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Author Topic: How to deal with your friendships outside of the pwBPD?  (Read 542 times)
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« on: January 04, 2016, 07:40:28 PM »

So I have a bunch of people who mentor me with business stuff, they are family of friends I've had for over 15 years.

Just received a bunch of texts about my husband not going to their xmas gatherings with me and not liking the advice they've been giving me. I explained that in general he doesn't trust people and that anyone who has a relationship with me is a threat to our marriage and I understand that it doesn't make sense, but that is what it is.

Both my friend and his sister wrote me off. Said that it was negative and not to speak to my HBPD about them. That they cannot give me advice anymore. I said I understood and respect their feelings and honesty.

How do I feel, like a blow to the gut, sad and isolated a bit.

She went on to say that was my husband and I need to respect him and at the end of the day he is the one who is there, and that i should be able to confide in him and talk to him.

Its very hard to explain to people that its not that easy. There are good days and bad. There is husband when he is him and days where he is BPD. I'm just feeling a bit sad and confused because I feel like I am losing relationships, by being in my relationship. But as long as he is committed to therapy I am committed to my marriage, but without my outside supports, its hard.

And then my thoughts go to "am I the problem" because i'm in something everyone sees as bad, or negative and im not leaving. Or "am I crazy" and no one wants to be part of my life. and then it goes back to "am I BPD" and a terrible person because I vent to my friends about my difficulties in my marriage and I should just keep it to myself, love the one I've got and lay in the bed I've made for myself and only talk to a therapist and not be real with the people in my life, because they may write me off.

Any input or stories similar will help. Im just confused and a bit saddened by todays events.
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2016, 12:46:44 AM »

Well, I've been called on a bit on here lately for venting, and I get what they are saying, "don't just vent", and I am working on what I can, but nothing makes me feel as good as venting! It's venting that keeps me sane, and keeps me able to keep trying, and looking for new ways to make my situation, and MY life better! If I didn't vent, I'd feel truly isolated.

I think some people here think I only vent, but that's not true. I'm constantly working on ME, how I deal with BPDh, and lots of other things. I'm a work in progress, and I don't ever want to stop changing or growing. But if I didn't vent, I'd explode. Or have a break down. I come HERE to vent, because I can't vent to many people in real life, and even my therapist asks me why I stay with BPDh. She respects my choice to stay, but she thinks I deserve better I think(as do I), and she always asks me what I'm getting out of the relationship. If is was all bad, I'd leave, of course.

It also really helps me to read other people's stories, or even when they are just venting. It validates  a lot of what I'm feeling or dealing with. Ultimately though, even when I'm venting, I'm looking for a solution, or a better way to handle something. I tend to give myself a time limit to feel bad, vent, or cry. I don't want to get stuck there. Life is too short for feeling bad, and I feel looking for the good, and choosing how I feel is a choice.

If I were you, I wouldn't feel badly for venting. You may not be able to do it with friends or family now, but you have this place and therapy is also a good place to work things through.
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« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2016, 01:06:34 AM »

Thank you C-Blue,

I have actually read some of your posts and I'm with you on learning by reading others stories and how venting keeps me sane and not feel so isolated.

I also am reading books, in therapy, on this site, taking anti anxiety and depression Meds, and studying this disorder on a daily to try to manage its place in my marriage and my life. I'm a thinker and it helps me sometimes to bounce ideas off people to get to the end goal - solutions or problem solving. So yes for me too, venting helps so much.

I've kept to myself before and for me it's not helpful, I want my friends to know my reality and what my life is really like. People paint these fake pictures and put up their white picket fences, but if you are in my life I'm not going to hide, it makes me feel like a battered wife who can't tell anyone the truth.

I'm not battered, I'm making the decision to stay, but it's not easy and since I don't have emotional support at home because most times I'm walking on eggshells to not trigger my husbands Bpd and dysregulations... .I lean on my friends and loved ones.

But to be written off, it's very hard. I don't want to lose my friendships because of my husband and because of my decision to stay.
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« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2016, 06:23:23 AM »

One thing to consider when venting is how it affects the other person.

I agree with not keeping these things to yourself. I think we all need a safe place/person to confide in, to share our feelings with. In fact, I think it is important to not isolate ourselves with our situation and our feelings.

