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Author Topic: How to word this to avoid drama and still get what we need.  (Read 472 times)
Nope
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« on: January 17, 2016, 12:32:46 PM »

DH and I decided that the kids should see their elderly great grandmother on uBPDm's side of the family. To do this means we will be traveling to the kid's uBPDm's state. We decided that if we'll be taking a trip up there then it would be best to offer uBPDm an overnight with the kids since according to the order the next time she is guaranteed any parenting time is next Christmas. (She only gets summer time by agreement between the parties and she got no summer time last year.)

So, DH snet her the following email:

[uBPDex]

I will be traveling in the [local city] area during President's Day weekend. If you would like to have the children for an overnight I would meet you on Saturday 2/13 at the [easy distance for her to travel exchange spot] at 7pm. I would need to have the kids back at the same location at 8am on Monday 2/15 for the return trip. If this is agreeable to you please let me know by Friday 1/22/16. If I do not hear from you by then I will understand that this visit will not work with your schedule and I will make alternate plans.

Sincerely,

[My DH]

During the next phone call uBPDm had with the kids she and the kids spoke excitedly about the visit. She told the kids all about how she misses them and can't wait to see them, etc. Unfortunately, what she hasn't done is email back or in any way communicate her acceptance of these terms to DH. I don't think she is going to. I think on 1/22 we'll need to send her an email saying we haven't heard from her but have heard from the kids that she is planning on seeing them and could she just state that she agrees to these terms. But I want to ask for that in the least triggering way possible. If she was anyone else I wouldn't be worried about not getting a response back in writing. But she has a habit of getting the kids, doing whatever she wants, and then telling us she "never agreed to that" when we try to hold her accountable if we didn't have something in writing. Thoughts?
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kells76
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2016, 05:55:36 PM »

Hey Nope;

Some brainstorm ideas --

1. What about sending her a "just checking in" email around 1/19 or so -- that way you don't have to wait until the deadline. Maybe it could say something like "Just checking in to see if you know yet if the weekend with the kids works for you." Sort of like you haven't heard anything about it from the kids.

2. Are the kids old enough where you could explain a little about the conditions for the weekend? Just the basics of "Mom did great talking to you about it (or whatever, something positive I guess)  and the thing we all agreed to is she needs to email Dad before it happens, just so you know."

3. Can you word the follow up email in such a way that a non-response is equal to her agreeing to the conditions you want? That way you don't have to ask her for a response, when you email her on the 22nd, so she doesn't get to break the deadline. Maybe it could say "Haven't heard from you yet, but it sounds like the weekend with you is important to the kids. If I don't hear differently from you by Day, I'll assume all the logistic details work for you, and I'll have the kids at X place at X time and then I will pick them up at Y place at Y time." Seems like the worst that would happen there is that Dad has the kids ready at X place at X time and Mom doesn't show up.

It sort of sounds to me like Dad really thinks he should make this happen -- is that true?
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Nope
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 10:18:14 AM »

Hey Nope;

Some brainstorm ideas --

1. What about sending her a "just checking in" email around 1/19 or so -- that way you don't have to wait until the deadline. Maybe it could say something like "Just checking in to see if you know yet if the weekend with the kids works for you." Sort of like you haven't heard anything about it from the kids.

2. Are the kids old enough where you could explain a little about the conditions for the weekend? Just the basics of "Mom did great talking to you about it (or whatever, something positive I guess)  and the thing we all agreed to is she needs to email Dad before it happens, just so you know."

3. Can you word the follow up email in such a way that a non-response is equal to her agreeing to the conditions you want? That way you don't have to ask her for a response, when you email her on the 22nd, so she doesn't get to break the deadline. Maybe it could say "Haven't heard from you yet, but it sounds like the weekend with you is important to the kids. If I don't hear differently from you by Day, I'll assume all the logistic details work for you, and I'll have the kids at X place at X time and then I will pick them up at Y place at Y time." Seems like the worst that would happen there is that Dad has the kids ready at X place at X time and Mom doesn't show up.

It sort of sounds to me like Dad really thinks he should make this happen -- is that true?

Thanks for these thoughts. I'm thinking #3 is what we'll do. I think she'd take #1 poorly as if we were trying to push her and she'd probably get paranoid that we were trying to somehow get one over on her. We tried #2 last summer when she didn't request any summer parenting time with the kids and it devolved into the kids begging her over and over to email DH so they could see her and her telling them she would send an email and then never doing it. Then when the summer was over the SS11 asked her why she had never send his dad an email and she responded with, "Oh, I didn't know I was supposed to." So I think just putting it out there like it's a done deal unless she says otherwise is our best bet.

