How do I say it?

[Bair]

My BPD wife admitted the other day that in the midst of a misunderstanding with a friend, she went to the the worst possible conclusion.  My wife was ready to write off the friendship because in my wife's mind --her friend clearly didn't value the friendship because the friend hadn't responded to a text message.  It turns out my wife had texted to a wrong number.

I often feel that she will jump to the worst possible conclusion in some of our dealings.  For example, if I were to drive home on "auto pilot" and forget to stop at the dry-cleaners, she reacts as if I were trying to keep her from having some outfit.

Anyway, how do I say "I feel like you do that to me too." in the least offensive manner?  When I bring up an issue for me, her usual response is to start listing things she doesn't like that I do.  I don't know if she does it as a diversion or she just attacks when she feels somehow threatened.

I know I can't control how she reacts.  But what is the least offensive way to be assertive in such a situation?

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[Icthelight]

Anyway, how do I say "I feel like you do that to me too." in the least offensive manner?  When I bring up an issue for me, her usual response is to start listing things she doesn't like that I do.  I don't know if she does it as a diversion or she just attacks when she feels somehow threatened.

I know I can't control how she reacts.  But what is the least offensive way to be assertive in such a situation?

More than anything, I think it is timing. For example, if she's telling you things she's upset about or doesn't like about you, bringing something up that you don't like about her or that she does to you is not the right time. She's already dysregulated and nothing you say will be received well. During this session, don't JADE, validate where appropriate and try to end the conversation as soon as possible. Members here have the saying of  "less is more." During this exchange, say as little as necessary and keep it short.

If something is bothering you about her or she's doing something that is bothering you, bring it to her attention, just prepare for the convo. Just know, that no matter how you say it, what you say and what words you use, she will probably still not like it. What really makes a big difference is your own mental state of mind. Don't bring things to her when you're upset, angry, irritated or in any other bothered state of mind. Approach her in a calm, polite, but firm manner. Be confident because what you have to say also matters.

Also, baby steps, don't bring a bunch of issues at one time. Bring up one thing at a time. If she begins bringing up things that you did or that she doesn't like about you, kindly let her know that you are interested in hearing her issues, but at a later time. You want to address this point and this point only at this time. Repeat this as many times as necessary. If she dysregulates or you begin to get emotional or angry, excuse yourself and try again later. Unfortunately, it may take several attempts.

Stay in control and be confident. My recent experience is that more than the words, what's most effective for me is my attitude and state of mind. Others here are much more experienced, and probably have better methods or more insight, I'm just sharing what is beginning to work for me. I completely understand what you're going through because this has been my marriage for 23 years.

Read the lessons and continue to work on yourself. Focus more on you and less on her. You'll be surprised how differently you begin to experience your interactions with your wife.

[babyducks]

  But what is the least offensive way to be assertive in such a situation?

I am more successfully with SET than with almost any other tool here.   I think it comes more naturally to me.

Support Empathy Truth.

Support =  You are probably right to notice this,  don't you think everyone occasionally defaults to the worse case scenario thinking?

Empathy = I know I have done it too,   I remember when x happened at work I felt like it was the worst thing in the world.

Truth =  Sometimes I feel like this happens between us and I think we should be on the look out for it.   Wouldn't it be better for us avoid worse case thinking between us?

Or something like that, in your own words of course.

'ducks

[Bair]

Thanks.  Most of the time I am too slow for SET.  If I am in the right frame of mind, it takes too long for me to say something.  By the time I think of something, she is two topics down the road.  I don't know how often I am in the right frame of mind.  Once she starts the dysreguation, I get rattled and that slows me down even more, not to mention my stress will show in my voice.

I just have to keep working it.

[waverider]

Don't directly connect two separate issues. Rather try to connect the issue to the trait, in this case it is black and white catastrophizing (assuming the worse on insufficient information).

You are providing explanation rather than accusation. Then similar instances, when they arise, can likewise be connected.

