BPD or face value?

[whitebackatcha]

My exBPD came back into my life a month ago, after a break of several months. Things have been going shockingly well. Communication has been great. When she's gotten upset, I've handled it really well, and we've moved on. This is a long distance relationship.

Today, she tells me she can't ever commit to a closed relationship because she can't make promises about what she will do in the future, and being open is just who she is and always will be. I had told her this was my one firm boundary. She has no current prospects, and with her schedule, she will be able to visit me before she has time to try and find other options. She started out saying she was too difficult and couldn't meet my needs, but then this was her main point. She said if it weren't long distance, it might be different, but that isn't an option.

Should I take this at face value, or is any part of this the BPD? She hates being told what to do, and hates making promises because she's scared she will disappoint the person.

I feel like, based on her openness with me, that she wouldn't actually do this, but just doesn't want to have to COMMIT to that. If I go on that hunch though, I'm taking a huge risk in getting hurt.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[unicorn2014]

How about a third option, its temperament?

[whitebackatcha]

How about a third option, its temperament?

Can you elaborate on this?

[Notwendy]

I think the choice to take this at face value is up to you. One of the traps of a relationship like this is for us to try to become "mind readers" but we really can not know what someone is thinking. She may feel this way now, and not later, or this could be how she truly feels.

For me, taking someone at their word is a boundary. I prefer to be responsible for what I say, and let others be responsible for what they say. This doesn't mean I believe them ( if I have reason not to) or don't notice if they are disregulating. But in general, if someone were to say to me in a calm manner that they are not ready to commit to a relationship, then the decision to accept it on those terms or not, is up to me. Then, I am responsible for my feelings about what happens.

IMHO, the ball is in your court. She says she is not willing to commit to a closed relationship. You are wondering what she means. There is no way for you to be certain about her meaning or feelings. The only decision you have is to be in the relationship without this commitment, or decide that fidelity is a boundary for you and that you can not be in a relationship with those terms.

[babyducks]

Today, she tells me she can't ever commit to a closed relationship because she can't make promises about what she will do in the future, and being open is just who she is and always will be. I had told her this was my one firm boundary.

I'm not sure I understand all the nuances here.  You're boundary is your boundary and reflects your core value correct?   She being faced with a boundary not to her liking is going to test it? 

Are you thinking of changing or moving your boundary?   If so why?

Can you split the difference and say 'here is how I see it for right now today and I am willing to do X if you will agree to tell me if Y happens'.   Or something to that effect that makes you feel more comfortable?

[waverider]

Can you split the difference and say 'here is how I see it for right now today and I am willing to do X if you will agree to tell me if Y happens'.   Or something to that effect that makes you feel more comfortable?

This takes it away from the realm of boundaries as you are asking/expecting her to do/comply with something. If I believe, or feel, Y is happening is a boundary, having her agree to tell you is not. That is a request, which may or may not be complied with.

[waverider]

What she is saying is there is uncertainty, it doesn't matter the reasons she may give. Your options now are can you proceed with uncertainty? How does this make you feel? Try not to cloud this basic point with justifications.

[unicorn2014]

How about a third option, its temperament?

Can you elaborate on this?

Some temperaments, like the P in the Meyers Briggs type, like to keep things open ended, so it may not be a disorder thing.

[whitebackatcha]

I think the choice to take this at face value is up to you. One of the traps of a relationship like this is for us to try to become "mind readers" but we really can not know what someone is thinking. She may feel this way now, and not later, or this could be how she truly feels.

For me, taking someone at their word is a boundary. I prefer to be responsible for what I say, and let others be responsible for what they say. This doesn't mean I believe them ( if I have reason not to) or don't notice if they are disregulating. But in general, if someone were to say to me in a calm manner that they are not ready to commit to a relationship, then the decision to accept it on those terms or not, is up to me. Then, I am responsible for my feelings about what happens.

IMHO, the ball is in your court. She says she is not willing to commit to a closed relationship. You are wondering what she means. There is no way for you to be certain about her meaning or feelings. The only decision you have is to be in the relationship without this commitment, or decide that fidelity is a boundary for you and that you can not be in a relationship with those terms.

This all makes sense. I ended up doing a version of this, while still taking into account my sense that everything wasn't clear. I told her that if this was what she wanted, then we could remain friends, and I respected her choice. We kept talking, and long story short, she is concerned about making promises that she theoretically might not be able to keep. She is like this with everything. I gave very specific examples, as she deals best in concretes, and received clear answers. But ultimately, when things were confusing still, and also while she was saying simply that she wanted to be open, I realized I needed to just accept that, and told her that is what I would do.

