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Author Topic: Pls someone tell me there BPD does this?  (Read 1036 times)
Lou12
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« on: January 03, 2016, 02:42:07 PM »

Arghhhh I could screammmmm!

Does anybody else's BPD completely invalidate them leaving them totally shamed and embarrassed?

Example such as; You have a disagreement, they give you silent treatment and then you send them a long note basically telling them 'dont be angry anymore, you know how much I care for you, pls don't put trust issues between us, I miss and love you' etc etc and you get a reply staying 'erm I'm not angry with you I was just busy'! Arghh they have just let you pour out your soul and come back with something that makes you feel like an over reacting, crazy fool! I actually went bright red with embarrassment when I read it.

It's like he purposely tries to prove to me I mean nothing to him by remaining so nonchalant and calm and wants to shame me.

Pls tell me your BPDs do this and I am not an over reacting crazy fool!



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Lou12
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2016, 02:45:58 PM »

Oh and to add he purposely let's me know he got the message to covertly show he is infact ignoring me! And I do wait like 24 hrs I am not continually blowing up his phone!
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 04:32:29 PM »

I know it can be frustrating and exhausting... .but try not to take it personal. It may be that he is actually busy. It may be he is coping with some emotion and needs space. It may be that he is punishing you or wants to humiliate you. My experience is even when it feels like he is playing some manipulative mind game, it's not on purpose. It's because he lacks 'normal' social/communication skills. Makes me feel a little better knowing I'm (probably) not getting played like a fiddle, so I hope it helps you!

I used to reach out to mine too during silent treatments. It always ended with me feeling worse by his responses so I don't set myself up for it anymore. I wait for him to reach out. On his next ST, try waiting him out. Hard to predict how he will react or when he will re-connect. But at least you won't have to suffer a potentially embarrassing or harsh response. And taking care of you is the most important thing.

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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 11:59:17 PM »

My bet would be he is punishing you in some regard. I think ST is all about punishment, control, and anger. What they don't realize, or maybe just don't care about, is that ST tends to make the recipient of it, anxious, sad and sometimes angry(especially if it happens often).

I agree with Jessica's post, and I'd try to just wait it out, and take care of YOU. If you can have a good attitude about it, that does help, but I've always struggled with that myself. It does not feel healthy, or normal to be a recipient of the ST. It seems pretty common with BPD though, but I do not feel that's an excuse for it. People with BPD can become better, if they truly want to.

I really, really hate the ST.
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Lou12
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 01:28:23 AM »

Thanks you two that was a big help in calming me down!

I know it was about punishment, control and getting me to conform. It's so frustrating when they deny reality and try to convince you that your own perception of reality is incorrect too. A real mind messer!

I still can't make my mind up if the manipulations and mind games are done on purpose or as a response to feeling triggered. This is something I can't let go of finding out yet after almost 2 years, I am no closer to finding out. I think I can be more understanding and sympathetic to these behaviours if I know they are not intentionally planned to assassinate me.

Well I probably didn't react the way I was supposed to... .I sent a message saying I need some time out again because I find the 'reality denying pattern' to frustrating. And I genuinely need him to recognise what is real. However on reflection I know I get him at his best when we are alone together so I probably just should have kept my mouth shut but hey what's done is done. And I feel like I can breathe again not having to deal with the bs for a few more days. Now the circle will continue, in his head it will be 'he who caves first is the weaker'.

X



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Lou12
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« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 01:30:44 AM »

Ps Ceru- I think I'm actually quite enjoying the silent treatment Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). It's the only time I feel a predictable peace x
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 02:39:40 AM »

Example such as; You have a disagreement, they give you silent treatment and then you send them a long note basically telling them 'dont be angry anymore, you know how much I care for you, pls don't put trust issues between us, I miss and love you' etc etc and you get a reply staying 'erm I'm not angry with you I was just busy'! Arghh they have just let you pour out your soul and come back with something that makes you feel like an over reacting, crazy fool! I actually went bright red with embarrassment when I read it.

