An unreasonable Boundary? (part 1)

[Cole]

BPD/bipolar wife moved out of state yesterday. Long story behind it, but basically she has come to the realization she is in her words "bat crap crazy" and feels very guilty over how she treats me and the kids. She kissed me and said she loves me before she left, crying and saying she is not sure this is the right thing to do.

Her plan: She moves out so she can get healthy. We will stay in touch, talk every day, and spend weekends together either here or at her apartment. We will look for a marriage counselor who can see us Friday evenings or Saturdays.

My boundary: If you move we are done. No contact except for matters pertaining to kids and finances. We will work out a visitation schedule for the kids. My thought on it is that I do not see how moving is going to help her get healthy, since her doctors are all back here.

Is this an unreasonable boundary? Am I drawing the line in the sand in the wrong place?

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[Notwendy]

Boundaries reflect our values, so if they are true to ourselves, they are not unreasonable. They can be individual. For instance, someone who is devoutly religious may have a boundary to only date/marry people of the same religion. For someone who is not religious, this boundary would seem unnecessary.

Someone can have a boundary on fidelity in a relationship. If the partner is not faithful, then that person may have to choose between the boundary and the relationship altogether. Someone else may decide an open relationship is OK.

Boundaries are personal and a boundary may seem unreasonable to someone else, but if it is important to you, then you determine whether or not is it unreasonable.

However, the problem with boundaries is if you set one that is unenforceable. If you can't enforce your boundary, then it is not effective and the person learns that your boundaries aren't meaningful. Boundaries made in the heat of the moment, or under emotional duress may not be enforceable. I remember coming home late from a date in high school. My father was angry and shouted " you will not see that boy again". Well, he was in many of my classes, so I would see him at school. That was an impossible boundary and I giggled at it. It was also not reasonable. The relationship was not serious and we were both good kids. We were friends, had all the same friends.

This is a boundary that was made in the heat of the moment, and it didn't address the issue which was not the boy- I missed curfew. The consequences of that could have been being grounded for a weekend, or having to do some chores. It was not actually a boundary but an angry reaction in the moment.

So how does this story apply to your boundary? It would make sense that you are angry and upset about your wife's decision. Is this a boundary that is made from the heart, reflects your true self, your feelings, or is it made in the heat of the moment? Is it based on the actual problem or a "in the moment" reaction to your wife's decision. Is it part of a battle of wills- if you do this, then I will do that.

Is it enforceable? Can you really limit the conversation to those times and topics? Is this a NC limiting statement? For instance, your wife could call at any time "about the kids" and then switch and bait in the middle of the conversation. It would be hard to ignore calls and texts that start with " I need to talk about the kids".

The limits of the conversations would have to come within you. You will need to establish your own boundaries within conversations. Boundaries do not even have to be stated, you would just begin to enforce them when the conversation drifts into topics you don't wish to discuss.

If you state this boundary, your wife will likely test it, and if you go back on it, then what you say becomes meaningless.

Is this boundary for you or being said as a means to control her decision to move out. If it is to control her, then it isn't a boundary. Boundaries are meant for us, not them.

You can decide to not say anything. You also don't have to agree with her wishes. What you can say is that, you really don't know what to do in this situation and you need time to think about it.

You can then decide what your boundaries are. One boundary may be not to rescue her emotionally, and allow her to experience the consequences of her decision. Her decision may also be in the moment.

I don't think it is possible to tell you if your boundary is unreasonable, but you may want to think this one through.

[Skip]

Giving this the litmus test... .

If you're done, wouldn't you would file for divorce? Change the locks. Isolate your half of the property?

Is going "No contact", more like a silent treatment - punishment?  You take away from me, I take away from you?

I can't imagine your frustration - so I get it.  I can't imagine having this (or the threat of this) hanging over a marriage.  I understand that you don't want to enable.

What will be more true here?  An emotionally "resigned" filing for divorce or a tense 30 days of emotionally charged silent treatment?  Or do you just give her space for three weeks and see what develops?

[babyducks]

Hi Cole,

If I remember right your wife did this a couple of months ago right?   Left and then returned in two days?  and about two weeks ago she had a pretty serious episode and signed herself out AMA from partial hospitalization program.   I want to make sure I have the back story correct.

I like what NotWendy said about boundaries reflecting our values.   

I think if you can state what value this boundary is protecting that will help with you feeling comfortable with the decision.

'ducks

[Cole]

Is this boundary for you or being said as a means to control her decision to move out. If it is to control her, then it isn't a boundary. Boundaries are meant for us, not them.

I suppose it is a little of each. It is for me, because I am so worn out with her duality and back/forth behavior. I can't take anymore.

