IVF and BPD

[maxsterling]

W and I want to have a child.  We are both 40.  After meeting with fertility doctors, doing research, and getting a better understanding of the human reproductive system, we learned that the chances of natural conception for a woman over the age of 40 are low.  And since we know we have little time, we decided to try in-vitro fertilization.

For those unfamiliar with the process, it requires injections of hormones every night for a week or two, an egg retrieval surgery, fertilization in a laboratory, and implantation of the embryo.   I had concerns that this would be stressful and un-romantic, and that my BPD wife would not be able to handle the stress and the hormones.  Yet, we gave it a try.

As it turns out, her mood with the hormones was more stable.  And the process of me giving her injections and going to the doctor with her every day made me feel much closer to her.  My parents offered to help us pay for the procedure, which helped my wife feel closer to them.

In the end, it didn't work.  W did not produce enough egg follicles, and only two eggs were retrieved (doctors want to retrieve more than 5 to have a decent chance of success).  And as it turns out, both eggs were basically empty shells.  Afterwards, the doctor basically told us we could try again, but said that it would be truly a miracle if it worked, and basically told W that she was pre-menopausal, and that her smoking and drug use in her youth was a likely contributor.   This would be devastating for any woman to hear, let alone someone with BPD.  W took it much better than I feared.  She's depressed, but not completely broken. 

We had previously agreed we would try at least twice before giving up.  Even though the doctor told us the chance was slim, I said I am still wanting to try again.  The other alternative is to use an egg donor.  W seems to be more okay with trying the donor route than me.   Adoption is probably not possible given my wife's mental health history.  The required background checks would likely be a big issue.

I have BPD-related fears about using a donor egg.  Given the jealous nature of pwBPD, I fear my W will feel that since the baby is not genetically hers, she will feel as if I had produced a child with another woman - as if I had cheated on her.  We had discussed possibly having her cousin be an egg donor, and at times W mostly likes that idea, there was one moment when she blurted out "I don't want you to have a child with my cousin!"  Big  .   I also hear that psychological counseling is required for couples receiving a donor egg.  I fear there is a decent chance my W could be rejected at that step.  And then there is the money and stress.  The good news is that W's T had a baby via donor egg from the same clinic.  So maybe her T can help us out with these fears.

I was still set to try one more time using W's eggs.  But now W is acting like I am forcing her to do it, claiming that I am in denial, convinced it won't work.  She says I don't understand how badly she will feel if we try and it doesn't work.  And now she is saying she doesn't want to have a baby with her genetics because she is too defective. 

I'm okay with not trying again.  My motivation to try again is that adoption is not possible, and the fears I mentioned above about what would happen if we used a donor egg.  I also fear that W will get impatient because it will be 6 months before we can do a donor egg IVF.  Maybe I am just having too much fear here?  SO far W has done much better with all of this than I anticipated.   

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Verbena]

Max, I know how much you want a child and I know this is heartbreaking for you that your chances are so low. 

You expected a wild dysregulation if the procedure was not successful, and that didn't happen.  Part of me thinks that your wife's reaction to the failed first attempt at IVF might actually be relief.  Her comment to you that she is "too defective" reinforces my thoughts on this. 

Could it be that your wife KNOWS that she cannot cope with being a mother?  That she truly does want a baby but realizes she shouldn't given the severity of her mental illness? 

Even with the low chances, you still could end up with a baby with your wife.  I don't think it is productive to worry about "what if" situations in general, but in this case I do think you should.  If a baby happens, you will need a plan of action.

Will your wife stay home with the child?  Can you trust her to deal with a child by herself?  If not, can you afford some live-in help? 

You mentioned a few weeks ago, after your wife became violent (throwing and breaking things) possibly finding a new safe house for yourself since the people you stayed with awhile back had moved.  What about a safety plan that also included your child? 

These are tough questions but ones that are important. 

[Cloudy Days]

I can understand your frustrations, I am 30 and I was told at the age of 16 that I would never be able to have children myself without the help of a surrogate. I think it's part of the reasons why I was drawn to someone so damaged as my husband. Anyways, I get that she wouldn't want to try again because to try and get your hopes up and fail once more is much harder to deal with than to just accept that you can't do it.

I would certainly steer clear of any egg donor that you know because she will be jealous of her cousin or whoever it is that would be chosen. However if you allow her to choose the egg that is used and you don't know this person, I don't see how she could get angry at you for having a child with someone else because she doesn't know this other person. Another option would be to get donated sperm as well although I think she would love the child more if it was yours, but with BPD you really never know.

I know that I would love any child because I crave to be a mother, that may be your wife's thinking at this point. An adopted child would still not have been hers. At least with a donor this is her child from conception and to me that would mean a lot.