Only in the very beginning of the relationship, but in my case my guy was hiding a big secret and once that came out everything changed. Is it possible your person is hiding something from you? Can you tell us a little bit more about your relationship?
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Lou12
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2016, 04:03:22 AM »

Thanks for reply Unicorn.

Now I'm worried that he is hiding something Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)?

The only thing I can grasp that he is definitely hiding from me is every emotion known to man! Happiness, sadness, anger you name it, he acts indifferent to absolutely everything. The only time I have seen him express emotion is through his relative who's a child. Most other things he appears nonchalant about. Although I see different, a times he exposes through his actions just how scared he is to feel anything. He is literally frightened to display happiness through fear that it's took away. It's very sad.

We do have a longish distance relationship so in all honesty he could be hiding a multitude of things from me. What kinds of things do you think he may be hiding?

I don't think he has anyone else but if he did she would be seriously under the thumb as in she let's him do whatever he wants and our relationship is to exposed over social media etc where his family are etc. I've also stayed at his place numerous times and have never picked up on anything that would make me suspicious and believe me I could work for the FBI Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Other than that I can't think of much else that he could hide that would be a massive issue for me?

X
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Scarlet Phoenix
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 04:27:45 AM »

Hi Lou12 

Yes, it's happened with me as well.

I think it's a somewhat shame based reaction. The pwBPD feels the need to be distant/push you away. Then later when they don't feel that way anymore, they need a reason for having been distant other than them being emotionally unstable. They often have a lot of core shame for their behaviours, and it's hard for them to live with it on a daily basis. "Being busy" is easier to accept. It doesn't hold them responsible for having made you feel bad. "It was something outside of their control!" Then they can move on happily with their life, and they expect you to not show any negative emotions "because they did nothing wrong".

Someone who is emotionally healthy, and busy, will still find a minute to send a text message or call to say hello, sorry I'm so busy.
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 05:48:33 AM »

Thanks for your reply Scarlett. You don't know how happy I am to hear someone else understands this. Your insights make so much sense to me.

How do you handle the shame that is brought on you from a situation like this? Or is this embarrassment I feel just personal to me maybe? X

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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 06:00:53 AM »

The only thing I can grasp that he is definitely hiding from me is every emotion known to man! Happiness, sadness, anger you name it, he acts indifferent to absolutely everything. The only time I have seen him express emotion is through his relative who's a child. Most other things he appears nonchalant about. Although I see different, a times he exposes through his actions just how scared he is to feel anything. He is literally frightened to display happiness through fear that it's took away. It's very sad.


I can relate to this. My H doesn't show emotions, except for one- when he is angry. This used to frustrate me, and I still think it is unfortunate, but I came to terms with this when I saw it as a boundary. Some of us have too weak ones, and we can have too strong ones. I found that every time I tried to pry into his thoughts or feelings ( desperate to know him better) it didn't go well. Now that I see it as his own personal boundary, I respect it. ( I don't necessarily agree with it or like it, but a boundary is a boundary).

I hate the ST. I am sure there are several reasons for it, but my mother with BPD used it as a punishment when I was a kid. I don't think I had met anyone else who did this with me, except- my H. He could keep it up for days. He could do it in the house, the car, on trips- be his usual self with the kids yet I could be invisible. It drove me up a wall and like you, I would pursue him, beg him to tell me what the matter was, ramp up my affection and caretaking behavior all in hopes of being "redeemed" by him at some point.

He was doing this a lot when I began 12 steps for co-dependency and my sponsor helped me with this. Whatever his reasons for doing this were ( and we don't know exactly), my behavior was reinforcing the ST.  it worked for him. It put him in control of me- I was unglued. He got to decide when to let me feel some relief from that.  I felt powerless. Also, when he did the ST, he got "rewarded" for it with my behavior. How to stop that?

I couldn't control his behaviors. He was going to do what he was going to do, and sometimes in the most uncomfortable situations like long car rides- where I could not just go off and do something else and wait it out. So, if I wanted any change in how I felt about this, I had to change my reaction to it. I also had to stop "rewarding" this behavior with the attention I gave to it. So, when I became upset over it, instead of pursuing my H, I called my sponsor and she helped me deal with my feelings. This didn't change all at once. It took time. I recall one long car ride where I had headphones on (  but was still upset ) and called my sponsor from every gas station bathroom breaks from the ladies' room. However, I managed to change my response to it.

