An unreasonable Boundary? (part 1)

[Cole]

She just called to talk to the kids. Says she misses me, this is making her sick, and she can't eat. Very cold about her wonderful new job. I think the novelty is already wearing off. The last one lasted 4 days before she quit.

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

I told her I would have to think about it, that I would have certain terms to be met. She said OK.

I guess we will see from here. Day 2 and I think she is starting to feel the burn of being away from the family. The more she feels the need to come back, the more ammo I have to get her to go to the psychiatric program all her doctors and therapists have told her she needs to go to.     

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[AsGoodAsItGets]

Really routing for you

[babyducks]

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

Does that work for you?   Do you feel comfortable with her ideas?

[Notwendy]

Are you able to hire some help with the house and kids?

Growing up, we had housekeepers and nannies. This had pros and cons. As kids, we didn't like that our mother didn't spend time raising us. We didn't understand why we had to have nannies take care of us when mom didn't work outside the home. We had no idea that this was the arrangement made so that my father could go to work and know that we were being taken care of. We just didn't understand why we didn't have a mom who cooked and took care of us, like our friends' moms ( note that this was before the era where more women worked and child care was common).

It was very important to me to be the kind of mom that I wished I had. I no doubt idealized this to some extent. However, I found that asking my H to help with the kids sometimes didn't go very well. He would get angry at me. So, I didn't ask him, much out of fear but also, because it would not be good for the kids to have an angry resentful parent. It was a dilemma, because, mom's need a break sometimes, - so I did make use of sitters, pre-schools, if I needed some time to myself. I didn't feel right about this, because of how I grew up and also, because my friends didn't use sitters as often. However, I noticed that if they wanted to do something in the evenings, like go to the gym or a women's group, their husbands pitched in so that they could do something that they enjoyed. Mine did not.


As an adult, I don't think I am any worse off for my father getting some help. In fact, I think it was a good thing that a warm loving person attended to our needs as children. I don't think my kids are worse off either. I was still the main caretaker- I did plenty of holding, feeding, changing and parenting. However, I was also able to take a break sometimes, and that allowed me to recharge and be a good caretaker to them.

I mention this because, as a single dad with kids, a job, a home, and elderly family members that you take care of, getting some help will let you take care of yourself and may also help even when your wife returns home.

I like the idea of pychiatric care. My mother is at the severe range of BPD. I know that my parents tried psychiatry, but in their era, not much was available or known about BPD.

[Cole]

Still wants to see each other on weekends, talk every day, and go to MC. I asked her why. She said so we can reconcile.

Does that work for you?   :)o you feel comfortable with her ideas?

Not without a lot of stipulations including psychiatric care, a set schedule, and a timeline. No improvement in X number of months, them we reevaluate if we should continue.

Do not know how long this is going to last at this point. I could here the "what the hell am I doing this for?" in her voice last night. She is very stubborn and will continue to do something she knows is wrong for her to a point, then flip the other way. I am preparing for the flip, should it occur.

I sent her an email outlining her share of the bills, telling her she is now responsible for her health insurance, and asking for her input on sharing the kids at Thanksgiving and Christmas. We will see what a reality check does at this point.

[Cole]

Are you able to hire some help with the house and kids?

Yes, I am looking. Maybe a nice looking 20-something nannie just to drive her nuts.

We just didn't understand why we didn't have a mom who cooked and took care of us, like our friends' moms ( note that this was before the era where more women worked and child care was common).

 

I get that. W bounces back and forth between super mom and staring at the computer while the kids and the house go to hell. Kids love the former and, unfortunately, used to the latter.  

She just called crying, saying her back and neck are all cramped up and hurt really bad. (Happens when she is stressed). I told her I am sorry she feels so bad, but I have to get the kids out the door. 

[formflier]

 

Cole,

I'm rooting for you! 

She has swung to an extreme... .make sure you don't swing to the other extreme.

This assumes you are open to reconcile... .my gut tells me that you are.

She is grasping for control... .give her some... but not all.

My gut says talking every day is not good... .the MC thing is great!

