So she says..."I know you didn't just get up this morning and decide..."

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Actually... that's exactly how I decided it...

For those that know my story... .we are in the middle of a move.  Monday I got health certificate for horse (to cross state lines), Tuesday morning I got up and was able to get horse loaded in trailer, checked on the rest of the things I needed to do, figured out I was good to be gone until the next day... .and drove away.  Delivered the horse to new location (about an 8 hour normal drive away... horses take longer) yesterday evening.

Got to spend night with my wife (she is already there)... .and I left to drive back early this morning. 

After my wife got up she called (about 630 am... I left at 5am) and conversation was pleasant but I could tell she was "after" something.

She kept asking me what the plan was to get the rest of the stuff moved up and my answer was "It depends on house closing dates, loans and lots of variables"

She kept insisting she knew all of that could change things... .but wanted to know my plan... ."Because I know you didn't just wake up and decide to bring the horse up yesterday... ."

I don't know if she was baiting me... wanting me to JADE... .the entire conversation was pleasant.

To me... it seemed she was "ratcheting up"... .

So... .I made a "tactical decision" to switch to reassurance that everything would be ok... rather than make up some BS plan.

My assumption was that she was looking for reassurance... but didn't know how to ask... and if I had a plan... it would all be ok.

I told her my confidence was high that we would actually close on the house... .even though the underwriters are nitpicking things.

I laid out option a... .and how that is ok.

Option b... and that is ok.

And then finished of with... ."there are several ways this all turns out ok... "

Well... darned if it didn't seem to calm her... .

She said she had to go get ready for her job... .and seemed much happier/calmer.

Who knows... .

Anyone else have another take on this? 

Reminds me a bit of Cat Familiars indirect communication style thread and some odd things that got said over there.

I mean... why not just ask... ."How did you decide to come up yesterday or today" 

And... .over a couple conversations... .I gave her my reasoning... she already had the info.? 

I'm ok... not triggered... more just curious if there is something else for me to look at.

FF

[formflier]

Actually... that's exactly how I decided it...

For those that know my story... .we are in the middle of a move.  Monday I got health certificate for horse (to cross state lines), Tuesday morning I got up and was able to get horse loaded in trailer, checked on the rest of the things I needed to do, figured out I was good to be gone until the next day... .and drove away.  Delivered the horse to new location (about an 8 hour normal drive away... horses take longer) yesterday evening.

Got to spend night with my wife (she is already there)... .and I left to drive back early this morning. 

After my wife got up she called (about 630 am... I left at 5am) and conversation was pleasant but I could tell she was "after" something.

She kept asking me what the plan was to get the rest of the stuff moved up and my answer was "It depends on house closing dates, loans and lots of variables"

She kept insisting she knew all of that could change things... .but wanted to know my plan... ."Because I know you didn't just wake up and decide to bring the horse up yesterday... ."

I don't know if she was baiting me... wanting me to JADE... .the entire conversation was pleasant.

To me... it seemed she was "ratcheting up"... .

So... .I made a "tactical decision" to switch to reassurance that everything would be ok... rather than make up some BS plan.

My assumption was that she was looking for reassurance... but didn't know how to ask... and if I had a plan... it would all be ok.

I told her my confidence was high that we would actually close on the house... .even though the underwriters are nitpicking things.

I laid out option a... .and how that is ok.

Option b... and that is ok.

And then finished of with... ."there are several ways this all turns out ok... "

Well... darned if it didn't seem to calm her... .

She said she had to go get ready for her job... .and seemed much happier/calmer.

Who knows... .

Anyone else have another take on this? 

Reminds me a bit of Cat Familiars indirect communication style thread and some odd things that got said over there.

I mean... why not just ask... ."How did you decide to come up yesterday or today" 

And... .over a couple conversations... .I gave her my reasoning... she already had the info.? 

I'm ok... not triggered... more just curious if there is something else for me to look at.

FF

[flourdust]

It sounds like anxiety over uncertainty (in this case, about the move), and you avoided all the pitfalls and managed to soothe her. Good job!