Actually, DH is grumpy about doing the trip at all. We have so little time off from work and I am scraping together the money for the trip myself. Plus DH and I don't get a lot of time together so if we were going to take a trip for Valentine's Day weekend he would have preferred somewhere better than the state his ex wife is in. It's more that both DH and I recognize that this is the right thing to do for the kids. We feel, and the magistrate actually stated in the court finding, that the kids should continue to have a relationship with uBPDm's family. (She is estranged from them so the court found we were more likely to facilitate a relationship.) But going all of the way up there and then not at least giving their mom a chance to see them would have been seen by all involved as DH intentionally keeping the kids from their mom.

We've already seen some positive improvement in both kids since we told them about the trip. SD12 seems to feel more like she can now speak negatively about her mom without having to worry about DH and I using what she says as a reason for why she can't see her, which is allowing her to more openly deal with some of the issues around her mom's behaviors. SS11 is the scapegoat child and before DH got custody he was convinced that everything would have been all better between him and his mother had he been allowed to stay with her. Now she won't come and visit him in our state so he's trapped in a world of FOG. Until we announced this trip he didn't think he'd see his mom again until next Christmas. Now it's in his head that he may see her at times before that and that's easing his anxiety.
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bravhart1
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 10:48:54 AM »

i dont know Nope, i kind of think that you should stick to a boundry of having uBPDm respond.

I mean you are making a very generous offer to bring her her own children and the very least she could do is send a short free email back.

I think I would send an email saying, I know you spoke to the children about having a visit and if you intend to have that visit, then please resond to the email as we have asked. We do not want any miscommunication. ( Like if you leave the confirmation as you heard back through the children and then uBPDm keeps them until 3pm on Monday, she can say later that she told the kids it was 3pm or no dice, even if she didn't and still make a drama)

Best of luck on your trip, enjoy some non kid time and pamper yourselves!
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 11:08:02 AM »

#3 is probably the most likely to work out, especially if the goal is to give the kids something that helps them (a short unexpected visit with mom).

I might add a sentence that says, "If this works out, maybe we can do this again."

If she is prone to dysregulations and/or sees you as the punitive parent, it's anyone's guess if she will be able to handle the schedule. If she's a little more high-functioning, then she may be able to keep things in perspective for the short period of time she has them.
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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 12:00:57 PM »

i dont know Nope, i kind of think that you should stick to a boundry of having uBPDm respond.

I mean you are making a very generous offer to bring her her own children and the very least she could do is send a short free email back.

I think I would send an email saying, I know you spoke to the children about having a visit and if you intend to have that visit, then please respond to the email as we have asked. We do not want any miscommunication. ( Like if you leave the confirmation as you heard back through the children and then uBPDm keeps them until 3pm on Monday, she can say later that she told the kids it was 3pm or no dice, even if she didn't and still make a drama)

Best of luck on your trip, enjoy some non kid time and pamper yourselves!

I'm not too worried about her telling us she told the kids "3pm or no dice" or anything like that. First off, her only opportunity to say that would either be recorded or over text or email in which case she is admitting to using the kids to send messages about parenting schedules, which is actually forbidden in the parenting plan/order. Secondly, if she screws this up she effectively gives us ample reason never to do something like this again. The kids will know she screwed this up and any magistrate we go in front of will know she screwed this up. Our goal for today is to see if we can keep the triggering to a minimum so the kids can see their mom.

#3 is probably the most likely to work out, especially if the goal is to give the kids something that helps them (a short unexpected visit with mom).

I might add a sentence that says, "If this works out, maybe we can do this again."

If she is prone to dysregulations and/or sees you as the punitive parent, it's anyone's guess if she will be able to handle the schedule. If she's a little more high-functioning, then she may be able to keep things in perspective for the short period of time she has them.

I do get the sense that she isn't responding because she doesn't want to be locked in to good behavior. Her doing what she is supposed to do feels like DH "winning" to her. She seems literally paralyzed by her need to not feel like DH is the one in control. I'd classify her as low functioning because she has lost some jobs because of her acting out behaviors and has had drama at other jobs before leaving them on her own. If one person in her life upsets her then everything spirals out of control with anyone who is near her at that time. She absolutely can't compartmentalize. This means anything can happen between now and then.