Perceived accusations will block all receptiveness to understanding, as defensiveness response comes into full swing

[ColdEthyl]

Don't directly connect two separate issues. Rather try to connect the issue to the trait, in this case it is black and white catastrophizing (assuming the worse on insufficient information).

You are providing explanation rather than accusation. Then similar instances, when they arise, can likewise be connected.

Perceived accusations will block all receptiveness to understanding, as defensiveness response comes into full swing

Question about this. In my husband's last dysregulation, his viewpoint was that I ruined his birthday dinner because I "Went and discussed where the dinner would be with his sister and didn't care what he wanted", when in reality, I asked his family if there were available on a certain date, and they just threw out a few suggestions, I relayed those suggestions, then asked him where he wanted to go. To which he replied "Let them decide"

When he was in his dysregulation, I didn't JADE, I just kept stating the truth. "I asked if they were available this day. They made suggestions. I asked you where you wanted to go. You said "Let them decide." Usually, when he dysregulates, his thoughts circle so he will repeat himself over and over. Some of the time, he said he never said that. Other times, he said he only said that because I "discussed where to go with his family without asking him."

Is my saying "this is what you said when I asked" feel like an accusation to him? In this case, what would look like a explanation rather than an accusation?

@Bair I'm not trying to hijack you thread, but I'm currently dealing with similar madness and I'm hoping we can help each other out on this one As far as not being in the right mind for SET... .it takes time. I'm a year in and I still let my emotions run me over sometimes. That stress in your voice... .they clamp unto that like a steel trap. It's so irritating... .trying to calm yourself down, but before you get the chance to the BPD has sniffed it out and they pounce on it.

[waverider]

Is my saying "this is what you said when I asked" feel like an accusation to him? In this case, what would look like a explanation rather than an accusation?

Anything that backs him into a black and white admit or deny corner will feel like an accusation to him.

Maybe try "this is how I understand what was said, is that what you meant to say or where you thinking something else and maybe it didn't come out right?".

The problem is they dont always mean what they say, or at least think it through properly and so apply a bit of revionism to their recollections. At the end of the day it is about getting to an acceptable revised solution rather than pinning down blame.

[ColdEthyl]

Is my saying "this is what you said when I asked" feel like an accusation to him? In this case, what would look like a explanation rather than an accusation?

Anything that backs him into a black and white admit or deny corner will feel like an accusation to him.

Maybe try "this is how I understand what was said, is that what you meant to say or where you thinking something else and maybe it didn't come out right?".

The problem is they dont always mean what they say, or at least think it through properly and so apply a bit of revionism to their recollections. At the end of the day it is about getting to an acceptable revised solution rather than pinning down blame.

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I'm going to need a lot more practice It makes sense what you are saying, but for the life of me I don't know if my brain can pull off that kind of BPD-Fu on the spot. Dealing with BPD is unlike anything else I have dealt with in my life.

[Bair]

@Bair I'm not trying to hijack you thread, but I'm currently dealing with similar madness and I'm hoping we can help each other out on this one As far as not being in the right mind for SET... .it takes time. I'm a year in and I still let my emotions run me over sometimes. That stress in your voice... .they clamp unto that like a steel trap. It's so irritating... .trying to calm yourself down, but before you get the chance to the BPD has sniffed it out and they pounce on it.

ColdEthyl--Thanks for adding to the discussion.  I need all the help I can get.  "Ran over" is often how I feel. She got spun up on me yesterday like I hadn't seen in years.  I left the house, had dinner and drove around.  I was gone for about 4 hours.  In that time she sent me over 150 text messages.  In that situation SET is completely useless, in my experience that is.  I tried to keep JADE in mind.  The first few were threats of divorce--"If you ... .I'll divorce you."  Then they turned to "I want a divorce." Then they were "you are scum."  I stopped reading after about 20 or so, and by then I was just skimming.  Point being, the messages tended to repeat and repeat a good bit.  Very irritating. 

When I came home she asked if I was finished with my temper tantrum.  If it were a line in a movie, I would have laughed.   In real life, I felt like crying. (After, that is, I over rode my urge to ask "Are you blanking kidding me?"