The ST has diminished since I stopped "rewarding" it and also reacting to it. Also, by respecting my H's personal emotional space, I think he feels less defensive. I have made it clear to him that his feelings are his alone, and if he wants to share them with me, then it is his responsibility to do so. It isn't mine. So, now I don't wonder what is going on if he is quiet, and I have given him back the task of sharing his feelings to him.

Not everyone wishes to do the 12 steps, but someone who can help you sort your feelings when he does this can help you not be so upset when he does, such as your T, or someone who you trust to do this. Having a supportive person to talk to helped me a lot.
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Scarlet Phoenix
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 06:08:55 AM »

Thanks for your reply Scarlett. You don't know how happy I am to hear someone else understands this. Your insights make so much sense to me.

How do you handle the shame that is brought on you from a situation like this? Or is this embarrassment I feel just personal to me maybe? X

I remember such a relief finding this website and having other people understand what to me seemed completely upside-down  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I've had my share of begging, calling, texting, crying, pleading on my knees (literally and figuratively). It did not feel good. My way of dealing with this has to take myself out of the equation. When he goes silent, I talk to him/send messages like normal, or just let him be (we live together, but he sometimes takes off when giving me the ST). I try to go on with my life as I would normally do. It has gotten easier with each every time, and now I'm at a point where I don't really spend any energy on it, except the occasional day where it annoys me that we're losing what could have been a nice day.

There really is no quick fix to deal with ST, other than to learn how to not get dragged down. They always come back up anyway. Best to wait on the surface, in the sun!  
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 06:24:47 AM »

I really, really hate the ST.

I did in the beginning too. Then I started using it as me time. Watching movies, going to the beach, connecting with old friends. It became my favourite part

Quote from: Lou12
I still can't make my mind up if the manipulations and mind games are done on purpose or as a response to feeling triggered. This is something I can't let go of finding out yet after almost 2 years, I am no closer to finding out. I think I can be more understanding and sympathetic to these behaviours if I know they are not intentionally planned to assassinate me.

In many descriptions I've read by people with BPD, they do not want to hurt their loved ones. They know they do and they are often at a loss on how to change.

In the moment when they do it however, they justify punishing us, because they feel we have hurt them

Mostly they are hurting from childhood wounds relating to their primary attachment figure, neglect or abuse. Projection onto us gives momentary relief of the pain ( in the same way that a scapegoat was used in the old testament). It's a psychological defense mechanism to avoid the deep shame/badness they feel.
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« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 06:25:23 AM »

I understand the shame that is felt with this. Remember though, that the feeling of shame is yours. He doesn't get the key to this unless you give it to him.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am sadly familiar with that toxic shame feeling that can be triggered. I probably learned this sometime as a child. I have felt it many times when being "reprimanded" by my H. At the time, it feels as if I am a small child being reprimanded by a parent.

But I also know my H feels this. His father was a verbally cruel and shaming person who did not let one little thing go. When I consider that my H was once a child, ( who makes mistakes ) I had sympathy for him having to face a father who shamed him for everything. I know that my mother did this too. So this was one place where I saw that my H and I "matched" emotionally. Perhaps it is this shame feeling that sent him into the ST. But I also knew that his misinterpreting something I said or did could elicit that shame- which is why his anger seemed to me to come out of the blue. That, however, was not my problem to fix. I can't fix someone's thinking.

But the shame was. I had to do a lot of work on accepting that I am human and if I make a mistake, it is not a shaming mistake. You did nothing wrong by asking your bf what is wrong, but his critical response elicited shame in you.

