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Author Topic: An unreasonable Boundary? (part 1)  (Read 1375 times)
Cole
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« on: November 16, 2015, 05:56:25 AM »

BPD/bipolar wife moved out of state yesterday. Long story behind it, but basically she has come to the realization she is in her words "bat crap crazy" and feels very guilty over how she treats me and the kids. She kissed me and said she loves me before she left, crying and saying she is not sure this is the right thing to do.

Her plan: She moves out so she can get healthy. We will stay in touch, talk every day, and spend weekends together either here or at her apartment. We will look for a marriage counselor who can see us Friday evenings or Saturdays.

My boundary: If you move we are done. No contact except for matters pertaining to kids and finances. We will work out a visitation schedule for the kids. My thought on it is that I do not see how moving is going to help her get healthy, since her doctors are all back here.

Is this an unreasonable boundary? Am I drawing the line in the sand in the wrong place?
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2015, 07:08:49 AM »

Boundaries reflect our values, so if they are true to ourselves, they are not unreasonable. They can be individual. For instance, someone who is devoutly religious may have a boundary to only date/marry people of the same religion. For someone who is not religious, this boundary would seem unnecessary.

Someone can have a boundary on fidelity in a relationship. If the partner is not faithful, then that person may have to choose between the boundary and the relationship altogether. Someone else may decide an open relationship is OK.

Boundaries are personal and a boundary may seem unreasonable to someone else, but if it is important to you, then you determine whether or not is it unreasonable.

However, the problem with boundaries is if you set one that is unenforceable. If you can't enforce your boundary, then it is not effective and the person learns that your boundaries aren't meaningful. Boundaries made in the heat of the moment, or under emotional duress may not be enforceable. I remember coming home late from a date in high school. My father was angry and shouted " you will not see that boy again". Well, he was in many of my classes, so I would see him at school. That was an impossible boundary and I giggled at it. It was also not reasonable. The relationship was not serious and we were both good kids. We were friends, had all the same friends.

This is a boundary that was made in the heat of the moment, and it didn't address the issue which was not the boy- I missed curfew. The consequences of that could have been being grounded for a weekend, or having to do some chores. It was not actually a boundary but an angry reaction in the moment.

So how does this story apply to your boundary? It would make sense that you are angry and upset about your wife's decision. Is this a boundary that is made from the heart, reflects your true self, your feelings, or is it made in the heat of the moment? Is it based on the actual problem or a "in the moment" reaction to your wife's decision. Is it part of a battle of wills- if you do this, then I will do that.

Is it enforceable? Can you really limit the conversation to those times and topics? Is this a NC limiting statement? For instance, your wife could call at any time "about the kids" and then switch and bait in the middle of the conversation. It would be hard to ignore calls and texts that start with " I need to talk about the kids".

The limits of the conversations would have to come within you. You will need to establish your own boundaries within conversations. Boundaries do not even have to be stated, you would just begin to enforce them when the conversation drifts into topics you don't wish to discuss.

If you state this boundary, your wife will likely test it, and if you go back on it, then what you say becomes meaningless.

Is this boundary for you or being said as a means to control her decision to move out. If it is to control her, then it isn't a boundary. Boundaries are meant for us, not them.

You can decide to not say anything. You also don't have to agree with her wishes. What you can say is that, you really don't know what to do in this situation and you need time to think about it.

You can then decide what your boundaries are. One boundary may be not to rescue her emotionally, and allow her to experience the consequences of her decision. Her decision may also be in the moment.

I don't think it is possible to tell you if your boundary is unreasonable, but you may want to think this one through.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2015, 07:45:16 AM »

Giving this the litmus test... .

If you're done, wouldn't you would file for divorce? Change the locks. Isolate your half of the property?

Is going "No contact", more like a silent treatment - punishment?  You take away from me, I take away from you?

I can't imagine your frustration - so I get it.  I can't imagine having this (or the threat of this) hanging over a marriage.  I understand that you don't want to enable.

What will be more true here?  An emotionally "resigned" filing for divorce or a tense 30 days of emotionally charged silent treatment?  Or do you just give her space for three weeks and see what develops?

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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2015, 08:23:36 AM »

Hi Cole,

If I remember right your wife did this a couple of months ago right?   Left and then returned in two days?  and about two weeks ago she had a pretty serious episode and signed herself out AMA from partial hospitalization program.   I want to make sure I have the back story correct.

I like what NotWendy said about boundaries reflecting our values.   

I think if you can state what value this boundary is protecting that will help with you feeling comfortable with the decision.

'ducks
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2015, 10:47:58 AM »

Is this boundary for you or being said as a means to control her decision to move out. If it is to control her, then it isn't a boundary. Boundaries are meant for us, not them.

I suppose it is a little of each. It is for me, because I am so worn out with her duality and back/forth behavior. I can't take anymore.

And part of it is to try to control her decision to move out. I put two crying kids to bed last night because they miss mom and feel abandoned. I did not want her to move out for this and other reasons.      

You can decide to not say anything. You also don't have to agree with her wishes. What you can say is that, you really don't know what to do in this situation and you need time to think about it.

You can then decide what your boundaries are. One boundary may be not to rescue her emotionally, and allow her to experience the consequences of her decision. Her decision may also be in the moment.

I don't think it is possible to tell you if your boundary is unreasonable, but you may want to think this one through.