However, when we vent to a close friend or family member who is in some way connected to our SO's, we risk triangulating. This puts the other person in a predicament. That person may want to be friends with both of you, but now, his/her opinion of your SO is influenced by the venting. This can make him feel uncomfortable when with your SO. Or he may not want to come between you.

When we vent to family/friends about someone else, we can alter our relationship with them and their relationship with the person we vent about. My BPD mother vents to her family and friends about me, and this has severed their relationship with me. Regardless of whether what she says to them is true or not, it has over time influenced how they see me and now we are no longer comfortable when we are at family functions. It isn't that I have bad feelings towards them as much as how they don't see or act with me in the same way.

Your family/friends/mentors may care about you dearly, but they may feel uncomfortable being involved in your relationship. Consider that their boundaries feel violated.

There are many uses to venting, and sometimes a vent can be just that. A trained therapist can use venting as a platform for personal growth, but only if you are willing to use it for that too. But one benefit of only venting to a therapist, or a support group is that, it doesn't hurt your relationship with who you are venting to, and that is something to consider.
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« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 07:35:03 AM »

I have found a couple of people that I feel I can trust. I have explained to them what BPD is and that I believe my husband has it. With that, I can be a little more open about when he is having a meltdown. I also have to make sure they understand that I am committed to making this relationship work AND that I am working on keeping myself healthy. Knowing that I am working on me helps them support and encourage me during those tough times.
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 07:46:09 AM »

Also, one question is, after venting , how do you deal with the advice?

One doesn't have to take all advice, accept it as truth. In fact, one should not take advice without carefully considering it. However, if you believe the person you vent to has your best interest at heart, then another question is can you listen to them?

My sibs and I used to vent about our mother, and we still do, but now, sometimes we say something if we notice that the sibling has a part in it. Sometimes it is just a vent, and sometimes it is for our own comic relief from the stress of dealing with her. But sometimes, a sibling will vent to me about a situation, and that sibling's role in the drama is clear as day. Why is it clear? Because it is something I am prone to do too. At this point, I have a dilemma- take the sibling's side and ignore the sibling's contribution to the drama, or, with loving intent, say " look at your part in this".  The former may result in the person feeling good and validated, the latter may be the most helpful. And because my sibs know I love them, the latter can be said in a caring context.

Same with my H but I do not vent to family or friends. Yet, sometimes when I vent to my T, she gets all over me for my part in this. It isn't a pleasant feeling, but I know, and trust that she does it for my own good.

I think when we vent we need to consider the reason, and the results. Just venting does make us feel good for the moment, but does that contribute to our emotional growth in the long run? Which would you choose?
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« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 07:58:30 AM »

Hanging, I wonder if your friends/family did not write you off, although I understand how you feel that way. I think that if I read your post correctly, they don't want to be in the position of confidant/adviser over issues that concern your H.

Imagine this: if someone vented to you about their issues with an SO, you too might think " well why not leave? " at least you would think less of the SO. So, because you choose to stay with him, they know that a relationship with you includes him. They don't want to be in the middle of you two.

They are expressing their boundary, but they still care about you. You have not lost your friends over your decision to stay with your SO. What is hurting your relationship with them is venting to them. That is something you can choose not to do, and then, find someone who is not as emotionally connected to the two of you for that.
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« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 10:54:11 AM »

 notwendy,

Well I was thanking them for their advice which got someone to drastically lower their price they were offering us. I wasn't actually venting in that moment about my hBPD.

The response was, "I heard your husband didn't like any of the advice we gave you. I can't give you advice anymore. Don't talk to your husband about us even if it's good, even if you like us. Don't talk to him about us at all. We don't want to give you anymore suggestions because he doesn't like it. --- my brother told us he had a meltdown about it. At the end of the day that is who you chose to marry. I can't help you with your business anymore."

So yes I lost a very good business mentor who has seriously helped me grow my business.  

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« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 11:58:13 AM »

Wow that would feel hurtful. I would be upset if someone said this to me too. I don't know if I am reading too much into this but it sounds like a drastic thing to say for only one situation. Is it possible that their feelings have been building up for some time?

It is also upsetting to give advice with good intentions and have it rejected. I experienced this with my mother. I could give my father what I thought was good advice and then she'd have a meltdown over it. Since I was close to them, it hurt my feelings. I felt it was better to let them get advice from a professional so that whatever the reaction was, my feelings were not hurt.

I think your friends might feel hurt at your husbands reaction even if is because he has a disorder. It doesn't sound like they don't want to see you at all but that they don't want to experience that again.