And part of it is to try to control her decision to move out. I put two crying kids to bed last night because they miss mom and feel abandoned. I did not want her to move out for this and other reasons.      

You can decide to not say anything. You also don't have to agree with her wishes. What you can say is that, you really don't know what to do in this situation and you need time to think about it.

You can then decide what your boundaries are. One boundary may be not to rescue her emotionally, and allow her to experience the consequences of her decision. Her decision may also be in the moment.

I don't think it is possible to tell you if your boundary is unreasonable, but you may want to think this one through.

And letting her experience the consequences of her decision is another part of it. My first thought was, ":)on't want to be married anymore? OK, let's see how you do without me."

Giving this the litmus test... .

If you're done, wouldn't you would file for divorce? Change the locks. Isolate your half of the property?

Is going "No contact", more like a silent treatment - punishment?  You take away from me, I take away from you?

I can't imagine your frustration - so I get it.  I can't imagine having this (or the threat of this) hanging over a marriage.  I understand that you don't want to enable.

What will be more true here?  An emotionally "resigned" filing for divorce or a tense 30 days of emotionally charged silent treatment?  Or do you just give her space for three weeks and see what develops?

I feel backed into a corner where I have two choices: continue to let her have her way (one foot in and one foot out of the marriage) or say enough is enough, I can't take anymore.

If I let her continue to have her way with bouncing back and forth, in and out, I leave myself open to more craziness. More not knowing what the heck she will do next, because she is really unpredictable and illogical in her thinking. It is hard on me, and even more so for the kids.

If I say enough is enough, then filing for divorce is the next step. This is not what I want, but feels like it is my only option.

NC seemed like a way to say I am not doing this anymore. Let's see how you do without me in your life. Is running around with your HS friends more important than your family? If you are fine with NC, I know to just end the marriage.

Am I off track in my thinking? I feel that if I do things her way, I am just enabling more of this erratic behavior.

Hi Cole,

If I remember right your wife did this a couple of months ago right?   Left and then returned in two days?  and about two weeks ago she had a pretty serious episode and signed herself out AMA from partial hospitalization program.   I want to make sure I have the back story correct.

I like what NotWendy said about boundaries reflecting our values.    

I think if you can state what value this boundary is protecting that will help with you feeling comfortable with the decision.

'ducks

Yes, you have the story correct. Following from that point:

She went to both our family doctor and her T last week, both of whom told her to go back to partial hospitalization. She refused.

She was very loving and affectionate for several days before leaving. Said "I love you" often, kissed me every chance she got and even initiated intimacy several times, which we have not done in a long time. I thought she had realized she was making a mistake and was changing her mind. But she left anyways, kissing me and telling me how much she loves me and how important I am to her before she walked out the door. Quite honestly, I am baffled.

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

This is just another in a line of poor decisions she has made based on trying to fill a need with a job offer. If someone offered her a job clearing land mines in Iraq, she would take it just because someone offered it to her. She takes a job, it validates her, then she quits. If she had been offered the other local job she wanted instead, we might not be having this conversation.    



 

   

[babyducks]

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

You have been through a lot.  The back and forth would have to be taking a toll on you and the kids.   It sounds very rational to want to put protection in place for your mental health and the kids mental health.

Since the devil is always in the details, do you think you can hold this boundary.   If she calls in two days again saying I want to come back,  how do you envision that playing out?

[Cole]

I guess the boundary I am trying to protect is my own sanity.

You have been through a lot.  The back and forth would have to be taking a toll on you and the kids.   It sounds very rational to want to put protection in place for your mental health and the kids mental health.

Since the devil is always in the details, do you think you can hold this boundary.   If she calls in two days again saying I want to come back,  how do you envision that playing out?

A big part of me would want to say yes, come home.

I suppose I would have to phrase it as, "No. Not unless you are willing to attend the treatment all your doctors want you to attend (back to the partial hospitalization program) and MC."

She has said several times in the past couple weeks that she thinks our separation will be a failure, that we will miss each other so much it will not last long. She also has made all the arrangements to move, packed up most of her belongings, and left even though I said I would be through if she did this again. 

I need to list out all her possible actions from here and determine how I should respond to each.

I just don't know what those responses should be. 

[babyducks]

boundary enforcement can be difficult.   intermittent re-enforcement is not your friend. 

are you willing to reject phone calls?   requests for money?   change the locks?   I am not trying to badger you when you are down and hurting... .   all of us describe 'done' differently.   I've found done to be an emotional word coming from my exhaustion.   what does 'done' look like to you?

you are in an extraordinary situation, nobody typically has to walk through something like this... .   

