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Author Topic: She says she wants intimacy, but...  (Read 438 times)
Icthelight
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« on: January 05, 2016, 05:09:23 PM »

When I do the things she asks for, she says that there's usually something missing in my actions or approach. I can't seem to get it right.

We're currently on friendly terms, so that's good. I'm just feeling frustrated and unwanted, and I'm trying to not let it get to me. Also feeling resentful because I would like to have sex more than once a month, especially when I'm the one being blamed for our sexless marriage.

She says that I don't find her attractive and that's why I don't initiate sex. When I initiate, she complains that she's not a microwave, she wants to be courted, romanced, touched, all before we get to the bedroom. I get that, most women want that. My issue is that when I try those things, she either rejects me or doesn't reciprocate. I feel like a nuisance to her. She says she likes touch, to be spooned, kissed and that will lead to more intimacy and sex. She says that she doesn't need the "sexual act" from me because she takes care of herself (she's told me that she master... .tes almost daily). She wants me to do the things that she can't do for herself. Trying to please her has been a moving target for over 20 years. The good thing is that at least I now understand why she rejects, doesn't reciprocate or gets angry with me. Her feelings change. Although she says she wants intimacy and closeness, I believe that when it happens, it scares her and she pulls away.

I'm wondering if anyone has experienced similar frustrations, rejections or put downs in the bedroom and if you've found a way to improve things? How do you find consistency in this area and not let your ego and feelings be tarnished?

I know there are many here that have it worse than me. I'm just wondering if there's a better way to approach intimacy with my uBPDw.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 07:47:54 AM »

I'll take a guess at this one, but I think being open with one's sexual desire is a very vulnerable place. If she takes care of that on her own, then she doesn't have to feel this vulnerable. It gives her a sense of control. However, this also takes away much physical desire for you. I think probably everyone does this to some extent, but daily would take away from your sex life together.

Early on in your relationship, did you ever say no to her if she initiated sex? Probably you did, we all do, sometimes we are tired, not up to it. I  think if we say "no" to our partner frequently, this is hurtful, but for us to be able to say "yes" we also have to be able to say "no". Did she ever say "no" to you and you react poorly?

I think if we have a core childhood wound, being this vulnerable and hearing "no" could activate that. I say this because, I unknowingly did it. Ordinarily, I was attracted to my H and available, but when I was pregnant, I had a lot of nausea and just felt tired. My H takes these kinds of things as a personal rejection of him. I didn't know that. The natural decrease in desire from being pregnant and then up all night with babies ( he didn't help which added to my being tired and resentful) was not perceived by him as a temporary situation.

This must have triggered something with my H, because he became deeply angry, resentful and then "paid me back" for his perceived rejection by me by rejecting me. Since I had no idea what was going on, it truly confused me as well as felt hurtful to have my H not have any interest in me. If I asked him what was going on, I got no real response, or he would blame me for something. Like your wife, I asked for romance which he refused to do. However, if he wanted sex, and I said no, he would rage at me. This was at night, and it would wake up the kids. I don't even recall how long I did this, but I basically became not much more than a blow up doll. No romance, no connection, just the quickest way for a new mom to get some sleep, and not wake up the kids. If I said no, it could lead to an argument.

Although my H has made strides to improve this ( he agreed to MC and in the grand scheme of things, has only traits and is self aware that this caused damage to the relationship) the problem is also me. This triggered a core hurt for me and it is hard to get over this. Hence, I am also wary of showing desire for him, because risking rejection is hard after this has happened. My H on the other hand, feels the frustration of having a wife who is less affectionate than he wishes.

Your situation may be different from mine, but I think the common theme is that somewhere a long time ago, you unknowingly triggered one of your wife's core wounds, and at this point she is way too fearful to let go of her control of her sexual desire. Your wife's rejection of you triggered something in you, and at this time, created new hurt. Now, naturally, you are frustrated and resentful yourself- and you may be approaching sex from this place even if you are being romantic. I say this not because you shouldn't be romantic- you should! But because it may not feel authentic if the goal is to get to it if you know what I mean. My H used to rub my back in the mornings if he woke up, but if I didn't wake up, or fell asleep, he'd accuse me of ignoring him. I truly wasn't. But now, if he rubs my back while I am asleep, I don't see this as romantic, but " wake up and have sex or else I will be mad at you". Now, this is my issue to deal with as it isn't fair to him to continue thinking this.

There's a certain sense of safety and control to not be the one who is wanting the other. Your wife knows you want her, and she may be afraid to be the one who wants you. This doesn't mean you pull back from her, that is more of the same and reacting to her.