And letting her experience the consequences of her decision is another part of it. My first thought was, ":)on't want to be married anymore? OK, let's see how you do without me."

Giving this the litmus test... .

If you're done, wouldn't you would file for divorce? Change the locks. Isolate your half of the property?

Is going "No contact", more like a silent treatment - punishment?  You take away from me, I take away from you?

I can't imagine your frustration - so I get it.  I can't imagine having this (or the threat of this) hanging over a marriage.  I understand that you don't want to enable.

What will be more true here?  An emotionally "resigned" filing for divorce or a tense 30 days of emotionally charged silent treatment?  Or do you just give her space for three weeks and see what develops?

I feel backed into a corner where I have two choices: continue to let her have her way (one foot in and one foot out of the marriage) or say enough is enough, I can't take anymore.

If I let her continue to have her way with bouncing back and forth, in and out, I leave myself open to more craziness. More not knowing what the heck she will do next, because she is really unpredictable and illogical in her thinking. It is hard on me, and even more so for the kids.

If I say enough is enough, then filing for divorce is the next step. This is not what I want, but feels like it is my only option.

NC seemed like a way to say I am not doing this anymore. Let's see how you do without me in your life. Is running around with your HS friends more important than your family? If you are fine with NC, I know to just end the marriage.

Am I off track in my thinking? I feel that if I do things her way, I am just enabling more of this erratic behavior.

Hi Cole,

If I remember right your wife did this a couple of months ago right?   Left and then returned in two days?  and about two weeks ago she had a pretty serious episode and signed herself out AMA from partial hospitalization program.   I want to make sure I have the back story correct.

I like what NotWendy said about boundaries reflecting our values.    

I think if you can state what value this boundary is protecting that will help with you feeling comfortable with the decision.

'ducks

Yes, you have the story correct. Following from that point:

She went to both our family doctor and her T last week, both of whom told her to go back to partial hospitalization. She refused.

She was very loving and affectionate for several days before leaving. Said "I love you" often, kissed me every chance she got and even initiated intimacy several times, which we have not done in a long time. I thought she had realized she was making a mistake and was changing her mind. But she left anyways, kissing me and telling me how much she loves me and how important I am to her before she walked out the door. Quite honestly, I am baffled.

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

This is just another in a line of poor decisions she has made based on trying to fill a need with a job offer. If someone offered her a job clearing land mines in Iraq, she would take it just because someone offered it to her. She takes a job, it validates her, then she quits. If she had been offered the other local job she wanted instead, we might not be having this conversation.    



 

   

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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 11:42:41 AM »

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

You have been through a lot.  The back and forth would have to be taking a toll on you and the kids.   It sounds very rational to want to put protection in place for your mental health and the kids mental health.

Since the devil is always in the details, do you think you can hold this boundary.   If she calls in two days again saying I want to come back,  how do you envision that playing out?

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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 12:45:09 PM »

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

You have been through a lot.  The back and forth would have to be taking a toll on you and the kids.   It sounds very rational to want to put protection in place for your mental health and the kids mental health.

Since the devil is always in the details, do you think you can hold this boundary.   If she calls in two days again saying I want to come back,  how do you envision that playing out?

A big part of me would want to say yes, come home.

I suppose I would have to phrase it as, "No. Not unless you are willing to attend the treatment all your doctors want you to attend (back to the partial hospitalization program) and MC."

She has said several times in the past couple weeks that she thinks our separation will be a failure, that we will miss each other so much it will not last long. She also has made all the arrangements to move, packed up most of her belongings, and left even though I said I would be through if she did this again. 

I need to list out all her possible actions from here and determine how I should respond to each.

I just don't know what those responses should be. 


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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 12:55:33 PM »

boundary enforcement can be difficult.   intermittent re-enforcement is not your friend. 

are you willing to reject phone calls?   requests for money?   change the locks?   I am not trying to badger you when you are down and hurting... .   all of us describe 'done' differently.   I've found done to be an emotional word coming from my exhaustion.   what does 'done' look like to you?

you are in an extraordinary situation, nobody typically has to walk through something like this... .   
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 01:21:04 PM »

boundary enforcement can be difficult.   intermittent re-enforcement is not your friend.  

are you willing to reject phone calls?   requests for money?   change the locks?   I am not trying to badger you when you are down and hurting... .  all of us describe 'done' differently.   I've found done to be an emotional word coming from my exhaustion.   what does 'done' look like to you?

you are in an extraordinary situation, nobody typically has to walk through something like this... . 

You are not badgering; I need help thinking through this and appreciate your help and candor.  

I will not take a phone call. She can leave a message, and if it has to do with the kids or money, I will return it. But the subject will be limited to that topic. If she wants to talk about feelings, I will remind her that this was her idea and I am not ready to talk right now (which is true).    

Transferred all but a little for day to day expenses from our joint account to a new account under my name only. Every penny in there came from my paychecks; I am not financing this shindig for her. She will have to figure it out herself. She has a small paycheck from the job she had and quit earlier this month, she can cash and use that.  

Changing the locks is a no-no at this point according to my attorney. Should this go to divorce court, I have a major upper hand in that she has, of her own accord, abandoned the family and the home.

Yes, done is an emotional word for exhausted. The more I examine it, the less sure I am that I know what done truly looks like.