Your thread asks how I deal with this. I don't mix business with personal. I think this helps spare hurt feelings. I also think your relationship with your friends is reparable. They would not say something like this if they didn't care about you. Once you are feeling up to it, perhaps reach out to them with a message that you value their friendship and will respect their wishes and hope to continue the friendship.

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« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 12:44:13 PM »

I wanted to also mention that it is rare that my H and I socialize together. I feel sad when I see other couples doing that together. Having couple friends has always been stressful so I just don't do it much. I have mentioned to my H that this bothers me but it doesn't bother him. I've lost much enthusiasm for trying to make this happen.

I do have close female friends and work friends. Talking about my marriage and anything personal like that is off limits. I do not do it at all. My H will accompany me to some work and social functions but they are not frequent. He has his buddies. They do mostly guy stuff that I am not intended in. He has also kept a strong boundary between his work world and me. I may go to a function or two but don't know his colleagues.

This was not exactly what I had in mind when I got married but it seems to be a working solution.
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 12:56:31 AM »

I wanted to also mention that it is rare that my H and I socialize together. I feel sad when I see other couples doing that together. Having couple friends has always been stressful so I just don't do it much. I have mentioned to my H that this bothers me but it doesn't bother him. I've lost much enthusiasm for trying to make this happen.

I do have close female friends and work friends. Talking about my marriage and anything personal like that is off limits. I do not do it at all. My H will accompany me to some work and social functions but they are not frequent. He has his buddies. They do mostly guy stuff that I am not intended in. He has also kept a strong boundary between his work world and me. I may go to a function or two but don't know his colleagues.

This was not exactly what I had in mind when I got married but it seems to be a working solution.

Notwendy -

I hear you loud and Clear. He had recently stated he has no interest in any of my friends. Even though it is because of them our business is prospering, because of the relationships in my community I have built up for years. But my h Bpd shows no gratefulness and I acclaim our success to the community it would not be what it is if not for those who have helped build it up. This is very sad and upsetting for me. It's as if he is denying a big part of my past and what and who has been an influence on who I am today.

Not what I invisioned in my marriage either.

I did tell my friend and mentor I respect her feelings and honesty. I mean she did put forth very big boundaries - did her sisters warn me she may lash out in this way, and say she is "crazy" - yes, am I still a little taken aback from the reaction, yes. Do I also feel it's a bit extreme from someone who asked me questions about h Bpd, yes, because I don't lie to people I'm close to, if they ask why is he not present  on more than one occasion, I feel like they should know there is something bigger at play and it's not personal.

But yes, maybe next time I will learn close friends may not want in that closely and keep it to the ones who have dealt with this and sincerely want to make sure everything is okay.

It's just hard for me I suppose because I have a lot more empathy toward people dealing w mental health matters.
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 05:36:53 AM »

You probably are more empathetic, and also you have a different relationship with your H than your friends do. I think BPD is hard to understand. My mother has BPD and for decades, I had no idea what was going on with her. If I could turn back the clock, I would have reacted differently to her behavior.

I don't know what is going on with your friend, but it is possible that she took your H's behavior personally, while you have learned not to do that. I recall once trying to help my mother with something that concerned finances. She dysregulated and told people I was trying to get her money. I was horrified and backed away- to protect myself as well as my reputation as an honest person. I was also really hurt that my mother would think and say things like that. Now, I know better. I could have waited this one out, and at least not felt as hurt by it. Your friend has her own issues, as well as fears, and she may have been very upset if your H had a meltdown while you are more understanding of it. One thing that makes BPD so confusing is that, they can pull it together at times, so when they don't, we wonder what is going on. Other kinds of mental illness are more obvious.

I also understand your hurt feelings. One of my fears as a kid is that people would not want to be my friend because of my mom. I once told a boyfriend in school about her and he broke up with me right after that. It may have not been related but I didn't know for sure. I was afraid that people would think something was wrong with me if they knew about her. Now I see that this is probably a form of enmeshment. I am not her.

I would say my H has some traits that trigger the issues I had growing up. However, he was the one who drew strict boundaries between his workplace and me right from the beginning. I took our family to some job related events I had and it didn't go well. So, I just stopped and it was less stressful to go on my own. I have also been a stay at home mother and so made friends among the other mothers and kids. We did a lot together- just moms and kids and so I have a different friend group. As you said, this is not what I imagined, and when I see people socializing in couples, I feel sad. However, it seems to work this way.
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 08:41:36 AM »

Notwendy,

Thank you so much for your insight, it's really helps. Yes the whole process can be tiring and hurtful. I also see tendencies in my mother now that I have learned about Bpd.