I really think sexual issues are very complicated and probably require a therapist to deal with core wounds. Your wife's are hers to deal with. You can't help those. However, you can work on yours, and so approach her from a place different from your hurt, like you did in the beginning of your relationship, if it is all possible. Be romantic, but not invested in the outcome. I think this may be what your wife wants, the romance without the emotional baggage that happened in the relationship. The hand holding, the affection ,and the anticipation with an unknown result.

I don't know if this is possible for you, but who knows? It doesn't hurt to try.

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Icthelight
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 10:07:52 AM »

Thank you NotWendy. Very insightful and helpful. I declare you as my new therapist Smiling (click to insert in post)

Early on in your relationship, did you ever say no to her if she initiated sex? Probably you did, we all do, sometimes we are tired, not up to it. I  think if we say "no" to our partner frequently, this is hurtful, but for us to be able to say "yes" we also have to be able to say "no". Did she ever say "no" to you and you react poorly?

Yes, I said no and avoided sex with her many times because I didn't feel safe and I felt insecure with her. Throughout our marriage, we've struggled to get along consistently. Lots and lots of hurt feelings on both sides. She didn't understand me and I didn't understand her. We reacted differently with our hurt feelings. I withdrew and licked my wounds, basically, wanted to be alone to self soothe. She, still wanted to have sex. She would rage, insult me and in my view, put me down and once she did, she was ready for sex. I unfortunately, don't work that way. I wanted to get as far away from her as possible, so either I avoided her or half a$$ed intimacy, which she noticed and took as rejection. So, yes, we've had issues here that go way back.

Your situation may be different from mine, but I think the common theme is that somewhere a long time ago, you unknowingly triggered one of your wife's core wounds, and at this point she is way too fearful to let go of her control of her sexual desire.

Actually, I can relate to your story and find many similarities. And you nailed it by pointing out that this issue goes back to a long time ago. I was looking for the cliff notes, quick fix version  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I really think sexual issues are very complicated and probably require a therapist to deal with core wounds. Your wife's are hers to deal with. You can't help those. However, you can work on yours, and so approach her from a place different from your hurt, like you did in the beginning of your relationship, if it is all possible. Be romantic, but not invested in the outcome. I think this may be what your wife wants, the romance without the emotional baggage that happened in the relationship. The hand holding, the affection ,and the anticipation with an unknown result.

I don't know if this is possible for you, but who knows? It doesn't hurt to try.

I have been more affectionate and romantic and she actually acknowledged it yesterday. She said that she noticed my effort and thanked me. However, she said that she is having difficulty receiving and reciprocating because she can't trust me. She thinks that I am going to leave her, she just doesn't know when. She has deep abandonment fears. She actually got pretty upset as she was telling me this and started telling me things that I did years ago, things I said, and painted me dark black for a few moments. She started crying and really getting angry. This is where I tense up, and start justifying, explaining and countering what she says. Not yesterday, I held it together, I didn't JADE and validated her feelings. This was DIFFICULT because she said some things that I know are either not true, or twisted to fit her reality. I bit my tongue so much, I thought I was going to draw blood.

Amazing results. She appeared to be confused by my response but little by little, she started to calm down. I excused myself and returned 15 minutes later once I felt less tense. Last night's interaction could of turned really ugly as it usually does.

I guess I need to continue to give to her without expecting anything in return. That is difficult for me and something I am working on. Also, I'm trying to not take things so personally. Thank you for your input.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 10:42:43 AM »

I'm glad I could be of help.

I think that the time you reacted out of hurt and rejected you also hurt her in a way you were probably not fully aware. My H appeared so confident and sensible at the time, that I never imagined a "No", especially when it was pretty clear how I was feeling physically that had nothing to do with my feelings for him, would be taken so personally. But now I realize that things that have nothing to do with him can be seen by him as a deep hurtful rejection.

Likewise, when you were feeling hurt and denied your wife sex, it probably was not evident to you that she was acting out of her own hurt.

It works this way: one person feels hurt ( Victim) and does something in reaction to that to their partner. The partner then feels hurt ( victim) by the person ( persecutor) and lashes out ( to rescue themselves). Person on the receiving line is already hurt, feels more hurt, reacts from that hurt and a cycle of hurt starts.

It is unlikely that you will get a full apology from someone who can easily get their shame triggered and so your wife may not be able to apologize for her part in this. However, a sincere and heartfelt apology from you for your part might do a lot to help. I know the danger is that the pwBPD can then use it to justify themselves, or against you, but I think, the value of an apology if it is sincere is worth that risk. It doesn't mean owning up to what you didn't do, but a sincere " I know that my actions hurt you and for that I am sorry". An apology doesn't include an excuse or any JADEing or other motivation.