Her plan at this point is to leave work and come directly here Friday, stay the night, continue packing Saturday, and then we go as a family to my daughter's girl scout event Sunday. I really do not know how I feel about that. It is easy for us to ignore each other from a distance, but put us in the same house and we are glued together, even if we are mad. We just enjoy being together that much when she is not disregulated.  
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2015, 01:34:24 PM »

Wow, Cole. I'm so sorry.  

If I remember correctly, it seems earlier this spring you were trying to set a date that if her behavior didn't change, you'd take steps towards divorce. It seems like you've given her so many second chances.

It's hard to let go totally when there's still some good stuff left in the relationship when dysregulations and bad behaviors haven't taken over entirely.

I don't have a lot of experience with ending relationships, as mine have lasted a long time. What I do know is that when I ended my first marriage, I had set a couple of boundaries I would not compromise and when they were broken, I knew I was done. I haven't regretted that for a minute, though it was really hard getting out of that marriage. We didn't have children, so that made it much easier.

Keep posting and imagine yourself next year, in five years, in ten, in twenty. Ask your future selves what they want.  
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2015, 01:37:51 PM »

You want her to stop doing this and come home, right?

Then don't get into an emotional war with her. But stand firm. These are not the same thing.

Think more in terms of carrot and stick.

An emotional war is twig and twig.

Remember the Karpman Triangle. Don't be a persecutor (punitive, punishment, etc.).  :)o be asssertive.

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on."

File (stick), be accepting (carrot), and be firm (she can't come back without and agreement).  Let her pursue you (don't go at her).

Make sense?

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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2015, 01:53:07 PM »

If I remember correctly, it seems earlier this spring you were trying to set a date that if her behavior didn't change, you'd take steps towards divorce. It seems like you've given her so many second chances.

Yes, good memory. She did change behavior for a while and was working hard to be a better wife and mother. The flip side is that she has come to the realization of how horrible she has treated me and the kids, so now she is leaving because she feels so guilty.

She has asked my dozens of times over the last few weeks, "What is wrong with me?"   

"Why am I such a freak?"

"Why can't I control my anger and actions?"

My stock answer has been that I love her unconditionally and that she needs serious professional help to answer those questions. But running away is the path she chose. 
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2015, 02:03:26 PM »

You want her to stop doing this and come home, right?

Then don't get into an emotional war with her. But stand firm. These are not the same thing.

Think more in terms of carrot and stick.

An emotional war is twig and twig.

Remember the Karpman Triangle. Don't be a persecutor (punitive, punishment, etc.).  :)o be asssertive.

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on."

File (stick), be accepting (carrot), and be firm (she can't come back without and agreement).  Let her pursue you (don't go at her).

Make sense?

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

Do not have any plan to pursue her. If she wants to sleep with me in my room or be close Friday, she is out of luck. She will have to agree to come back with an agreement first. And the first item on the agreement is to do what her doctors are telling her she needs to do.  
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2015, 05:21:42 AM »

Thank you to Notwendy, Skip, babyducks, and Cat Familiar for your input. There is a little girl who misses mom and an autistic boy who does not understand what is happening who will never know you, but would appreciate your time in offering your help.

The most important thing in the world to me right now is finding a way to hold my family together, if it is even possible. But even after reading and rereading this thread, I am still not sure what to do. One one side, I do not want to appear weak. On the other, it seems clear from things posted here that I am being counterproductive by saying, "if you move, I am divorcing you."

So, knowing the BPD mindset that I am up against, do I agree to her separation plan?
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2015, 05:30:51 AM »

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2015, 05:45:01 AM »

hi Cole,

nice to see you are hanging in there with us.

for me being in a BPD relationship often means finding a way to walk down the middle of the road.   BPD pushes behavior to the extremes,  black and white thinking often creates situations that appear binary, with either/or solutions.  thinking creatively out of the box isn't easy but it can be fruitful.

I can completely understand not wanting to enable her separation plan, as she is leaving not just you and the kids but her medical support network.   From what you describe this appears less a separation and more a running away?   let me know if I got that right.

It appears a plan destined to fail,  so I would plan for the failure.   I would have to carefully consider my deeply ingrained habit to rescue.    Getting out of that freaking Karpman Triangle would be a good thing.   No rescuing, no persecuting.  

I use the Yale communication model a lot.   mostly because it helps me organize my thoughts.

When ___________ (event happens) I feel_________ so I will_______________.

The nice thing about the Yale model is it helps me drill down into the finer details.   I can start with the higher level event and approach it several ways.      For me it looks like this.

When a verbal disagreement breaks out, I feel overwhelmed, swamped, attacked and rushed, so I will take 30 seconds  to step back and gather my scattered thoughts.  

my two cents is to focus on you and the kids today... . 

'ducks
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2015, 06:08:58 AM »

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

Skip,

I am still trying to understand your analogy. I am so overwhelmed cannot think strait right now.

I am not sure what the carrot should even be.

She sent me a text first thing this AM that she wishes it has not come to this, so I know it is bothering her, too.

for me being in a BPD relationship often means finding a way to walk down the middle of the road.   BPD pushes behavior to the extremes,  black and white thinking often creates situations that appear binary, with either/or solutions.  thinking creatively out of the box isn't easy but it can be fruitful.



Her black and white thinking seems to have pushed me to do the same. She goes so far one way that I push hard the opposite direction, trying to bring things to the middle. Does not work.

From what you describe this appears less a separation and more a running away?   let me know if I got that right.

