The negative comments are wearing me out

[maxsterling]

I think I am finally admitting to myself that I feel depressed lately.  Some of it is seasonal and it happens every year around this time, but this year seems worse.  W's emotional neediness was wearing me out.  I struggled to do my own thing in the face of her near constant complaints of feeling lonely.  Yesterday, however, I worked my 2nd job and did my best to put her loneliness in the back of my mind.  She wound up going to an AA meeting for the first time in about a month, then went grocery shopping on her own, did all the laundry, and did some straightening up around the house.  WOW!  Yesterday was the most active my wife has been with doing things on her own in over a year. 

Yet, despite this, I still felt down.  W was still making negative comments, living in either the past or the future or other people's lives but not the present life inside our house.  And this morning, I counted at least half a dozen negative comments before she went to work. 

This is par for the course for her.  I do try to validate and get her to move past these things.  But, validation first requires I actually listen to the comment.  The listening to so many negative comments affects my mood.  I try to put a positive spin on things in my own mind, but it is tough. 

Not really needing advice here - just venting.  It just feel like watching the news and it being all negative and feeling unmotivated afterwards.

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[formflier]

  Max, I think we are struggling with similar things, although yours seems to be a bit more constant.  I'm feeling much better about myself and finalizing the move.  The future looks positive to me  Wife and her family watch the news or comment about a news story and NEGATIVISM comes out.  Light ranting, the fix is in, we are all screwed.  I want no part of this.  I'm generally about to be around it and ignore it, but I do notice a drain.  Then when my wife see's something on TV about romance and guys lying, that kicks her into high gear.  I'm not able to be around that.  I wonder if a TV show where the woman rants and raves and the man has to put up with it to find happiness would ever catch on?  Sigh,        

FF

[maxsterling]

I should add the tone and nature of the negative comments are nothing new.  They are actually quite mild compared to what i have heard in the past.  But when I am waking up, trying to feel happy and hoeful about the day and I hear things like this, it's just difficult to get in a good head space:

"How much you want to bet your parents will visit your sister for Christmas?"  (I feel like my wife is trying to convince me that my parents don't love me)

"You always make a mess when you make toast.  You are a messy toast eater.  But I love you."  Gads.

"I feel like we spent too much on the new TV."  It's over and done with.  She hoped for a new TV for a year.  

"People are such asss."  This in reference to nobody in particular, just a complaint about her job about 2 minutes after we woke up.

And then the 4-times per hour complaints of being too hot/too cold, something hurting, heartburn, feeling tired, hungry, can't sleep, feeling depressed, can't stop thinking about xyz, etc.

I feel like i have no energy to respond or even validate these negative comments.  Most of them just feel so empty.  Why announce to me that she feels hungry when she could instead go find something to eat?  

[maxsterling]

I wonder if a TV show where the woman rants and raves and the man has to put up with it to find happiness would ever catch on?  Sigh...

Interestingly, this situation came up the other day, and I noticed that my wife is quick to jump on a male character who is being a jerk, but makes excuses for female characters.  In one show we have been watching, a female 18-year old was dating a man about 10 years older than her.  She was a virgin, and he wanted to not have an exclusive relationship because he said it was too hard for him to be celibate.  W labeled the guy as a jerk.  I can see that.  Female character eventually has sex with the man in a later episode, and winds up pregnant.  Rather than tell the guy, female character decides to go to college out of state instead, and breaks up with him, and considers giving the baby up for adoption.  No comment from W about how that is being a jerk to the man, to not even let him know that she is pregnant. 

[Chilibean13]

Can you try to encourage positivity? Yesterday after church, my H was super negative. I was a little nervous that he would dysregulate because he usually does on Sundays and I could tell he was tense.

He complained about the usual things, fretted over the fear that our church is dying, and complained about the lead on his team. He just kept on and on. I validated and listened. Then, when I knew his tension had lessened, I said, "Ok, now that we've talked about the things that went wrong, can we talk about the good things too? I feel like we have been focusing on the negative and I'm started to feel bummed out. What did you get out of the sermon? Did you have any fun interactions with anyone?" His focus quickly changed, at least for about 10 min.

[maxsterling]

His focus quickly changed, at least for about 10 min.

I've tried this approach, and it does help - for a few minutes 

My exhaustion is that the same issue may come up just a few hours later, with the same negativity, and I am yet again listening to it and trying to change the focus.

