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Author Topic: Ambush (or why not ruin a good day for no reason?)  (Read 833 times)
flourdust
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« on: November 14, 2015, 08:38:48 PM »

My BPDw and I have had a pretty good week. I had a major project at work that had to get done, and she respected that. Even with D10 getting sick with strep throat and BPDw feeling under the weather, she kept it together. We got along, were respectful of each other, and even had a pleasant evening watching TV together. (Something we haven't been able to pull off in about a month.) There was even some physical affection and joking, and we had some productive chats to plan for the holidays.

To cap off a perfectly pleasant day, my wife is getting ready to go out for karaoke with friends, and I'm fixing dinner for D10 and myself. W approaches me and, out of the blue, begins a rambly speech about how we've been getting along, and it's been a very hard week, and she's been working hard to make it a good one... .

Around this point, I interjected that I had noticed and appreciated that, and she acknowledged this.

And then she went on to say that despite all of that, I had to know that none of our issues were fixed, and she still had 40 unresolved conversations to have with me.

Now I'm tensing up. I made a half-assed attempt to validate this, then said I wasn't going to have 40 conversations, and it was more productive to let go of things. She started to get agitated. I tried to deflect by saying we should talk about this with our MC. Then she demanded to know if I was only willing to talk about our communication problems with our MC, because that wasn't going to work -- there were too many things to cover. This was going downhill fast, and I think I said something about we needed to use the MC to work on communication, because we weren't able to do it ourselves. By this point, she was shrieking at me, so I grabbed the dinner and retreated to the basement where D10 was waiting. She screamed after me for a while, but I shut the door so we didn't have to hear her.

Obviously, I could have handled that better -- although I don't know if it would have led to a different outcome. But I just felt myself getting so irritated. We were getting along. We were able to talk to each other about concrete things and make mutually agreeable plans. It felt like she just had an impulse to sabotage it.

Why does this happen? It's bad enough when she explodes over trivia or misunderstandings or not getting the answers she wants to her trick questions, but why does she walk up to me and pull her own trigger like a grenade with legs?
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2015, 11:02:37 PM »

Hi flour dust, I am sorry you are experiencing that.   I don't have any answers for you but I can share with you some wisdom my former sponsor shared with me about alcoholics: they drink, that's what they do. I think that could probably be transferred over to borderlines, they behave in a borderline way. My own therapist told me this about my dad, a narcissist will remain a narcissist without treatment.

Your wife is not in individual therapy, correct?
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 08:01:15 AM »

I dunno flourdust it sounds like you might have an extinction burst going on?   I remember that you said it's been about three months since you started enforcing boundaries and that your wife is doing DBT therapy.   Sorry I don't remember how long your wife has been doing DBT.

according to the experts when you try to implement boundaries you will most likely see an increase in bad behavior because the BPD sufferer isn't getting the response they expect. They become confused and frustrated. You've changed the rules by not giving your typical response. They will increase their bad behavior to try to get the response they are used to.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

that's the link you want.

extinction bursts are frantic attempts to go back to old familiar behaviors and to get YOU to go back to old familiar behaviors.   I lived through some horrible ones,   except I didn't know what they were.   I only learned after the fact.       Odd how similar some of our experiences are.   I also heard a lot of we need to discuss our r/s problems, you aren't doing enough to fix them,   once she said to me it's not enough for you to say you understand how I feel you need to do something about how I feel.   for the record I didn't respond to that I just let it hang there in the air, hoping it would eventually occur to her it sounds ridiculous.   She wanted to give me a lot of responsibility for things that weren't mine and every time I sidestepped it frustrated her and she kept upping the ante, trying to get a response.   

Grey Kitty said this in another thread and I am going to borrow it: (thank you Grey Kitty)

Excerpt
NOBODY wants to deal with a dysregulation. Much of the work on the staying board is to learn ways of interacting with a pwBPD that are less likely to cause one--not being invalidating (which can directly set off one). Also being more validating in general, which will long-term reduce the frequency and severity of dysregulations. All of which is very hard and very important work for these relationships.

GK is talking about the flip side of the coin.   When a dysregulation isn't going on, how being generally more validating can reduce the frequency and severity.    Looking back with 20/20 hindsight I wasn't very good at validating.  I'm still not very good at it.  I do attempt it more when things are calm and quiet.   

Why does this happen?

I think its the maladaptive coping traits.   the only knowing one way to get a certain result.    and the emotional immaturity.

my two cents.

ducks
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 08:14:17 AM »

 

Flourdust,

I'm not totally up to speed on your story... .but I'm going to agree with Babyducks and my reaction to this is extinction burst.

Let it go... .focus on what you could do better... ."the theory" of what you could do better.

I'm not saying you were wrong...

I'm a good, better, best guy...


I think you were doing ok... .but at some point you switched to "frontal assault" and directly said "no I'm not going to have 40 conversations... "  Debatable if that was right time for that.

I would recommend you stay on the flank... .validate... .stay a bit vague on exactly what you will do... .and send action items over to her.

Big points to make... .