[waverider]

I'm going to need a lot more practice It makes sense what you are saying, but for the life of me I don't know if my brain can pull off that kind of BPD-Fu on the spot. Dealing with BPD is unlike anything else I have dealt with in my life.

Dont worry about always getting right on the spot, I dont manage it all the time. As long as you recognize the dynamic when it starts to reveal itself, you can then redirect, not react as bad and even more importantly not beat yourself up. Then you can let it go.

Eventually it becomes part of your personality and you will use it more often with everyone. Its just politics and reading the wind

[ColdEthyl]

I'm going to need a lot more practice It makes sense what you are saying, but for the life of me I don't know if my brain can pull off that kind of BPD-Fu on the spot. Dealing with BPD is unlike anything else I have dealt with in my life.

Dont worry about always getting right on the spot, I dont manage it all the time. As long as you recognize the dynamic when it starts to reveal itself, you can then redirect, not react as bad and even more importantly not beat yourself up. Then you can let it go.

Eventually it becomes part of your personality and you will use it more often with everyone. Its just politics and reading the wind

It's a good skill for me to learn. I tend to be a bit black/white myself and very rule oriented. Causes me trouble at work just because I get so uncomfortable and irritated at co-workers that don't perform their jobs to my standards. (see, even typing it... .I know I'm an ass)

I'm trying to practice mindfulness, step out of myself and take everything in before I open my mouth. I'm trying to trying to learn to don't HAVE to open my mouth... .and I shouldn't all of the time.

I am so thankful for this group <3 It's been very helpful for me, and helps me redirect my thoughts.

[ColdEthyl]

@Bair I'm not trying to hijack you thread, but I'm currently dealing with similar madness and I'm hoping we can help each other out on this one As far as not being in the right mind for SET... .it takes time. I'm a year in and I still let my emotions run me over sometimes. That stress in your voice... .they clamp unto that like a steel trap. It's so irritating... .trying to calm yourself down, but before you get the chance to the BPD has sniffed it out and they pounce on it.

ColdEthyl--Thanks for adding to the discussion.  I need all the help I can get.  "Ran over" is often how I feel. She got spun up on me yesterday like I hadn't seen in years.  I left the house, had dinner and drove around.  I was gone for about 4 hours.  In that time she sent me over 150 text messages.  In that situation SET is completely useless, in my experience that is.  I tried to keep JADE in mind.  The first few were threats of divorce--"If you ... .I'll divorce you."  Then they turned to "I want a divorce." Then they were "you are scum."  I stopped reading after about 20 or so, and by then I was just skimming.  Point being, the messages tended to repeat and repeat a good bit.  Very irritating. 

When I came home she asked if I was finished with my temper tantrum.  If it were a line in a movie, I would have laughed.   In real life, I felt like crying. (After, that is, I over rode my urge to ask "Are you blanking kidding me?"

I've had my husband tell me I need to nail myself to a cross and how much I was being a martyr during arguments if I try to point how dang much I do. This is the same guy that wants a participation ribbon every time he lifts a finger. I totally get the "If it were a line in a movie, I would have laughed.   In real life, I felt like crying. (After, that is, I over rode my urge to ask "Are you blanking kidding me?""

When I got home last night, I sat down with him to talk about how I felt the last dysregulation he had (those details are in my thread about his birthday). I told him I wasn't sure where we stood, and how I felt that nothing I do is good enough, etc etc. He kind of... .looked at me with a puzzlement to his face, and he said "Well hunny... .you know the time between Thanksgiving and New Years is really tough on me" And then he says " I thought we were fine. The past few days have been fine"

Well yeah dude... .the past few days HAVE been fine, but I seriously don't think he understand the impact his words can have. What might be a flash in the pan for him, sticks with me sometimes. I agree that I let this thing get bigger in my head than I needed to, but my feelings are important, and I need to express them.

He let me do that. He apologized, and we cuddled the rest of the evening. He was a doll this morning, and made me lunch.