It appears a plan destined to fail,  so I would plan for the failure.   I would have to carefully consider my deeply ingrained habit to rescue.    Getting out of that freaking Karpman Triangle would be a good thing.   No rescuing, no persecuting. 

She has stated she wants this to be a temporary separation so she can "get healthy", though I do not know how and she cannot articulate it. She has also said she thinks our separation will be a miserable failure because we will miss each other so much. 
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2015, 06:14:47 AM »

I will second the middle of the road approach and not being reactive.

One of the "laundry list" items that we read at ACOA (includes FOO dysfunction even without Alcohol)  groups is " we became reactors rather than actors"

This statement really touched me as I felt that I was being reactive, and in this case, it let others' emotions take charge of my life. I needed to be centered and act according to me, regardless of what others were doing.

Not easy with kids. What you want is to not have their mother leave because it may cause them pain. I understand this, but if it is her decision to do so, then she is responsible for the consequences.

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad.

I can't speak for a child with autism who will not understand this, but one thing I do know about autism is the need for routine, constancy, and same-ness in environment, otherwise there will be anxiety. I would try to keep his world as constant as possible- which means staying in the same home, same school, same schedule and I would advocate for this in case your wife wants to have him back and forth between two homes. I do know of divorced parents who do this, and I think they make an effort to have the same toys, routines and such. This is something to discuss if she does go through with it, but I have a hunch she may not.

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important, as well as aunts and mothers of some of my friends who stood in as mother role models.  

In the long run, my mother's behavior impacted our relationship with her. We were closer emotionally to dad. This isn't what you want, or what any parent would want- we want our kids to be close to both parents- but if one parent is inconsistent, or the cause of emotional hurts for the child, then the child will make up his or her own mind.

I think family therapy for the kids can help. They can do play therapy with little ones, help them with their feelings.
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2015, 06:55:29 AM »

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad. 

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important,

Notwendy, I can't tell you how much I needed to read this today.  I know it wasn't meant for me but - thank you.
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2015, 07:53:10 AM »

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad.  

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important,

Notwendy, I can't tell you how much I needed to read this today.  I know it wasn't meant for me but - thank you.

And certainly puts into perspective what I must expect of her moving forward (if we do move forward) for the good of the kids.
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2015, 07:57:13 AM »

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2015, 08:04:49 AM »

I liked what you said about her pushing so hard in one direction and you pushing in the opposite trying to bring things back to the center.   I like that so much I may borrow it.   Smiling (click to insert in post)   I do it too.

Finding my own center and letting my partner orbit around me makes me feel more peaceful.   I have the comfort of saying and truly feeling that I did what was right for me, and I did it in a compassionate and caring way.

You have mentioned what she thinks she can get out of this separation. I may have missed you saying what you feel could be beneficial?   Anything?
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2015, 09:09:54 AM »

I'm glad I could help.

My parents never did get divorced. After a long marriage ( >55 years) my father - who lived to be an old man- died. My mother is able to live on her own, thanks to his financial planning. He made sure she would be financially secure.

Despite the divorce threats- mostly on her part, a few on his, they stayed together. I wondered if they would separate after the kids left home, but they didn't. Although their relationship had its drama, it seems that they were bonded.

However, had they been divorced, I think we would have learned to handle that one as well. I am sure it would have brought different results and probably different challenges. As far as this goes, I think parents have to make the best decision they can at the time. I don't think it is a decision that is all good or all bad, but still one may be better or worse than the other for different couples. As parents, we want to protect our kids, but we can only do our best with that too.

I wouldn't say that we kids were not effected by the issues in our FOO- we were. I think we all have co-dependent tendencies. But I will emphasize the impact of a stable parent. Although my dad had co-dependent traits, he was the constant in our lives. We would not be who we are had he not. Although we did vilify mom growing up, learning how to forgive her and be compassionate has been a lesson too, and a good one to learn.

As a parent myself, my kids are one of the biggest motivators for me to work on me- my issues, my co-dependency so that perhaps I can do a better job of parenting them and model emotionally healthy behavior.
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2015, 09:58:58 AM »

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?

Yes.
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2015, 10:35:17 AM »

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?

Yes.

I will print this out, put a gold star on it and hang it on the fridge.
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2015, 11:05:53 AM »



These are emotional and difficult times. Try to stay grounded. Keep talking it through.
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2015, 11:14:15 AM »



These are emotional and difficult times. Try to stay grounded. Keep talking it through.

Appreciate your help and will keep working on it. I realized earlier that the extreme black and white thinking of my BPDw has caused me to do the same as a way of trying to counter balance it out.   

She has begged me to "meet her half way" and agree to talk to her every night, see her on weekends, and see a MC on Friday evenings or Saturdays when she comes up. I think my refusal has just pushed her farther along in believing I do not love her.
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2015, 11:39:17 AM »

Cole,

It's obvious to those of us who have followed your story that you do indeed love your wife. You've tried so hard and you just seem emotionally exhausted. I totally get that. Who wouldn't be if they were in your shoes and having to put up with all her incongruities and trying to maintain a stable home for two children? You've certainly been tested by fire, both in your work career and your home life. You know how strong you are. Is there anything you can do now to take care of you? I know you've got a lot on your plate, but it seems like you need some nourishment--maybe in the form of working out, spending some time with buddies, enjoying a game with a friend. I hope you've got family who can look after the kids for an evening or two while you do something that feels good for you.