1.  You hear her... .

2.  You support and empathize with her... .

3.  You encourage her to take care of herself... .

These are here desires... .so... .make it about her... .it's ok.

At some point you will need to take action... .

Get a sand timer, one of those you can flip over and the sand runs out... .flip it again... and get another minute.

That is the talking stick.  You pass it back and forth... taking equal turns.

Get an alarm timer... digital. 

Try 15 minutes to start with... .

"Honey... .I'm going to be able to focus on what you have to say for 15 minutes... I want to understand what you want to communicate to me"

Your 1 minute times are focused on active listening... .confirming what you hear... .NO REBUTTAL... .

If you can post results here... .I think we can give you some nudges and guidance.

My impression from reading Babyducks posts is that she has been a bit more successful in keepting talks short... than I have.  I tend to think that things are going ok... .so keep talking... .  It will turn south... .trust me.

Babyducks,

Any other strategies for keeping it short... .and keeping it FOCUSED... .  Focus is critical... .but it is their issue they are bringing to the table.

FF
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 09:23:18 AM »

Not necessarily related, but here's a gem from this morning. We were trying to plan the day. She was planning to go to a college alumni luncheon and had put it on our shared calendar, but it didn't sync properly with my phone, so I never saw it. And she hadn't mentioned it to me.

So, we were trying to make last-minute plans to figure out who was going to be where, and she was frustrated. She also didn't like that I wasn't willing to drop my own plans to chauffeur her around all day, when she's perfectly capable of driving herself. (She does tend to freak out when the conditions are dark or stormy, but it's a sunny, calm day.)

At one point, she circled back to the calendar failure issue, and said, "And I've already apologized for this 16 times and been incredibly contrite."

Now, none of this had actually happened in the real world, and I mentioned that I didn't recall any apologies. (Normally, I let this sort of thing go, but I was bemused and decided to poke the bear to see what would happen.)

She said, "Well, you made me feel that I had to apologize a lot."

I just said "I don't make your feelings," and dropped it. Classic example of feelings becoming facts.

-----

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. My wife is in individual therapy as well as DBT. She's been in DBT for six months, and I haven't noticed much impact in her relationship with me. She claims all sorts of success, but her examples are how she's been more effective in other relationships (friendships, work). Yay, I suppose.

I have certainly been experiencing a negative reaction to my boundaries -- extinction bursts or not, it's been unpleasant. She's very unhappy that I won't spend hours and hours debating our problems, and even more so that I won't take responsibility and apologize for them just to end the verbal torture. What babyducks described about her conversations with her partner sound very familiar.

I think FF is generally right, too, that my mistake was to engage too much. I probably should have just said less. "I hear what you're saying" without throwing in counter-arguments, etc. It's something that I'm sometimes better at than others. It can help reduce the chance of dysregulation, but it's frustrating to me, because it means I don't get to express my own feelings and opinions.
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 10:00:41 AM »

flourdust,

What I hear in your posts is that you are so frustrated and irritated with your wife and that you've been putting aside your feelings and trying to support her and that you're emotionally exhausted. I totally get it. Living with a pwBPD is not for the faint of heart.

Her DBT therapy sounds like it is progressing at a glacial speed and you're not seeing any results in your communications with her and it's hard to be continually supportive when there's so little progress.

Yep. I'm totally with you on all of that. Fortunately my husband has been on a week long vacation and I got a wonderful stay-cation and I fell much more rested and renewed and ready to deal with the BPD monster when it rears its ugly head.

I hope you can find time to take care of yourself and do something you enjoy to recharge your batteries. We need batteries on steroids to deal with our BPD spouses.   

Cat
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 10:02:57 AM »

I have certainly been experiencing a negative reaction to my boundaries -- extinction bursts or not, it's been unpleasant. She's very unhappy that I won't spend hours and hours debating our problems, and even more so that I won't take responsibility and apologize for them just to end the verbal torture. What babyducks described about her conversations with her partner sound very familiar.

I think FF is generally right, too, that my mistake was to engage too much. I probably should have just said less. "I hear what you're saying" without throwing in counter-arguments, etc. It's something that I'm sometimes better at than others. It can help reduce the chance of dysregulation, but it's frustrating to me, because it means I don't get to express my own feelings and opinions.

Lots of times I bite down on a topic thinking it was going to go somewhere... .  and where it went was usually directly into her wheelhouse.   Not a place to be spending a great deal of time.     From time to time my partner believes I am a horrible communicator ... .   and I get sucked into trying subconsciously to prove that wrong.    I am not a horrible communicator.  I am probably a fair to midland communicator like most of us.  

I listen once.   I communicate I have heard her message more than once,... .because not being listened too it a huge trigger for my partner.     I am much better with a general SET than with a simple validation.  I SET a lot.

 

My SETs typically look like this.   "Yes I understand XYZ.   I sure get why XYZ would be important.   Here is what would work for me.   What do you think?"

If I hear "you never want to discuss our problems"   I tend to agree in moderation.   "I don't feel there is anything productive to be said right now."  