In other words... .don't just sign off on what she wants... .just like she shouldn't sign off on everything that you want.

There is a solution in the middle.

Perhaps an agreement to "follow her doctors recommendations" and then you talk every day.

You likely won't get the agreement you want during the first negotiation (if you think of it this way... you may stay more grounded)

Babysteps are ok... .as long as you maintain your stick... .and your carrot... .AND YOUR RESOLVE AND ASSERTIVENESS

To be clear... NC seems like a swing to extreme... .

Her walking back into your life like nothing ever happened seems unhealthy as well.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Hang in there!

FF

[Cole]

Cole,

I'm rooting for you! 

She has swung to an extreme... .make sure you don't swing to the other extreme.

This assumes you are open to reconcile... .my gut tells me that you are.

She is grasping for control... .give her some... but not all.

My gut says talking every day is not good... .the MC thing is great!

In other words... .don't just sign off on what she wants... .just like she shouldn't sign off on everything that you want.

There is a solution in the middle.

Perhaps an agreement to "follow her doctors recommendations" and then you talk every day.

You likely won't get the agreement you want during the first negotiation (if you think of it this way... you may stay more grounded)

Babysteps are ok... .as long as you maintain your stick... .and your carrot... .AND YOUR RESOLVE AND ASSERTIVENESS

To be clear... NC seems like a swing to extreme... .

Her walking back into your life like nothing ever happened seems unhealthy as well.

The solution lies somewhere in the middle.

Hang in there!

FF

FF,

Good point on the control. At this point, I think she is doing this just to show she has some. So, I am being supportive, but not telling her she is doing the wrong thing or asking her to change her mind.

I sent her a list of things we need to handle, such as finances, who gets the kids when, etc... .this morning and I think it really affected her. She just texted me that she left work (day 3) to go to a doctor. She is so stressed out that her back and neck are seized up. I feel so bad for her, but there is nothing I can do to take care of her a state away.   

[Cole]

Called me this AM and told me her back and neck are all cramped up from stress and she just needed to talk to me. I knew from experience she would not make it through the day. Sure enough, she was on the way to the ER before lunch with severe arm, back and neck pain. They ruled out cardiac issues, but had to put her on morphine and muscle relaxers and admit her over night. This happens to her when she is stressed, but I have never seen it so bad as today.

I figured she would not make it through the work week before she either found a reason to quit or made herself sick. So, we will see if she can keep this job after today or even tries. And if she loses the job, what she will do from there.

[formflier]

 

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"


Do you know the procedure for her to self admit herself to the hospitalization program that her doctor recommended?


Do you have a good r/s with her dr... .the one that recommended inpatient therapy.

FF

[Cole]

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Do you know the procedure for her to self admit herself to the hospitalization program that her doctor recommended?

Do you have a good r/s with her dr... .the one that recommended inpatient therapy.

Procedure is easy for partial hospitalization program. Call, tell them the name of the referring doctor (in this case, there are 4 of them) and show up Monday morning.

She called a minute ago to tell me there is a doctor coming in to see her this evening, but not sure what kind or for what. I am hoping psych evaluation.

[formflier]

 

Fill in the blanks of what skip suggested... .you can keep editing up until time to say it.

You know that is going to be here sooner... .rather than later.

If there is any chance you can get her doctor to call out there and cin those doctors... .or get those doctors to tell her to go to the hospitalization program.

one good thing about your story is that she is somewhat self aware... .she wants to be fixed.  Focus your solutions around that.

REFUSE any of her solutions that don't go in that direction.

I like Skips thing.  I think there is a middle step before doing that... .before saying "I need to move on... "

I like saying would you like to do A... .or B... .

Note:  You are fine with a or b because both options lead to her in treatment.

So, "Honey, would you like to do the hospitalization program where you stay overnights and can focus on you or would you like to do the one where you come home on weekends and try out your new skills.

Either choices leads to a good place.

Last:  Have you ever found a way that works to influence you wife's decision making in a good way?

FF

[Cole]

Last:  Have you ever found a way that works to influence you wife's decision making in a good way?

