I could not rely upon my husband's legal instincts regarding a deposition I will give next week in a civil suit. I'm being deposed by the defendant's attorney and a few weeks ago my husband trusted the plaintiff's attorney and gave him way too much information and even asked him to represent me. I was surprised and thought it was a conflict of interest, but I'm no lawyer.

It wasn't until I the plaintiff's secretary called me a couple of days ago that I realized I was being potentially set up as a defendant in a nuisance suit. My husband had been stressing about this deposition for weeks and he completely dropped the ball and didn't follow through in obtaining documents regarding the case and went on a week long vacation in New York City, leaving me to twist in the wind.

In one day I sacked the sleazy attorney who mined my husband for information he could use against me, I hired a litigator, and I obtained a copy of the legal filings.

And last night, when my husband returned, he tried to trigger me (without success) by saying several times, "I'm glad you finally got engaged in this." How could I when he took all the phone calls and made all the arrangements without asking me? I didn't take the bait (thanks BPD Family) and I realized he was projecting his embarrassment for being stupid, a crappy attorney, and not only not protecting me, but making me more vulnerable.

I was angry, but I realized that I was angry at his behavior and poor judgment, not at him. I realized that he had spent so much time being upset, that it really impacted his ability to think clearly. And for all the stories he has told me about what a great lawyer he was, I started wondering how much his emotions got in the way and prevented him from being a good counsel for his clients. I will never make the mistake of thinking that he can protect me, but that's OK, I can protect myself.

I think this is a good step towards forgiveness. I am responsible and capable. I don't need a knight.

[formflier]

 

What kind of lawyer was he?

[Cat Familiar]

He ended his career as a deputy county counsel, specializing in land use in a small good old boy county. Prior to that he did environmental mediation. Previously as a county counsel in a major metropolitan city, in addition to land use, he did child dependency. And he began his career in general practice, but he realized it was just trying to obtain money from one party to give to another party and he preferred to do something for the general good, so he got into public law. He hated being a lawyer and it really took a toll on him because he has a hard time with conflict (and emotion--like all BPDs).

[waverider]

I think the law and sales are two fields that actually reinforce BPD behavior, both require a singlemindness to "win" regardless of the needs of the other party.

It can trigger their worst aspects.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, law and personality disorders go hand in hand--lots of narcissists too!

[Cat Familiar]

Kind of a big epiphany for me to realize that I wanted a protector, a rescuer, someone who was stronger than me who could intervene on my behalf in the cruel world.

And what I got was someone who needed ME to rescue HIM. (I'm not speaking about this particular incident with the lawsuit, rather more in general terms.)

It's a heavy burden to be someone's knight. I didn't realize how much I was asking. And then, I was disappointed when he didn't manifest "knightly" behavior.

I think my task is to just accept him for who he is and appreciate him for that. Then we'll see if I can feel more loving feelings for him.

Already I have a lot more compassion for him. It's a start... .

[Grey Kitty]

Kind of a big epiphany for me to realize that I wanted a protector, a rescuer, someone who was stronger than me who could intervene on my behalf in the cruel world.

And what I got was someone who needed ME to rescue HIM. (I'm not speaking about this particular incident with the lawsuit, rather more in general terms.)

It's a heavy burden to be someone's knight. I didn't realize how much I was asking. And then, I was disappointed when he didn't manifest "knightly" behavior.

Yeah, that whole rescuer thing is an ugly piece of work when you really see how it goes, isn't it  I know I'm not the only one here who tends to do that at least a little bit. And when I say it is ugly, I mean both sides of it, rescuer and rescuee.

What I'm finding much healthier these days is people who have my back. People who care when some part of the cruel world takes a stab at me. (Like my stbexW, as a recent example) and it is mutual--we can support each other, without anybody rescuing or needing to be rescued!

It is good to see this kind of dynamic so you can step out of it

[waverider]

What I'm finding much healthier these days is people who have my back. People who care when some part of the cruel world takes a stab at me. (Like my stbexW, as a recent example) and it is mutual--we can support each other, without anybody rescuing or needing to be rescued!

It is good to see this kind of dynamic so you can step out of it

Another complication you need to be aware of is the "faux rescuer". Someone who likes to make a show of backing you up and rescuing, but their ultimate motivation is actually to receive approval for doing so. This often shows in the need to make a big display of their support, at times their over the top response can actually take over and escalate the original issue. This is a trait my wife has.