Example:  We bought a new TV over the weekend.  I see many positives in this, and one big negative - the cost.  Positives include having two televisions so that we can watch separate things if we want, W being able to watch TV as she falls asleep, and W feeling like she has something concrete to show for sticking with her job.  Yet about half a dozen times wince we got the TV, W wants to talk about how it may have cost too much or that we were unwise to spend the money on it.  I've continually pointed out the positives, but soon she is back to the negative.  If I could turn a negative to positive through validation and be done with it, that would be great.  It's having the same conversation over and over that I feel exhausted by.

[formflier]

  Max, I think I have a solution for the TV.  It's something solvable and you can end it for you.  Not sure if you have tried this approach before.  I'm only suggesting this because she seems to be doing better, I'm thinking a solid shove in the right direction can solve "an issue".    The negativity will remain and go to other stuff.  Think of this as baby steps.  Three part plan.  1st:  Validate her concern and express appreciation for her concern about $$.  Make sure she is heard and that she hears you respect her opinions and thoughts.  2nd:  However (or another gentle transition) "I feel differently"  Express that you wish to celebrate her success and that it is appropriate to get things occasionally to celebrate.  3rd:  That you support her "solving" her concern.  Either by enjoying the TV or returning it.     End this by saying that you will not discuss the TV issue further.    Perhaps you can add in that you want to "be on her side", "on her team" or something like that.  So if she wants to keep it and enjoy it or return it, you are on her side.                  

FF  

[dacoming]

   I wonder if a TV show where the woman rants and raves and the man has to put up with it to find happiness would ever catch on?  Sigh,

FF

My wife would probably pick right up on it but not realize that she does it... .she'd just project it onto me some kind of way.

[Grey Kitty]

Yet, despite this, I still felt down.  W was still making negative comments, living in either the past or the future or other people's lives but not the present life inside our house.  And this morning, I counted at least half a dozen negative comments before she went to work.   

Hey max, you are allowed to have your feelings. Try to carve out space for yourself to do this if you can 

This is par for the course for her.  I do try to validate and get her to move past these things.  But, validation first requires I actually listen to the comment.  The listening to so many negative comments affects my mood.  I try to put a positive spin on things in my own mind, but it is tough.

It isn't your job to help her cope with her negative feelings, or cope with them for her.

Your job is to cope with your own feelings, and to protect yourself from all the negative expressions of hers that are getting you down.

Hang in there--you can continue to make your own life better!

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

I can relate, my h's negativity can still b really overwhelming at times. I remember believing that if I listened, supported, was there for him when he needed to offload then he would eventually feel better. But he didn't, I think I actually created a black hole for him to pour his negativity into, ME.

And yes it is really wearing, I'm not surprised it is getting you down. Constantly soaking up someone else's negative energy is really demoralising and I don't think it's good for your soul either.

What I learnt over time was that it was better if I didn't continually validate him, it became better for both of us if I would politely excuse myself and go do something, anything else. Over time I got better at this, in a way this sort of short circuited his continuous, negative outpourings. This was a good thing.

I do now say things like ' I don't want to have this conversation right now, maybe another time' remember max it is ok to state your wants too.

I came to recognise those areas that are important to stay and listen to, and those that aren't.

It is ok if the negativity is getting you down to remove yourself either physically or emotionally.

Is there a way you can tune out the negativity even if you are still physically present? Can you practise 'tuning out' the next time your w is negative?

Does anything work that stops the negativity?

[Notwendy]

Some of this is insecurity and black and white thinking. Something could be longed for (like the TV)but when she gets it, it isn't the idea of it that she had in mind.

My mom may cook something, but she can feel nervous about if it turned out OK. We can be trying to eat, and she may ask us so many times- it is OK? - yes it is OK

does it need more salt? No mom, it has enough salt.

did I use too much salt? No mom it is fine

Is it overcooked?  no mom, it is not overcooked.

Did I cook it enough? ... .

I used the dread getting her a present. She may say something like " Thanks for the flowers, but the florist sent ugly ones that are almost dead" It felt like she was finding something wrong with just about anything. Lately though, she has surprised me by calling and thanking me for the lovely flowers.

My mom could send us to the store, and we would bring the right item, but not the right brand.

It is hard to deal with this, but it isn't about you.

[maxsterling]

Is there a way you can tune out the negativity even if you are still physically present? Can you practise 'tuning out' the next time your w is negative?

Does anything work that stops the negativity?

I do my very best to depersonalize and tune it out.  But if I tune it out too much, she is mad that I am not paying attention  .   Some of it I can handle.  But the constant drone of it eventually gets to me.