It's reaaaaaaaaaally hard to wrap my head around how events like this might be a temper tantrum for him... .but a major blowout to me. On the other hand, almost everything else in life is a major malfunction to him, and manageable to me.

It's like everything is backwards.

[Cat Familiar]

I think we nons often suffer from burnout. We're trying so hard to manage our emotions, respond in loving, non-threatening ways, trying to understand the incomprehensible, it just gets f*ing overwhelming sometimes when they make a mountain out of a molehill.

Often I just have to walk around the woods by myself, or talk to the goats and sheep and tell them what an ahole my H is sometimes or just make sure I get plenty of time to do fun things I enjoy and be in the company of friends. In other words--it takes a lot of self care to be healthy enough to put up with the madness.

[waverider]

It's reaaaaaaaaaally hard to wrap my head around how events like this might be a temper tantrum for him... .but a major blowout to me. On the other hand, almost everything else in life is a major malfunction to him, and manageable to me.

That's the black and white switch. If they couldn't turn it off as quick as they can turn it off they would have resentment overload, and hate everyone all the time.  It is our inability to switch our emotions on and off quickly that causes resentment issues with most people rather than just fleeting frustration.

The difference is we allow the emotion to run its course, a black and white switch just turns it off without working it through, so it can be reactivated and switched back on again sometime in the future as though it was never switched off and will reactivate equally strong emotions.

To truly "get over" something the emotion needs to work through and fade, rather than just switched off unresolved.

[ColdEthyl]

Waverider, every time you post, you make a  come on for me. I honestly never considered that angle... .that his burying his head in the sand actually causes him to 'not work through it'.

@Cat I tell you people how much of an A hole my husband is, but that's about it. I can talk to my daughter in law, but I don't want that kind of stuff being dropped on her. I don't really have any friends, which I suppose is part of the problem. I'm quite anti-social.

I would love to go out and do photography alone, but husband isn't too keen on it... .always thinks if I want to be alone, I'm not actually alone.

[Cat Familiar]

I would love to go out and do photography alone, but husband isn't too keen on it... .always thinks if I want to be alone, I'm not actually alone.

I've been on the receiving end of that paranoia too when I ride horses he thinks I'm out to meet some cowboy. How that could happen totally escapes logic since I always ride with a friend and all of them are female. At least he's not accusing me of being a lesbian.

I've found that I just have to do what I need to do to take care of myself. And I won't be a good partner if I have to be around him 24/7. I'm an introvert and I need time to recharge and frankly, living with a pwBPD can be a huge energy drain.

At first when you assert your need for personal space, it's hard, but they get over it.

[ColdEthyl]

Blah. I haven't actually started that push yet because I'm at the bottom of that hill... .looking at this rock and thinking... .F this is gonna be a long haul. I know it's important, I know not only SHOULD I do it but I NEED to. I'm just not looking forward to what I will have to go through to get it.

[Jessica84]

It seems we all live a life of unresolved issues with BPD partners. They create a conflict, they get over it, we're stuck with the messy emotions caused by the conflict with no way to resolve it... .because to them, there never was a conflict to begin with, or we're accused of creating a brand new conflict or 'overreacting' to nothing. It's enough to make your head spin!

If I tried to explain this to anyone else they'd think I was bonkers... .so I hope it made sense to at least someone here?

[Cat Familiar]

Totally makes sense to me, Jessica.

Humor is main way I deal with it--I just laugh to myself or wrap it up in a funny anecdote that I can share with my closest friends.

The sad part is that I'd love to have a warm and loving and close emotional relationship with my H but the reality is that I've got to be on my guard constantly. That has lessened somewhat now that I understand the rules of engagement with a pwBPD, but there's so much to learn and I so frequently step over the line. On a positive note, I'm learning how to fix it better when I do or when to just let him stew in his own juices and walk away and do something I enjoy.

[ColdEthyl]

Totally makes sense to me, Jessica.

Humor is main way I deal with it--I just laugh to myself or wrap it up in a funny anecdote that I can share with my closest friends.