I get similar queries from my wife around stressful uncertainties (moves, family events, even simple things like what we're going to have for dinner during the week). It's less about having concrete information than about feeling that things are under control. Sometimes it's hard to convincingly give that assurance. I might borrow your approach and see if it works for me.

[Grey Kitty]

  Remember that validation stuff you've wanted to work on for a while now?

Validating what somebody says is pretty easy, active listening/echoing back.

Validating how somebody is feeling, especially when they are not able to express it clearly is harder.

Well this is getting better at validation--Here's how I see what happened.



Part 1: Stimulus

Your wife said "I know you didn't just wake up this morning and decide... ."

You've got a trigger here kinda like mine--any time somebody (esp. when somebody is your wife!) is telling you what you are thinking/feeling, it is somewhere between a gentle warning charm and every alarm in a two block area going off at once 

Absolutely no doubt the needle was heading toward the red zone, 'tho where it would go is uncertain.

Part 2: Awareness

You knew something else (unspoken) was bugging your wife.

Part 3: Response.

You guessed that uncertainty and worry over the upcoming house closing was the problem, and spoke to that concern, and explained that you weren't worried because either outcome was managable.

And it seemed to work.



The biggest risk here was that you guessed what the problem was, and spoke to that. If you had guessed wrong, I don't think you would have had those results.

Your challenge and opportunity here is to move from validating about facts to validating about feelings.

When she kept coming back to asking you about your plan, etc. after you answered, "ratcheting up" as you put it, think about what feelings she had, and what feelings she was expressing at the time.

Worried? Anxious? Fearful?

What if on the second time you said something like "You sound worried. Is there something you are afraid of?"

Could she have opened up with her fears and concerns at that time? Or maybe admitted she was fretting, and didn't really know what it was about?


Next opportunity for you: Reassurance appeared to help, but it isn't very validating. It goes like this:

"Her: I'm afraid. You: Don't be afraid of it." You are telling her that her fear isn't valid, because what she is afraid of isn't real, and thus isn't scaring.

True validation goes more like this:

"Her: I'm afraid. You: What you fear is scary, its OK."

Not having a place to live IS a scary thing. Feeling the fear is normal and reasonable. And if it is allowed, (and validated!) it can dissipate on its own.

If it is hidden and festers, to run away from it your wife's normal coping mechanism is to get angry at you, blame you, and when she's fighting with you, she doesn't have to feel the fear that set it all in motion.

In your specific case, I don't know how well inviting your wife to speak directly to her feelings will work--you may be better off dealing with them indirectly, perhaps more like you did this time. Even if you do that, make sure you are operating on both levels at the same time--speaking with words about actual issues, but in ways that validate and address underlying feelings.

I'm sure you intuitively and personally understand that TELLING her what she is feeling is horribly invalidating. Don't go down that path 

[Cat Familiar]

This is very similar in structure to lots of conversations I have with my husband that drive me nuts. I'll be outdoors working on some project (like installing drip irrigation line in a new planting area) and he will ask me, "How long are you going to be doing that?" (Probably the underlying question is "when are you going to stop that and start fixing dinner?" I'll think, it's going to take me as long as it takes me until I finish it. How do I know? It's even worse when it's something for which I can't give a reliable estimate. Then if I do give an estimate, and it's considerably off, he will say, "I thought you were going to be done in half an hour."

I'm a spur of the moment kind of worker. He's always asking me what I'm going to do next. I might say I'm going to vacuum and then I realize that I need to do a load of laundry. He'll then see me in the laundry room and say, "I thought you were going to vacuum." It drives me crazy--like someone is monitoring my every move.

A side note--I got along really well when I lived in the South. There was a phrase I frequently heard there that I've never heard here on the West Coast. It's "I'll be there directly." When I first heard it, I thought the speaker meant that he'd be there immediately. Instead, I learned that directly meant maybe in a hour, half a day, next Tuesday, whatever. I love this. This is how I want to live. Like the speaker, I will show up and do what I say, but I want to do it on my own time table. It galls me when my husband is overseeing my itinerary.

Good work, FF, on figuring out how to answer your wife's question and reassure her that everything is OK.