[maxsterling]

I used the dread getting her a present. She may say something like " Thanks for the flowers, but the florist sent ugly ones that are almost dead" It felt like she was finding something wrong with just about anything. Lately though, she has surprised me by calling and thanking me for the lovely flowers.

Oh boy, can I relate.  I don't think I have been out to dinner with my wife yet without her having some kind of complaint.  Service too slow, some food not cooked right, too cold in the restaurant, waiter reminds her of someone she doesn't like, etc.  I am starting to dread eating out with her for that reason.  That's mostly true with gifts, too, although sometimes she has no complaints. 

[formflier]

  But if I tune it out too much, she is mad that I am not paying attention  .    

               Yes, this is where you want to go.  You can VALIDATE and AGREE with her that you are not paying attention.  You paid the attention that you could and then you stopped.  That you are happy to pay attention to another topic or to a SOLUTION for the topic at hand.   Don't back down on this.  Let her be mad, very easy to validate this part.                

FF

[ArleighBurke]

maxsterling: the constant negative comments can get you down. My wife does the same. Sometimes I just want to ask "if so much of what I do annoys you - why are you still married to me!".

I'd like to think that it's a learned interation with you - she complains and you respond, so she gets attention. By ignoring her complaint, and only responding to positive, she'll learn that negative comments go nowhere, and positive comments get attention/conversation.

With a non - this may work. Not sure with a BPD. I think complaining is just in their nature.

Somehow you just need to ignore and not take to heart. Perhaps even silent sympathy - I often say to myself "it must be so hard for someone to feel so much discomfort within themselves all the time that they need to constantly blame outside events".

[formflier]

  With a non - this may work. Not sure with a BPD. I think complaining is just in their nature.    

               Agreed.  I think we need to think of this as in better or worse and not think that we can fix it.  What consistency will do is get them used to the fact that we won't be paying attention to them when they are negative.  Once that becomes their new normal it will still most likely make them grumpy, but likely be something they learn to accept as they really have no choice.  The goal her is not so much that they stop complaining, the goal is that we listen to it much less, and therefor "suffer less effects" of the negativism.                

FF  

[maxsterling]

With a non - this may work. Not sure with a BPD. I think complaining is just in their nature.

Much of the struggle in my head comes a bit from the alanon-type teaching of not doing for others what they can do for themselves.  Let them face their own consequences, and they will learn.  I try that.  My wife seems to never learn.  This baffles me.  She knows complaining gets her nowhere.  She knows that she loses friends by being negative.  She's explicitly told me this.  Yet, she continues.  I believe she has little or no control over vocalizing her negative thoughts.  If this is true, things feel more hopeless. 

An example - I've lost about 30lbs since this spring, and have had a hard time regaining it.  Test after test come up negative, and about all the doctors can suggest is "stress".  I'm starting to believe it actually is stress from this relationship.  I'm already a thin guy, and am self-conscious about that.  Now I look almost sickly.  Other people are commenting, and I don't like that.  My wife is constantly on me about how my pants are "too big on me."  Duh.  I know that.  The problem is, I've lost so much weight that the only way I can get pants to fit right now is to have them altered or special ordered.  Or wear a tight belt.  I've told my wife how insecure I feel when she makes those comments.  I've explained to her that I feel the same way she would feel is someone commented about her clothes or her weight.  Sometimes, she catches herself before finishing the comment, but most of the time, she still makes the comment.  I feel quite hurt by this.  I'm tired of expressing to her how much this hurts, and instead say nothing and make peace with it the best I can by telling myself that she can't help herself. 

[Grey Kitty]

Is there a way you can tune out the negativity even if you are still physically present? Can you practise 'tuning out' the next time your w is negative?

Does anything work that stops the negativity?

I do my very best to depersonalize and tune it out.  But if I tune it out too much, she is mad that I am not paying attention  .   Some of it I can handle.  But the constant drone of it eventually gets to me.

I think trying to hear the negativity and not be taken down yourself is doomed to fail, and fail badly.

On some occasions you will feel strong, and caring and loving, and really feel like validating (the valid parts) your wife while she's being negative. On those (likely rare) occasions, do so.

More often, it is getting to you. If you try to tune her out, she is sensitive enough to be aware--it doesn't feel good to her, and doesn't help her. So don't try. Don't do the "yes, dear... .yes, dear... .yes, dear... ." thing--it isn't good for either of you.