I think it is common with pwBPDs when they step into rescuer role.

[Cat Familiar]

Yeah, that whole rescuer thing is an ugly piece of work when you really see how it goes, isn't it   I know I'm not the only one here who tends to do that at least a little bit. And when I say it is ugly, I mean both sides of it, rescuer and rescuee.



Yes, it's like a bad Taylor Swift song.  

Another complication you need to be aware of is the "faux rescuer". Someone who likes to make a show of backing you up and rescuing, but their ultimate motivation is actually to receive approval for doing so. This often shows in the need to make a big display of their support, at times their over the top response can actually take over and escalate the original issue. This is a trait my wife has.

I think it is common with pwBPDs when they step into rescuer role.

I've certainly observed this pattern with my pwBPD. Fooled me for a long time. Thought it was the real deal instead of "fools' gold"

I just want someone to have my back and I can count on that with some of my friends and perhaps my spouse when it doesn't throw him emotionally.

[Notwendy]

This is a great thread. Yes, I think I was a hurt child, and married another hurt child who ( probably like me) hid it well. I think we are a paradox, Cat , strong women who still want someone to take up a protective role for them. I think I married someone similar- who seemed and acted tough on the outside.

I didn't see it well before, because he could be so scary when he was angry and I WOE around him to try to keep things calm and not upset him. I realized the other day that I have made progress, because he did something that I felt was important enough to talk about- he was being evasive about something small, and although I could have let it go, one of my relationship needs is honesty and I stood up for that.

I realize that being evasive is his choice, and that I can't change that. However, I don't have to be silent or pretend it is OK.

I didn't yell, rage, or have a fit, I just didn't back down when he became agitated, tried to tangent the conversation and then, I noticed that he began acting like I had wounded him- saying that I was attacking him over nothing and being out of control as if I was yelling and raging. I started to say something like I don't think I'm the one who gets out of control ( in comparison to his raging) but I stopped. I also was no longer afraid to speak my mind. That was progress because I would have not said anything before or if I did, allowed him to sidetrack the conversation or be too afraid to continue.

I don't identify a conversation like that as "love" in my emotional experience. I also wonder about that "love" you mention, and I wonder if what I experience as romantic "love" was determined as a child, and maybe isn't "love".  It's strange and maybe sad, but I would have to go way back to even remember that feeling. I know I felt it early on in my marriage and for a long time until the emotional issues in the relationship got to a point where I couldn't. That point coincided with understanding my parents, and that what I knew as "love" should not cause so much emotional pain and also something I had to work so hard to get a little of in return.

I think what I experienced as love was part parental love- they did love me- but it was also so combined with the job of trying to please my mother, and that longing of someone to love me like I wished a mother would- like my friends' mothers seemed to love them. Add to that the teen years of listening to romantic love songs and thinking that love was out there if only I was good enough to find it. So, I set out to be "good enough" ( co-dependent) in hopes that someone would love me in return. My idea of that love was to make them happy and hope they would love me.

To give up being co-dependent, I need to know a different love, but it may require not feeling that feeling- that thing I think we look for in relationships- that "chemistry" that perhaps is what sets us out to attract and be attracted to another person who is also matching that "love". Perhaps this is what makes us vulnerable to the intense focus of a relationship with someone with BPD initially.

I can identify different feelings of love. I know I love my children, and that's a different feeling than the feelings I have for my H and my parents. I know what I'd be feeling if Jake Gyllenhaal walked in my front door, but that isn't love. Being married didn't mean I stopped having any sense of attraction to people, I just ignored it and usually it went away. However, I don't trust that attraction- meaning, if my "love" recognition- what connects me to "love" was formed in a dysfunctional family, then maybe it isn't going to lead me to an emotionally healthy person.

I deal with anger, forgiveness, as well as wondering about that "love" feeling, and have come to accept that I think I need to learn a new "love". I do love my H in many ways- and I have learned that love also means accepting him for who he is. This love includes a self love. I don't have to accept being treated poorly to be loved, like I did in my FOO. I can speak my mind without fear of losing "love". That "love " doesn't mean treating him like he is so fragile he can not handle it if I speak the truth, but I must also be decent about it and not yell or be cruel. My H didn't experience the recent conversation we had as "love", and neither did I at first, but I think- being my true self with him is a start at learning love.