The sad part is that I'd love to have a warm and loving and close emotional relationship with my H but the reality is that I've got to be on my guard constantly. That has lessened somewhat now that I understand the rules of engagement with a pwBPD, but there's so much to learn and I so frequently step over the line. On a positive note, I'm learning how to fix it better when I do or when to just let him stew in his own juices and walk away and do something I enjoy.

@Jessica... .nope that is PERFECT sense.

@Cat I'm sloowly learning that

[Anna17]

BPD-Fu... .I like that.

I use my own variation of SET, which I call VALIDATE + NO YOU. It starts with a sta tement (or mini conversation) that validates the emotions of the pwBPD, followed by a restatement of the problem *wiithout* using the word "you." My BPDh husband  does not do well with that word and willl often get defensive. He sees it as either fingerpointing or someone (wrongly) telling him what he thinks or feels. Sometimes he'll get into defensive mode anyway. If that happens, it's time to back off and try it again on a calmer day. I think most pwBPD lean toward defensiveness anyway, and once they start down that path it's useless to try to work on a problem with them.

Regarding the "thinking the worst"conversation, I'd probably say something like this as my initial validating statement:

"Yeah, you know, I can understand thinking the worst in situations like that. I can remember times when people have just totally let me down. It really hurt and I wouldn't want it to happen again."

We might chat a bit about that, and then I might say something like:

"I do feel, though, that at some point a person deserves my trust. If things have gone along okay with that person for a while and they havent demonstrated malicious intent, I stop assuming the worst in situations like that. You know, I try to be a trustworthy person too, but sometimes I feel like some kind of bad things are assumed about me, and I'm not sure what to do about that."

My h would probably pick up on the fact that I'm gently referring to him and will hopefully be able to talk about the issue without getting into defensive mode. But maybe not. My h is a pretty extreme case, and I could see him start to gather himself into a stormcloud:

"So YOU'RE accusing ME of thinking the worst about YOU?

Whoops, time to back off and clear the air.

"Just saying that trust is a shaky thing sometimes."

Maybe we'll keep talking and somehow get to talking about the problem peacefully during the course of the conversation. Or I'll have to sav e it for a calmer occasion.

This is pretty long and rambling, but I wanted to give an example. I used to be not so good at this and would say things that I know my h took as accusation or blame.Really, many people, not just pwBPD, get defensive when someone directly tells them that they do this or that annoying thing. And when someone gets defensive, your conversation will not go in a productive direction.

[ColdEthyl]

Good points, Anna. Staying away from "You" statements is HUGE.

I had my husband claim last night that the last 5 times he's gone to the restroom to... .number 2... .he says someone else goes in there within 30 seconds every time so he's convinced that someone has some sort of poo fetish.

How can I validate that.

[Jessica84]

A poo fetish? 

Now I've heard it all. I'm sure there is a way to validate this. But it would require holding back laughter. At least, that would be my challenge.

[ColdEthyl]

A poo fetish? 

Now I've heard it all. I'm sure there is a way to validate this. But it would require holding back laughter. At least, that would be my challenge.

It's a first for me. It's very difficult not to look at him cockeyed when this kind of stuff comes out of his mouth. I love that man to death but wowza

[Jessica84]

Who is "someone"? You?

"I'm sorry for going in the last few times after you've... ."

Nope. I couldn't validate that. Some things are better left unsaid. 

[ColdEthyl]

Who is "someone"? You?

"I'm sorry for going in the last few times after you've... ."

Nope. I couldn't validate that. Some things are better left unsaid. 

He's assuming it's my brother, so I have no idea. I just kind of told my brother in a joke fashion to wait "35-45 minutes" like the movie Friday. He's aware of H's BPD, and since he suffers from schizophrenia, he really does understand some of the paranoia issues.

We all do our best to be understanding with each other and be open and honest. H of course not so much, he doesn't want anyone to think of him as 'defective', but I do talk about his issues with my brother so he can understand, and he can see he is not alone with his thoughts. (not ALL issues, mind you, just ones that affect him, or some of the magical thinking I will share since he suffers those as well)