[Cole]

boundary enforcement can be difficult.   intermittent re-enforcement is not your friend.  

are you willing to reject phone calls?   requests for money?   change the locks?   I am not trying to badger you when you are down and hurting... .  all of us describe 'done' differently.   I've found done to be an emotional word coming from my exhaustion.   what does 'done' look like to you?

you are in an extraordinary situation, nobody typically has to walk through something like this... . 

You are not badgering; I need help thinking through this and appreciate your help and candor.  

I will not take a phone call. She can leave a message, and if it has to do with the kids or money, I will return it. But the subject will be limited to that topic. If she wants to talk about feelings, I will remind her that this was her idea and I am not ready to talk right now (which is true).    

Transferred all but a little for day to day expenses from our joint account to a new account under my name only. Every penny in there came from my paychecks; I am not financing this shindig for her. She will have to figure it out herself. She has a small paycheck from the job she had and quit earlier this month, she can cash and use that.  

Changing the locks is a no-no at this point according to my attorney. Should this go to divorce court, I have a major upper hand in that she has, of her own accord, abandoned the family and the home.

Yes, done is an emotional word for exhausted. The more I examine it, the less sure I am that I know what done truly looks like.

Her plan at this point is to leave work and come directly here Friday, stay the night, continue packing Saturday, and then we go as a family to my daughter's girl scout event Sunday. I really do not know how I feel about that. It is easy for us to ignore each other from a distance, but put us in the same house and we are glued together, even if we are mad. We just enjoy being together that much when she is not disregulated.  

[Cat Familiar]

Wow, Cole. I'm so sorry.  

If I remember correctly, it seems earlier this spring you were trying to set a date that if her behavior didn't change, you'd take steps towards divorce. It seems like you've given her so many second chances.

It's hard to let go totally when there's still some good stuff left in the relationship when dysregulations and bad behaviors haven't taken over entirely.

I don't have a lot of experience with ending relationships, as mine have lasted a long time. What I do know is that when I ended my first marriage, I had set a couple of boundaries I would not compromise and when they were broken, I knew I was done. I haven't regretted that for a minute, though it was really hard getting out of that marriage. We didn't have children, so that made it much easier.

Keep posting and imagine yourself next year, in five years, in ten, in twenty. Ask your future selves what they want.  

[Skip]

You want her to stop doing this and come home, right?

Then don't get into an emotional war with her. But stand firm. These are not the same thing.

Think more in terms of carrot and stick.

An emotional war is twig and twig.

Remember the Karpman Triangle. Don't be a persecutor (punitive, punishment, etc.).  :)o be asssertive.

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on."

File (stick), be accepting (carrot), and be firm (she can't come back without and agreement).  Let her pursue you (don't go at her).

Make sense?

[Cole]

If I remember correctly, it seems earlier this spring you were trying to set a date that if her behavior didn't change, you'd take steps towards divorce. It seems like you've given her so many second chances.

Yes, good memory. She did change behavior for a while and was working hard to be a better wife and mother. The flip side is that she has come to the realization of how horrible she has treated me and the kids, so now she is leaving because she feels so guilty.

She has asked my dozens of times over the last few weeks, "What is wrong with me?"   

"Why am I such a freak?"

"Why can't I control my anger and actions?"

My stock answer has been that I love her unconditionally and that she needs serious professional help to answer those questions. But running away is the path she chose. 

[Cole]

You want her to stop doing this and come home, right?

Then don't get into an emotional war with her. But stand firm. These are not the same thing.

Think more in terms of carrot and stick.

An emotional war is twig and twig.

Remember the Karpman Triangle. Don't be a persecutor (punitive, punishment, etc.).  :)o be asssertive.

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on."

File (stick), be accepting (carrot), and be firm (she can't come back without and agreement).  Let her pursue you (don't go at her).

Make sense?

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

Do not have any plan to pursue her. If she wants to sleep with me in my room or be close Friday, she is out of luck. She will have to agree to come back with an agreement first. And the first item on the agreement is to do what her doctors are telling her she needs to do.  

[Cole]

Thank you to Notwendy, Skip, babyducks, and Cat Familiar for your input. There is a little girl who misses mom and an autistic boy who does not understand what is happening who will never know you, but would appreciate your time in offering your help.

The most important thing in the world to me right now is finding a way to hold my family together, if it is even possible. But even after reading and rereading this thread, I am still not sure what to do. One one side, I do not want to appear weak. On the other, it seems clear from things posted here that I am being counterproductive by saying, "if you move, I am divorcing you."

So, knowing the BPD mindset that I am up against, do I agree to her separation plan?