I have sort of accepted that I could not handle being a parent with my husband. I have settled for 5 dogs and the dream to adopt foster children if our relationship falls apart. A part of me feels like it was a gift to not be able to have children with him, because it is so stressful without that little life to worry about. Doesn't make me any less sad about it though.

[maxsterling]

Verbena - good thoughts.  When I objectively look at my wife's desire to have children, I suspect it is rooted in the idea that being a mother gives her an identity.  Her words and actions seem to indicate this.  Her actions up until her mid-30s were not the actions a person who wanted to be a mother would take.  I think it was the biological clock, friends having babies a single mothers, and a boredom/depression/loneliness with life that drove her in this direction.  She has made statements like, "I want to have a child so that way I will never be alone again," and "If I can't have a child I don't know what other purpose there is for me."  I think that is the way her brain works - that if she can't have a child, then what is her motivation to stay in a relationship and stay sober?

I think she does actually feel some validation when she hears she can't have a child.  I think she views herself negatively as a "bad person" undeserving of being a mother.  And this is validation of that.  I don't think it is "relief" so much as a confirmation of what she had already suspected and feared.

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure what you are asking or want.

You previously agreed to try IVF twice. However, when you tried it once, you received more news, that doing it again would have slim chances. Then, other options were presented. So there are now a few choices:

Try IVF again as you had agreed- keep the original agreement.

Let the new information you learned from trying IVF help you to change the original agreement and make a different choice. - the original agreement is void.

The new options are:

Decide to do nothing and remain as you are.

Use a donor egg from someone you know.

Use a donor egg from someone you don't know.

Adopt, ( not sure this is possible?)


I don't think anyone can tell you what choice to make. It is up to you and your wife. Yes, there are fears, sadness, stress and other emotions involved with the decision, as well as the consequences of that decision.

This is very difficult and emotional. It also involves choices that have an outcome we can not predict. But trying to see what the choices are- without the emotions- might help.

[formflier]

Max,

I've said it before, I'm very impressed with the way you approach life.  You have made some big "all in" moves that support your values and what you want out of life.  To me, none of those felt reactive, they seemed to be things that you considered for a long time, made your decision and got on with life.   

My gut says you skip the 2nd round of IVF.

My gut says you stay away from using a family member.

I think you should consider going for adoption and getting turned down.  Please take no action, but consider this for a while.  Your wife took this way better than you thought

I think she may take an adoption turn down better as well.

What is the status of her work situation? 

Hang in there man!  If you get time, my life has gotten much more "interesting" as of late.   

Polite way of saying BPD is back,

FF

[maxsterling]

FF- yeah, when I get time I will check out your latest  .

As I mentioned, adoption is really NOT an option.  I think the stress of that would be much more, because it means others must observe and "judge" us.  Lawyers are involved, social workers, money, and my wife in no way could handle that.

My question here is whether a donor egg is really an option considering the BPD.  Logically and emotionally it makes the most sense.  If a baby is what we want, a donor egg would have the highest chance of success.  I don't think whether using a family member or an anonymous donor makes much of a difference, as I can see where either could cause extreme difficulty for my wife.  I don't think an anonymous donor would solve the jealousy issue.  I could potentially see my wife being so jealous of an "anonymous" person that she goes out of her way to track the person down. 

As for her job, she is doing much better than she thinks she is.  I'm proud of her.  I help her grade papers, and I see the improvement in her students.  She seems to be doing better at dealing with co-workers, too. 

[formflier]

 

Max,

Understand your point of view on adoption.  Do you think the "judging" part my give her a push in right direction.  Only reason I am suggesting it is that she weathered the first IVF much better than anticipated.

Big picture:  It appears momentum in good direction, we want to keep up momentum (no slack off) but you also want to be wise and not put to heavy a load on that it is doomed to fail.


On the donor thing:  My understanding is this would be a donor egg (from unknown person) and then a surrogate mom (not related but you would know her).  Correct?

Is big girls/big brothers an option?  Is there a way to expose yourself to parenting and mentoring youth.  I totally understand it is not the same as your own kid, but might be a good baby step towards the baby that you desire.

FF

[Notwendy]

While choosing a family member or an anonymous person may not make a difference to your wife, one compelling reason to not choose a family member is for their sake. Your wife may feel jealous either way, but her behavior would not affect an unknown person. Yet the cousin, is right there as a target should your wife feel jealous and paint her black. I think it would be impossible to not have feelings hurt after going through being an egg donor for your wife.

It is not a simple thing. The donor has to take hormones and have her eggs removed. For an anonymous donor, this is a financial transaction. She gets the money, you get the eggs. For the cousin though, it is also family.

Three is a triangle. Using an anonymous donor would spare the feelings of the cousin, and not involve family drama. It would be a very generous gesture on the part of the cousin to do this. For this reason, I would consider being kind enough to her to leave her out of this.

