Ambush (or why not ruin a good day for no reason?)

[flourdust]

Thanks for the responses. I think you're both probably correct. I've certainly noticed that the verbal abuse ends shortly after I remove myself from the situation. She doesn't typically lose the anger -- but given a choice between quiet seething and screaming, I'll take the seething. I don't think she views it as me doing her a favor. 

Yesterday was a quiet day. I don't see her much on Wednesdays, because she teaches religious school in the evening. There are two sessions, and D10 attends the early one. I pick her up at that time and usually see BPDw for a few minutes before the second session starts. During yesterday's break, she complained about the last several days and not being able to talk about the issues. I agreed and was preparing to leave, and she pointed out that we could talk right now. I mentioned that she had to get to her class, and she said I should take advantage of the fact that we were in a public place where she worked, so she had incentive to keep under control. (That was self-aware, albeit demonstrating her lack of consideration for me in other settings.) I said we couldn't talk tonight (she gets home past 10), and she cut me off to warn that if she wanted to, she could scream at me right now and everyone would hear about the troubles in our marriage. Now, this threat doesn't bother me -- if she wants to let loose and expose herself to everyone, then let's get the party started! Anyway, she stalked off while I was trying to say that we could talk tomorrow night.

I'm figuring that we will have a talk tonight. Here's generally how I see it going -- assuming that I can keep my own emotions and words in check and not let my buttons be pushed.

She'll have a long monologue about how awful I have been, probably her interpretation of the events of Sunday (when she completely dysregulated and sat alone in her car for three hours). I will listen without engaging and acknowledge her view. I will say that I have a different take on things and tell her why I think her behavior was unacceptable -- she has a histrionic startle reflex, and I accept that a stimulus like sudden hard braking will cause her to freak out. But once she was past the startle, she turned to aggressive verbal abuse, and then hours of dysregulation -- that's all HER, and that's up to her to fix.

I'm not trying to validate there. I'm not going to try to use especially inflammatory language, but I'm going to tell her what I didn't like about her behavior and that I want that to change.

My expectation is that she won't take it well -- OK, that's a serious understatement. I figure she'll pull out anything from her grab bag of reactions -- screaming, threats, storming off, driving away, whatever. I accept that, and I won't try to manage it.

There's also the distinct possibility that we'll never even have that conversation. She often claims to want to start a conversation, but instead gets derailed into an aggressive conversation-about-the-conversation. So, for example, she'll say that she's frustrated that she hasn't been able to talk to me about Issue A, but instead of then addressing Issue A, she'll want to attack me on why I haven't let her talk about Issue A, and have a meltdown about that. In the past, I used to try to get in there to try to get her back to the topic she wanted to talk about. That's like wrestling a cat into a bag. You might eventually succeed, but by the time the cat is in the bag, you and the cat aren't on speaking terms, and you're covered with scratches.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Approach her with coffee, tea... .water... and say that you have 15 minutes (make sure you have something else to do) to talk if there is anything you want to talk about.  

Don't bolt right at 15 minutes but start wrapping it up.

Let her know you need to end it but will be available later.

Leave the car thing alone... .if she brings it up... .let you know you support her... ."how can I emotionally support you while you address this"  (again... some vagueness there).


I get the misdirection thing... .play along some... but don't get bogged down.

real incident from about 1.5 months ago.

FF wife:  "Hey... I want to talk to you about the schedule for D5 to switch schools"

Me:  "Sure... .let me grab something for us to drink and we can work through it"  

Various pleasantries... .it's going well... I'm focused... .

FF wife:  "So... .when are you going to start applying for jobs... ."

me:  "I don't understand the question... " (alarm bells going off... I have been applying and interviewing)

ff wife:  "you need to get a job.  What do you do with your time"

me:  "Honey... I'm confused... .I'm focused and prepared to talk about solutions for D5s schooling.  That's what I'm available to talk about."

ff wife:  "Ohhh... .don't you worry... we'll get to that... ." (it was a hissing statement)

me:  "I'm not able to have a conversation like this.  Let me know when you want to discuss D5"  Walked out of room... .I stayed calm.  

She flung a few words but calmed quickly

Next few days I asked if there was "anything" she wanted to talk about.  No bites... .so I didn't push it.

We then came to agreement on when D5 was going to switch schools (we are moving).

Then... one day prior she told me how it was going to happen (different than plan).  I simply said no, that didn't work.

She flopped around for day or two trying to bully me and then she presented with a solution based on when D5 could get in a new program.  I accepted the solution, D5 loves the program... .all is well.

For me... .I don't want to instantly walk away... .but once it is obvious that we are not focused on solutions... .I look for a way to leave the conversation.

FF

[flourdust]

Oh, I will leave the conversation if it melts down. But, I'm not going into it with a plan to deflect her and keep my own thoughts bottled up. If we talk about Sunday, I'm going to let her know what I thought about her behavior. I accept that she won't like it and won't handle it well. I'm willing to live with the consequences.