Instead assert your own needs, in this case your need to be away from her negativity (at that time). You don't need to tell her why, just get yourself away from all those 10,000 drips of negativity... .they are eroding something important in you, max. You've already let them erode most of your reserves. You can't afford to lose much more.

[formflier]

  Instead assert your own needs  

               This is critical.   I'm not at all saying we shouldn't deal with "any" negativity.  One thing that I have been looking at, though not to the extent that Max has, is establishing a limit (in my own head) about how much complaining and griping I will listen to.  I really do think that some amount is appropriate.  I think my history in the r/s has warped that view and I need to listen for a couple minutes, make sure she knows I have heard and support her and then move along.  If she has more needs to express negativity, well, she can find another outlet.    One thing I have been repeating in my head is that I am a husband, not a therapist.  I think it was likely appropriate that I put a lot of energy into supporting my wife, "fixing" or "influencing" things to start going in a better direction, but once the boat is turning, less energy should be needed.  I certainly have better uses for my time and energy.                 

FF

[maxsterling]

Last night and this morning she was much les negative.  Part of it may have been to do with her chatting with an old AA friend, and somehow that may have encouraged her to chat with the "best friend" she has been estranged from since the summer. Other than complaining of being cold, she was pretty positive last night.  The exception being her job, where she declared that her and her co-worker/friend are so fed up that they have both decided to not meet some kind of planning requirement because they feel it is a waste of time and the administration won't care.  I have a feeling this will come back to bite both of them.  I see the situation like this - W does not like her job and thinks she is overworked and underpaid.  W gravitates towards people who share her view, and demonizes those who don't.  Now the co-worker/friend is upset, so W feels justified in slacking off.

Another thing W told me last night is that she is thinking about getting a second job.  ?  I don't understand the motivation for this.  She asked if the retail store I work at is hiring, and that maybe we could work together.  I see this as a very bad idea for many, many reasons.  I find this interesting considering how much she has said she hates that I work a second job.  did her attitude shift, or did something or someone else influence her?

As for me, I felt really down last night and this morning.  W seems to notice that I am depressed.  For a little self care, I have been working on cleaning up my workshop.  This morning, I put an old space heater in my workshop, turned on some music, cleaned and painted my workbench, and I felt better.  I may actually feel good about using the space now and get back to some hobbies.

[FartonmyHeart]

Max, this might sound super cheesy, but your post made me think critically about what actions I can take to address the negativity I feel like I still can't help but absorb even as I'm de-enmeshing and other therapyspeaking with my pwBPD. Since you specifically said you don't want advice I'm not gonna gunk up your works with what I came up with but I am gonna make a separate post here to share b/c it's been helping... .just wanted to say thanks for inspiring me to stop wallowing and keep working. It's good to know I'm not the only one that feels so dragged down by this issue. Heck, I don't think I even realized this was an issue for me till I read your post and my stomach started getting all acid-y and resentful and I realized why learning Validation was so hard too, ha! Anyway, thanks for complaining about the complaining thing.

[formflier]

  and that maybe we could work together.    

                  She is looking for more closeness from you.  Challenge:  Can you propose to do something with her, maybe not a one time event, not long term either.  Perhaps a walking challenge.  15 minute walk together after dinner for a week.  Make it clear that you are wanting to do something to "move closer" to her, yet be very "even" and "nonchalant" about it.                

FF

[Grey Kitty]

   What you are DOING (like your workbench) sounds fantastic. Keep on taking good care of yourself!

Another thing W told me last night is that she is thinking about getting a second job.  ?  I don't understand the motivation for this.  She asked if the retail store I work at is hiring, and that maybe we could work together.  I see this as a very bad idea for many, many reasons.  I find this interesting considering how much she has said she hates that I work a second job.  did her attitude shift, or did something or someone else influence her?

Pretty good chance she's trying to find a way to spend more time with you (so you can save her from her own difficult feelings).

If this were to actually happen, it sounds like a horrible outcome for you personally--you are barely clawing your way to enough separation that you can start feeling good about yourself, rebuild your strength and reserves, and have something left to give her in a healthy way.

Fortunately, given her prior history, she sounds unlikely to have the energy and focus to actually apply for a job where you work.

First step--validate her feelings as you can, but pretty much ignore that line of thought.

*IF* she actually pursues it, I'd suggest you tell her in no uncertain terms that you won't be working with her, and leave her to figure it out. (Boundary enforcement--I'm pretty sure retail jobs are easy to get. If she gets hired at your 2nd employer, quit and get a retail job at a 3rd employer!)