It is a great start that you have seen the results of your efforts as well as her honest expression of fear, that you will reject her again. I'm sure you can see how that can trigger abandonment fears. Also, for women in general, we are so bombarded by photoshopped images, that a rejection can trigger our insecurities. You may think your wife is gorgeous but she may be feeling self conscious about anything she sees as a figure flaw and rejections can trigger those insecurities.

I think you are on the right track with affection and perhaps an apology for hurting her feelings without expectation. It may take longer than you wish to rebuild her trust, and she may test you, but I hope in time it gets better for both of you. As to your own hurts, don't react out of them, but try to work on them. They may not be something she actually did, but something she triggered.

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Icthelight
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 11:23:15 AM »

I've apologized many times for hurting her, but I've usually done it when we're talking about the issue. Many times, she's so upset, she usually doesn't hear the apology.

However, a sincere and heartfelt apology from you for your part might do a lot to help. I know the danger is that the pwBPD can then use it to justify themselves, or against you, but I think, the value of an apology if it is sincere is worth that risk.

An unsolicited apology coming from me, that's a scary thought. I recall bringing things up to her and it blowing up in my face. I try to avoid bringing up issues because it usually doesn't go well. However, I see your point, and think that sincerely apologizing for hurting her is a good idea. I really am sorry for hurting her, so I can be sincere. I will remember not to JADE, validate a lot and not expect anything in return.

Thank you again.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 01:04:21 PM »

Yes, we have been hurt so many times, we tend to be defensive and protective.

The sad part is that they lash out because of their pain, and they are not aware of the pain in others. That doesn't mean we can fix their pain. That is there's to fix and there is nothing we can do about that.

But we can work on our own core pain, as well as not take their reaction personally. An apology is actually for us, not them, and it is hard to know how they will react. However, when we apologize sincerely, it comes from a different place than hurt, and there is a possibility it may be heard.

They have hurt us, but we don't have to be hurt by their words if we can see where they come from. Being intimate is really hard if one has a poor sense of self. We love that idealization stage because we feel attractive and wanted. If she (he) thinks I am hot, well I must be hot. But then if someone thinking we are hot makes us hot, then the rejection is twisted into " you are not hot, you're ugly, you're a failure" and the sad part is that it feels as if the other person is really saying this.

The book Passionate Marriage talks about this kind of thing a lot. When we can be intimate with another person, feel confident, and be able to modulate our own emotions- especially if we get a "no" or feel rejected, then we can be intimate with someone and not be so afraid. Your wife may have more difficulty with this than you do, maybe always, but you can work on yourself and not feel as if you need to be defensive with her.
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HurtinNW
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 04:44:57 PM »

My partner and I have really struggled in this area too. I've felt his desire was a moving target. When we met, for instance, and he was idolizing me, he would often say how glad he was to have a partner with a healthy sex drive. He would say his past girlfriends were not interested enough. Then six months into the relationship, suddenly he was painting me black for wanting "too much" sex. He began saying how sex wasn't important at all... .a complete reversal!

I realize now I had triggered him. I can remember exactly when it happened. I had felt I was doing most the initiating. I approached him in a calm moment and told him I wanted him to come forward more. This really triggered him. In his mind I had completely rejected him. So he began rejecting me. I became triggered as well. Lots of hurtful things were said and done. He is really nasty when angry. And I am a woman, I am tenderhearted and easily hurt when it comes to things like body image and sexuality. I felt very put down for my sexuality and this made it harder for me to feel good about sex too.

I also realized later that my partner was using the threat of withholding to keep me from establishing boundaries. If he gets angry about something he doesn't want to make love; hence, he has kept me on eggshells to not make him mad. I've become aware of this now. Sex can be a way for a BPD to establish control.

I very much agree with notwendy that addressing the core wound is the way to go. Endless fighting won't get you anywhere, and neither will resentments. My boyfriend and I have been successful in this area, unlike some other things. I can tell you what has helped. One time when we were both regulated I brought up the idea we have a "bedroom menu." My boyfriend really responds to structure and predictability, and I knew this would feel safe to him. Structure keeps the chaos at bay. The way our bedroom menu works is when we go to bed we ask each other, "would you like the menu?" If one person wants the menu, the other person then offers at least three options. So say I want to make love. I ask for the menu. Maybe he is tired and doesn't want to make love, but he offers three choices, and one has to include pleasing me another way. Same with if I am not interested, I include at least one choice to please him. A typical menu offering might be: back rub, listening to you talk, or oral sex. I think this put the focus back on us pleasing each other, and took the focus off our mutual hurts and resentments. It's pretty surprising how often one thing leads to another as well... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

Also... .I don't know your comfort level, but you can suggest doing something different and fun as a way to break the bad pattern. It could range from telling her you want to treat her to a spa day to taking her "toy" shopping. Of course you know how responsive you would be to something like that, and your own comfort level. Validating is really important, and it sounds like you are doing a lot of that. Even if she doesn't seem to be listening, tell her often how sexy she is, how beautiful. Brag about how gorgeous she is to others and make sure she can hear you.