Ouch- but great! Why? because you can recognize when you feel shame and then work on it. For my H, I think some of his behaviors are habits, learned from his father. For instance, if someone makes a small mistake in his family, they could be criticized, laughed at, and basically shamed. My H at times has pointed out mistakes and while that feel hurtful to me, in his family, it is almost like some kind of "gotcha" game. I learned to not react to this. This doesn't mean I don't feel my feelings- I do, but when I feel them, I try to understand that they are mine to deal with, not his. I also can see how easily his shame is triggered by me and have some empathy for him.
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 11:58:19 AM »

Lou12, hiding his emotions is a big deal. That means you can't engage in a normal emotionally intimate conversation. Is that something you are willing to give up?
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2016, 12:54:02 PM »

Wow Scarlet has some wisdom!  Thought Thought Thought

I used to hate the ST. Now I don't mind it as much. The silence only comes after some dilemma anyway so I use the time to catch my breath - gives me a chance to rebalance. It's still a hurtful form of punishment. But if I can enjoy it without telling him, we both win. He gets to think he hurt me, but in reality he gave me the space to heal.

When he comes back around, I'm in better spirits so I don't trigger his shame for doing it. See? Win-win.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

As for reality-denying... .this one still bothers me too, Lou. I hate it when he twists the facts and makes me feel wrong or crazy. I want so bad to jerk him back to reality. But as Formflier wisely said once, "don't buy their reality". It's really that simple. So instead of trying to sell him on mine, I try to at least keep myself from buying his. Of course, this can be a lot harder when their distortions start to sound convincing! That's when we have to jerk our own selves back to reality!
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2016, 02:02:21 PM »

You are not CRAZY ... you are most likely to be someone who cares, wants to do their best, be supportive, loving and enjoy positive experiences. Unfortunately, though, you're with someone who sees the world very differently from you and cannot tolerate owning a set of emotions that they've learned, or have been taught, are unacceptable for their survival. And, yes ... invalidation does seem to be something they share.

You have choices ... and it is your right to excercise the choices that are available to you. You can stay and learn to adopt a strategy that dampens down the chaos ... or you can gather your kids (if you have children), belongings and anything else that is sacred to you ... and get out of dodge. And stay out.

Staying is a long and painful road that will lead to more of the same ... and you will need to be very strong ... even agree to completely lose yourself in service to them. You'll know if you have the stamina for that intuitively. Leaving, of course, brings with it a whole barrel load of changes and disruption ... but this is your life and you didn't come to be miserable ... or to be someone's emotional punch bag or to reparent a ratbag with an emotional quotient of a 5 year old. That is their job ... not yours ... but somehow they've managed to convince you that it is your job ... and though you try as you might to do that job to the best of your ability ... you'll soon be taught that you're failing at it ... which will make you feel awful about yourself for not being 'good enough'.

Hope is the last bastion ... the last thing to go before you pluck up ... inflate your feathers and fly the coup ...

Your situation sounds like a living hell ... I hope you can find your answers and take action. Being here does help ... but in the final reckoning ... it is you that will have to make a decision that best suits you and your children ... because for people like this ... it's business as usual ... to garner emotional energy from any and all sources available.

If you look at the ways in which their behaviour makes you feel ... you will have some idea as to what kind of invalidating environment they were subjected to in their early formation years ... awful ... hey?

Best wishes.
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2016, 02:13:22 PM »

Thankfully I don't beg anymore, I got on to this a year ago and completely cut it out. He gets a phone call and a txt message to say 'come back when your ready'. The silent treatment was torture a first but now I just leave him. I am still unsure about reaching out after a silent treatment and up to now I've left him for 8 days before reaching out to him with a simple message that asks if he's ok. I usually follow it with a second 24hrs later, which he always replies to like nothing is wrong. I am still unsure if this is the correct way to manage this so some insight would be useful? Not sure if I should just leave him for as long as it takes for him to reach back out? Or if resolving it myself by contacting him after a week is the best I can hope for?

Moselle your explanation of why I can't decide if his manipulation are preemptive really makes sense to me. I really want to believe they are a defence mechanism to his inner pain as the other option makes him evil and somebody I definitely couldn't be with.

Notwendy you are so right about the shame being a trigger from my own childhood! This was something I thought might have been the case as feeling dismissed and invalidated really triggers me. Although I feel this is something I would feel comfortable talking to my BPD about I would fear that exposing my weak areas would be setting myself up for inner pain. One of the reasons we got into this whole fight was because he hung up the phone on me, once again it left me feeling invalidated and irrelevant. Hence I started piecing together that this was a big trigger for me.