[maxsterling]

I don't think she is really serious about a second job.  I think it is likely just another one of those ideas she threw out there as a means of "fixing herself" that never come to pass.  Much like the gym membership, the pre-paid yoga classes she never attends, the art therapy, etc.   

As for working where I work - she'd be ill-suited to it, for sure.  And she would complain about it, and that would create tension with my employment.  Logically, she would be much better off doing something else for a second job.  I just don't know why she threw the idea out there - need more money?  Need something else to do?  Bored?  Want to be with me more? 

[formflier]

  I just don't know why she threw the idea out there - need more money?  Need something else to do?  Bored?  Want to be with me more?   

               And the thing is, you won't ever know, for sure.  However, since we know she is BPD and we know how that plays out in "push pull" and we also know that you have been doing much better leaving her to her own stuff lately, my money bet is that she is wanting to be with you more.  Instead of being able to ask for that directly and "admit" that is what she wants, she tosses out ideas that might work.  As part of "keeping your side of the street clean" and helping the r/s be healthy.  I would be direct with her about wanting to spend more time with her and propose something to do.  Standard rules apply.  If you propose the walk and then she flakes out, go enjoy the walk.                

FF

[maxsterling]

FF, I like your suggestion about planning other "together" activities. 

I know she wants to spend more time with me.  But I don't know if that is motivation here.   I wonder if it is shame.  She feels ashamed that I am working so hard to pay the bills and stay active, and she wants to be more productive.  The reason she suggested my place of employment is simply comfort - maybe she feels she will be less likely to fail if she works alongside me.  I think she feels shame that for 2 years, she hasn't been able to hold down a job and contribute to the household.  And I think she has a strong fear of failure considering the number of short-lived jobs she has had in her life.  Come to think of it, she's had her current job for 5 months.  I think that is about the longest she has had any job for her whole life.

[formflier]

 Max, While you are not responsible for her choices, you do have an interest in a good outcome.    It'w worth your time and energy to nudge things in the right direction.   If your nudges don't work out, remember, you are not responsible.  Hopefully the nudges are things that you will enjoy.  Don't poopoo (or otherwise downplay the idea of second job).  Instead suggest the together activities.  No huge commitments, something attainable, something fun, something together.  If you really want to step it up, have a fun prize at the end.    Do I remember that you like to cook?  Find a new recipe that is maybe a bit spendy and definitely tastes good.  Something you can splurge on.  Maybe say if you both take walks every day for a week you will celebrate by making that for dinner.  Present this as something you need.  She can help you.    Think this would fly?                

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Also, I think it's worthwhile to come up with a variety of strategies to redirect the negativity. I grew up listening to my mother complain about her work for hours every night at the dinner table. My dad eventually checked out. After dinner he'd stick his nose in a book or a newspaper and was incommunicado. It was exhausting to be around this kind of negativity on a constant basis.

My husband also is in the habit about complaining about the economy, politics, the environment. There's always the inevitable disaster waiting around the corner... .

I'm thinking I need to spend less time listening to this and more time redirecting him. I like the idea of taking a walk, cooking together, "nudging things in the right direction."

Fortunately my husband has been a bit more helpful lately. I think this is due to me letting go of the considerable anger I've felt and trying to see his reality a bit better. (Not that I want to participate in his BPD world, but I'm just not as reactive, nor do I take the bait the way I used to.)

[maxsterling]

I'm glad I had to work my second job last night, as I don't think I could have sat through another night of negativity.  Wife usually comes home after work, puts on PJs and parks herself in front of the TV, and complains about being inactive  Even though that is not explicitly negative, just observing that inactivity gets me down.

I felt pretty down all day yesterday, and most of my "tricks" to dig myself out of it failed.  I came home from the second job to find W on the sofa complaining of leg pain.  The leg pain is likely made worse due to inactivity.  I don't think I would have been able to sit at home and listen to those complaints yesterday. 

This morning, I did a few more things to try and feel better.  I did more work cleaning and organizing my workshop, and listened to sports radio.  I don't feel quite as down as I did yesterday.  I think I am going to take Friday off to just relax.  That should help.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm glad you're doing things that make you feel good. I've started a big cleaning and organizing project and I've yet to tackle my workshop, but I know I will feel really good to put some order to that.

It's so tempting to try to get them to do something when you can see how self destructive some of their behavior is. My husband will complain that his neck hurts, yet he will sit hunched over the computer for hours. Hello! How about getting some exercise?

I've made the mistake of identifying cause and effect and suggested solutions. As Grey Kitty says, "No good will come of this."