The money thing you are describing rings familiar. Except my undiagnosed Bpd mother went around the family gossiping about how she believes I have a sexual addiction. Which I do not. I am pretty conservative.
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2016, 01:38:53 PM »

My mother has said so many things about me to her FOO, they probably think I am completely nuts. It actually caused a rift in my relationship with them, because I really struggled with whether I should defend myself or not. They live closer to her and don't see me often, and I recognized that they were her support system, who she vented to, so I have left it alone.

But I have been afraid in the past that she would do this with people I cared about. I struggle over whether or not people would believe me or her, but have decided to let my actions speak for themselves. If someone wanted to take the time to get to know me, then they wouldn't believe what she says.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2016, 04:16:08 PM »

Regularly venting to people who then give honest and well meant advice, can be very invalidating to them when their advice is then not acted on. It leaves a feeling of its all about you and there view is not relevant. After a  while it feels very dismissive.

I think it is important for your own good that at the end of each "vent' you add a positive not at the end, a proposed solution or a balancing uplift thing. Like the fluffy dog story at the end of a news bulletin. Otherwise it leaves you and others feel worse off for the interaction.

I also dont think you need to involve everyone in your circle of venting outlets. Its not their circus and they will only sit ring side for so long.
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 12:20:40 AM »

Waverider I see what you mean!

Maybe I should have titled this better, but i was actually thanking her for business advice and it ended badly because she found out, not from me, that hBPD didn't take the advice well, even though I listened and used the advice given which yielded great results. I got chewed out for my husband Bpd not accepting the advice.

But I do see your point in not involving others, kinda hard when it's my business mentor and my decisions involve the fact my h is Bpd. Also my friends for over 15 years.

She specifically asks why this, why that... .I'm kinda honest about it like he doesn't really enjoy big social events, or he's tired and worked a lot, or he doesn't like that I have mentors... .I just feel like if you wanna know I'm gonna answer.
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 02:41:30 AM »

I just feel like if you wanna know I'm gonna answer.

Your answers are probably applying logic to explain symptoms, where as the truth is due to illogical causes. So your friends wont cut slack but simply apply logical conclusions, that it is intended personally.

If you are not openly rebuking his opinion you must be condoning it... But we know its not as simple as that, but others dont. So you get tarred with the same brush
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 03:07:18 AM »

Waverider

Yep, that makes sense now. Thank you for explaining that so clearly. That's a hard one to swollow for sure. I guess when you get married the two become one, his actions are mine too in a way to outsiders.
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 05:46:42 AM »

I don't know if they consider his actions yours, but they probably don't understand them.

BPD is very hard to understand, especially when pw BPD can act appropriately with many people and not with people closest to them- because it is that closeness that triggers their emotional issues. They also project. So it is very hard for others to see what is going on with them and they can take their comments personally. You know your H but others don't know him as well. Even with my own mother, for decades, I took what she said as her "truth" but it was only what she was saying during her dysregulation.

One aspect I have noticed is that someone with BPD can reject sound advice from someone they know and then consider a total remote stranger's advice as expert. This, I think, is because they interpret advice from people close to them as invalidating. They see it as " you are so stupid you don't know this" from someone close to them and can hear the advice better from a stranger.

When my father got ill ( he is deceased, mother is elderly), I tried to help them. The financial advice that my mother rejected was one example. I looked into assisted living situation, even visited some of them, and they rejected them. Then my mother spoke to a neighbor whose mother was living at X and that was the one she wanted. It was upsetting that they would not consider that their own daughter saw these places and had their best interests at heart, and took advice from someone who didn't know them.

It is hard to give advice to someone we care about, and I generally don't do this unless they ask and I have some solid knowledge. This is because we are personally invested in the person and the outcome. When they reject our advice, it is hurtful because the advice was given with care.

Your friend does not understand that her relationship with you is more likely to result in your H rejecting her advice, even if you don't reject it. For one, he may be jealous of the friendship and project that on to them, as well as hear it as an invalidation. Not understanding this can make his actions seem hurtful.

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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 06:10:33 AM »

Friends and advisors are often seen as a threat as being favored more than the pwBPD. As with any perceived threat they can be attacked and derided.