[formflier]

 

While I didn't think it through as well as GK laid it out... .he got is pretty right.

Biggest piece is that there was another issue  at hand.

It's been a while since I directly asked how she was feeling... .months ago I tried to incorporate this into "my thing" ... .how I deal with BPD... .and it didn't go so well.

Usually it would get a smart ass response... or I should have known... .or her antennas went up that I was trying to "work on her".  

In other words... .missing the validation target... .for me... .goes badly.  She seems to try to avoid directly identifying that target.

So... .     

In years past I would have devolved into... ."yes I did and no I didn't"... .pretty solid that is over with me... .she can think what she thinks... .and "know" what she "knows".

Triggers... .GK is right on point again... .I hate people saying they know what is going on with me... .even when they are right.

My wife is rarely right... .


Emotions:  

My wife seemed to be presenting "paranoia" at me making plans and keeping her in the dark... .the whole... ."I know you have a plan thing""

But... .I was pretty sure anxiousness was the issue... .or fear of the deal falling apart.

Deals can always fall apart... .but we are not "close to the edge" on this one.  

Plus... there was also the angle that we hadn't slept together in a couple weeks... .had one night together... .I left at 5am and she slept a while longer... .wakes up and I am gone.   She knew this would happen... .but still... I could see that being part of it.

Keep suggestions coming.

My goal:  Find a way to directly ask about her emotions... .without it seeming like a "big deal".  I suspect that is my next step on the way to being a better validater.



FF

[formflier]

 

Cat Familiar,

I'm right with you.  I like to work on something... get it done... put away... and then move on to next thing.

Anytime I see something that I can "finish" that is appealing to me.  An hour here and there on a project is needed... but doesn't appeal to me. 

I'm also pretty good at dealing with fluid situations... .where there is a goal.  So... .goal:  All our crap gets to new location.  Further complicated by some of that stuff being animals that can be stressed. 

Of note... .the couple times I've moved our horse she has been a trooper.  I've heard stories that make me cringe... .either I did it right... .or we've got a calm horse... .or both.

FF

[formflier]

 

You are spot on with "directly"... .I use that phrase some... .

I also lived in the upper midwest for a while.  Hunting culture up there was HUGE... .massive.

Had a worker that was going to come out to the farm and do some work that I couldn't get to.  He promised to be there that weekend (very specific)... .it was my first season there... .and it was hunting season.

Anyway... .he didn't show.  I was pissed... .he called me next week and calmly explained that his brother was able to come to town and "we went hunting... ."   I was slack jawed... .but... .whatever.

At my work I explained the story to several locals... .and all agreed with him... ."Oh yeah... .well... .of course he went hunting... ."

I mean... zero people batted an eye that I was left hanging.

Come to find out... .that's just the way things are done.  You don't plan things like that in hunting season... .


FF

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so glad the move with your horse went so well. That's a long time to be on the road.  Your daughters will be so happy.   Are you going to board the horse or are you buying the rural property?

[formflier]

I'm so glad the move with your horse went so well. That's a long time to be on the road.   Your daughters will be so happy.   Are you going to board the horse or are you buying the rural property?

Yes... I'm glad too.

Board the horse... .another thread coming soon to discuss this aspect.  I think we have a solution.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Emotions:  

My wife seemed to be presenting "paranoia" at me making plans and keeping her in the dark... .the whole... ."I know you have a plan thing""

But... .I was pretty sure anxiousness was the issue... .or fear of the deal falling apart.

Deals can always fall apart... .but we are not "close to the edge" on this one.  

Plus... there was also the angle that we hadn't slept together in a couple weeks... .had one night together... .I left at 5am and she slept a while longer... .wakes up and I am gone.   She knew this would happen... .but still... I could see that being part of it.

Keep suggestions coming.

My goal:  Find a way to directly ask about her emotions... .without it seeming like a "big deal".  I suspect that is my next step on the way to being a better validater.

Paranoia isn't an emotion, and even if it was, you aren't going to acknowledge it by that name and have anything good come of it !

Anxiety is an emotion. You could validate that one.