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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2015, 05:11:59 PM »

Cole,

It's obvious to those of us who have followed your story that you do indeed love your wife. You've tried so hard and you just seem emotionally exhausted. I totally get that. Who wouldn't be if they were in your shoes and having to put up with all her incongruities and trying to maintain a stable home for two children? You've certainly been tested by fire, both in your work career and your home life. You know how strong you are. Is there anything you can do now to take care of you? I know you've got a lot on your plate, but it seems like you need some nourishment--maybe in the form of working out, spending some time with buddies, enjoying a game with a friend. I hope you've got family who can look after the kids for an evening or two while you do something that feels good for you.

Cat 

Thank you, CF. Emotionally exhausted is the correct term to use here. She is coming with a truck for the rest of her stuff this weekend. Then, I am taking time off with the kids over Thanksgiving to relax and be a dad. It will be interesting to see if she tries to get me to invite her for the holiday... .   
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 05:31:19 PM »

You have mentioned what she thinks she can get out of this separation. I may have missed you saying what you feel could be beneficial?   Anything?



I really do not know. A break from the crazy would be nice. And she cannot realize she misses me if we are not apart. (already texted she misses me a little while ago.)

But the other side of it is being a single parent with a very demanding job an hour away, a big property to maintain, an elderly mother and aunt to look after, and two kids, one with autistic spectrum disorders including ODD (like parenting 10). 

I will have to really try hard not to become resentful of her having abandoned her responsibilities.
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 07:36:05 PM »

She just called to talk to the kids. Says she misses me, this is making her sick, and she can't eat. Very cold about her wonderful new job. I think the novelty is already wearing off. The last one lasted 4 days before she quit.

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

I told her I would have to think about it, that I would have certain terms to be met. She said OK.

I guess we will see from here. Day 2 and I think she is starting to feel the burn of being away from the family. The more she feels the need to come back, the more ammo I have to get her to go to the psychiatric program all her doctors and therapists have told her she needs to go to.     
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2015, 08:50:18 PM »

Really routing for you
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2015, 05:19:47 AM »

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

Does that work for you?   Do you feel comfortable with her ideas?
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« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2015, 06:06:44 AM »

Are you able to hire some help with the house and kids?

Growing up, we had housekeepers and nannies. This had pros and cons. As kids, we didn't like that our mother didn't spend time raising us. We didn't understand why we had to have nannies take care of us when mom didn't work outside the home. We had no idea that this was the arrangement made so that my father could go to work and know that we were being taken care of. We just didn't understand why we didn't have a mom who cooked and took care of us, like our friends' moms ( note that this was before the era where more women worked and child care was common).

It was very important to me to be the kind of mom that I wished I had. I no doubt idealized this to some extent. However, I found that asking my H to help with the kids sometimes didn't go very well. He would get angry at me. So, I didn't ask him, much out of fear but also, because it would not be good for the kids to have an angry resentful parent. It was a dilemma, because, mom's need a break sometimes, - so I did make use of sitters, pre-schools, if I needed some time to myself. I didn't feel right about this, because of how I grew up and also, because my friends didn't use sitters as often. However, I noticed that if they wanted to do something in the evenings, like go to the gym or a women's group, their husbands pitched in so that they could do something that they enjoyed. Mine did not.


As an adult, I don't think I am any worse off for my father getting some help. In fact, I think it was a good thing that a warm loving person attended to our needs as children. I don't think my kids are worse off either. I was still the main caretaker- I did plenty of holding, feeding, changing and parenting. However, I was also able to take a break sometimes, and that allowed me to recharge and be a good caretaker to them.

I mention this because, as a single dad with kids, a job, a home, and elderly family members that you take care of, getting some help will let you take care of yourself and may also help even when your wife returns home.

I like the idea of pychiatric care. My mother is at the severe range of BPD. I know that my parents tried psychiatry, but in their era, not much was available or known about BPD.
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2015, 06:33:23 AM »

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

Does that work for you?   :)o you feel comfortable with her ideas?

Not without a lot of stipulations including psychiatric care, a set schedule, and a timeline. No improvement in X number of months, them we reevaluate if we should continue.

Do not know how long this is going to last at this point. I could here the "what the hell am I doing this for?" in her voice last night. She is very stubborn and will continue to do something she knows is wrong for her to a point, then flip the other way. I am preparing for the flip, should it occur.

I sent her an email outlining her share of the bills, telling her she is now responsible for her health insurance, and asking for her input on sharing the kids at Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will see what a reality check does at this point.

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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2015, 06:41:20 AM »

Are you able to hire some help with the house and kids?

Yes, I am looking. Maybe a nice looking 20-something nannie just to drive her nuts. Smiling (click to insert in post)

We just didn't understand why we didn't have a mom who cooked and took care of us, like our friends' moms ( note that this was before the era where more women worked and child care was common).

 

I get that. W bounces back and forth between super mom and staring at the computer while the kids and the house go to hell. Kids love the former and, unfortunately, used to the latter.  

She just called crying, saying her back and neck are all cramped up and hurt really bad. (Happens when she is stressed). I told her I am sorry she feels so bad, but I have to get the kids out the door. 
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« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2015, 07:09:25 AM »

 

Cole,

I'm rooting for you! 

She has swung to an extreme... .make sure you don't swing to the other extreme.

This assumes you are open to reconcile... .my gut tells me that you are.

She is grasping for control... .give her some... but not all.

My gut says talking every day is not good... .the MC thing is great!