[whitebackatcha]

Can you split the difference and say 'here is how I see it for right now today and I am willing to do X if you will agree to tell me if Y happens'.   Or something to that effect that makes you feel more comfortable?

This takes it away from the realm of boundaries as you are asking/expecting her to do/comply with something. If I believe, or feel, Y is happening is a boundary, having her agree to tell you is not. That is a request, which may or may not be complied with.

How would this work with any behavior that can't necessarily be observed without excessive monitoring, or possibly not even then?

[whitebackatcha]

I'm not sure I understand all the nuances here.  You're boundary is your boundary and reflects your core value correct?   She being faced with a boundary not to her liking is going to test it?  

Are you thinking of changing or moving your boundary?   If so why?

Can you split the difference and say 'here is how I see it for right now today and I am willing to do X if you will agree to tell me if Y happens'.   Or something to that effect that makes you feel more comfortable?

This is actually what I ended up doing. Based on her actions in the past, I do believe her to be an honest person. It is reasonable for me to assume she would be upfront. She says she feels comfortable telling me before she acts, if she ever did. When fleshed out, she said she didn't anticipate it, couldn't technically see it happening in the first place. When I clarified that I certainly didn't expect a lifetime commitment, just to be told if she was going in a different direction so I could make my own choices, it was like a light bulb came on, and we were suddenly on the same page.

I should add that one of my boundaries that I made clear when we first started talking again was that I wasn't willing to have a relationship with someone who wasn't comfortable with me asking about things if I felt uncomfortable. This was an enormous issue the first time around, and I learned my lesson in not going along with that dynamic. She has been incredibly consistent in honoring this thus far. This would have been another deal breaker for me.

[waverider]

Can you split the difference and say 'here is how I see it for right now today and I am willing to do X if you will agree to tell me if Y happens'.   Or something to that effect that makes you feel more comfortable?

This takes it away from the realm of boundaries as you are asking/expecting her to do/comply with something. If I believe, or feel, Y is happening is a boundary, having her agree to tell you is not. That is a request, which may or may not be complied with.

How would this work with any behavior that can't necessarily be observed without excessive monitoring, or possibly not even then?

It is about how you feel, your perceptions, as that is what is causing the damage. It is not a court of law about proof, right or wrong or even fairness. That is what they will try to distract you with playing defense lawyer tactics, and they are not amateurs at it. In short you do not want to live a life of suspicion and mistrust. It is not about you proving your suspicions. The only truth is that you will never know absolute truths. Only part truths and perceptions.

[Notwendy]

Although hearing statements like this is distressing, I actually think they are good, and wish people would be more open about their values. I've felt we pair up backwards in our modern culture- there is attraction, being attached first, and then someone reveals their issues/values. While I don't think many of us would want to return to arranged pairing of older days- where a couple was matched by common culture/religion/values, it seems that this could avoid at least some surprises.

Being in a committed relationship or not is a personal value. I wouldn't make it right or wrong, but something people choose either way. For me, I want a committed, closed relationship, so if I met someone I was attracted to, and that person said they couldn't commit to one, then it would be my decision to stay in this relationship and deal with the possible consequences or decide I could not do it. Trying to second guess the person- will they see someone else, will they not, are they, aren't they is not my domain. They have spoken their truth and their choices are theirs.

If I say to them " I can't do this, if you are with me, then you can not see someone else" then that person also has a choice- stay and be committed, or not.

There is always a bit of uncertainty in any relationship. Someone could break a commitment. But if we know up front that there is a mismatch of values, and we proceed anyway, then we are responsible for the choice we make. I think we have all heard of people thinking " once we are married he/she will change" but really, we have accept our partners at the moment as they are.

There is a great Madaea scene where "she" is talking to a recently divorced man about his apparently not so nice ex wife. She says " when people show you who they are- believe them" The comical part about this is for a second, she breaks character and is Tyler Perry. Madaea is showing us who she really is. It's a great example of how even though we know Madaea is Tyler Perry, we suspend that and see Madaea.

Using this analogy, while it appears at the moment that your relationship is committed, your gf has revealed her own fears of not being able to keep that commitment. This doesn't mean she won't keep it. It's how she feels and what she fears. She's revealed a part of her- that she isn't sure she can commit. I wouldn't be surprised if many people have felt that way when in a relationship that they aren't sure about. But what you do with this information is your choice.

[Lou12]

I understand where you are coming from with this one whitebackatcha. I recently put across to my BPDbf that whilst I can handle him thinking and feeling like he can't give me certain commitments at times, acting on them is a whole other ball game.