I try to dial down the level of the rhetoric coming at me, if it is coming at me warp nine hair on fire I try to return warp 7,... . not meet her energy with an equal amount of energy.

ducks
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 10:14:28 AM »

Lots of times I bite down on a topic thinking it was going to go somewhere... .  and where it went was usually directly into her wheelhouse.   Not a place to be spending a great deal of time.     From time to time my partner believes I am a horrible communicator ... .   and I get sucked into trying subconsciously to prove that wrong.    I am not a horrible communicator.  I am probably a fair to midland communicator like most of us.  

If I hear "you never want to discuss our problems"   I tend to agree in moderation.   "I don't feel there is anything productive to be said right now."  

I had to laugh, reading my partner believes I am a horrible communicator when ducks, you're someone I look to for incisive understanding. I, too, get the "bad communicator" label from my partner. I take it with a grain of salt because so many people in my life have told me the opposite. BPD is like another language and I'll admit I'm a novice as far as speaking it fluently.

It's so easy to invalidate them and though there are many patterns that are taught in the Lessons, being able to do them, in real time, without them sounding rote and mechanical is challenging for me. Part of that is that my husband is an attorney and he is very attentive to language and if I sound awkward, it is a  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) that I'm up to no good. 
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 10:23:39 AM »

thanks Cat.   

typically I am a bad communicator when she is in a panic, fearful of being hurt and I am not responding to that.   

it's a balancing act of when do I help with soothing and when do I allow her to self soothe and I don't always get that right.
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 10:59:50 AM »

Fd, how about medication?

Generally it takes 7 years of individual therapy to treat a personality disorder. It's going to be awhile. Do you trust her therapist?
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 11:11:17 AM »

flourdust,

What I hear in your posts is that you are so frustrated and irritated with your wife and that you've been putting aside your feelings and trying to support her and that you're emotionally exhausted. I totally get it. Living with a pwBPD is not for the faint of heart.

Her DBT therapy sounds like it is progressing at a glacial speed and you're not seeing any results in your communications with her and it's hard to be continually supportive when there's so little progress.

Yep. I'm totally with you on all of that. Fortunately my husband has been on a week long vacation and I got a wonderful stay-cation and I fell much more rested and renewed and ready to deal with the BPD monster when it rears its ugly head.

I hope you can find time to take care of yourself and do something you enjoy to recharge your batteries. We need batteries on steroids to deal with our BPD spouses. 

Right on target! (Or exceptionally good validation of me -- either way, I'll take it.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) )

She is planning on four days away in December. I'm looking forward to it.

I am also a horrible communicator. This must be a badge of honor we nons all wear.  I'm also struggling with validating while not sounding like I'm reading from a manual. ("Step 1. Make the empathetic statement. Step 2. Use compassionate word."

Unicorn -- I think I addressed your question on meds in my last thread a few days ago. As for trusting her therapist, I have no idea. I certainly don't feel I can hang around for seven years unless there is steady progress.
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 11:19:49 AM »

FD may I suggest you talk to her therapist and ask him what his philosophy is on treating personality disorders and how long he thinks it will take?

Also it might take 7 years, so that is something to think about. You said she's only been in therapy for 1 year? At least she is in therapy , some pwBPD aren't in therapy at all.

I apologize I forgot about the meds question.
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 11:44:05 AM »

I certainly don't feel I can hang around for seven years unless there is steady progress.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. People with BPD are not all the same just as nons are not all the same. There is no way to set a specific time frame for "cured". You are both working on yourselves, individually and together. That's progress.  

Kuddos to you for your hard work flourdust.
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2015, 11:59:59 AM »

I have never heard 7 years and don't find that to be accurate.  My partner has made significant progress over the last 2 years and has been sober from drugs and gambling for over a year.  He has steady employment and we have a fairly happy and fulfilling relationship.  I had to work to change my reactions to some of his behaviors and it has had a dramatic effect.  He still acts out occasionally, but he sees it now and is able to address it.  If you had asked me 3 years ago if we would be where we are now, I wouldn't have believed it.

 
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2015, 05:42:27 PM »

Well, today has been "fun." After this morning's little incident about the calendar, we agreed that she'd go to her luncheon on her own, and I would pick her up and take her with me to my appointment to pick out new glasses. Then I'd drive her back to the restaurant to pick up her car. No, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but she has a blizzard of excuses why she doesn't want to drive, and I finally compromised on this. At least I didn't have to drive her everywhere today.

Everything went fine until we were heading back to drop her off at her car. I was coming up on a stopped car a little fast and hit the brakes fairly hard. It wasn't a screeching, slam-to-a-stop, but still noticeable. She freaked out, as she often does when that happens. I'm not sure if this is BPD or sensory overload from her TBI, or just her own hysterical nature.