[Suzn]

I don't think you should avoid the issue of being out of control in the vehicle at all. This has been a pattern that makes you very uncomfortable, from everything you said in this thread. As you T put it, unacceptable.

It's understandable setting a boundary where she never rides in the car with you might be a little bit inconvenient on occasions where are you all riding together obviously. However, saying that you don't want to corral her because of her outbursts there then going on to say that if you corralled her everywhere she has outburst, she'd have nowhere to go... .first of all this isn't an all or nothing situation. Right now we are just talking about in the car.

One situation at a time.

Are you saving her from being corralled if she can't control herself? This would be a change would it not be? Nothing changes without changes. Most people don't make changes until they get too uncomfortable to deal with the status quo.

Using DEARMAN technique for this you can explain your boundary... .how can you use DEARMAN to say something like... .hey the next time you start getting out of control in the car I'm dropping you at the nearest convenience store and you're taking a cab from there, you and our daughters life is too important to me to do otherwise. A strong boundary around this is warranted.  

As you explain here about her behavior at the school, she CAN control herself. Interesting, she knows she can't get away with that behavior at her job.

She was responsible for calming herself down the other day when she was sitting in the car for 3 or 4 hours, and that's okay, she should be commended for that.  

[flourdust]

I see what you're saying, Suzn. It's probably a good suggestion for a boundary, but I think it's one I can't enforce. And if I can't enforce it, then it's a bad idea to implement it, yes?

For example, we have an seven hour drive coming up to go visit our families for Thanksgiving. I can't drop her off somewhere in the middle of nowhere. And she's smart enough to know this trip is coming up and either challenge me on this boundary right away or try to test it before we even get in the car next week.

I don't know that I have a solution I can implement regarding this issue. I feel I can just tell her about my displeasure and pin it on her choices.

[Suzn]

Ok, what about the other way around? You'll hand her the keys and take a cab? These are only examples. You get to choose what you're comfortable with. Whatever boundary you choose, live it.

If it were me, I would welcome a test prior to a seven hour drive. Do you trust yourself to live your boundaries?

It may help to just work up a conversation privately with yourself using the DEARMAN technique and just see what feels comfortable and feels right for you.

[flourdust]

Fair enough. I'll need to think about that.

I created my first two boundaries a few months ago -- I won't be screamed at, and I won't be called names. I've been doing very well at enforcing them, despite almost continuous pushback from my wife.

[Suzn]

Expect push back, expect extinction bursts. Change is not easy, we expect it from our spouses we must expected from ourselves. Or in my case a parent adult child relationship, nevertheless... .

I've had to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. It may help to see this situation with your wife and your self as part of a bigger process. You are working on yourself and setting boundaries, your wife, controlling her urges to rage. You say she complains that you're trying to control her with boundaries, boundaries are healthy. What would you imagine her T saying if she were to complain to her T that you are trying to control her with boundaries? Would it be possible that the T would recognize that you are working on your side of the street and hold her accountable for being a boundary buster and possibly help her with some coping skills to help her cope with her feelings of anger?

The process all fits together. If not immediately, eventually.

Have you had a chance to read about extinction bursts?

[flourdust]

I have read about extinction bursts. Certainly, I experienced things getting worse since I put boundaries into place. Unfortunately, the articles don't give me a timeline for when they end, which is really what I need to know. 

Actually, after several weeks of nonstop harassment about my boundaries -- telling me I was doing them wrong, that they were hurtful to her, that she was going to impose retaliatory boundaries to punish me, and so on -- she admitted in MC that her T had "smacked her down hard" about my boundaries. Her T told her that I was entitled to have any boundaries I wanted, but I would have to live with the consequences of them. I agreed with that completely. It might have slowed down her frontal assault on the boundaries, but she still pushes me on them.

[formflier]

  My story:  Not saying I did this right, but I did enforce a boundary. We are in the middle of a multi day driving trip in a 15 passenger van.  I was driving, we were in Atlanta during high traffic.  The drive was moderately stressful   My wife starts talking about a supposed woman that I am in love with.  I asked to discuss it later.  Word games started:  "Why, is the truth making you uncomfortable?" I would come back with "I need your help to drive safely.  Can you look behind you to make sure the lane is clear." She obviously took this as a challenged and pressed harder on the woman thing.  It pushed a button with me and I got pissed (not good). I announced to the entire van that I would not be spoken to like this and pulled off the road.  In all honestly I "jerked" the van off to an exit ramp.  Pulled into a McDonald's, took the keys and said I was going for a walk to calm down. She exclaimed "So you are just going to leave us here, "  Me:  "yes", I walked for 10-15 minutes and came back to the van.  I opened the door and asked my wife to come inside and sort this out.  If my memory serves me correctly she initially refused so I went inside and got something to drink and waited.  She came in and we talked. Again this was early in my BPD journey, I did a lot wrong here. "I will not keep going on this trip with you if you are going to run your mouth like that, " (or something very similar is what I said) I let her know we were close the the airport, she could fly home, or I could fly home, or we could ride together and she could not "run her mouth". Probably 15 minutes of talking/arguing and we drove on down the road.  To her credit she kept it under control for rest of the trip. I would do the same thing today, but likely I would handle it better.  That would be pulling off sooner and staying more centered, calm and all that.  Waiting till your button is pushed is bad, very bad. Later:  We were on a separate trip and had driven separate cars.  There was a time when I would arrange us to drive separately, so I could have an escape vehicle (not be prisoner).   Well, she goes on a threatening rampage about what she is going to do to me.  I told her I would continue the trip with her if we could be kind to each other or I could leave.   She didn't pick but kept up her threats.  I drove 6 hours home (a couple days early). The threats had to do with sending kids all over the place (keeping them from me).  She came home with all the kids. Advice:  Think through boundaries carefully.  Practice them. Very likely you will be triggered when you need to enforce them.                                        