The "punitive parent" thing is exactly why we won't say "If this works out... ." We don't want to add our decision not to bring them to her anxiety in her interactions with DH. She rages at DH in the few emails she does send him. We don't want her to think "He won't bring them again because I made him mad." Heck, she may not be responding because part of her knows she can't send an email without taking a shot at him and she that badly doesn't want to screw this up.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2016, 12:28:12 PM »

Even without the BPD, it would be hard to lose custody and then have the winning parent say, "Here's the deal, you do this... ." So I get that part.

I also think it's important to not let these scenarios rent too much space in our heads, although easier said than done  Smiling (click to insert in post)

If you think she will react poorly no matter what, what about focusing more on damage control re: the kids. " We're hoping mom can confirm the pick-up drop-off schedule, then the visit is set." So at least they know to manage their expectations.

And then a breezy follow-up email closer to the date. "Hey, just checking to see if these times work. Let us know."
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2016, 10:13:12 AM »

Every one is different but what works for me: I send another email attached to the first asking my ex to respond by such and such a date. If she does not respond I assume she is saying no. My ex almost always responds to the email in the time frame I set up. If she does not respond she sends an email a few days after the time explaining her reason why she is saying no.

I used to add that I will say nothing to our kids until I hear from her. That keeps the kids out of it. I don't do that anymore since I have established a boundary from past emails.
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2016, 10:50:26 AM »

She responded! One line saying the arrangement was agreeable to her.

Not to look a gift horse in the mouth: but we found out yesterday from SS11's T that she finally called her. Apparently, BPDm wanted to push her agenda of "SS11 is depressed because he wants to live with me." The T tried very hard to explain to her that SS11 doesn't want to move away from his dad but just wants to see her more often. BPDm, with her all-or-nothing thinking, was having none of it. Since the majority of BPDm's parenting time is supposed to take place in our state (and BPDm hasn't come here once) the T tried to gently push BPDm about coming for visits, which BPDm shut down as impossible due to distance and her work schedule. The T knows the story but kept trying to find ways to get BPDm to make an effort she simply won't make.

So, in short, I think BPDm thinks we are bringing the kids to see her because we heard about the conversation with the T and she is somehow right or justified. 

As long as the people residing here in reality can see we do the right thing even when she won't because it's best for the kids then that's all that matters.
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bravhart1
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2016, 12:04:27 PM »

I think I would make sure that SS11 has an appointment with T before visit with mom to make sure he knows not to get down the path of "you want to come live with me right?" with mom.

I see the potential for her to very easily use this visit to engage in her pressure tactics to make him say what she wants to hear and make a mess of things.

Hope she doesn't but its got some potential.
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 12:27:29 PM »

Also, if S11 does get "ambushed" by his mom and you see the aftermath when you pick him up you may want to reconsider how much time should be spent with his BPDm or what approach to take for the next time.

I think the big thing from the last post is that BPDm has to make the effort. My ex makes very little effort with anything to do with our two boys. She sends lots of emails telling me things but never acts on any of it.

Our summer schedule is week on/week off. Ex has been on time once in three years on her pick up time. She is usually around 40 minutes late but has been over three hours late. The time she was three hours late she called around a half hour before arriving saying she was running late ?
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2016, 12:37:57 PM »

I think I would make sure that SS11 has an appointment with T before visit with mom to make sure he knows not to get down the path of "you want to come live with me right?" with mom.

I see the potential for her to very easily use this visit to engage in her pressure tactics to make him say what she wants to hear and make a mess of things.

Hope she doesn't but its got some potential.

Oh, she already does it all the time over the phone. His counselor has worked with him around it so that he understands that his actual desire is simply to see her more often. But neither kid is going to put themselves in the line of fire by telling her something she doesn't want to hear. So they both always tell her that they want to live with her when she asks.

If she wants to take DH to court over her assertion about where the kids want to live she's free to come down here and do so. But since she won't even come and visit I don't see it happening. Even if the kids get old enough to vote with their feet she'll still need a court order to keep them during the school year. The most important thing is that the kids realize they like feeling completely helpless when it comes to the custody arrangement because that keeps them out of the middle. They just give her what she wants so she will be a loving mother towards them and then they trust us that where they live is an adult problem.
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