More than anything breaking the patterns by using the tools here will help too. Good luck!




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ArleighBurke
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Relationship status: was married - 15 yrs
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 07:30:09 PM »

Ice: my wife is similar. There's always some reason, something else she wants, something I'm not doing or not doing quite right.

To me, it's the whole BPD feelings=facts point. She feels "unsure/scared/vulnerable" about sex. Probably because it's intimacy which she hates, or maybe she remembers that one time 3yrs ago where I accidentally scratched her during sex, or she's having a feeling fat day or any number of other excuses.

So for whatever reason, she doesn't "feel" like she wants sex. And that HAS to be YOUR fault - it can't possibly be a problem with her! So she finds whatever excuse comes to mind and there it is!

I have no solution.
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Inharmsway

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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 08:04:49 AM »

I share your sentiments guys.

I was accused of being to passive, and If initiate then he's not in the mood, or you not touching in a certain way, you aren't kissing them properly or my all time favourite, "You aren't being romantic!" Whatever that phrase means. I just realized that affection with him it's a moving target. As much as he craved and yearned for it, he feared it just as much.

Sometimes he'd say you don't know where my spot is, nobody on this earth can ever figure out where his"spot" is. Then I'm told, You don't really know me and you claim you love me. Come to think of it, he's never ever mentioned that he loves me in the +2 year we've been together. he'd always say i care for you. If ever he had to use the words love, he'd put them in inverted commas or quotation marks. Maybe this was his way of absolving himself of any responsibility/feelings/emotions in the event he had to leave me.

I found comfort in the fact that he always complained about the same things with his previous conquests. So perhaps I'm wasn't so romantically challenged after all, it's all of us that came to audition on this stage also known as his wonderful and non progressive LIFE.

Friends are telling me that he's still offering sex to random strangers on the internet, that way i guess there's no feelings involved. What a perpetual horrific cycle to be stuck in.


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Lou12
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 08:45:44 AM »

Hi Icthelight, what you have described right there is exactly how my husband felt about me and your wife's reactions are exactly like mine! Now I would say I a definitely a bit BPD although certainly not enough for a diagnosis just lots of traits.

When I described all those things to my husband about what I wanted and needed then changed them a day later it was because I wanted to feel a certain way towards him that I was not able to feel. Example... I would think 'if he just wined and dined me a little' then he would, and I would think 'no that's not making me want him,  'I'll see if it's something else'. Point is i constantly changed all the time about what it was I needed so how would he be able to accommodate that.

Looking back on reflection I now realise that had he have just stepped back and got on with his own things then it would of allowed me to come to him. This worked for me on the occasions he did do it. It's confusing I know because I would say 'I want more affection' he would comply and then I'd think 'will you give me some space'. The poor guy couldn't win. And I wish he wouldn't have tried to win. I feel that had he made himself more desirable in himself (like the guy I met) I would have come to him more.

When he initiated sex, I could feel his insecurity. I wanted him to pursue me with confidence like he did when we met.

Maybe it would help if you stop pursuing her and trying to please her for a while and spend some time on yourself and getting back to the guy she met possibly?

Hope that helps
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Lou12
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 08:46:54 AM »

Ps we separated due to something unrelated so I'm not implying that was cause of break up.
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Icthelight
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2016, 10:38:43 AM »

Thank you very much for your suggestions and taking the time to respond, I very much appreciate it. Just writing it out and getting it out there has helped lesson the burden. Thank you.

When he initiated sex, I could feel his insecurity. I wanted him to pursue me with confidence like he did when we met.

Because of all of the mixed messages, hurtful things she has said in the past, and bad experiences in the bedroom, this is how many times I approach sex. I get that it is not very romantic and not very attractive. I am now focusing more on self care and trying to not take things so personally. My goal is to gain my confidence back.

Maybe it would help if you stop pursuing her and trying to please her for a while and spend some time on yourself and getting back to the guy she met possibly?



I have been doing more of this lately by focusing more on myself. Last week she said, "you're back to the old you, selfish, cold and mean." Normally, this would rattle me and my friend JADE would enter the convo. Not this time. I paused, took a deep breathe, reflected and then validated her feelings. I then approached her and gave her a hug. That would not have been my reaction in the past. This week, she told me how she notices me trying to be more affectionate, loving and caring, but she's not feeling it in return. So, her messages and feelings are all over the place. I need to continue to focus on self care, not taking things personally and being consistent.

Thanks again.
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