In other words... .don't just sign off on what she wants... .just like she shouldn't sign off on everything that you want.

There is a solution in the middle.

Perhaps an agreement to "follow her doctors recommendations" and then you talk every day.

You likely won't get the agreement you want during the first negotiation (if you think of it this way... you may stay more grounded)

Babysteps are ok... .as long as you maintain your stick... .and your carrot... .AND YOUR RESOLVE AND ASSERTIVENESS

To be clear... NC seems like a swing to extreme... .

Her walking back into your life like nothing ever happened seems unhealthy as well.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Hang in there!

FF

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« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2015, 10:31:53 AM »

Cole,

I'm rooting for you! 

She has swung to an extreme... .make sure you don't swing to the other extreme.

This assumes you are open to reconcile... .my gut tells me that you are.

She is grasping for control... .give her some... but not all.

My gut says talking every day is not good... .the MC thing is great!

In other words... .don't just sign off on what she wants... .just like she shouldn't sign off on everything that you want.

There is a solution in the middle.

Perhaps an agreement to "follow her doctors recommendations" and then you talk every day.

You likely won't get the agreement you want during the first negotiation (if you think of it this way... you may stay more grounded)

Babysteps are ok... .as long as you maintain your stick... .and your carrot... .AND YOUR RESOLVE AND ASSERTIVENESS

To be clear... NC seems like a swing to extreme... .

Her walking back into your life like nothing ever happened seems unhealthy as well.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Hang in there!

FF

FF,

Good point on the control. At this point, I think she is doing this just to show she has some. So, I am being supportive, but not telling her she is doing the wrong thing or asking her to change her mind.

I sent her a list of things we need to handle, such as finances, who gets the kids when, etc... .this morning and I think it really affected her. She just texted me that she left work (day 3) to go to a doctor. She is so stressed out that her back and neck are seized up. I feel so bad for her, but there is nothing I can do to take care of her a state away.   
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« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2015, 05:24:30 PM »

Called me this AM and told me her back and neck are all cramped up from stress and she just needed to talk to me. I knew from experience she would not make it through the day. Sure enough, she was on the way to the ER before lunch with severe arm, back and neck pain. They ruled out cardiac issues, but had to put her on morphine and muscle relaxers and admit her over night. This happens to her when she is stressed, but I have never seen it so bad as today.

I figured she would not make it through the work week before she either found a reason to quit or made herself sick. So, we will see if she can keep this job after today or even tries. And if she loses the job, what she will do from there.




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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2015, 05:31:21 PM »

 

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"


Do you know the procedure for her to self admit herself to the hospitalization program that her doctor recommended?


Do you have a good r/s with her dr... .the one that recommended inpatient therapy.

FF
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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Do you know the procedure for her to self admit herself to the hospitalization program that her doctor recommended?

Do you have a good r/s with her dr... .the one that recommended inpatient therapy.

Procedure is easy for partial hospitalization program. Call, tell them the name of the referring doctor (in this case, there are 4 of them) and show up Monday morning.

She called a minute ago to tell me there is a doctor coming in to see her this evening, but not sure what kind or for what. I am hoping psych evaluation.
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2015, 06:03:15 PM »

 

Fill in the blanks of what skip suggested... .you can keep editing up until time to say it.

You know that is going to be here sooner... .rather than later.

If there is any chance you can get her doctor to call out there and cin those doctors... .or get those doctors to tell her to go to the hospitalization program.

one good thing about your story is that she is somewhat self aware... .she wants to be fixed.  Focus your solutions around that.

REFUSE any of her solutions that don't go in that direction.

I like Skips thing.  I think there is a middle step before doing that... .before saying "I need to move on... "

I like saying would you like to do A... .or B... .

Note:  You are fine with a or b because both options lead to her in treatment.

So, "Honey, would you like to do the hospitalization program where you stay overnights and can focus on you or would you like to do the one where you come home on weekends and try out your new skills.

Either choices leads to a good place.

Last:  Have you ever found a way that works to influence you wife's decision making in a good way?

FF
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« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2015, 06:39:01 PM »

Last:  Have you ever found a way that works to influence you wife's decision making in a good way?

FF

Let me put that in an analogy just for Form Flyer. Smiling (click to insert in post) Influencing her decisions is like flying an E-2C Hawkeye that has no rudder, elevator, or aileron control but is stuck at full throttle. Her decision making is full speed with no controls and there is not much you can do but wait for the horrific crash.  

Good advice on filling in the blanks. I have been thinking that one through since he suggested it yesterday.
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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2015, 06:43:08 PM »

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Here is my suggested language, hack away at it.   

What I need to go forward from this point is a solid commitment to the recommended hospitalization program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue this separation I will allow your decisions will be your own to make happen.


Hey - no picking on the E-2C's... .we are all quite fond of them.

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« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2015, 06:53:12 PM »

 

Ah yes... .that would be quite a ride in an E-2... . 

I would take out commitment... .

I like the word "complete" the recommended hospitalization program... .or hospitalization program recommended by your doctor (it's not you... .it's the doc that is the expert)

We get something on here that we like... and then you need to practice... .think about how it will sound.

Think about doing it over the phone or in person (which do you think would work better)... .is there someone that can watch the kids?

Lots of things to think about... .this is called planning for success.

FF

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« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2015, 06:57:12 PM »

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Here is my suggested language, hack away at it.  

