Not sure I have what it takes...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, there is my other thread about the night in the hotel.  Wife gets home supposedly to have kids help with garage project.  The boys that were going to help were sent over to my FIL house to help over there.  Nobody asked.  I didn't try to intervene.    Then my body had a breakdown, I am assuming from stress.  All the issues are known disabilities I have been working with for a while.  Sorry if TMI, but by bowels got out of control and I spent a long time on potty.  Followed by some back spasms.  I spent am in a hot tub right now trying to relax and get sorted out.    Wife came in room and said "I thought you wanted to work on the garage."  I didn't explain much as I didn't feel like it.  She asked if I needed something like Ibuprofen and I declined.  I am in no mood to explain.  She left and as I sit here, I wonder what I am doing with my choices that put me here.    Mentally I think I have the knowledge and will to press on.  For my body to make it my level of self care and boundary enforcement is going to have to skyrocket.  Things look bleak right now.  

FF

[formflier]

So, there is my other thread about the night in the hotel.  Wife gets home supposedly to have kids help with garage project.  The boys that were going to help were sent over to my FIL house to help over there.  Nobody asked.  I didn't try to intervene.    Then my body had a breakdown, I am assuming from stress.  All the issues are known disabilities I have been working with for a while.  Sorry if TMI, but by bowels got out of control and I spent a long time on potty.  Followed by some back spasms.  I spent am in a hot tub right now trying to relax and get sorted out.    Wife came in room and said "I thought you wanted to work on the garage."  I didn't explain much as I didn't feel like it.  She asked if I needed something like Ibuprofen and I declined.  I am in no mood to explain.  She left and as I sit here, I wonder what I am doing with my choices that put me here.    Mentally I think I have the knowledge and will to press on.  For my body to make it my level of self care and boundary enforcement is going to have to skyrocket.  Things look bleak right now.  

FF

[Verbena]

You've had the patience of a saint.  Don't beat yourself up too much that your body finally said enough and reacted this way. 

I'm curious how much your older children understand about your wife's mental illness.  It's very concerning that she does not hestitate to act out in front of them. 

Take care of yourself. 

[Fian]

Hang in there, the stress of a move will eventually pass.  You do need to communicate with your wife, about what you are going, though.  You can't fault her for not knowing if you don't tell her.

[formflier]

You are right.  I have told her I don't feel well.  I am hesitant to go into much detail.  She will work details into personal attacks.  She claims, at times, I am faking and I am really just lazy.  I no longer let her be aware of medical details or be around my doctors because of past arguments with them.  Yes, arguing with medical professionals in a exam room about what is wrong with me and what drugs are used to treat that.  Sigh.  So I minimize details.  

FF

[formflier]

So, I am obviously falling apart.  The data gatherer in me somehow got me to look at my cpap machine.  30 day average and 7 day average of just over four hours of therapy per night.  I knew I was off, but didn't think it was that bad.  Sigh,

FF

[Notwendy]

I am sorry you are not feeling well. Of course your health is a priority- and so do what is necessary to take care of your well being.

I have seen a similar reaction of someone with BPD to a spouse not feeling well. Disability in my father triggered this kind of reaction from my mother. When thinking about this from the point of view of someone with BPD one can imagine how this triggers fears in them - abandonment- and so they lash out when it is only appropriate to show concern.

Even in the most stable families- disability is an emotional challenge.

It is possible that this along with the stress of moving has caused her to disregulate. This doesn't excuse her behavior but it explains why she can not be emotionally supportive to you. In this case you need to look out for your physical well being.

[formflier]

Yep, she sprung through the door said she brought me spaghetti.  Then hopped out of room and semi slammed bedroom door.  I went out to get some food and asked for her to come to bedroom so we could talk.  I let her know my cpap numbers and began to talk about my other stuff.   She cut me off and told me to go to bed and informed me that after 11pm she will watch TV in basement.  No discussion, She walked out after she informed me.

[GaGrl]

Formalized, I will share with you that I spent significant time moving past anger at my DH's ex because of the residual health issues attributable to a 33 year relationship that stressed his body to permanent damage. My DH struggles with diverticulitis (exacerbated by stress), high blood pressure, tight muscle tension that triggers back spasms... .you get the picture.

This health situation is very, VERY real.

[formflier]

Night two in a hotel, sigh.  

FF

[flourdust]

Night two in a hotel... .sigh.

Oh no! More raging after she told you to go to bed?

[MaroonLiquid]

Night two in a hotel... .sigh.

FF

Sorry to hear that FF.  I will say a prayer for you and your health.