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

Can you give more details on the conversation?

What was leading you to believe there was not honesty?

Do you believe after standing firm that he became honest about the topic?


Thanks

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, the topic details are less of an issue than being evasive. I don't understand this, but I think it is a form of keeping control- from childhood. His FOO uses a passive aggressive communications style which is less than straightforward. I wouldn't call it dishonest in what would be considered unethical. They are actually ethical people. It is more about avoiding the question or giving an answer that doesn't answer it as a means of keeping distant, control ( don't show your cards) , or some kind of power ( my H sees questions as a form of attack and so not answering is a way of not giving in).

I don't even think they are aware of this, it is just that they tend to be passive and not communicate directly.

For me, a question is just that, a question. When asked a question, the two choices which would seem to make sense to me in an honest relationship are to answer it, or say that you don't wish to answer it. Either answer reflects the choice. So, when I asked my H a question, and got the "answer that doesn't really answer the question", it just felt a bit icky to me.

What I addressed was the style. I accept that we have different styles, but I wish for a more direct communication. This isn't easy between two people who grew up with a co-dependent and walking on eggshells style of communicating in our families. However, I am trying to communicate that what I wish for is to just be direct and honest, either way. If he had said " I don't wish to answer that", then I would have had to accept that. For him to say that, he would have had to take the risk that I didn't like the answer, but instead, he "walked on eggshells" on that one. I didn't get angry, but I did point out that I wished for more direct communication in this relationship.

After I didn't respond to his initial distress by backing down or getting upset, he did actually get what I was talking about. Yes, he gave me the honest answer, but the discussion was more about the evasiveness in communication than the actual topic. I guess now it is up to him to see if he wants to try to be more direct in communicating, so we shall see how that goes.

It sounds like a lot over a small question, but it is a pervasive issue, so I addressed it. This is also a result of me attempting to not be afraid to speak up.

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy,

Did we marry the same guy or what? The more I learn about BPD, the more I think that some of these behavioral clusters are like cookie cutters. They stamp out the same gingerbread figures, even though they're made out of different dough. (This metaphor is making me feel like baking on this rainy day. Woohoo! California rain!)

Good for you to ask for clarification about his evasiveness.    I was going to write "confront" but as we all know, that doesn't go over well with pwBPD.

My husband does this evasive behavior too. It's maddening. Sometimes I can ask him a question and all I get is silence. I've mostly eliminated this response though my persistence. He knows if I really want to know, I'm not going to let him get away without an answer. And, like you said, he can always say that he doesn't want to answer.

Like your husband, he will say I'm "attacking" him and actually it will turn into an attack if he continues being evasive and dishonest. (My previous boyfriend defined this behavior as dishonesty through omission. And I think that's valid.) It's ironic because some of my husband's complaints will then turn into "you're not treating me like a human being."

It's incredibly invalidating to me because to ask a question and to be met with silence is, to me, exactly like not treating someone "like a human being." I'm fine with my questions not being answered if he will admit he doesn't want to answer them, but it's infuriating for him to act as though I haven't said a word when I'm looking into his eyes and waiting for a response. Fortunately, I haven't experienced this pattern for quite some time.

And I'm totally in agreement that those of us who grew up in highly dysfunctional families have no blueprint for healthy romantic love. Lust wears off quickly, especially the older we get.

I feel like, for the first time in my entire life, that I truly love myself, with all my flaws. My internal dialogue is no longer critical, it's helpful and supportive. And I give myself lots of "atta girl" praise and appreciation. How different my life would have been if I had learned this as a young child! But I'm glad I'm a friend to myself now.

[Grey Kitty]

What I addressed was the style. I accept that we have different styles, but I wish for a more direct communication. This isn't easy between two people who grew up with a co-dependent and walking on eggshells style of communicating in our families. However, I am trying to communicate that what I wish for is to just be direct and honest, either way. If he had said " I don't wish to answer that", then I would have had to accept that.

Yes, they are two different communication styles. No, they are not equally effective or healthy. Good job nudging it toward being more direct and vulnerable.

I'm thinking that when people use different styles and don't even realize they are using different styles, that is when things can really go wrong!

Sometimes I can ask him a question and all I get is silence.

Been there done that. Answered a question with silence, that is. Mostly during the phase of my relationship where there was still verbal/emotional abuse present, and it usually went like this:

Spouse: "Loaded question about a challenging topic?"