My mind is racing. The last time this happened was a few months ago, on my birthday. Here's my journal from that incident:




After dinner, we were driving and I slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting pedestrians. W started screaming and freaking out. I said "it's ok" and she screamed it's not ok, how dare I say it's ok. I tried to say something to calm her down but couldn't think straight and was still driving. Eventually we had a heated exchange where we both agreed to shut up. At home, W had a reasonable-sounding suggestion that I should have asked if everyone was ok and pulled over. Sounds reasonable, but I've always found that her "scripts" I'm supposed to follow don't actually work. I told her it was a good suggestion and would try to remember it and she got more and more pissed because she wanted to keep going and I wanted to stop. She ended up shrieking at me at the top of her lungs, and I left to take a break. I came back and let her lecture me for a while, mostly practicing medium chill. She wasn't happy but didn't start screaming again.




So, that was then. Today, I said "Are you OK?" She said no. I offered to pull over, and she agreed. It was a busy street, and I got the car partly into a space, with traffic still whizzing bye. She was mumbling and moaning and mostly incoherent, and I talked to her for a few seconds, saying things were fine. But I didn't feel safe with the car there, so I pulled back out into traffic. Now she started to get upset. We were only a few blocks from her car, but she didn't like that I hadn't pulled over completely.

By the time we got to her car, she was in full screaming meltdown, giving me the full cross-examination on why I had asked if everyone was OK if I didn't care, why I had offered to pull over when I didn't intend to stay, how we could possibly abandon her with her car when she was unsafe to drive, etc. I said we'd stay with her until she calmed herself, but she got more and more revved up and was becoming abusive. D10 was also starting to yell at her to stop. I stepped out of the car to cool down. D10 came out and said she urgently needed the bathroom. I was fed up, and done pampering BPDw. I told her to get out of the car, and we'd see her at home when she was ready. She yelled that D10 was smirking at her, which upset D10 even more, and I was feeling pretty triggered, so I told BPDw that she was imagining things (I guess I'll give myself points for not calling her delusional), and we drove away.

That was three hours ago. She's been in her car in the restaurant parking lot ever since. I did call her a few minutes ago to see if she was ready to come home, but she wanted to start up the third degree again, called me names, and hung up on me. So I'm left to reassure D10 that mommy will come home, she always comes home, she's just still upset, etc.

Can't wait for tonight. I guess I'd better start strategizing for how to handle the dysregulation now.
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2015, 07:24:38 PM »

That situation sounds unnerving and unsafe for everyone involved including your daughter. Walking away when things continued to escalate was a good call. Having strong boundaries around unsafe behaviors are important. I'm not an expert or licensed professional however the hysterics sound a lot like HPD traits I've read about.

Would it be fair to set a boundary for yourself to drive separately till she can practice being a safe passenger? If she can drive safely, conquering this fear could be empowering for her. If you always give into demands to drive her then is she missing out on this "life lesson?"

Have you had a chance to read about the DEARMAN technique? It's here: COMMUNICATION: D.E.A.R.M.A.N. technique

This technique is helpful for times when we want or need to say no. It can also be really helpful when we want to set or enforce boundaries.
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« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2015, 07:35:28 AM »

how are you doing today flourdust?
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2015, 09:20:42 AM »

So, to wrap up yesterday's story... .

D was getting distraught that her mother hadn't come home (after 3 hours) and texted her. I figured I'd better jump into this, so I called W. I asked her when she was coming home. She wanted to blame me for D texting her and demanded to know why I let her do that. (Because I'm not watching her 24/7, and I didn't snatch her phone out of her hands?) As is often the case, once she's got a line of accusatory questioning in her jaws, she won't let it go. I tried to return to suggesting she come home when ready, and she called me names and hung up.

She did eventually come home, but not before texting D that I had "made it clear she's not allowed home." D had been upset at her mother earlier, then anxious about her abandoning us, and now she flipped to blaming me. She said she wanted to eat dinner with W, and I should eat somewhere else. W came home and approved of this plan. I agreed.

After putting D to bed, I really wasn't in the mood to sit and validate W, and I knew I couldn't tell her what I really thought about her behavior. (The words "unacceptable," "immature," and "ridiculous" come to mind.) So I told W I was going to watch a movie and didn't want to talk tonight. I said we should talk about these "issues" either with our MC or, as her DBT clinic had suggested, in a family session with her therapist. She interpreted that as my refusing to talk at all without a counselor present. Once she has her interpretation set, there's no point in trying to JADE it. I left the room, and she blew up and yelled after me for several minutes. The usual stuff -- don't sleep here tonight, I'll get a lawyer, you're an a***hole, I'll just keep yelling at you even though you're not here, etc. I slept in the guest room.

She was still in bed this morning while I got D up, made her breakfast, and took her to school. She then phoned me because she couldn't find her car keys and wanted to accuse me of taking them. Now I'm at work, AKA my happy place.




Suzn, there's no question she has histrionic traits -- she's always been excessively emotional and prone to loud outbursts and "freak-outs" over any little thing.

I don't think a boundary where I don't drive her at all will work. I kind of feel that if I start cordoning off all the areas where she has outbursts, there'll be nowhere left for her to live.  Smiling (click to insert in post) These car meltdowns are fairly rare. It's more common that she picks a fight in the car and won't shut up, though I've gotten better at refusing to engage when that happens.

Thank you for the tip on DEARMAN -- I'll review it.