For most folks being attacked or devalued like this for no good reason is unacceptable. If you are dismissive of it (because in reality you can't stop it), they believe you dont really care enough to defend them. They dont have to be in what they feel as invalidating environment, so they walk. They have no vested interest to put up with it.

Outsider advise has to be brought in by the pwBPD, if you invite the outsider advise then it is a challenge to their own opinion, as they have no control over it and so feel insecure.
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 06:59:59 AM »

as a threat as being favored more than the pwBPD


yes, and not just friends who advise you.

For me, if my H sees me excited or happy about anything that is not related to him, his conclusion is " she isn't that happy with me" " she likes X better than me". " she thinks I'm stupid". The connection between this can be crazy making because really- all of us are different and know different things and one person's accomplishments or knowledge does not negate the contribution of someone else.
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2016, 03:36:08 PM »

I see a couple things about healthy relationships here. Starting with the most important.

1. You have a right to have relationships with other people. Not romantic or sexual ones. Friends. Family members.

Your husband and his opinions don't change this. He doesn't have a right to tell you who to talk to or who not to. He doesn't even have a right to know what you do say to your friends. Any more than he has a right to be involved with your therapist or this community!

2. In these relationships, you should keep things healthy. That means limit the venting as others have said.

It also means don't talk much about BPD antics with people who don't understand. As in most people. Some of your friends may have a mental health background and be better able to understand, for example.

Especially be careful who you ask for advice on such topics!

3. Having friends that you can just be "normal" with and go fishing or shopping or whatever you like with may be just as important as the people who can support you regarding your husband.

All that said... .really sucks to lose important relationships over this. 
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2016, 03:13:29 AM »

Does anyone else feel a strong conviction of this love/hate relationship you have with your significant other who has Bpd?

Like I honestly feel terrible for 1. Yes venting about how awful this disorder is and how crazy it makes my mind feel,but also 2. Like I feel bad because why am I talking about how horrible

It is but yet staying and 3. How sad is it for him that i feel like this inside every time there is a dysregulation or escalation ... .And I'm just always on the fence waiting for the time it gets to be too much - how sad is that for him, like I'm never committed I'm always just ready to jump if it gets bad enough ... PwBPD are emotionally sensitive and he must see that in me.

Like no wonder why people feel as if I'm a terrible human being or a really bad wife.

Does anyone else struggle with just feeling really awful about it all?

And I also get convicted for doing things like hanging out with my friends or seeking advice from my mentors because I know it will upset him, so isn't that not okay as a wife to do things knowing he's not okay with it?

I did go to DBT with him and his T did say what is the matter if she does listen and take their advice, it seems like she's built a really strong support system that is beneficial to you guys and your work. And of course the story in that moment was that he didn't care that I had mentors bla bla bla ... .because he does care and it does 9/10 times really bother him for seeking outside advice. It's been a topic of conversation often. It's hard to have these conversations with the T when my hBPD then changes his story.
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 03:32:15 AM »

Inconsistency is another flea we acquire. It is also the reason we do end up with conflicting doubts and weak boundaries
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2016, 04:46:48 AM »

Over time, we have less friends than we used to. I can relate to not wanting to do things that upset my H. Of course, I cared about him. When I look back at the things I didn't do, because he was uncomfortable, I realize that there really was not anything wrong with them, but I cared about him. Things like- when we were dating ( but seriously ) a male friend had an extra ticket to see a rock singer, and so, I did ask my now H if he cared that I went with this friend. He gave some reason, but now, I realize it was because it was a guy. I don't really have male friends that I spend a lot of time with, but some from childhood and I look back at times I gave up the opportunity to see them. But my H didn't tell me his feelings about it, just came up with some "logical" reason why I shouldn't go.

He also is uncomfortable when I leave for longer periods of time. Once the kids were here, it was difficult for me to attend professional meetings. He wouldn't flat out refuse to watch the kids, but there were last minute sabotages, all done with some good "reason". I soon learned to rely on sitters if I needed to go anywhere.

One event that stood out for me as odd at the time was a business trip I went on with a female friend- someone he knows very well. This is before cell phones. We had a break and went shopping for a few hours. My H had tried to get a hold of me, not an emergency, and when he could not, he called everyone we knew. I returned to the meeting to an upset H on the phone. I thought this was odd because we were not in danger, and gone for a short time.