I know once I pin my bf down to an ultimatum then he will panic (which I always thought to be part of having BPD) so certain things I know he comes out and says are just words and not actions.

On this note I have to primarily judge our relationship on actions that show me he wouldn't carry out some of the things he may say he wants if that makes sense.

I suppose only you can decide if he is likely to carry out these actions (cheating) from saying 'I can't be in a closed relationship'.

My bf feels very unsafe being backed into a corner, the fear of letting you/him down is to scary for him.

[whitebackatcha]

My bf feels very unsafe being backed into a corner, the fear of letting you/him down is to scary for him.

This is a huge issue for my exgf as well.

[whitebackatcha]

Although hearing statements like this is distressing, I actually think they are good, and wish people would be more open about their values. I've felt we pair up backwards in our modern culture- there is attraction, being attached first, and then someone reveals their issues/values. While I don't think many of us would want to return to arranged pairing of older days- where a couple was matched by common culture/religion/values, it seems that this could avoid at least some surprises.

I totally agree. My entire situation is very complicated, in ways I won't go into here, so I have different boundaries than I would if certain things were different. It makes it tricky sometimes to know what is preference and what is an absolute for me. The fact that she can be open and direct about these issues is part of what gives me enough trust that I can choose to continue our relationship in the first place. It is a huge character strength for me.

[waverider]

It makes it tricky sometimes to know what is preference and what is an absolute for me. The fact that she can be open and direct about these issues is part of what gives me enough trust that I can choose to continue our relationship in the first place. It is a huge character strength for me.

This is an essential distinction and comes down to what affects you emotionally (extreme unhealthy discomfort), compared to what is probably technicalities over issues (rights/wrongs /fairness/frustrations). Its about what is affecting you vs what is actually happening. This all tied in with your level of acceptance.

[Lou12]

Ooh I like that last explanation waverider!   

[Notwendy]

I think it comes down to caring about ourselves and what we can live with. If a committed relationship is something we value, and being in one that is not committed causes us distress, then the decision to be in the relationship can't be contingent on what the other person does, but what we can live with.

For instance, if she seems to like someone else, could you handle the worry? If she went out without you would you be distressed that she was with someone else? Maybe she is or is not, but can you live with the uncertainty?

Of course, no relationship has complete certainty, but we can know at the beginning how our partners feel. For instance, fidelity is a strong value for me, as a person. I am committed to not cheating because, I would feel as if I let myself down if I did. Of course I would also feel terrible if I hurt my H by doing so, but the boundary is for me. But even when I was not married, I didn't cheat on people I dated,  because being dishonest would really bother me. I would want to be with a partner who feels the same way as I do- because I know that I could not deal with the wondering well.

But some things I do not feel strongly about. I don't have to have the same political views as my SO- while I know people who would not like that at all. We don't have to share the same interests. But for some core values- I need to be aligned.

Honesty is one of them, and if your gf is being honest, that is a plus. I would prefer someone who told me up front that they were open to other relationships than to sneak behind my back. So, her openness may make this something you could live with, or not, but it is up to you to decide about that, not about what she does or doesn't.

[Lou12]

This is going to sound very invalidating but in all honesty how much credence can we really give to what a BPD says?

My BPD might say one thing one day and a total opposite the next. Which value do we believe?

I find this hard with my BPD and I find myself having to ignore some words he says and look at his actions instead. I think I'd go insane if I followed everyone of his values as they fluctuate so much :/

[Notwendy]

That's why we have to have our own values and bounldaries.

Those are under our control. What someone with BPD says or feels might change.

But still, they are adults, and responsible for what they say. So if someone says " I can't commit to you" then the decision of what to do with that lies with us.

It would be enabling, and co-dependent to second guess, read between the lines, or not hold them to their word. For their word to mean anything, they need to be responsible for it.

We don't have to react to it. If they say something when they are upset, then we don't have to react to it.

Behavior is another thing. Someone says to me that they want an open relationship, then that is their choice. Mine is to decide what to do.

[waverider]

This is going to sound very invalidating but in all honesty how much credence can we really give to what a BPD says?

My BPD might say one thing one day and a total opposite the next. Which value do we believe?

This is one of the first issues that learning about BPD throws up, just the pure extent of this, much worse than we actually thought it was. It often pervades things on an unnecessary micro level

I find this hard with my BPD and I find myself having to ignore some words he says and look at his actions instead. I think I'd go insane if I followed everyone of his values as they fluctuate so much :/

Getting to that "happier place' is a lot about acceptance of this. In a child we call it a vivid imagination, and we often even find it amusing, in an adult it is harder.  In an adult we assume sinister intent. In a pwBPD it is more about avoidance fear, insecurity and appeasement, with a huge dose of inconsideration. In short it is a lack of maturity and responsibility.