Me: (thinking) Uh-oh, this is dangerous territory. I really feel one thing about this, but if I say it, she's gonna blow up at me and we're going to go down this terrible rabbit hole where she says, then I say, then she says, then I say... .Is there anything I can say safely to diffuse this situation, something I can do which won't trigger an explosion... .maybe I could talk about "X" ... .no, what about "Y" ... .not really. Then there is "Z". "Z" is an interesting idea, I wonder about... .

And by that time, a minute has already gone by, and pretty soon I've even forgotten the question entirely.

In other words:

Me: <silence>

... .Now, I'm not saying that either of you are that verbally abusive to your respective spice, however I do suspect that your respective spice are just as terrified of what they are being asked to answer about as I was... .and may well go through a similar process of freezing, worrying, and finally getting distracted and forgetting to answer.

It may be a lot easier to be compassionate in response if you suspect that is what is going on, instead of an effort to deceive you.

[Notwendy]

GK I think you are correct about the fear. Growing up, I was terrified of my mother and for years, terrified of my H and his anger. Ironically, now I can see where my mother is actually scared of me, and so is my H scared of my directiveness. This isn't a new trait- it is who I am. Growing up, as a kid, and teen, I didn't want to "play games" with people.

Yes, I would dearly love to be treated like I am something special- at least for a little while some of the time, by a Prince Charming. But I think Cat and I are similar in that although we would like that, we aren't likely to attract that kind of guy.

My mother attracts this kind of man. Men who want to treat her like she is the greatest thing on earth flock to her like bees to honey.

Me? I didn't want to role model her. Yes, I had dresses and could dress up, but didn't like it. It wasn't my comfort zone. You'd more likely find me on a horse, or at camp cleaning animal stalls. I liked guys, some liked me, but often, the guys who I might wish would like me were interested in other girls. I was their best friend. Just like the Taylor Swift song- "you belong with me".

The good side to this was that, if I had a boyfriend, it grew out of that friendship, and so, I remember that the guys I did date were also good friends of mine and that is a happy memory.

I really wanted this with my husband. Sometimes the Facebook posts " My husband is my best friend" make me very sad.( I know some FB posts aren't the truth, but it's a nice thought)  I guess I wanted to believe it was possible so much that I was willing to overlook our issues, or, my H seemed as if it was possible. But a value to me in a friendship is trust and being open.

I suspect this is why my H gets jealous when I am with my old childhood friends. Those friendships were based on being direct with each other. So even if they are not romantic relationships, I think my H can see the difference in my comfort level when people are being direct with me. I wish I could have this with him.

So while if Jake Gyllenhaal walked into my house, that would get my attention, what really means a lot  to me in a relationship is being friends, communication, and trust. This is why I take a stand for it.

[Cat Familiar]

That is a really good point, Grey Kitty. It never occurred to me that his ignoring my question might be out of fear. It seems so ludicrous, but he has told me at times that he's afraid of me, which really seems preposterous.

He outweighs me by at least 70 pounds and I'm so incredibly polite and inoffensive. (I've learned that from living with three pwBPDs).

However, when I do share with my friends, I'm completely candid and I have a very sardonic sense of humor. Even in the midst of an argument, I've always held back, and when he has claimed that I've "attacked" him, I've often thought, if you only knew what I was thinking and what I could say, no holds barred. This is nothing, I could go all MMA verbally on you.

[Notwendy]

My H says that about me. If I am being direct, he says I am attacking him. Even if it isn't something that could be considered an attack, like "what time are you coming home for dinner?" if not said in the right tone.

I agree with the fear concept. I think he hides himself. I don't know why. All I wanted was to know him better. We don't socialize together much and he avoids it. When we do, I am amazed at how different his social persona is. Although I tend to be polite in company, I am basically the same person. With friends who have known me since I was a kid, they know me so well that if I did have a different persona, they'd wonder who I was.

There is a lot to read about the false self. How sad. I don't think I had a false self, I was just not able to honor my real self and feelings - growing up in a FOO with a pwBPD. I didn't feel I was hiding from others.

When it comes to boundaries, I have felt that my H has super distant and tight ones. Some others have looser ones- that was me. I have better boundaries now. I have learned to be aware of my H's and accept that this is his comfort zone. But I still push for directness.