Sorry Unicorn I was probably a bit harsh on him about having no emotion. I should make myself better understood. We are apart more than we are together. When we are together he is the sweetest thing. Very affectionate, loving, kind and funny. He never usually triggers when we are together, the few times it's happened then a brick wall comes up and he's a different man. Now when we are apart that is a different story! As soon as I'm leaving I can see right before my eyes that he is splitting me. He turns totally cold on me. The time apart is when we have all our issues and he becomes the iron man. I know that if we were together more this might change but the catch 22 is that he will feel engulfed so trying to maintain a middle ground is a constant battle. He can't say he loves me but when we are together he can't deny it. He's totally besotted with me as I am him.

Wise words Jessica, I am doing my upmost best to deny his reality. I have stopped talking to friends I know about him as they think I must be the crazy one because I read his behaviours so well and they think it's in my head Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). This forum has been a god send!

Thank you all x

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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2016, 02:34:46 PM »

Author John Bradshaw wrote a book about shame that I read years ago, and it resonated with me.

I agree, talking about shame to our SO's (if we want to then OK) isn't something we have to do. It's our shame. Actually, nobody can shame us, but they can trigger it.

My H does all the time, but unintentionally. It's from his FOO's gotcha style of picking on each other- sort of a game for them. Why they do it, I don't know, as surely my FIL shamed them. Maybe it was their way of coping- feel shame and go project it on someone else with this game?

But not me. The sensitive child I was took what people say to heart, and so is so easily hurt. The sibs in my H's family can sound like bullies to each other- but it is all in jest to them. Maybe it helped them get a thicker skin.

That was my project- to filter what people say to me. Not all of is has meaning. Some of it is said without thinking. Not me- I think about what I say but not everyone is like that.  So, when I feel this shame, I start thinking- is this true? Whose feeling is this- mine or someone else's ( Bradshaw discusses intergenerational shame. )

Then, I also do some self talk. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I haven't committed a big crime, done something beyond redemption. Often it is some small mistake I made and if I make a mistake it doesn't define me.

We offer understanding and forgiveness to our SO's. We should offer some of that to ourselves  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2016, 02:48:53 PM »

Lou12, hiding his emotions is a big deal. That means you can't engage in a normal emotionally intimate conversation. Is that something you are willing to give up?


I am going to address this in terms of boundaries and personalities. For some people, this isn't something they want to do, or it makes them uncomfortable, or they feel too vulnerable. If we are to have radical acceptance, then we need to accept people the way they are.

Are we willing to give up emotionally intimate conversations? I would say that is a personal choice done in context of the other qualities in a person and the value of this particular quality to the person. If this is a deal breaker for someone, then they may not want to give it up. If it isn't then it may be something they don't mind not having.

It may be that we don't have to give up an emotionally intimate conversation, but we may have to change how this is done. Maybe our way doesn't work.

However, if this is a boundary for someone, one way that doesn't work for me is to keep pushing at it and asking for more emotional intimate conversation. People don't like having their boundaries pushed and it can make them defend them more. I have found that respecting this boundary and letting others show their emotions in their way can help me understand them.

Also, I like this kind of conversation so I try to find a way to meet this need and still respect my marriage vows. This means I can speak to a therapist, 12 step group, sponsor, about my feelings. I respect the boundary of other's privacy with my female friends, but we can have a good heart to heart talk and /or vent about other things. There is no one person that can- or should be expected- to meet all of another person's emotional needs. Some are restricted to marriage and committed relationships but not all are.
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« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 03:37:43 PM »

Lou 12 wrote
Excerpt
Sorry Unicorn I was probably a bit harsh on him about having no emotion. I should make myself better understood. We are apart more than we are together. When we are together he is the sweetest thing. Very affectionate, loving, kind and funny. He never usually triggers when we are together, the few times it's happened then a brick wall comes up and he's a different man. Now when we are apart that is a different story! As soon as I'm leaving I can see right before my eyes that he is splitting me. He turns totally cold on me. The time apart is when we have all our issues and he becomes the iron man. I know that if we were together more this might change but the catch 22 is that he will feel engulfed so trying to maintain a middle ground is a constant battle. He can't say he loves me but when we are together he can't deny it. He's totally besotted with me as I am him.

