sharing my experience of last night

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I was at work last night. My cell rang and it was ex's house phone. Ex has never called me from that phone before. Our boys use it to call me so I answered it expecting to hear from S17. It was ex.

She went off saying that I need to pick S17 up because he is tearing her house apart. I said nothing and just listened. I couldn't have said anything anyway because she was in her rage mode. I haven't heard her voice in years because I only communicate through email. This is the first time in at least five years. If she was an elf she would be a south pole elf.

Apparently S17 missed the school bus this morning and his mom had to drive him. As punishment she took the mouse and keyboard from his computer. When he got home she started on him about missing the bus and what her punishment was. He needs a computer to do his homework and he told her that. She wanted me to pick him up because he was "tearing" her house apart. If I didn't pick him up she was going to call the police and have him removed. I heard no noises in the background and continued listening.

Finally, she ran out of wind. I asked to speak to S17. He sounded calm and composed. I asked what was going on and he said his mom took his mouse and keyboard for missing the bus. I asked if he was acting out in any way. He said he went to his room and decided to clean his room to get away from her. I asked if he was banging things or making noise. He said no.

At this point I had to decide who I was going to believe more. Considering that I have witnessed S17 frustrated and acting like a typical teen and he was calm now I figured this was mostly ex's issue. I suggested seeing if his mom would let him use his brothers computer to do his homework. I further pointed out that his school had a college night later and that maybe he should find a way to go. I suggested he talk to his mom about that. I said if his mom doesn't calm down that he can go to a neighbors and call me and I will pick him up.

The last time ex did something similar was in 2010 and I wound up in jail. It was deja vu and I didn't want to go there again. I did have a plan if I had to pick him up but I didn't want to feed into the nonsense. I felt that S17 was calm and could handle himself properly. I was more concerned that if I picked him up our S12 was on his own. That was my bigger concern.

S17 seemed okay so we got off the phone. I emailed ex to let her know what I suggested to S17. I pointed out that if he did his homework on his brothers computer it would not interfere with her discipline. I also told her about the college night and maybe that would be a good place for S17 to go.

I received an email 15 minutes later saying that I am undermining her authority as a mother. She also said that unless S17 calms down she will be calling the police to have him taken away. She went on projecting a lot of stuff and blaming me for it all. Of course, I saved it because she contradicted herself so much and the projection was classic. She also said she thinks S17 needs counseling to deal with his anger. Again, projection. S17's strategy has been for quite some time to stay away from her and avoid interaction. When she yells at him he rarely replies at all. He talks to me about what goes on there and S12 has confirmed things he has told me so I tend to believe what both boys are saying. I pick them up at school and we have a half hour ride when these conversations usually occur. I have become a very good listener.

I replied to ex by asking if she wants S17 to live with me full time. I also replied to the one question she had in her email which was about S17 and counseling. I simply stated that if she decided to go in that direction our court order states that both parents must be included.

I haven't had a reply.

Fortunately, I pick the boys up after school today and they are with me this weekend so she has time to calm back down.

[david]

I was at work last night. My cell rang and it was ex's house phone. Ex has never called me from that phone before. Our boys use it to call me so I answered it expecting to hear from S17. It was ex.

She went off saying that I need to pick S17 up because he is tearing her house apart. I said nothing and just listened. I couldn't have said anything anyway because she was in her rage mode. I haven't heard her voice in years because I only communicate through email. This is the first time in at least five years. If she was an elf she would be a south pole elf.

Apparently S17 missed the school bus this morning and his mom had to drive him. As punishment she took the mouse and keyboard from his computer. When he got home she started on him about missing the bus and what her punishment was. He needs a computer to do his homework and he told her that. She wanted me to pick him up because he was "tearing" her house apart. If I didn't pick him up she was going to call the police and have him removed. I heard no noises in the background and continued listening.

Finally, she ran out of wind. I asked to speak to S17. He sounded calm and composed. I asked what was going on and he said his mom took his mouse and keyboard for missing the bus. I asked if he was acting out in any way. He said he went to his room and decided to clean his room to get away from her. I asked if he was banging things or making noise. He said no.

At this point I had to decide who I was going to believe more. Considering that I have witnessed S17 frustrated and acting like a typical teen and he was calm now I figured this was mostly ex's issue. I suggested seeing if his mom would let him use his brothers computer to do his homework. I further pointed out that his school had a college night later and that maybe he should find a way to go. I suggested he talk to his mom about that. I said if his mom doesn't calm down that he can go to a neighbors and call me and I will pick him up.

The last time ex did something similar was in 2010 and I wound up in jail. It was deja vu and I didn't want to go there again. I did have a plan if I had to pick him up but I didn't want to feed into the nonsense. I felt that S17 was calm and could handle himself properly. I was more concerned that if I picked him up our S12 was on his own. That was my bigger concern.

S17 seemed okay so we got off the phone. I emailed ex to let her know what I suggested to S17. I pointed out that if he did his homework on his brothers computer it would not interfere with her discipline. I also told her about the college night and maybe that would be a good place for S17 to go.