This behavior puzzled me because he didn't tell me his feelings and would come up with some "logical" reasoning that didn't quite make sense to me, but if I tried to discuss it, it ended up in some circular argument, because I don't think they were the reason in the first place. In retrospect, I see his attempts to thwart socializing and business travel as ways to manage his own anxiety, and also I think his "reasons" were so I would not catch on to this.  I have female friends who take trips to see family, friends, but if I bring up any kind of trip he makes this "logical" argument about how it isn't fair for me to have a fun trip without him. I do go on my own to visit my parents and now my mother, but not trips to see friends.

I have always considered his feelings, but now, I feel that doing this is limiting. The kids were a natural limitation. Refusing to help watch them made it harder for me to do things, but it was a great way to limit me without the reason being obvious. With the kids being older, I now can do more things. Going to co-dependency meetings at night was a huge step for me. I never did anything in the evenings when my H was home as he often didn't like it. It was out MC who encouraged this. But I know that my H doesn't like it.

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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2016, 05:53:20 AM »

Thats important wendy, most of the changes do happen in a hidden agenda kind of way.
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2016, 06:56:06 AM »

Hidden Agenda is the theme. I don't think the intent is to be deceitful as much as it is out of fear of being seen- letting the mask down.


This is something that stumped me for years, as it is not part of my personality. In fact, I think growing up with BPD mother made me completely unaware of this. I did not catch on to any of this- from her or my H until well into adulthood, married with children.

I really think my ability to detect issues with people was altered by - although this isn't the best word for it- what had an effect of gaslighting on the part of my parents. Despite the fact that my mother's behaviors were anything but normal- we are talking scenes like out of the movie "Mommy Dearest", the next morning, my parents acted as if nothing had happened. If we brought it up, we were punished, it was denied, or we were blamed for it. The theme was "mother is normal" in our home.

I also am very upfront and honest. I would say that the idea of a hidden agenda would not be something I would do. So, I became very gullible and trusting and open. I am sure this appealed to my H as he didn't have to "read" me. What he saw is what he got. Not that he didn't make up things about me. While my personality was to take someone at face value, his is to suspect everyone. I guess if you do it yourself, you assume others do too.

But I do have boundaries of dishonesty. In general, my parents are ethical- nobody is stealing, or doing really bad things. My H in this regard is extremely ethical - hard working, conscientious. Which made seeing the little interpersonal hidden agendas even harder.

I was well into adulthood when I watched my mother boldly lie to someone, and she was so convincing, I about fell out of my chair. But her agenda was not so much evil, or unethical, but to manipulate the person into getting what she wanted. Why, because she wanted what she wanted and in the long run, it caused no harm to that person. It was an impulsive- I want it move, much like a young child would do to get something he wanted, not a maliciously motivated action.

I didn't find out about my mother's diagnosis, despite her having a long psych history that I discovered as an adult. My parents denied it.

I was completely puzzled by some of my H's behavior and the issues in our marriage for years. I think there are enough traits on the PD spectrum to fit, and yet not nearly the behaviors that I see in my mother, or some of the posts here to completely call it. Part of the picture for me is the paradox- this hard working man who seems just wonderful most of the time, and yet, has done these hidden agenda behaviors over the years- while still appearing to look good that has just made me feel crazy at times.

For instance, he will swear that he never refused to watch the kids for me, that I was free to do what I wished. Yet ( my job was family friendly) every time I brought the family to a work related conference, he would agree to watch the kids and at the last minute refuse for some reason, leaving me in the bind to miss the meeting or make other arrangements. He would also have some "logical" reason for it and being that I accept people at face value, I believed it. After this happened, I made a point to go alone, but to do that, had to get sitters in place because I no longer felt I could rely on him. Yet, to this day he claims he was supportive of me at my job.

I also had a volunteer job on weekends. I took the kids with me. It took some time to get them ready and also get ready. I asked him if he would help. He said yes. However, each morning when I was getting them ready and in the car, he would be in the shower. This happened enough for me to not count on him, yet he says " I never said I would not watch the kids". In the evenings, he would often come home long after they went to bed. So, literally speaking, he didn't outright refuse to help me with the kids if I asked, he was unavailable, and if I brought that up he would argue his point like a skilled lawyer. I don't have that skill.

Sometimes, I would decide that it just wasn't worth the effort to try to do things or socialize if it involved his cooperation. Over time, our friend circle diminished, my work contacts did too. If his behavior diminished his fear or anxiety, then it worked well for him, and fit with my being co-dependent too.