[Skip]

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

[babyducks]

hi Cole,

nice to see you are hanging in there with us.

for me being in a BPD relationship often means finding a way to walk down the middle of the road.   BPD pushes behavior to the extremes,  black and white thinking often creates situations that appear binary, with either/or solutions.  thinking creatively out of the box isn't easy but it can be fruitful.

I can completely understand not wanting to enable her separation plan, as she is leaving not just you and the kids but her medical support network.   From what you describe this appears less a separation and more a running away?   let me know if I got that right.

It appears a plan destined to fail,  so I would plan for the failure.   I would have to carefully consider my deeply ingrained habit to rescue.    Getting out of that freaking Karpman Triangle would be a good thing.   No rescuing, no persecuting.  

I use the Yale communication model a lot.   mostly because it helps me organize my thoughts.

When ___________ (event happens) I feel_________ so I will_______________.

The nice thing about the Yale model is it helps me drill down into the finer details.   I can start with the higher level event and approach it several ways.      For me it looks like this.

When a verbal disagreement breaks out, I feel overwhelmed, swamped, attacked and rushed, so I will take 30 seconds  to step back and gather my scattered thoughts.  

my two cents is to focus on you and the kids today... . 

'ducks

[Cole]

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

Skip,

I am still trying to understand your analogy. I am so overwhelmed cannot think strait right now.

I am not sure what the carrot should even be.

She sent me a text first thing this AM that she wishes it has not come to this, so I know it is bothering her, too.

for me being in a BPD relationship often means finding a way to walk down the middle of the road.   BPD pushes behavior to the extremes,  black and white thinking often creates situations that appear binary, with either/or solutions.  thinking creatively out of the box isn't easy but it can be fruitful.

Her black and white thinking seems to have pushed me to do the same. She goes so far one way that I push hard the opposite direction, trying to bring things to the middle. Does not work.

From what you describe this appears less a separation and more a running away?   let me know if I got that right.

It appears a plan destined to fail,  so I would plan for the failure.   I would have to carefully consider my deeply ingrained habit to rescue.    Getting out of that freaking Karpman Triangle would be a good thing.   No rescuing, no persecuting. 

She has stated she wants this to be a temporary separation so she can "get healthy", though I do not know how and she cannot articulate it. She has also said she thinks our separation will be a miserable failure because we will miss each other so much. 

[Notwendy]

I will second the middle of the road approach and not being reactive.

One of the "laundry list" items that we read at ACOA (includes FOO dysfunction even without Alcohol)  groups is " we became reactors rather than actors"

This statement really touched me as I felt that I was being reactive, and in this case, it let others' emotions take charge of my life. I needed to be centered and act according to me, regardless of what others were doing.

Not easy with kids. What you want is to not have their mother leave because it may cause them pain. I understand this, but if it is her decision to do so, then she is responsible for the consequences.

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad.

I can't speak for a child with autism who will not understand this, but one thing I do know about autism is the need for routine, constancy, and same-ness in environment, otherwise there will be anxiety. I would try to keep his world as constant as possible- which means staying in the same home, same school, same schedule and I would advocate for this in case your wife wants to have him back and forth between two homes. I do know of divorced parents who do this, and I think they make an effort to have the same toys, routines and such. This is something to discuss if she does go through with it, but I have a hunch she may not.

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important, as well as aunts and mothers of some of my friends who stood in as mother role models.  

In the long run, my mother's behavior impacted our relationship with her. We were closer emotionally to dad. This isn't what you want, or what any parent would want- we want our kids to be close to both parents- but if one parent is inconsistent, or the cause of emotional hurts for the child, then the child will make up his or her own mind.

I think family therapy for the kids can help. They can do play therapy with little ones, help them with their feelings.

[flourdust]

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad. 

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important,

Notwendy, I can't tell you how much I needed to read this today.  I know it wasn't meant for me but - thank you.

[Cole]

I grew up with BPD mom. I think the threat of divorce was raised many times. I think at some point she took off somewhere for a few days. The memories are blurry. She both painted me black, and as a teen took me on as a confidant (too much TMI) would talk about divorcing my dad.  

How do kids respond to this? Well, for me, when I was little it scared me and I cried. As I got older, and these things happened again, it was like " ho hum here we go again" or "get this over with and do it already".

The impact my father made on us by being a stable constant was important,

Notwendy, I can't tell you how much I needed to read this today.  I know it wasn't meant for me but - thank you.

And certainly puts into perspective what I must expect of her moving forward (if we do move forward) for the good of the kids.

[Cole]

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?