FF

Let me put that in an analogy just for Form Flyer. Influencing her decisions is like flying an E-2C Hawkeye that has no rudder, elevator, or aileron control but is stuck at full throttle. Her decision making is full speed with no controls and there is not much you can do but wait for the horrific crash.  

Good advice on filling in the blanks. I have been thinking that one through since he suggested it yesterday.

[babyducks]

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Here is my suggested language, hack away at it.   

What I need to go forward from this point is a solid commitment to the recommended hospitalization program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue this separation I will allow your decisions will be your own to make happen.


Hey - no picking on the E-2C's... .we are all quite fond of them.

[formflier]

 

Ah yes... .that would be quite a ride in an E-2... . 

I would take out commitment... .

I like the word "complete" the recommended hospitalization program... .or hospitalization program recommended by your doctor (it's not you... .it's the doc that is the expert)

We get something on here that we like... and then you need to practice... .think about how it will sound.

Think about doing it over the phone or in person (which do you think would work better)... .is there someone that can watch the kids?

Lots of things to think about... .this is called planning for success.

FF

[babyducks]

What is your gameplan for "I'm sick and need to come home?"

"______, what I need to go forward is this (and make a reasonable, balanced offer for the kids, you, and her).  If we can't do that, I need to move on." (Yeah, that's good. But I can't take credit. It is Skip's.)

Here is my suggested language, hack away at it.  

What I need to go forward from this point is a solid commitment to the recommended hospitalization program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue this separation I will allow your decisions to be your own to make happen.

Hack number 2

What I need to go forward is a completion of the doctor's recommended program.  I can help you transition into that here.   If you continue the separation I will allow your decisions to be your own to make happen.

[Cole]

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile. 

[formflier]

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile. 

"Visit next summer... " is bait... .don't take it...

She may be serious... .but nothing good comes of thinking about it... .or responding to it now.

Questions to think about.

How often should she be talking to kids?  If she is going to leave you at home... .she needs to leave it alone so you can parent.  I realize this is early... .but start thinking about this.  Every day seems too much...   Be thinking about it.

Do you want the kids around on Saturday to watch her pack.  If the moving is traumitizing (as you have described)... .I would find them somewhere else to be.  Then... .when she is ready to go... .maybe you guys meet at chuck e cheese... .or some other public place... .let them spend some time together... .and move along.

Boy... .that sucks to even think about.  But... .what will have least impact on kids... .and give you most control over situation to extricate kids if it gets weird?

FF

[Cole]

I have time to think about it. She just called and made it very clear she still plans to move the rest of her things Saturday. Even told the kids the place is close to the pool for when they visit next summer. Don't really know how serious she is about trying to reconcile.  

"Visit next summer... " is bait... .don't take it...

She may be serious... .but nothing good comes of thinking about it... .or responding to it now.

Questions to think about.

How often should she be talking to kids?  If she is going to leave you at home... .she needs to leave it alone so you can parent.  I realize this is early... .but start thinking about this.  Every day seems too much...  Be thinking about it.

Do you want the kids around on Saturday to watch her pack.  If the moving is traumitizing (as you have described)... .I would find them somewhere else to be.  Then... .when she is ready to go... .maybe you guys meet at chuck e cheese... .or some other public place... .let them spend some time together... .and move along.

Boy... .that sucks to even think about.  But... .what will have least impact on kids... .and give you most control over situation to extricate kids if it gets weird?

FF

The pool/next summer comment was said to our son and in reference to what she liked to do when she was a teen. She did not know he had put it on speaker, so it is not bait. More likely fantasy. She can't relive her childhood, so she wants to relive it through them. Right now her home town is the most wonderful place in the world. A year ago it was the worst place in the world. Black and white thinking from a pwBPD... .who would have thought.

She is already packed, just needs to move out furniture and load up the boxes. Kids watched her pack last week. If it gets bad Saturday I can send them up the field and through the woods to grandma's house pretty quick.    