I received an email 15 minutes later saying that I am undermining her authority as a mother. She also said that unless S17 calms down she will be calling the police to have him taken away. She went on projecting a lot of stuff and blaming me for it all. Of course, I saved it because she contradicted herself so much and the projection was classic. She also said she thinks S17 needs counseling to deal with his anger. Again, projection. S17's strategy has been for quite some time to stay away from her and avoid interaction. When she yells at him he rarely replies at all. He talks to me about what goes on there and S12 has confirmed things he has told me so I tend to believe what both boys are saying. I pick them up at school and we have a half hour ride when these conversations usually occur. I have become a very good listener.

I replied to ex by asking if she wants S17 to live with me full time. I also replied to the one question she had in her email which was about S17 and counseling. I simply stated that if she decided to go in that direction our court order states that both parents must be included.

I haven't had a reply.

Fortunately, I pick the boys up after school today and they are with me this weekend so she has time to calm back down.

[SES]

 I hope things remain calm. I think you sense of deja vu is a very powerful reminder to be cautious.  I hope you are ok?

[Turkish]

As he's almost an adult, he may indeed be at risk for something like you went through. What are the plans on his 18th birthday? Have you counseled him on the realities of what could happen in a DV situation?

I remember when I grabbed my mom's wrist when she went to smack me (I was fed up with being smacked around). She went to smack me with the other hand, and I grabbed it as well and held her away from me. Then she tried to kick me, and I blocked, kind of, with my leg. I let her go and ran out the door. She threw a heavy combo utility flashlight at me, and I dodged it. The light broke which enraged her more.

Looking back now, I would have been the one likely to go to jail if the cops were called given the way it's typically handled now. I was 15.

[david]

When I talked to him on the phone he sounded calm and collected. I did say that if he thought things were going to escalate that he should leave the house and call me. I told him to not react to anything that mom says. He is mature enough that I didn't think things would escalate because of him. In the past he has told me many things where he bites his lips instead of speaking. He has discovered that saying anything usually raises the noise level from his mom.

I picked the boys up at school yesterday. S12 indicated that mom was really mad and he avoided her. I just listened. I really had nothing to add. He didn't see any connection with her anger and S17. The way he described it is that sometimes mom gets mad for no reason at all.

[ForeverDad]

Soon S17 will age out of the custody and parenting order, right?  Is there any strategy to see how things can be adjusted before that happens so her impact on S12 is lessened?  We don't encourage the children to be split apart, but if only one is covered by the order then it will probably happen anyway to some extent.

Five years without his brother there as support and deflector would be pretty hard for him I would imagine.  However, once S17 is an adult, maybe he could provide testimony that would support S12 being with you more or at least being able to leave during the times she was ranting and raging?

[david]

S17 could have moved in with me a while ago according to my attorney. Ex would have to take me to court and chances are she would not have "won". The real issue for me now is S12. He has learned to disappear at his mom's but I don't think he could do it all alone. I don't like the idea of him being on his own there.

I believe that the only reason ex wants the kids is so she won't have to pay child support. She doesn't have any real interactions with them presently. She treats all her kids the same way and that is as if they are infants or toddlers. Looking back I am able to see that now. Once they began to think for themselves was when she had difficulty.

I emailed ex asking if she wanted S17 to live with me. She did not reply so I sent the same email asking again today.

We currently have 50/50 but it is a temporary order. That was over two years ago. A temp order eliminates child support at 50/50 in our state. At least that is what my attorney indicated. Going back to court to get it as a permanent order is just more time and money that I don't care to spend. The time or the money. I have been very successful at helping both boys with their school work since getting 50/50 and that was my focus for getting more time.

I'm still trying to figure out the best approach when S17 turns 18.

[ForeverDad]

I said if his mom doesn't calm down that he can go to a neighbors and call me and I will pick him up.

This may be one promising strategy for S12 if his brother is not there.  Would he do it?  If it ends up in court how would you present it so he doesn't have the 'freedom' to later side with mother and enable her?  Another solution to eventually submit?  "If a parent is ranting and raging then the child can call (or go to a neighbor's house and call) the other parent asking to stay there until the next scheduled visit with the misbehaving parent."

[david]

S12 has recently started to challenge his mom's perceptions of things. This is fairly new. I'd say about two months now. It has only been a few incidents at least by what he is saying to me. Of course, ex gets "angry" with him when he does this. However, he is not stopping but picking his battles with her. I mostly listen when he talks to me about these incidents. He has asked me why mom is the only one he knows that gets real angry whenever you show her she is not telling the truth. I simply said that was part of the way she is and that everybody has different ways of doing things. I'm taking a cautious approach with this since it is so new for him. I take it as a normal part of his development.

[david]

So we got a lot of snow the other day and the boys were with me. We shoveled snow most of the day. The next day, after breakfast, we went out to finish up. S12 tired out quickly and went inside.