What I need to go forward from this point is a solid commitment to the recommended hospitalization program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue this separation I will allow your decisions to be your own to make happen.

Hack number 2

What I need to go forward is a completion of the doctor's recommended program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue the separation I will allow your decisions to be your own to make happen.

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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2015, 07:33:19 PM »

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile. 
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2015, 07:56:56 PM »

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile. 

"Visit next summer... " is bait... .don't take it...

She may be serious... .but nothing good comes of thinking about it... .or responding to it now.

Questions to think about.

How often should she be talking to kids?  If she is going to leave you at home... .she needs to leave it alone so you can parent.  I realize this is early... .but start thinking about this.  Every day seems too much...   Be thinking about it.

Do you want the kids around on Saturday to watch her pack.  If the moving is traumitizing (as you have described)... .I would find them somewhere else to be.  Then... .when she is ready to go... .maybe you guys meet at chuck e cheese... .or some other public place... .let them spend some time together... .and move along.

Boy... .that sucks to even think about.  But... .what will have least impact on kids... .and give you most control over situation to extricate kids if it gets weird?

FF
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« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2015, 05:11:24 AM »

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile.  

"Visit next summer... " is bait... .don't take it...

She may be serious... .but nothing good comes of thinking about it... .or responding to it now.

Questions to think about.

How often should she be talking to kids?  If she is going to leave you at home... .she needs to leave it alone so you can parent.  I realize this is early... .but start thinking about this.  Every day seems too much...  Be thinking about it.

Do you want the kids around on Saturday to watch her pack.  If the moving is traumitizing (as you have described)... .I would find them somewhere else to be.  Then... .when she is ready to go... .maybe you guys meet at chuck e cheese... .or some other public place... .let them spend some time together... .and move along.

Boy... .that sucks to even think about.  But... .what will have least impact on kids... .and give you most control over situation to extricate kids if it gets weird?

FF

The pool/next summer comment was said to our son and in reference to what she liked to do when she was a teen. She did not know he had put it on speaker, so it is not bait. More likely fantasy. She can't relive her childhood, so she wants to relive it through them. Right now her home town is the most wonderful place in the world. A year ago it was the worst place in the world. Black and white thinking from a pwBPD... .who would have thought.

She is already packed, just needs to move out furniture and load up the boxes. Kids watched her pack last week. If it gets bad Saturday I can send them up the field and through the woods to grandma's house pretty quick.    

She sent me plenty of text and called numerous times last night just to keep me up to date on her health. One thing she keeps texting is "I hate what has happened to us". Well, if you hate it, why are you doing something to make it worse instead of trying to fix it?

The one thing that is really bothering me is how she acted before she left. Last week at this time communication was great. We were getting along great, having some good talks about how to fix our marriage, and were even intimate several times, which has not happened in quite a while. She was acting like a newly wed. Then she left. Really cannot wrap my head around it.
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« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2015, 05:32:35 AM »

This is heartbreaking to see this effect the kids at this age, but in time, I think they will catch on to this.

I am an advocate for therapy for the kids/play therapy- and whatever it takes to help a child with autism.

But we had so many " do this or mom leaves" threats, that we just ended up resenting her.

She still does this- comes up with ideas about what she is going to do, where she is going to move. I used to react to them as an adult, but I found that if I opposed her, it was an invitation to the triangle- I became the persecutor, and then she would announce to family that her terrible daughter won't let her do X, or Y, and the rescuers in the family would jump on the bandwagon.

When my father was living, it was " I'm moving out and getting my own apartment in X". Now it's "I need to move out of this house, so I am throwing all this stuff ( that belonged to us kids or my dad) out".  "I can't move because of all this stuff in the house"

The few times I have come to get anything by the time I get there, she has changed her mind. Or when I offer to take any of the stuff she is complaining about, she won't let me take it. If I pleaded with her to not throw something out that I wanted, then she'd say " How dare you keep me from moving".

So now, when I get the call " I'm moving here, or I'm getting rid of all your stuff" I just say "Ok mom" and let it go.

Your wife is going to be a part of your lives, and this is part of it. I hope you can get her medical help. I wish something like that was available to my mother. Still, the threats, the fantasy that the grass is greener somewhere else seems to be part of it including dashed dreams like that pool your wife mentioned that may or may not materialize. But we figured it out, and I think in time, kids do figure out who means what they say and who doesn't.


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« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2015, 05:40:18 AM »

The one thing that is really bothering me is how she acted before she left. Last week at this time communication was great. We were getting along great, having some good talks about how to fix our marriage, and were even intimate several times, which has not happened in quite a while. She was acting like a newly wed. Then she left. Really cannot wrap my head around it.

It's been explained to me as, once the decision has been made, and the thing that has troubling them has been decided and the pressure has been lifted they can go ahead and enjoy themselves.    if that makes any sense.

It's like struggling and struggling with something and the feeling of relief when the (self induced) end is in sight that a feeling of happiness is generated.
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« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2015, 06:01:17 AM »

 

Hmm... well... I could have sworn that we had some articles on "push Pull" behavior.  "Go away/come closer"  "I hate you/don't leave me".

There are various names.  Anyway... .I couldn't find anything in our lessons about it.  If anyone else can help... please point us to a good resource.

Anyway... .she "pulls" you towards her with lovey dovey stuff... then "pushes" you away when she runs away.  Somewhere in her mind you are supposed to "chase" after her to win her back.