She sent me plenty of text and called numerous times last night just to keep me up to date on her health. One thing she keeps texting is "I hate what has happened to us". Well, if you hate it, why are you doing something to make it worse instead of trying to fix it?

The one thing that is really bothering me is how she acted before she left. Last week at this time communication was great. We were getting along great, having some good talks about how to fix our marriage, and were even intimate several times, which has not happened in quite a while. She was acting like a newly wed. Then she left. Really cannot wrap my head around it.

[Notwendy]

This is heartbreaking to see this effect the kids at this age, but in time, I think they will catch on to this.

I am an advocate for therapy for the kids/play therapy- and whatever it takes to help a child with autism.

But we had so many " do this or mom leaves" threats, that we just ended up resenting her.

She still does this- comes up with ideas about what she is going to do, where she is going to move. I used to react to them as an adult, but I found that if I opposed her, it was an invitation to the triangle- I became the persecutor, and then she would announce to family that her terrible daughter won't let her do X, or Y, and the rescuers in the family would jump on the bandwagon.

When my father was living, it was " I'm moving out and getting my own apartment in X". Now it's "I need to move out of this house, so I am throwing all this stuff ( that belonged to us kids or my dad) out".  "I can't move because of all this stuff in the house"

The few times I have come to get anything by the time I get there, she has changed her mind. Or when I offer to take any of the stuff she is complaining about, she won't let me take it. If I pleaded with her to not throw something out that I wanted, then she'd say " How dare you keep me from moving".

So now, when I get the call " I'm moving here, or I'm getting rid of all your stuff" I just say "Ok mom" and let it go.

Your wife is going to be a part of your lives, and this is part of it. I hope you can get her medical help. I wish something like that was available to my mother. Still, the threats, the fantasy that the grass is greener somewhere else seems to be part of it including dashed dreams like that pool your wife mentioned that may or may not materialize. But we figured it out, and I think in time, kids do figure out who means what they say and who doesn't.

[babyducks]

The one thing that is really bothering me is how she acted before she left. Last week at this time communication was great. We were getting along great, having some good talks about how to fix our marriage, and were even intimate several times, which has not happened in quite a while. She was acting like a newly wed. Then she left. Really cannot wrap my head around it.

It's been explained to me as, once the decision has been made, and the thing that has troubling them has been decided and the pressure has been lifted they can go ahead and enjoy themselves.    if that makes any sense.

It's like struggling and struggling with something and the feeling of relief when the (self induced) end is in sight that a feeling of happiness is generated.

[formflier]

 

Hmm... well... I could have sworn that we had some articles on "push Pull" behavior.  "Go away/come closer"  "I hate you/don't leave me".

There are various names.  Anyway... .I couldn't find anything in our lessons about it.  If anyone else can help... please point us to a good resource.

Anyway... .she "pulls" you towards her with lovey dovey stuff... then "pushes" you away when she runs away.  Somewhere in her mind you are supposed to "chase" after her to win her back.

A dysfunctional way of figuring out if you still care. 

So... .you don't want to push her further away (that would be the extreme boundary you were asking about... .but you also don't want to chase after her begging her to come back... .swearing the is the best thing ever... .boo hooh... .

Try to take a reasonable... .centered... .calm approach to let her know she is missed... and has some responsibilities to take care of to "get back in " the house.

This should calm the swings from one side to another... .certainly shouldn't make them worse.

However... .there is always a but... .my guess is some other things are at play here too.  With the hometown going from black to white, there are probably childhood memories and some other things going on. 

How does she "normally" deal with your special needs son?  If there is such a thing as normal...

Many times the real answer is not "one" BPD behavior... .several things get mashed together in "dysfunction soup".  Just like it's impossible to separate two different soup cans that are mixed together... .you still need to know what was in those cans before they got mixed.


I did see one thing for you to look at in lessons.  I would "go for" the hospitalization thing... .but if she only becomes agreeable to some sort of structured separation with regular counseling.  It could work out ok.

The key in any situation is that there is a counselor/program that she is "submitting to" or "participating in".  In other words... really trying.


https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

Hang in there... !