[babyducks]

I liked what you said about her pushing so hard in one direction and you pushing in the opposite trying to bring things back to the center.   I like that so much I may borrow it.     I do it too.

Finding my own center and letting my partner orbit around me makes me feel more peaceful.   I have the comfort of saying and truly feeling that I did what was right for me, and I did it in a compassionate and caring way.

You have mentioned what she thinks she can get out of this separation. I may have missed you saying what you feel could be beneficial?   Anything?

[Notwendy]

I'm glad I could help.

My parents never did get divorced. After a long marriage ( >55 years) my father - who lived to be an old man- died. My mother is able to live on her own, thanks to his financial planning. He made sure she would be financially secure.

Despite the divorce threats- mostly on her part, a few on his, they stayed together. I wondered if they would separate after the kids left home, but they didn't. Although their relationship had its drama, it seems that they were bonded.

However, had they been divorced, I think we would have learned to handle that one as well. I am sure it would have brought different results and probably different challenges. As far as this goes, I think parents have to make the best decision they can at the time. I don't think it is a decision that is all good or all bad, but still one may be better or worse than the other for different couples. As parents, we want to protect our kids, but we can only do our best with that too.

I wouldn't say that we kids were not effected by the issues in our FOO- we were. I think we all have co-dependent tendencies. But I will emphasize the impact of a stable parent. Although my dad had co-dependent traits, he was the constant in our lives. We would not be who we are had he not. Although we did vilify mom growing up, learning how to forgive her and be compassionate has been a lesson too, and a good one to learn.

As a parent myself, my kids are one of the biggest motivators for me to work on me- my issues, my co-dependency so that perhaps I can do a better job of parenting them and model emotionally healthy behavior.

[Skip]

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?

Yes.

[Cole]

I suppose that is what I am trying to accomplish, only using NC except for practical matters as the stick.  

What is the carrot?

OK, I think I know where you are going with this. The carrot has to be a reason to move back and get the help she needs. But I cannot offer that if I am NC.

Can't offer a box of cookies if the bakery is closed. Am I on track?

Yes.

I will print this out, put a gold star on it and hang it on the fridge.

[Skip]

These are emotional and difficult times. Try to stay grounded. Keep talking it through.

[Cole]

These are emotional and difficult times. Try to stay grounded. Keep talking it through.

Appreciate your help and will keep working on it. I realized earlier that the extreme black and white thinking of my BPDw has caused me to do the same as a way of trying to counter balance it out.   

She has begged me to "meet her half way" and agree to talk to her every night, see her on weekends, and see a MC on Friday evenings or Saturdays when she comes up. I think my refusal has just pushed her farther along in believing I do not love her.

[Cat Familiar]

Cole,

It's obvious to those of us who have followed your story that you do indeed love your wife. You've tried so hard and you just seem emotionally exhausted. I totally get that. Who wouldn't be if they were in your shoes and having to put up with all her incongruities and trying to maintain a stable home for two children? You've certainly been tested by fire, both in your work career and your home life. You know how strong you are. Is there anything you can do now to take care of you? I know you've got a lot on your plate, but it seems like you need some nourishment--maybe in the form of working out, spending some time with buddies, enjoying a game with a friend. I hope you've got family who can look after the kids for an evening or two while you do something that feels good for you.

Cat 

[Cole]

Cole,

It's obvious to those of us who have followed your story that you do indeed love your wife. You've tried so hard and you just seem emotionally exhausted. I totally get that. Who wouldn't be if they were in your shoes and having to put up with all her incongruities and trying to maintain a stable home for two children? You've certainly been tested by fire, both in your work career and your home life. You know how strong you are. Is there anything you can do now to take care of you? I know you've got a lot on your plate, but it seems like you need some nourishment--maybe in the form of working out, spending some time with buddies, enjoying a game with a friend. I hope you've got family who can look after the kids for an evening or two while you do something that feels good for you.

Cat 

Thank you, CF. Emotionally exhausted is the correct term to use here. She is coming with a truck for the rest of her stuff this weekend. Then, I am taking time off with the kids over Thanksgiving to relax and be a dad. It will be interesting to see if she tries to get me to invite her for the holiday... .   

[Cole]

You have mentioned what she thinks she can get out of this separation. I may have missed you saying what you feel could be beneficial?   Anything?

I really do not know. A break from the crazy would be nice. And she cannot realize she misses me if we are not apart. (already texted she misses me a little while ago.)

But the other side of it is being a single parent with a very demanding job an hour away, a big property to maintain, an elderly mother and aunt to look after, and two kids, one with autistic spectrum disorders including ODD (like parenting 10). 

I will have to really try hard not to become resentful of her having abandoned her responsibilities.