A dysfunctional way of figuring out if you still care. 

So... .you don't want to push her further away (that would be the extreme boundary you were asking about... .but you also don't want to chase after her begging her to come back... .swearing the is the best thing ever... .boo hooh... .

Try to take a reasonable... .centered... .calm approach to let her know she is missed... and has some responsibilities to take care of to "get back in " the house.

This should calm the swings from one side to another... .certainly shouldn't make them worse.

However... .there is always a but... .my guess is some other things are at play here too.  With the hometown going from black to white, there are probably childhood memories and some other things going on. 

How does she "normally" deal with your special needs son?  If there is such a thing as normal...

Many times the real answer is not "one" BPD behavior... .several things get mashed together in "dysfunction soup".  Just like it's impossible to separate two different soup cans that are mixed together... .you still need to know what was in those cans before they got mixed.


I did see one thing for you to look at in lessons.  I would "go for" the hospitalization thing... .but if she only becomes agreeable to some sort of structured separation with regular counseling.  It could work out ok.

The key in any situation is that there is a counselor/program that she is "submitting to" or "participating in".  In other words... really trying.


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

Hang in there... !

FF
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« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2015, 07:39:01 AM »

Notwendy,

Much of what you said resonates here. MIL does the same thing with the come get your stuff/no you can't have it. W does live in the grass-is-greener fantasy land. And the kids have figured out mom does not usually mean what she says.

babyducks,

The more I think about it, maybe it was more of a play to get me to agree to her idea of a temporary (or rather, therapeutic) separation vs my "this is the end" approach.

FF,

Push/pull is all she knows, she is a master at it. Yes, she wants me to chase her and reassure her I love her. But like both you and Skip have said, don't fall for it, and I am not.

As for the home town, I think she is seeking a period in time rather than a place. Gonna be disappointed.

She is agreeable to a structured separation; that is what she has wanted and even begged me to do for weeks. She is still wanting that, but I need to insert some terms of my own which are close to what you suggested.

Thank you. The link to therapeutic separation is a big eye opener. Looks much like what she wants me to do. She keeps saying this is to fix her and get mentally well enough to fix us.
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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2015, 07:48:22 AM »

 

In my opinion... .the key is to get her in a good situation so that there is someone else as the "authority figure"

In my case it was the family therapist.

Be open to family t, versus MC... or perhaps both.

There are lots of dynamics at play here... .

One thing to avoid... ."making her" do therapy where you are the enforcer.  Usually better for you to continue to go to therapy and let her be the one to drop out... .vice her talking you into dropping out.

My wife threatened to stop going many times... .flat out said she wouldn't be there.  I expressed understanding and sympathy... .and expressed to her that I would be attending our appointment to work on my part of the relationship.

No begging... .no pleading... I just continued on.  She showed up... .every time.

One issue... .Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)   planning to have kids around while she is packing and leaving.  Even if it is just for her to pack up. 

Just feels weird... .  I don't want to use the kids as a lever... .but I don't want to needlessly expose them to known hostile situations.

I also wouldn't make their absence about her.  Find a playdate or something for them to do. 

The attitude is that their life and your life will continue and not "react" to her whims.  Kids going on playdates is normal.  Get your wife loaded up... and then meet kids for quick visit... .

It's good that your kids realize that mom says weird stuff.

A couple weeks ago S15 "told" mommy that she wants "ranting"... .she actually took it pretty well... dialed it down a bit.

FF

FF
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« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2015, 08:02:50 AM »

One thing to avoid... ."making her" do therapy where you are the enforcer.  Usually better for you to continue to go to therapy and let her be the one to drop out... .vice her talking you into dropping out.

One issue... .Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)   planning to have kids around while she is packing and leaving.  Even if it is just for her to pack up. 

She is continuing therapy with her T up here by phone, found another one in home town, and she is the one who wants to go to MC. I was the one who said, "no, if you move we are done." I have moderated that position thanks to some good advice here. 

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

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« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2015, 09:26:52 AM »

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

Who's grandma... .mom... .your's or hers.  I'm guessing yours.

FF
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« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2015, 11:50:06 AM »

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

Who's grandma... .mom... .your's or hers.  I'm guessing yours.

FF

Mine. If it was hers, one of them would be dead and the other in prison. MIL is serious BPD, as well.
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« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2015, 12:47:27 PM »

  I'm impressed with how you are holding up and thinking this through.  So don't take any of my comments on your plans as me saying they are wrong. I think it would be better for kids not to say hey in the beginning.  That means there would be two "leavings" to work through. IMO, moving stuff out like this is adult business and should be left to adults.  Over to you if you want to help her.  I would advise you to be around to make sure nothing disappears that you have an issue with. However, I also think that her coming back and wanting to see kids is healthy so I am advocating that she spend time with them.  Last thought for now: , let her own this decision, .   If she tries to say "mommy and daddy have decided xyz, "  be ready for a calm counter to this.  :)o not cover for her.  :)o not persecute her in front of the kids either. I think you are fine to express your desires, ":)addy would like our family to stay together"  I think this is ok.  Stay away from "Mommy has decided to leave" Basically, don't let her steal your voice to kids, and as painful as it is, don't try to steal hers either. Hang tough dude!  Lots to think through,                                        

FF
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« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2015, 06:30:50 PM »

Staff only

This topic has been continued: bpdfamily.com/message_board/topic=286204
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