I'm reflecting on my own behavior this morning. She sustains anger for a long time. She can be angry at me for hours or days after a meltdown. It's almost unheard of that she apologizes for one of these or recognizes her own fault. Is it fair for me to avoid talking to her when she's in this mood? Rationally, I can understand that a husband and wife should be able to talk about problems, but we've had so many hundreds of these chats, and they never "solve" anything, even when they don't end in screaming. Do I need to put up with these to be "fair" or is it OK for me to just decide I'm not going to be part of them?
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 10:03:44 AM »

She sustains anger for a long time. She can be angry at me for hours or days after a meltdown. It's almost unheard of that she apologizes for one of these or recognizes her own fault.

I have to say that reading your updates stressed me out a little. Having to confront my uBPDw after an argument is stressful so reading that your W was in a parking lot for 3 hours, OH BOY  So sorry, but thanks for sharing.

I have the same issue. Right now, we're going on one month of no intimacy and not really communicating, other than really basic stuff. I've apologized for upsetting her weeks ago, I sent her flowers, left a card for her, but she said that she didn't receive the apology because it was insincere or those items because she's the one that suggested that flowers would have made her feel heard and understood, IF I would have sent them to her the day AFTER our argument. I don't recall her saying that, and no, I didn't send the flowers a day after our argument, but I did send her the flowers about a week after our argument, after I saw that she didn't accept my apology. She said that since she's the one that suggested those things, she didn't receive them because they didn't come from me. One of her favorite things to tell me is, "always a day late and a dollar short." I think even if I would've made those flowers magically appear on the spot, while we were arguing, she would've found something to complain about.

So, after possibly making the mistake of chasing her, I've decided to be nice but go about my business. This seems to be pissing her off so she's really cold and distant. I guess the silver lining is that when she's upset at me, she's all of a sudden really nice to our girls.

I believe she can go on like this for a long, long time. My question is, if I chase her, she may come around sooner, but I don't feel like doing that nor do I believe that's the right approach (after reading some of the lessons). If I continue like this, I think we'll go through the holidays not really speaking to each other, which is a bummer. I'm not ignoring her, I'm just not pursuing her. Should I continue the course and if so, will she come around?

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« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2015, 12:56:36 PM »

Wow, Icthelight, I have had MANY of those conversations -- heads she wins, tails you lose. It's as if she has designed tests to ensure there is absolutely no way back from the edge of the cliff.

I think you've made a smart move to "go about your business." Yes, she'll be angry, because you're no longer jumping when she pushes the same old buttons. One thing I have learned is that you have to make these choices (not to engage in the same old patterns) because they are healthier for you, not because you are trying to change her. Will she come around? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe not until a very long while has passed, and not as much as you'd like. But if what you're doing feels more consistent with your values, then you should stay the course.
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2015, 09:02:37 AM »

Day 3

I texted her to see what the plans were for dinner.




Me: I have my therapist until 6. I can bring home dinner but it will be on the late side.

Her: Is this an ask? A tell? A request? A collaborative invitation?  :)o I need a therapist in the room to answer?

Me: Let me know if you want me to bring dinner.

Her: So we're back to making the week's plans in the preceding 4 hours.  Gonna be a fun week




So much for that. I figured I'd find out when I got home if anyone was eating that night. While I was driving to my T's office, my phone rang. It was my daughter. She told me that they were going out to dinner by themselves. I said OK, have a good dinner. I was mildly annoyed that my wife had chosen to use our daughter as her spokesperson, but so be it.

Instantly, I got a text from her. As Admiral Ackbar would say, "It's a traaaaaap!"




Her: So I guess that's that. I imagine you are aware that I am here while you are on speakerphone. But I can only imagine that you had nothing you wanted to say. Or I guess, like yesterday, you have decided that you are just not going to talk with me.   And as the subjugated, I have no option but to abide.

Me: I did not know you were on the phone. I was driving. Have a good dinner.




Ah, so having D call me was a test! I was supposed to know she was lurking on speakerphone and waiting for me to say the right thing to her.

I went in to my session with my T and described all this. She said "wow, she sure likes to be the victim."

The session was productive. I talked about the meltdown on Sunday involving the car. She used the word "unacceptable" to describe her behavior. When I mentioned that I had gotten yelled at for saying "It's OK" when hitting the brakes and told that the proper words were "Is everyone OK?", she said that the word games and scripts were common with BPD. Mostly, we talked about what I could do for self-care, and how I should be structuring my life to take care of my own needs and happiness. It helped me crystallize my desire to get back to regular exercise, and I made a plan to do that.

Then, I went to a favorite pub and had a nice dinner by myself, before heading back into the lion's den. She spent most of the evening text-bombing me. I only responded once, to say I wasn't going to engage in an angry text war, and that my plan was to wash dishes and then watch TV, and she could join me if she was "in the mood for pleasant company."

At bedtime, against my better judgment, I went into the bedroom and it went about as expected.

Me: Can I turn off the light? (She leaves the bedroom light on, even when she's in bed.)

No response. I waited a little bit, then turned the light off, went into the bathroom, and got myself ready for bed. When I came back out... .