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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2016, 03:38:46 PM »

These hidden agenda excuses as partners we tend to be come blind to them as that is our acclimatized "normal". However going back to there original topic, to outsiders these excuses and cover ups may work a couple of times as they are very believable, but ultimately it comes across as "off" and too much efforts so the pwBPD gets bypassed, and you also by association.

The result is friends and acquaintances start to drop off and you don't really know why.

I read this so obviously these days, and I see it may times a day on micro issues.  A lot of it comes from impulses and needs which they know, or perceive, wont go down well so they are buried underneath covers stories.

eg If my wife decides she needs to go to the store for something for dinner. I know this is not normal as she doesn't shop and she rarely cooks. It will be for something like she has an obsessive fad she wants to fulfill. eg craving ice cream or accidentally walk into a dress shop .
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2016, 04:03:54 PM »

  A lot of it comes from impulses and needs which they know, or perceive, wont go down well so they are buried underneath covers stories.

The crazy part is that it is the hidden agenda part that makes me crazy more than the impulse or need. My H is the chief wage earner, and I think he does have every right to spend some money on things he wants. For things he thought I would not be happy about, well he bought them anyway and didn't tell me. It's the not being straightforward that makes me crazy.

As to a hidden agenda, well if he does something unusually nice, I know what that agenda is  

But I wish he'd just say it instead.

With my mother, we just assume that nothing is straightforward.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2016, 04:52:53 PM »

yep it becomes an entrenched personality trait that inevitably self sabotages by turning molehills into mountains by use of avoidance.

It is this type of behavior that often flags people with personality disorders as being a bit "off" without being able to put a finger on it. It makes people wary, and they think we must be silly if we can't see it. Initially we make excuses because we want to believe it... We inadvertently validate the invalid by backing up weak and convoluted excuses.

Is it any wonder why we are classified as just too much hard work and frustrating to be around?

To maintain healthy friendships we need to be more accepting of the disorder, realistic and open about it without constantly seeking council or venting to anyone who will listen. Others need to see that we are not part of it, nor consumed by it, but rather that we are supporting someone who is. Trying to block, or cover it up, out of embarrassment makes us feel lessor and ultimately fails.

An analogy would be couples who have no kids tend to get fed up of their friends endlessly talking about what little Johnny and Lucinda have been up to on a daily basis, or how to get baby poo out of the sheets. . At the other end of the scale you cant deny you have kids and pretend it doesn't affect your life with endless dramas. It all comes down to balance.

You can't let BPD consume your life, which is why outside of this forum I no long read up or research it, rarely do I ever attempt to explain it anymore.
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2016, 06:44:49 PM »

I agree, and I think there is a learning curve. Having had no explanation for my mother's behavior for decades, finding an answer was like turning the light on after being raised in the dark. I know I read every book I could get my hands on at first, but don't read them anymore.

Being a bit "off " without me being able to put my finger on it is exactly how I felt about my H and my marriage, yet compared to my mother, that "off " was so small I didn't know what to make of it. I didn't even think males could have BPD - I thought it was females only. I did read the book "Shadow Syndromes" about people who would not have a diagnosis, but could have some traits that might cause issues in relationships. Couple that with the fact that I was raised in a BPD family and it all started to click. Learning about BPD has shed a lot of light on the "fleas" I have and how this influenced my behaviors.

This forum also helps to validate me in some way, as again, being raised with "mom is normal" left me to doubt my own ideas and impressions. But yes, we should not let the behaviors of a disordered person run our lives.

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« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2016, 01:54:51 AM »

Notwendy -

I haven't read all of these posts, but the travel with friends thing, the Bpd mother and family, the not knowing what Bpd is but knowing something was wrong thing... .I feel like you have lived my life! Everything you're talking about I'm like yep, yes, ugh-huh, exactly!

Thank you. Your posts have been educational and validating! But what's funny is with Bpd family members they also leave you feeling invalidated as well - ironic so it's like the cycle continues on... .Trying to learn to break it.

And on a positive note my 2nd cousin came to town, she needed watching, I had her for almost 10 hours and had a fun day for her... .Positive aspect was I wa being very mindful and validating... .For example she was like I should buy something for my sister and I would validate to her that is very sweet of you to think of your sister that she may feel left out. And it just kept happening - so highlight of the day I am learning to validate better even if in my marriage it feels like I'm not moving forward in my progress with hBPD. It was pretty evident today for me anyway!