Apparently, ex tried contacting me but my phone was inside the house. Hours later S17 and I went back in the house. S12 was negotiating going to his moms house to shovel there. She made the initial contact with him through his Ipad. She offered to pay him and his brother to get me to drive them to her place and leave them there for some time until they cleared her place. S12 negotiated a price and ex agreed. It took close to two hours for this to be finalized.

He showed me some of the communication and verbally filled in details. I just listened. He basically said he didn't trust his mom and she would probably not pay him so he wanted to be paid upfront. This went on while I was outside. She refused to agree to pay him upfront but she agreed to pay him x amount of dollars. I had to take them out clothes shopping so I told them I would drop them off after that.

S12 called his mom to tell her what the plan was. I couldn't help but hear his side of the call and it sounded like she was trying to back out of giving them any money. He insisted he wanted to be paid upfront. She must have said something like, "don't you trust me" and he replied that she lies to him all the time and she is the only person he knows that does that. He was very calm as he spoke and I couldn't believe what I was hearing. He got off the phone and said he still wanted to go even though he didn't think she was going to keep her agreement. He wanted to give her a chance since he called her a liar.

I dropped them off after we went shopping. Three hours later S12 called to say they were finished. They did a good job of clearing the driveway and the entrance area. And yes she did not pay them. S12 said he was going to give her until this coming weekend since she said she had no money. After that he said he would never trust her again. Heck of a lesson for a 12 year old to learn. He wasn't too upset but did talk to me about it and wanted to know why his mom lies so much. I told him that was a good question and I really have no good answer for his question.

[Turkish]

If he were an adult, i'd say he engaged in unhealthy triangulation, since an adult would know she wouldn't pay. . But he had to know, right, to test her? 

Sounds like he handled it calmly. I've seen it said that one of the most damaging things a parent can do is to lie to their children.

How to handle it in the future? Shoveling snow was an honorable thing to do for a parent. Tying payment to it complicated things, demonstrating her character traits. Maybe a boundary in the future, assuming he wants to do it again, would be to suggest just doing something nice for mom with the deed being its own reward. If she offers to pay, reject the offer. Tough stuff, poor guy.

[david]

Turkish, that is why I let it play out between him and his mom.

We went out yesterday and made a snowman. Afterwards we went for a walk and he brought it up. He did most of the talking but I did bring up the fact that he helped me without expecting to be payed. He explained that he would have helped his mom anyway, which he did, but that she was the one that brought up paying him so he wanted to see if she would. He then talked about how his older brothers, her boys from her first marriage, don't talk to mom anymore. He said he understands why they don't talk to her because she lies so much. He then went on about some of the kids in school and how they have no friends because they act like that too. He talked at length and I listened.

He doesn't expect to get any money and that seemed fine with him.

That is a big difference between S17 and S12. S17 is already in the LC mode of dealing with his mom.

I feel bad for both of them and I also feel bad for the older boys.

One of my SS's got married last May. His brother was the best man and gave a toast. In it, he said that he was glad that his brother found such a nice girl and how her family is the family that he deserved. He worded it much better. I was stunned how open he was about it especially since his mom was there. SS had been dating her for about 3 years and I have been invited to many of her families functions without ex being invited. Apparently, they invited her to a few things and her actions pushed her away from them. They no longer interact with her at all.

[ForeverDad]

How to handle it in the future? Shoveling snow was an honorable thing to do for a parent. Tying payment to it complicated things, demonstrating her character traits. Maybe a boundary in the future, assuming he wants to do it again, would be to suggest just doing something nice for mom with the deed being its own reward. If she offers to pay, reject the offer. Tough stuff, poor guy.

I've heard a guy, I'll call him Dave R, who is often talking about money matters on the radio.  He knows mixing family and money/loans/etc can become a bigger issue than we realize.  For family loans, he says No, not if there is the least bit of risk that (1) the borrower will not repay or (2) the lender will hound, emotionally obligate or try to control the borrower for the next 30 years even though repaid in full.

I believe S12 felt he should give his mother 'one more chance' to do the right thing.  I think that's okay to try again.  However, there has to be a healthy limit, he shouldn't give her a lifetime of 'one more' chances.

My grandfather remarried way back a few years before I was born.  She was the only grandma I clearly remembered.  When I was an adult and doing volunteer work — for over 20 years as it turned out — I would come home to visit family 2 or 3 times a year.  I never had more than a couple hundred dollars to my name back then.  I recall one time I drove him home and was walking him to his door and he gave me $5 saying, ":)on't tell your grandmother."  Years later I asked my mother about that incident and she said, "Gma saw her money as her money (she had lots) but Gpa's money as their money."  He didn't want her to know that he gave a little gift to his grandson.  Yet she put on such a great public face.  I've wondered since whether she had PDs since that form of splitting has come up often around here.  All those years and all he ever gave me was $5 due to a tight-fisted stepGma.  While I don't care about the money itself, it's so sad that she made it about the money and now it is emblazoned as a memory.

Your boys will have to learn that it's about her distorted perception of 'her' money.