You are not going to stop it, that is their reality. The hesitation you may have before even considering a white lie, is not there. It is their reality, it is unnatural for them to organize themselves otherwise.

This is why the level of acceptance required is described as radical acceptance, it is not what we would think of as normal.

[Lou12]

Yes your right as usual  waverider hence why I don't internalise some of the big stuff and try to validate the everyday stuff.

I honestly do feel slightly patronising towards my bf at times but I can't help it. I want to scream 'do you expect me to take this sh1t seriously'. I am working on it though and as you've told me before it is his true reality.

I totally understand where your coming from Notwendy but what I find difficult about not holding them to there word is that there word fluctuates on a hourly basis.

Example... my BPD said to me last week 'I want to marry you and I love you more than anything'. This week our relationship is not going anywhere and we should break up.

Which words am I holding him to? I can't see any other way than to falsely validate both but totally ignore it? Pls tell me if theirs a better way?

[Notwendy]

The way I distinguish what someone says to me is by assessing it through my reality. So if someone accuses me of something, or dysregulates and says something, before I react, I ask myself, is this true? This is not the same as "does he mean it?" in that moment, he means it, but if it isn't true, or something that I need to address, I don't have to react to it.

I think we can also judge if what someone says is consistent. So someone saying he wants to marry me and the next minute saying we are through, then I take that in context too. - do I want to accept this information or not. If it is inconsistent, then I can decide that I don't want to put much emphasis on it.

If in the context of discussing commitments, my so were to say " I can not commit - and that person is saying it calmly, and consistently- doesn't say the opposite shortly after, then I can accept that at face value, and make my own decision about it. The person is responsible for their words.

I have held my mother accountable. Once she decided to not send the kids any presents as she was mad at them. Then, months later, she asked them what they wanted for their birthdays. I reminded her about what she said, and I was able to tell her that it is more important to be consistent with them. This way I set a boundary- she can decide to send them or not, but using this as punishment will hurt her relationship with them.

So my example if my so said he wanted to marry me and then not, I would wait until he was calm and say that I feel confused by this, and don't know what to believe. If you ever decide you want to marry me and you mean it, and you want those words to be special, please wait to be sure before you say them.

To saying I don't want to commit. Well if it was casual I would thank them for being honest and also see other people if I chose to. But for me, I don't want a one way commitment. So, I would say this isn't a committed relationship and when, or if you are ready to take it to that level, then we can discuss it at that time.

I think we need to be careful what we believe, what we react to, but I don't think people get a free pass on what they say all the time.

[waverider]

I honestly do feel slightly patronising towards my bf at times but I can't help it. I want to scream 'do you expect me to take this sh1t seriously'. I am working on it though and as you've told me before it is his true reality.

It does seem patronizing until YOUR personality changes so that you have the same tolerance to everyone, and so you are not having to roleplay to your pwBPD.

'do you expect me to take this sh1t seriously'

Thats just your frustration venting. I try to think of things differently now when i hear these flights of fantasy and think more along the lines of "thats an interesting story/view/interpretation", I often dont take the next step trying to determine whether it is true or not unless something important depends on it. I hear this sort of nonsense every hour over nearly everything.

eg If I say Im just going down to the store to get some groceries can you empty the washing machine and hang the clothes out when its finished. There is a 95% chance that it wont be done, "because her mum rang her up while i was out and abused her and caused her to get upset" so she hasn't had time, she was just about to do it (maybe lifted the lid when she heard me entering the drive). Then we spend the next 15 minutes being regaled with the whole fictitious story of being abused on the phone. She will get into such a state over this that the trip out for a coffee is now cancelled as she is too upset (that was a 95% chance of not happening either).

If there was a phone call with her mum her phone log will show that she made the call herself as soon as I left.

I swear it would have been less effort to just hang out the washing

Almost as though a complete stranger I just bumped into at a function was telling me a story about some experience. I don't get too wrapped up in whether it is accurate or not, simply whether it is interesting or not. That kind of depersonalization. In the above example I expected the task to be left undone and the whole excuse that follows is an interesting insight into how she is thinking. The whole dynamic with her mum is real, it just most likely did not happen when she said it did nor in the way described. Just an hypothetical exercise.


Sometimes though I still feel like screaming "AS IF! ", because I'm human.