[formflier]

Now I am keyed up and can't sleep.  I was woken up by d2 screaming outside my bedroom door.  S15 was wrestling her.    Not sure of some events and time.  Pretty scary.  I ended up in basement staring across room at my wife.  I think the only words spoken was me saying I was woken up.  Apparently the TV room downstairs us going to be a pool table room.  They were installing a pool table.    The surreal thing is that it seemed everyone else looked away and ignored me.    It lasted a long time.  Didn't seem like good idea to risk another wakeup.  I am now keyed up, need sleep but can't seem to  

FF  

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh man, if you are not sleeping well, AND you CPAP is not getting you the O2 you need... .

Are you 'functioning' on insufficient O2 to the brain?

I have seen a woman who's O2 came off in the middle of the night.  She acted like she had full dementia, needed assistance for over 24 hrs due to cognitive impairments from lack of oxygen.  She needed help remembering how to brush her teeth and such... .was not good at all.

[sweetheart]

Hi ff,

It is not clear in your post why u spent another night in a hotel, as you said ur w was going to watch TV downstairs 

How does the situation with your toddler and teenager fit with what was happening, did you manage to sort this out for them ?

[Notwendy]

I hope you get some sleep.

I'm confused about the bedtimes in your home. I get that there are lots of kids, and kids can get rowdy. It's good that there is a basement for them to play in. Teens also don't go to bed early. But in general, there can be a family agreement for quiet time after 10 pm. ( or 9 pm) or whatever time you decide on. At this time, kids need to be in their rooms- reading, doing homework or sleeping. Two year olds can wake up and want their parents, but unless they are sick, a quick hug and being put back to bed gets them to learn that bedtime is bedtime ( you know that there can be an extinction burst with this, but persistence gets them in bed. With your sleeping condition, you can enlist an older teen to help get the child to learn that bedtime is bedtime.

I'm pretty certain you know this, and I understand if your wife undermines your rules, but bedtime is bedtime, and I don't think parents can function- get to work, take kids to school, without some kind of regular bedtime hour. I have a hard time comprehending why your wife can not go along with this and be quiet at night herself- the kids up all night would interrupt her sleep too.

A MC advised us that trying to talk about anything inflammatory or emotional when we are tired is not likely to go well. With your C PAP machine telling you that you have had too little sleep, you are not at your best. For the moment, do what you need to do to get some rest. Within your home though, you need to sleep as well, even if this means making a sleeping space for you- somewhere quiet- a bed in a room somewhere with a noise cancelling machine and where you know you can sleep.

I understand this is difficult. My mother is somewhat unpredictable and has woken me up at night. I chose not to stay with her when I visit and this is one reason. The other is that I feel I need some quiet time to myself. This is not easy when one is a stay at home parent with young kids around, and a wife with BPD. You've had a lot of changes and are tired. Perhaps a first step is to establish a bedtime routine for everyone and a way to get the sleep you need, if that is possible.

[formflier]

Hi ff, It is not clear in your post why u spent another night in a hotel, as you said ur w was going to watch TV downstairs    How does the situation with your toddler and teenager fit with what was happening, did you manage to sort this out for them ?

 I believe I was asleep for a little while, when the screaming, wrestling thing happened outside my door.  It's been a few years, before I started posting on bpdfamily that there have been sleep deprivation issues that resulted in me loosing track of time or otherwise having gaps in understanding.    That was scary to me.  I was concerned that another wakeup would result in something disastrous.  There was no indication from my wife that she would take any action to control noise in the house.  She just looked at me.  Basically, it was a limit on myself as I was unsure of my ability to be responsible for my actions.  At the same time I'm wondering about the pool table in the TV room, more stuff happening in the house that is my way or the highway from my wife.  It was a surreal moment.  

FF

[formflier]

  Notwendy, I'm confused about bedtimes in my house as well.  Everything you have said has been preached to us and agreed on by my wife and I in every MC and FT situation that we have been in.  As well as parenting classes at church.  I have a choice to try and force kids into bed at agreed on bedtime.  If wife says let them stay up to spend "quality time" with me there is no compromise.    Friday night wife took all kids out to eat.  S20 and D18 and I were specifically left out.  There was no option, she ordered them in the van.  Very loudly over a cell phone S15 (or possibly S13, but pretty sure it was S15) called S20 and said that "mommy said S20 and D18 are allowed to come if they want"  Same thing with a threat on Saturday morning (yesterday) to involve police if I tried to prevent her from taking kids to water park.  Called back to inform me she was bringing kids home in 30 minutes to help me with garage.  Showed up a couple hours later and kids immediately started focusing on eating and then older boys were obviously getting ready to go somewhere.  I said I didn't understand what was going on and they said they were told to go over and do something in FIL garage or something like that.  That is when my body let loose on me.  Understand that there are many times when my wife and I converse like normal people.  She was the one saying this was the perfect house and pushing to purchase it because of the ability to separate functions (needs) in the house.  I was pleased with this and thought it progress.  She was the one that undid the plan.   So, as you can see, we planned and agreed on a place in the house where I can get my sleep needs met.    My wife doesn't follow agreements with any sort of regularity.    I got a few hours sleep last night.  More spasms.  I seem functional at the moment, but would not at all say clearheaded.  