"asking about her emotions" as validation seems to me like a powerful but advanced form, and prior experience shows that you and she aren't quite ready for it. Probing or interrogating doesn't feel good, especially when it is aimed at a sensitive area, and "asking" can do that easily. Especially for somebody who has poor boundaries, and doesn't feel comfortable or safe turning down the request.

I'd start with acknowledging emotions. Showing her that you notice, and accept her emotions is a good way to build trust.

"You sound worried" or "You sound anxious" would do that. It isn't a question, there is no demand that she tell you what she is anxious about. It is an opportunity, an open door that she can walk through, or close as she sees fit.

do it in a way that gives her the choice.

If she does go through the door, validate what she next says. You are building trust this way.

Most important, you can do it with all sorts of emotions/feelings, not just negative and/or highly charged ones.

"You look exhausted." (possibly followed by "Can I do 'X' for you?"

"You look happy."

"You look relieved."

"I love how your face lights up when you see (person, pet, other thing that brought her joy)"

A regular diet of this kind of validation will really help your marriage and build trust.

[Icthelight]

Emotions:  

"You look exhausted." (possibly followed by "Can I do 'X' for you?"

Good overall advice Grey Kitty. The only validation I once used and will never use again with my wife is this one. I was trying to validate or show empathy one day and said, "honey, you look tired, how can I help you." She became upset and responded, "Wow, great, thanks for making me feel worse. You may as well have said that I look like crap." A co-worker of mine also made the same mistake and she was not very nice to him. My co-worker reminds me about this and at least we can laugh about it now.

[Grey Kitty]

Validation does take practice. It also takes sincerity. If your non-verbal communications aren't matching your words, that really destroys the effect.

It is hard to sound sincere when you are trying something new like that, and aren't quite comfortable in your own skin while doing it. A couple things you can do for better practice... .

1. Practice with easier people. Coworkers. Friends (especially ones that aren't mentally ill). Those people aren't ticking bombs, about to blow up at you if you give them anything a teeny bit invalidating... .like the pwBPD closest to you.

Without the high stakes / risk, you will see that people respond positively to validation. In fact, it will make many areas of your life go more smoothly if you do validate the people around you, so make it a habit, not just practice.

2. Practice here on the forums. You will find lots of frustrated people (especially new members who are completely overwhelmed.) When you respond to somebody, think about what you can say that is validating. Trust me, they will appreciate it. In this format, you have plenty of time to think about it.

The third thing about practice is that people are different, and even when you are better at it, you will find that some people are more resistant to validation in general, or in specific subject areas, or certain styles. The pwBPD in your life is likely to be one of the worst in this way.

[waverider]

When people are suffering a kind of anxiety disorder then the real issue is it doesn't seem to be targeted, to them anyway, it is just a general anxiety. As it doesn't feel targeted then their inquires and attempts to be reassured can be a bit vague and not straight to the point, as they dont know what they are worried about. So it comes across as fishing.

When you try to solve with logic, you are attempting to attach specifics to a non specific issue. Hence it sis best sticking to things will be OK, without detailing it

[Aussie0zborn]

You handled that very well. Good job!

[empath]

One of the things that I have recently been doing occasionally is to ask outright about a certain emotion/feeling. For example, h and I had a discussion about a recurring expense that I need that also could be a trigger for h. (it's an abuse counseling support group) So, I brought up the subject, and h agreed. But he seemed to be trying to regulate his negative emotions. I asked if he was feeling shame which he confirmed. Then we talked a bit about it. Later, he said that he appreciated that I brought it up. He has mentioned his appreciation of that kind of thing before.

When I'm trying to draw out the emotional aspects, I've found that asking questions and using words that are more tentative tend to open up the dialogue more than definitive statements. "You seem... ." rather than "you are... ."

For h, one of his consistent triggers is my getting up before he awakens (abandonment) -- he will usually be in a bad mood if that happens. I've learned to ignore it and go on, but sometimes the early morning situation can color the other events and those need to be dealt with.

A thought occurs to me... .  Did you communicate with your wife that you were on your way before you showed up? She had reassured you that the changes with the sale of the house weren't too concerning for her, perhaps she was worried about your changing plans about your marriage.