Her: Why did you ask if you could turn off the light if you weren't going to wait for an answer?

Me: (thinking... .here we go... .) I waited seven seconds, you didn't answer, so I turned it off.

Her: (the mocking tone starts now) Oooh, so seven seconds is the rule for answers... .is that one of your special rules you made up, because you make up all the rules, and you're in charge... .(and on and on)

I waited until she took a breath, then used SET. I told her I loved her and wanted her to feel better, that it was hard to feel she wasn't being listened to and having her needs met, but this sort of "talk" never went well, and we both needed sleep, so I was leaving and would see her tomorrow.

She interrupted continuously to negate and mock each SET statement, and kept an insulting monologue running at me even after I left the room. I was finding it hard to keep from laughing throughout, as she's become such a ridiculous figure.

The text-bombing continued, but I left the phone in another room, so it didn't bother me at night. One particular gem: "... .Unfortunately, just as I expected. Your boundary or self-improvement goal ensured you had nothing to apologize for. (By the way, I hadn't requested an apology, and yet you found a way to turn my words around so that I had to apologize.)"

If anyone can figure out how that text had any relationship at all to our exchange in the bedroom, I'll give you a prize!
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2015, 10:22:22 AM »

Day 3

I was finding it hard to keep from laughing throughout, as she's become such a ridiculous figure.

I know BPD is a serious illness and I am usually too stressed to think anything is funny when I am being mocked, insulted or yelled at, but lately, I have to contain myself from smiling or laughing out loud when my wife confronts me.

I forget who wrote in another thread that before a conversation they go get a cup of tea, count the sips and then excuse themselves when they've had enough saying that they're going to get a refill is funny to me. Remembering what others have said and posted here and finding so many similarities in the stories helps to keep things in perspective. So, I guess having a different perspective and knowledge helps in dealing with our pwBPD.

Day 3It helped me crystallize my desire to get back to regular exercise, and I made a plan to do that.

Very good plan. I started exercising regularly last year and I am glad I did. Strongly encourage you to do the same.

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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2015, 10:22:38 AM »

fllourdust I am sorry you are going through all this and I can totally relate to the behavior you're describing, i've seen some of it too even though I'm not married to my pwBPD and we don't have a child together.

    
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2015, 11:44:30 AM »

I think laughing (on the inside) is a very healthy reaction to some of the mind-numbing verbal games that pwBPD play. I'm so glad that I've perfected my poker face because it saves me from disclosing how funny and bizarre some of my husband's behavior can be at times. When I'm able to laugh (to myself), I know I haven't gotten sucked into the game and can appreciate myself for staying strong and trying to hold onto my objectivity. Not easy, since pwBPD are so good at needling us in our weak spots.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2015, 12:47:50 PM »

I forget who wrote in another thread that before a conversation they go get a cup of tea, count the sips and then excuse themselves when they've had enough saying that they're going to get a refill is funny to me.

Hey, that was me! I used it a few weeks back when she wanted to hold an Airing of Grievances. (Festivus is really a BPD holiday.)

Excerpt
Frank Costanza: And at the Festivus dinner, you gather your family around, and tell them all the ways they have disappointed you over the past year!

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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2015, 08:09:50 PM »

Day 4!

I only saw her briefly in the morning. She sleeps in while I get the kid up, fed, and off to school. I asked her if she could take care of dinner, and she said yes. Then I went to work. No contact while I was at work.

When I came home, she was in the kitchen. I asked her how her day had been. She said "not good." Now, one of her claims in her lengthy text bombs was that I had not asked any follow up when she told me her day was bad yesterday, so that proves I don't love her, am awful, etc. So I asked "Oh, what happened?"

And she told me, and we had a nice conversa -- HA! JUST KIDDING!

Ten loong minutes of circular arguing followed, where she beat around and around the bush, not really telling me what happened during her day, but hinting that it was bad because of her marriage, then getting pissed at me because I didn't have any follow-up questions to her vague allusions. And then she wanted to know if we were going to talk about Sunday, and I tried to deflect this until later, but she wouldn't let anything drop. I even said we could talk later, but then she needed to know if what I was going to say would be "kind and supportive" (not that SHE is kind and supportive!), and so on and so on.

I kept trying to extricate myself and even asked if I should leave the house. She said I probably should, so as I got my shoes on, she then began criticizing me for leaving and the message it sent to our daughter. Which actually got to me, so I said I wouldn't leave, but I was leaving the room. And then she said SHE was going to leave the house, and she did! (This is one of her huge BPD blind spots -- she doesn't see or care how her behavior affects anyone else, even those closest to her.)

Our daughter was playing a game on the computer and deliberately tuning this all out. I was feeling pretty angry and said so, and said I needed to calm myself down. I took some deep breaths, then finished fixing the dinner. (The usual gourmet special from my wife - canned soup, bagged salad.) We ate and started watching a TV show.