FF  

[formflier]

  We are one week into the school routine in the new location.  So, my comments about school bedtimes are really more historical.  It's been years since we have written down family rules about bedtimes or other routines (exception is the infamous chore chart).  We used to write everything down, based on some marriage classes and parenting classes at church.  You guys can fill in the blanks as to why she refuses to feel "controlled" by what is written down.  I've seen her demand kids be in the by by 730 on school nights and seen it regularly happen as late as 930 to 10pm.  This would be for a kindergartner up.    The only consistency is the inconsistency.  

FF

[chump]

Hi FF,

I just wanted to post a quick note of support. Wow buddy, it sounds incredibly difficult right now. I can't even imagine how hard this must be for you, like living in a psychological war zone. The most basic building blocks of life, sleep, health, a little peace, you've had to retreat to a hotel to get the last two nights. And 8 kids counting on you to somehow hold it all together. You are one of the true heroes of the "staying" board, and we're all rooting for you.

Chump

[formflier]

  I don't think I'm "missing" anything.  I post lots of details because sometimes people point out something I have missed.  There could be a million reasons why she has dysregulated.  The first "blip" on the radar was a dust up earlier in the week about me being able to sleep due to TV.  I asked her to go downstairs, she said "No I can't do that, "  I was able to get back to sleep.  Then there was a text from her about going to a counselor.    She texted about wanting to talk.  I was available, we talked, she said she was good.  It was all about unpacking and storage project I was working on.  Friday morning (2 days ago) I surprised her in the morning with her car in the garage.  Storage project was done night before.  She had gone to sleep early me S20, and D18 finish the project and put in the car.  She left for work on Friday morning seeming happy.  We had a long good stretch, things seemed to be generally moving in right direction.  She comes home, finds out about a lunch at IHOP and let loose.  My gut says she was looking for a reason.  That's as much big picture as I have.  

FF

[flourdust]

Is this worse/more frequent/more hair-trigger chaos than you were used to before the move? As I posted earlier, my wife's self-control degrades when stressed (not just situational stress like being stuck in traffic but the stress caused by changing life circumstances, like moves and job losses).

What I'm hearing of your situation sounds like added life stress has caused her flash point to drop, and she is now acting out in a lot of different ways in response to triggers that previously wouldn't have set her off.

And don't downplay the effects of stress on the kids and (obviously) yourself.

My first recommendation would be to try, TRY to view this as a temporary setback that isn't really avoidable. If you can manage to be flexible and calm and try to help the kids to establish a new routine, you might be able to get to a more stable family situation in a month or so. You seem to me like someone who has worked hard to find rules (spoken or unspoken) that work for you to keep your family life manageable. Many of those rules have gone out the window with the move. Some may come back, but some may have to be permanently replaced. Trying to reset to how your family functioned a few months ago might not be possible.

Good luck  -- and by all means, do pay attention to your health!

[sweetheart]

Thanks for expanding on the information ff.

What I can hear and what is conveyed sounds incredibly chaotic, there are so many factors and individuals converging all at odds with each other I'm not surprised your insides gave out on you.

I remember when we moved three years ago, there was only me, h and son then 4yrs. We moved to a 2 up 2 down house, moved from a very large apartment that we had lived in for 6yrs. I'm not good with change, I start to feel anxious trying to control the variables forsee problems by being proactive. Anyway nothing I did made any difference to the chaos that ensued on moving, it was what brought me here.

I thought I had factored everything in, but no amount of factoring helped my h cope with the changes.

What can you do that helps you most now today and over the short-term given that you are feeling very stressed?

When did you last feel like this and what helped you manage then, what do you need?

What I'm also aware of is when you go stay at a hotel, that then leaves your w on her own with all the children, in a new house, most probably increasing her stress and ability to then function or cope effectively. Thus increasing the potential for dysregulated behaviour the following day.

Children, even teenagers will need to feel reassured that there is at least one parent available to meet their needs and help them navigate all the new changes. When the chips are down they know you are the parent that will cope best. What are the alternatives to you leaving the house?

[Notwendy]

FF, I understand and it is difficult.

Growing up, we had natural routines, because by a certain age, we parented ourselves, but there were not nearly as many kids as in your house. Still, we went to bed, got up at regular times because we had school, and dad had work.