Thanks everyone and this site!
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« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2016, 02:14:38 AM »

Excerpt
Is it any wonder why we are classified as just too much hard work and frustrating to be around?

To maintain healthy friendships we need to be more accepting of the disorder, realistic and open about it without constantly seeking council or venting to anyone who will listen. Others need to see that we are not part of it, nor consumed by it, but rather that we are supporting someone who is. Trying to block, or cover it up, out of embarrassment makes us feel lessor and ultimately fails.

An analogy would be couples who have no kids tend to get fed up of their friends endlessly talking about what little Johnny and Lucinda have been up to on a daily basis, or how to get baby poo out of the sheets. barfy. At the other end of the scale you cant deny you have kids and pretend it doesn't affect your life with endless dramas. It all comes down to balance.

You can't let BPD consume your life, which is why outside of this forum I no long read up or research it, rarely do I ever attempt to explain it anymore.

Waverider -

Spot on. This should be read by everyone. This had an impact and is very clear!

Also the excuse thing about your wife. I didn't know that was part of it but now makes all the sense in the world. Every time he would go smoke a cigarette (ashamed about smoking, hides it from his parents, hid it from me for months, or who knows how long... .) he always will make excuses to go outside to smoke, but will always say, need to get groceries, do you want a movie tonight, or I need to go grab... .Always comes back smelling like smoke and I started catching on and would say "why don't you just say you're going for a smoke?"

And when parents visit - no smoking as often, only at work. Guilt and shame from his super religious upbringing. - could that be a factor in Bpd! Not the lying hiding part or excuses, but very religious, up right, don't read Harry Potter he will bring the devil into your home, finatics - can that cause fully and shame and judgments and maybe help a person become Bpd? I mean I know my husbands mom has BPD she's in DBT and has a classic walking on eggshells Bpd upbringing... .

Just curious if the very strict religious practices could be a correlation.

Even my possible Bpd mother Went to catholic school with very abusive nuns, can seeing that also reinforce Bpd characteristics even if they weren't abused but saw it. She just told me a story today about a nun slamming a kids head in his tables cubby and smacking him on the back with a ruler! What the ... .And my dads cousin also having been schooled by nuns agreed to the kind of violence that she too observed.
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« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2016, 03:19:30 AM »

Just curious if the very strict religious practices could be a correlation.

If rigid conforming is part of someones upbringing they soon learn that keeping up a facade is paramount, this leads to truth being a poor cousin to perception.

Rigid conformity is often the face of role models projecting their ideals onto their charges. Wanting someone else to live up to yours can be seen as seeking validation of your own standards.

You can only live up to your own ideals, if you attempt to meet someone else's you will fail, and feel the need to fake it just to appease. It is one way the traits are passed down.
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2016, 05:25:03 AM »

I think rigid conforming in a family is the main idea.

This could be played out in various family cultures: strict religion, not showing emotions, WOE around a disordered person, living up to expectations, having a narcissistic parent project on to them

It means being invested in putting on a mask- hiding who you are. I think it also involves being shamed as a child- for being a human, a child.

Religion isn't necessarily the problem, but in a disordered family it can involve shaming and fear " you will go to Hell for spilling that milk", or arguing with a sibling or being shamed about sexual feelings.

For my family, we were not particularly strict about religion but had to maintain the "mother is normal" image and WOE around her.

These family "cultures" can be intergenerational and they can pass on the behaviors, because behaviors learned in childhood feel normal to them, and they can attract another person who grew up in a family like this as a partner.

Because children are unique and have their own personality and resilience, not all children raised in these kinds of families will have BPD. It is a spectrum. The behaviors they learn in their FOO may have worked for them in their FOO, but they can cause issues later with other people. So in the same family where one child may have BPD traits, others may have co-dependency traits.  This is one reason that I was motivated to work on myself once I understood my mother and the family patterns in my FOO.

I attend ACOA groups and one topic is "religious abuse". Children form their own image of God based on their parents. This makes sense, because to a child, the most powerful and all knowing person in their world is their parents. A disordered or abusive parent can present an abusive model of religion to a child. As adults, we form our own ideas of God based on mature abstract thinking. Some of the members of my group have worked on forming different ideas of religion not based on what was presented in their FOO.
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