The text-bombing began. Not just me, but my daughter. Plenty of texts to my daughter about our relationship and how we treat each other, plus some self-pitying ones when D10 had put the phone down and didn't respond for 20 minutes. ("How was dinner?" "Oh, you're not answering, so I guess I screwed that up too." "Sorry dinner sucked." Plenty of text-bombs to me -- she was hungry, but should she come home, and what would happen, etc. I told her to come home and eat, and because of how we were interacting, I would stay clear of her tonight. She went on and on about how that's selfish of me, and she needs my support, and so on, but I just repeated that I was not going to engage in conflict tonight. She accused me of abandoning her, not caring, etc. It's the sort of argument that SEEMS reasonable, until I look back just a few paragraphs in my journal to remind myself that this is HER crazy.

So that's where we stand now. She's not home. I put D10 to bed. I'm going to exercise (my new commitment to self-care), and I'm prepared to sleep in the guest room again. I'm taking care of my daughter and myself. That's all I can do, and if it means the end of the marriage, so be it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2015, 05:30:20 AM »

The text-bombing began. Not just me, but my daughter. Plenty of texts to my daughter about our relationship and how we treat each other, plus some self-pitying ones when D10 had put the phone down and didn't respond for 20 minutes. ("How was dinner?" "Oh, you're not answering, so I guess I screwed that up too." "Sorry dinner sucked."

Hi flourdust,

Yikes.  Having D10 receiving text messages like this has to be very distressing.   How is D10 holding up?

Ten loong minutes of circular arguing followed, where she beat around and around the bush, not really telling me what happened during her day, but hinting that it was bad because of her marriage, then getting pissed at me because I didn't have any follow-up questions to her vague allusions. And then she wanted to know if we were going to talk about Sunday, and I tried to deflect this until later, but she wouldn't let anything drop. I even said we could talk later, but then she needed to know if what I was going to say would be "kind and supportive" (not that SHE is kind and supportive!), and so on and so on.

Would you feel comfortable giving us some specifics of what she said, so maybe we can help script a response or two to lower the level of conflict?   Do you think that might help?

'ducks
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2015, 12:12:49 PM »

The text-bombing began. Not just me, but my daughter. Plenty of texts to my daughter about our relationship and how we treat each other, plus some self-pitying ones when D10 had put the phone down and didn't respond for 20 minutes. ("How was dinner?" "Oh, you're not answering, so I guess I screwed that up too." "Sorry dinner sucked."

Hi flourdust,

Yikes.  Having D10 receiving text messages like this has to be very distressing.   How is D10 holding up?

I think she's doing about as OK as anyone could given the circumstance. She has a therapist she sees weekly who is completely up to date on what's been happening in our family, and the therapist reports that D10 is able to talk about these issues and her fears in small doses before she becomes flooded. Having her mother run off on us is something she's gotten used to, and she's more exasperated than upset by it, but the longer she stays away, the more her anxiety grows. However, last night, despite some back and forth texting, she didn't get too upset and was able to have dinner and go to bed without her mom around.

Excerpt
Ten loong minutes of circular arguing followed, where she beat around and around the bush, not really telling me what happened during her day, but hinting that it was bad because of her marriage, then getting pissed at me because I didn't have any follow-up questions to her vague allusions. And then she wanted to know if we were going to talk about Sunday, and I tried to deflect this until later, but she wouldn't let anything drop. I even said we could talk later, but then she needed to know if what I was going to say would be "kind and supportive" (not that SHE is kind and supportive!), and so on and so on.

Would you feel comfortable giving us some specifics of what she said, so maybe we can help script a response or two to lower the level of conflict?   :)o you think that might help?

I can try, but all I could do is pull out the odd phrase here and there. Let me try to give you a sense of what these conversations are like. My wife is very extroverted and talkative. She likes to talk a lot, at high speed, and to dominate a conversation. From my point of view, she often lectures or monologues. Because of the BPD, these speeches can jump erratically from topic to topic, often throwing in what (to me) sound like distorted or false claims. So, in the space of a couple of minutes, she can be complaining about her feelings of the moment, jump to her general feelings about life, imply strongly that it's my fault, bring in a few examples of things that I have done, describing them to show that I had malicious or uncaring intent behind them, tell me what my thought process was, exaggerate or downplay the frequency of something beyond all recognition, include a false or distorted memory of a past conversation or promise that I am violating, complain that I am just standing there and waiting for her to finish talking, object to my facial impression and tell me that it indicates I am showing a disrespectful emotion to her, ask me to give her a specific reason why we should still stay married, complain that I am using boundaries to control her so we can't have conversations and I don't show her support... .and so on. That's all without me getting a word in edgewise.

If I try to interrupt at any point I disagree with, she gets upset because I'm interrupting.

I obviously can't wait until it's my turn then give a huge point-by-point rebuttal (even assuming I could remember all of the points and that she would let me finish any of them without cutting me off).

I've tried general validating or picking a low-hanging fruit, practical item from her list of grievances to focus on, but she objects that I'm ignoring all the other issues she's just spewed out.

I've tried just general declamation that I'm not going to have that conversation now, or other variants (we can talk later, I don't want to have a negative conversation tonight, we should talk about these issues with our MC, etc.), but she takes those as avoidance and abandoning her to her feelings instead of helping her with them, so that makes her angry.