FF

[Cole]

Notwendy,

Much of what you said resonates here. MIL does the same thing with the come get your stuff/no you can't have it. W does live in the grass-is-greener fantasy land. And the kids have figured out mom does not usually mean what she says.

babyducks,

The more I think about it, maybe it was more of a play to get me to agree to her idea of a temporary (or rather, therapeutic) separation vs my "this is the end" approach.

FF,

Push/pull is all she knows, she is a master at it. Yes, she wants me to chase her and reassure her I love her. But like both you and Skip have said, don't fall for it, and I am not.

As for the home town, I think she is seeking a period in time rather than a place. Gonna be disappointed.

She is agreeable to a structured separation; that is what she has wanted and even begged me to do for weeks. She is still wanting that, but I need to insert some terms of my own which are close to what you suggested.

Thank you. The link to therapeutic separation is a big eye opener. Looks much like what she wants me to do. She keeps saying this is to fix her and get mentally well enough to fix us.

[formflier]

 

In my opinion... .the key is to get her in a good situation so that there is someone else as the "authority figure"

In my case it was the family therapist.

Be open to family t, versus MC... or perhaps both.

There are lots of dynamics at play here... .

One thing to avoid... ."making her" do therapy where you are the enforcer.  Usually better for you to continue to go to therapy and let her be the one to drop out... .vice her talking you into dropping out.

My wife threatened to stop going many times... .flat out said she wouldn't be there.  I expressed understanding and sympathy... .and expressed to her that I would be attending our appointment to work on my part of the relationship.

No begging... .no pleading... I just continued on.  She showed up... .every time.

One issue... .   planning to have kids around while she is packing and leaving.  Even if it is just for her to pack up. 

Just feels weird... .  I don't want to use the kids as a lever... .but I don't want to needlessly expose them to known hostile situations.

I also wouldn't make their absence about her.  Find a playdate or something for them to do. 

The attitude is that their life and your life will continue and not "react" to her whims.  Kids going on playdates is normal.  Get your wife loaded up... and then meet kids for quick visit... .

It's good that your kids realize that mom says weird stuff.

A couple weeks ago S15 "told" mommy that she wants "ranting"... .she actually took it pretty well... dialed it down a bit.

FF

FF

[Cole]

One thing to avoid... ."making her" do therapy where you are the enforcer.  Usually better for you to continue to go to therapy and let her be the one to drop out... .vice her talking you into dropping out.

One issue... .   planning to have kids around while she is packing and leaving.  Even if it is just for her to pack up. 

She is continuing therapy with her T up here by phone, found another one in home town, and she is the one who wants to go to MC. I was the one who said, "no, if you move we are done." I have moderated that position thanks to some good advice here. 

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

[formflier]

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

Who's grandma... .mom... .your's or hers.  I'm guessing yours.

FF

[Cole]

Kids will say hi, go to grandmas while she loads up, then come back to say goodbye.

Who's grandma... .mom... .your's or hers.  I'm guessing yours.

FF

Mine. If it was hers, one of them would be dead and the other in prison. MIL is serious BPD, as well.

[formflier]

  I'm impressed with how you are holding up and thinking this through.  So don't take any of my comments on your plans as me saying they are wrong. I think it would be better for kids not to say hey in the beginning.  That means there would be two "leavings" to work through. IMO, moving stuff out like this is adult business and should be left to adults.  Over to you if you want to help her.  I would advise you to be around to make sure nothing disappears that you have an issue with. However, I also think that her coming back and wanting to see kids is healthy so I am advocating that she spend time with them.  Last thought for now: , let her own this decision, .   If she tries to say "mommy and daddy have decided xyz, "  be ready for a calm counter to this.  :)o not cover for her.  :)o not persecute her in front of the kids either. I think you are fine to express your desires, ":)addy would like our family to stay together"  I think this is ok.  Stay away from "Mommy has decided to leave" Basically, don't let her steal your voice to kids, and as painful as it is, don't try to steal hers either. Hang tough dude!  Lots to think through,                                        

FF

[Skip]

This topic has been continued: bpdfamily.com/message_board/topic=286204