But when we came home from school in the afternoon, we had no idea what to expect, what kind of mood mom would be in, when, if there was any meals, what else would be happening.

After dad retired, it didn't seem like there was any sense of routine for my parents. There were no mealtimes- each just ate what they wanted when they wanted and not necessarily together. They went to bed when they wanted ( not a problem since we were grown and so they had a choice of where to sleep). My visits involved me planning meals, cooking, cleaning up, getting groceries, since I am used to a routine, and so is my family. Although this could be explained by my parents being elderly, I think it was always that way for them. I think it was when we kids and dad had routines that there was any sense of routine in the house.

Just get yourself rested and well. This is the first priority.

I do get what Sweetheart is saying. Once we were teens, if mom dysregulated, Dad left the house to cool off. In many ways, this was the right thing for him to do. He had to work the next day, and he didn't want to escalate the situation. Yet, this left us alone with her.

Although my situation is thankfully different from this, this is something that fueled my WOE. We used to argue at night and it upset the kids. WOE was not a good solution, but it was the only one I knew from my own FOO.

You may be the most stable of the parents, but as they say on airplanes, put your oxygen mask on first. You can only be as good to your kids as you are physically and mentally able to.

[Daniell85]

I am guessing she is decompressing from the strain of the move and as she starts to relax, a lot of general upset she has inside her is coming out.

From the other side, this is obviously it's putting a lot on you and undermining your capacity. She isn't the only one who has had a big move, or felt stress from it. All of you have. Her BPD has her "Queen" going issuing edicts and commands and being ugly when she meets some resistance.

I intensely dislike the deliberate undermining of you with the kids. It's a bit of a trigger for me. I have a 22 year old son, who due to the smearing of me by his father, won't even acknowledge my existence at this point. It is absolutely the most painful experience of my life and I literally don't know how to repair that core relationship.

All of this being said, your situation and your wife's behavior... .( and what is with putting a pool table in the TV/cinema room. Did you already have a pool table prior to this?) what it seems to come down to is what steps do you need to take in order to cope with all of the antics as everyone settles down ( hopefully!) and your wife keys down the war of attrition?

Because I think you have been immensely "good" in handling this life with your wife. And exhaustion absolutely leads to feelings of not being able to do much at all after a certain point.

As for her saying no TV in family room after 11PM, I guess she is fully aware of her actions and how they are effecting everyone. Sometimes people really are totally knowing what they are doing, how it is effecting others, just for whatever reason... ( any BPD reason) they are not able or in the mindset of acting appropriately. I have that problem sometimes and it aggravates me probably almost as much as I am aggravating other people ( like my mother, who I am having big challenges with right now)

Hope you get some very needed rest today. 

[formflier]

  My guess is the "crisis" is over.  There is a caring, light, easy to talk to wife at home this morning.  She asked if I came home in the middle of the night and I said yes.  She asked why and it sounded like genuine concern.  I told her about my spasms and that I worked them out in our tub.  Note:  One of the great features of this house is an awesome tub/hot tub thing.  It's been 3 houses since we had this.  We had good conversation.  Saw S20 off on his road trip to college and will be taking D18 to airport this afternoon again to fly back to college.  We have discussed and planned on, but not explicitly agreed to getting a craigslist desk today.  She said that she would like to get that on the way to airport and if that was ok.  I agreed.  So,

FF

[Daniell85]

  glad it is calmer

[Notwendy]

I'm glad it is calmer for you now. However you know this is a pattern and is likely to repeat when she feels upset.

First get some rest, but I think it is tempting to forget these episodes when things are calm. In fact, I think that's what the person with BPD prefers - to erase what happened. It may even be impossible and not likely to go well to bring them up.

During this time you may wish to consider a possible solution to getting the sleep you need. Your family may never have a set bedtime and people will make noise all night if they want. How can you establish a way to sleep when you need to? It might mean adding on a sound proof locked room somewhere if that's what it takes.

[Grey Kitty]

Sorry to hear how things went ... .And glad it's mostly blown over.

First thought. There is one and only one bedtime you control and that is yours.

I'm not a parent and I've got no idea how to coparent with somebody so inconsistent. Especially because kids do figure out how to play one parent against the other. So setting and holding kids bedtimes may not be something you can solve.

[MaroonLiquid]

Glad to hear things are calmer FF.

[waverider]

Just a though on nons being sick triggering pwBPD.

When you are feeling sick, or off, you cant give best attention to pwBPD, this then can trigger abandonment (attention competition) reactions. The result can be over attention (to win you back) or turning on you (abandoning you first to regain control). It can show in passive agressive acts and going back on promises (you dont deserve them any more).

Either way things rarely carry on as normal. Throw in a move and there is latent instabilty waiting to be triggered. There is to much affecting the status quo