Generally, I go with one of the latter two options, knowing that she won't like them and might dysregulate but not seeing any better options on the table.
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2015, 07:31:34 PM »

I can try, but all I could do is pull out the odd phrase here and there. Let me try to give you a sense of what these conversations are like. My wife is very extroverted and talkative. She likes to talk a lot, at high speed, and to dominate a conversation. From my point of view, she often lectures or monologues. Because of the BPD, these speeches can jump erratically from topic to topic, often throwing in what (to me) sound like distorted or false claims. So, in the space of a couple of minutes, she can be complaining about her feelings of the moment, jump to her general feelings about life, imply strongly that it's my fault, bring in a few examples of things that I have done, describing them to show that I had malicious or uncaring intent behind them, tell me what my thought process was, exaggerate or downplay the frequency of something beyond all recognition, include a false or distorted memory of a past conversation or promise that I am violating, complain that I am just standing there and waiting for her to finish talking, object to my facial impression and tell me that it indicates I am showing a disrespectful emotion to her, ask me to give her a specific reason why we should still stay married, complain that I am using boundaries to control her so we can't have conversations and I don't show her support... .and so on. That's all without me getting a word in edgewise.

If I try to interrupt at any point I disagree with, she gets upset because I'm interrupting.

I obviously can't wait until it's my turn then give a huge point-by-point rebuttal (even assuming I could remember all of the points and that she would let me finish any of them without cutting me off).

I've tried general validating or picking a low-hanging fruit, practical item from her list of grievances to focus on, but she objects that I'm ignoring all the other issues she's just spewed out.

I've tried just general declamation that I'm not going to have that conversation now, or other variants (we can talk later, I don't want to have a negative conversation tonight, we should talk about these issues with our MC, etc.), but she takes those as avoidance and abandoning her to her feelings instead of helping her with them, so that makes her angry.

Generally, I go with one of the latter two options, knowing that she won't like them and might dysregulate but not seeing any better options on the table.

Oh my.   

I have had those conversations a couple of times myself.   My partner is bipolar 1 and BPD.   She has pressured speech.  occasional hypomania and what I like to call psychomotor overflow.   When her pressured speech is at its absolute worst I end up on the sofa curled up in a ball with my arms wrapped around my head trying to stem the flow of words.  They come out like bullets out of a machine gun.   I have a pretty vivid memory of being on the sofa curled up in the fetal position, arms wrapped over my ears while she screams at me "you have to stop hurting me like this".  the flow of ideas is so rapid and the topics so scatter shot it's like trying to grab confetti in a wind storm.   how on earth do you validate that.

well I don't.   validation doesn't normally work.  I think it's because my partner is hypomanic enough she doesn't really remember what she said.   So she doesn't understand what I am validating.   It's just more fuel for the fire.

stopping the conversation can be tricky because of what you said.   she views it as abandoning her issues.  if I leave the conversation I have to do it in a control fashion.   If abuse is coming my way, it's a non issue I just say I will not have this conversation like this.  and exit.   if it's non abusive dsyregulation.   I try to exit in a control and compassionate way.   

Here is what I mean.   My mother has Alzheimer's late stage.   She will often only pick up a couple of words in a sentence at a time and will react to tone of voice more than content.  same is true for my partner when she is maniac.   The calmer I can make my voice, the simpler the words, the slower the speech, the better chance of reaching through the emotional clutter going on inside her.   I will use her name and say ______ I don't want to fight with you.    Another barrage.   __________ I don't want to fight with you.     another barrage.  _______ I don't want to fight with you so I am leaving now and will back at 3PM. 

I have no idea what is going on in the brain chemistry of some one with this disorder but I truly believe someday they will figure out that they are actually incapable of hearing us when they are that dsyregulated.   

I don't bother with the point by point rebuttal.   That's never been fruitful for me.   positive reinforcement has paid better dividends.

I want to find a point of contact.  a place where she recognize me as some one to talk to instead of holler at... .  sometimes I do stupid stuff and wait for a pause and say do you want a glass of water. 

I am not afraid to push back.   I've told my partner point blank in the middle of a dsyregulation that this is not all about her feelings and her emotions that there are two people in the room.   

I don't like being held hostage to a rage.   So I have tried to bullet proof my own internal emotional armor.   When the words were falling on deaf ears.   They eventually stopped.

'ducks





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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2015, 07:47:39 PM »

 

I've been there too...

Ducks is solid on how to exit...

One more thing I will add... .to lessen your worry.

I'm convinced this releases pressure pressure (the words coming out)... .and my wife keeps right on going after I leave.

Near as I can figure she does calm sooner if I leave... than if I stay.

FF the scientist has stayed and used a stopwatch function of my smartphone... .I've also left... .eavesdropped... .and timed as well.  Much quicker return to baseline if you leave...

Note... .please take my word for it.  I don't plan to recreate the experiment... it wasn't fun.   

So... .you are doing your partner a favor by leaving... .

FF
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