So you are in a LDR?

You sound like you really love your pwBPD. May I ask how long you have been together?
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« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 04:06:20 PM »

Hi Unicorn yes I do love him dearly. I probably sound like I don't because I use the site to vent about negative things Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Yes we are a LDR but not so far that we can't see each other weekly. Met almost 2 years ago but were apart for 6 months and remained in intermittent contact x
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« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 04:08:43 PM »

Lou 12, you do sound like you love him dearly and I am glad.
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Lou12
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« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 04:12:42 PM »

Thank you Unicorn. It's not perfect some of the time but his good still out weighs his bad x
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Daniell85
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 04:17:33 PM »

I think ST is done with full awareness of the harm being inflicted.

It is done to inflict that harm, it's done on purpose, and the more they can see the hurt, the more they enjoy causing it.

A by product of time passing is that people calm down. I just think the BPD using ST to lash out, eventually calms down, centers themselves, and is open to being in contact again, as long as they do not feel they are being confronted over their actions or held accountable for them. If so, ST starts back up again to retaliate against you for speaking up.

The only cure I have found in my situation is to walk away and go about my business. When my boyfriend pops back around, say hello, how are you, and move forward.

That being said, the last time he pulled the blocking and silent treatment, he got it back. I didn't say a word to him for about 6 weeks. When I eventually said something, he was responsive. He was a pill. I went back to doing other things. A couple of week later, he decided to reach out, I responded.

IF he had tried to contact me while I wasn't talking to him, I would have responded. Simply, I had enough of the bull, and didn't bother to try and talk him out of his snit.
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Moselle
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« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2016, 08:16:41 PM »

The only cure I have found in my situation is to walk away and go about my business. When my boyfriend pops back around, say hello, how are you, and move forward.

I agree. The incentive for ST isn't there if we get on with life and business. Cultivate our relationship with ourselves during this time. It's amazing how much fun you can have during ST. And when they phone, answer the phone cheerfully and out of breath from all the fun you're having.

... .They don't like that at all.

ST also stresses them out if they are using it as punishment. Remember they are depriving themselves of their primary attachment figure and source of validation, for the length of their ST.

When we enjoy the break, it kind of defeats the whole purpose for their ST.
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unicorn2014
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« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 08:34:14 PM »

Moselle, I appreciate your post as I now may be dealing with a quasi ST from my partner which is being discussed on my recent post on the undecided board. I actually pulled up the lesson on ST to review it.

In my case, as my thread title indicates, I am having a hard time validating my partner right now because of the current situation. I would appreciate any feedback on my thread you might have to offer.
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Lou12
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2016, 01:54:46 AM »

So I had an interesting turn of events the last 12 hrs.

We decided to put whatever happened the last couple of weeks behind us. No explanation, no apology, no acknowledgement nothing. I let it all go and decided it was best to discuss when we were in each other company.

I sent a message last night. Very sweet saying 'good night, miss you'. The message was read and totally ignored!

My instinct tells me he is massively splitting me black after me trying to push a boundary 2 weeks ago which was the bases for this whole argument. My gut tells me he could very well flee. When he gets like this I'm insure if he is baiting me with the ST, so I react and he has reason to split me further or he's already gone into that zone where I'm dead to him.

I know him inside out and I know he's triggering pretty bad!
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2016, 02:43:54 AM »

Yes all the time.

To the point where I will find text messages or emails validating he was mad or

Angry and still refuse to confess to doing those actions. They don't take ownership over their own actions it's always someone else's or something else's fault
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Lou12
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2016, 04:19:15 AM »

Daniell85 I not sure I could have wrote it better myself!

I especially love the part of 'If so, ST starts back up again to retaliate against you for speaking up'. Which is exactly what I am dealing with yet again because I didn't react enough to the tantrum!

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