FF

[Icthelight]

I created my first two boundaries a few months ago -- I won't be screamed at, and I won't be called names. I've been doing very well at enforcing them

Hey, these were my first two boundaries too. I guess they're working because she hasn't screamed at me or called me names since implementing them. The downside is that since I implemented them, she stopped engaging with me and is giving me the cold shoulder and silent treatment. She only speaks to me when she absolutely has to.

I'm trying to be nice and pleasant and I'm not chasing her. All of this is new to me and to her. I really dislike the tension, but I'm going to continue down this path. Let's see how this plays out.

[flourdust]

Well, we had the conversation last night. It lasted about 90 minutes, which was much longer than I had intended, but I was able to stay calm and relaxed throughout, and she was emotional but didn't lose it.

A lot of ground was covered, including her DBT program, the incident in the car on Sunday, and some of our past history. The biggest challenge for me was not that we disagreed on some things but that she persistently misremembers or distorts things that were said to fit her narrative. I corrected those several times, and while she didn't always accept my correction, at least we were able to discuss them.

I can't say we came away in harmony, but I felt pretty satisfied that at least we were both able to express our desires. From me, that boils down to wanting her to improve how she relates to me so that she is not constantly busting my boundaries and converting her anxiety into personal attacks. From her, it's all about her abandonment issues -- she wants me to stay with her and support her during dysregulation. We were able to talk about BPD issues, and I made the point that the flip side of abandonment is unhealthy enmeshment, and that strong couples are made up of two individuals who each have healthy boundaries. Again, we're not fully in agreement, but at least we were able to talk about this clearly.

I was probably happier with this talk than she was. She went to divorce threats -- although in a more lucid manner, making the argument that her program teaches her to cut non-supportive people out of her life. And I acknowledged that and made my own point that I couldn't be with someone who wouldn't respect healthy boundaries.

The downside to all this is the issue of her memory distortions. I thought there was a lot of clarity in this conversation, but I fear that over time she'll rewrite what was said to better fit her internal victimization narrative. Time will tell. Hopefully, she heard my ask (and I did use DEAR MAN for this) to avoid conflict in cars. She kept a kind of running sarcastic commentary during this, but I went through the entire DEAR regardless.

[Suzn]

Success is where preparation and opportunity meet.

Well done. Walk away from the thoughts of what she might do in the future. That wastes your energy. Deal with what is right now.

[formflier]

  You are right, that is long. If you had exited sooner, do you thing you would have avoided threats. I often talk about "flanking" maneuvers being better than "frontal assaults". Skip explaining to her that you won't stay with her in dysreg because of blah blah blah. "Honey, I will be glad to support you in your time of need, "  You are positive, you are agreeing, you are on her team, and you control your support. She dysregs, validate and let her know you need to take a break and will back in 10 minutes.  Bring her something, listen, validate and repeat cycle. See how you are meeting her part way and still protecting yourself?                              

FF

[flourdust]

Actually, she did ask that I take shorter breaks when she dysregulates, and I agreed to try that. (I had tried shorter ones before but found that she wasn't able to calm down. But I'm willing to try again to see if she's better at it.)

I was actually surprised that it had lasted 90 minutes. I didn't notice until we were done and I looked at the clock. I don't think the time was a problem -- it stayed pretty calm and didn't devolve into circular arguments.

The entire time, I kept a little squishy fidget toy in my hands. It had a smiley face on it, and I imagined it saying to me "stay calm" whenever I looked at it.

[formflier]

  The entire time, I kept a little squishy fidget toy in my hands. It had a smiley face on it, and I imagined it saying to me "stay calm" whenever I looked at it.

                            This is a solution.  It worked for you.   The key with short breaks in dysregulation is to make the appearance a "touch and go".  Pop in, hand her glass of water, a pat on the back, express concern and then be off if things are not better. If they are better, validate validate validate.  Listen.  Make sure she knows that she is heard.                              

FF