[sweetheart]

"My question here is whether a donor egg is really an option considering the BPD.  Logically and emotionally it makes the most sense.  If a baby is what we want, a donor egg would have the highest chance of success.  I don't think whether using a family member or an anonymous donor makes much of a difference, as I can see where either could cause extreme difficulty for my wife.  I don't think an anonymous donor would solve the jealousy issue.  I could potentially see my wife being so jealous of an "anonymous" person that she goes out of her way to track the person down.  "

What you seem to be saying max is that if your w didn't have BPD then an egg donor would probably be the most successful option. Your question arises because she does, but it sounds to me like you already have your answer, you do not think your wife would cope with an egg donor.

I am confused by your thread, because I am unsure what you want here.

I think it's important that you listen to your w and maybe try and work within your initial IVF parameters.

I am aware that if you keep chasing additional options the risks around your w's inability to cope emotionally will probably increase. It will be important for you both long term to have clearly defined boundaries around these very difficult decisions.

Your original decision might be the best place to keep yourselves focused, so that there is a beginning and an end process for you both whatever the outcome.

[maxsterling]

On the donor thing:  My understanding is this would be a donor egg (from unknown person) and then a surrogate mom (not related but you would know her).  Correct?

FF

No.   It would be an egg from another woman, fertilized by my sperm in the laboratory, and the resulting embryo implanted in my wife.  She would carry the baby as if it were genetically hers.  The advantage of it being a relative is a higher success rate, more control from my wife's end (she could be with her cousin through the whole process and create an emotional connection to the developing egg).  The disadvantage would be that I would have a relationship with the cousin that my wife could get jealous of.  The drawbacks to the anonymous donor are us not being present when the donor is going though her process, not knowing how well the donor is screened or if the donor lied on her application, always wondering about the donor, and wondering if the donor was feeling regret a few years later.   the reality is, the donor gets paid a few thousand dollars.  So technically we would be "buying" someone else's egg.   That may feel weird.  If it was a relative, we would know the relative is donating out of the goodness of her heart and not out of a need for money.  

[Notwendy]

Which is why the cousin could potentially feel very hurt if your wife got jealous and painted her black.

You, wife, cousin = triangle.

The cousin would be doing this out of the goodness of her heart, which is why you should consider this.

Right now, you want a baby. You are thinking of you and your W, but a cousin has feelings too. This may be the best for you- you know the donor, you don't have to pay as much for the egg. You can be there. It all works better for you.

But this cousin will be putting herself through the task of donating. I don't think it would be possible for her to not feel some attachment to the situation. But you know what can happen if your wife gets jealous and paints her black.

Does the cousin know about your wife's emotional condition? If she doesn't, she is going to feel blindsided if she ever finds out. Are you acting in the cousin's best interest?

[Cloudy Days]

For me personally, I wouldn't want to use a family member because you would know that it is really their child. They would have an emotional connection to the child that your wife would not have because while she may have carried it and gave birth to it, it would still be genetically her cousins child, no matter what the circumstances were when the eggs were given up. The probability for having jealous feelings for any relationship the child has with this cousin (actual genetic mother) would be more likely to happen and there is potential for the cousin to get caught in the cross fires of your wife's emotions.

Having an anonymous person donate eggs, she never has to meet this real mother and that takes a whole lot of complications out of the equation. But that's just how I see it. The bonding of creating an egg doesn't need to happen. The bonding that needs to happen is you and your wife creating a child together. Having this third person in the mix spells out trouble to me.

The cousin will want to see this child and bond with it. What happens when you wife gets jealous of that bond and paints her black for it?

[Notwendy]

The child might bond to her too. Your child will have his/her own personality and be drawn to the people he/she chooses.

[Grey Kitty]

1. If your wife's eggs are very unviable (seems like the medical opinion of one round of IVF), then just because you are spending somebody else's money doesn't stop it from being wasted money. Especially if your wife doesn't want to do that.

That money can go in a better direction.

You were willing to try two rounds. You can revise that plan based on the best medical assessment of the first round.

2. Obviously any procedure or process needs your wife to accept it. Not just be medically viable/possible.

3. There is one other option you might want to consider, and it *might* be easier than adoption. Have you looked into being foster parents? While you are likely to get a child who has some bonus issues you have to cope with, it also isn't quite the level of commitment that being an adoptive (or biological) parent is.

[Cat Familiar]

I'll have to add my two cents here. I'm not a parent. I chose not to be a parent because of my upbringing with a BPD mother. I didn't have good role modeling to learn from and I was terrified that I'd parent a child the way she did, or do a 180 and try to do the opposite--both strategies would be tragic in my opinion. So with that as a disclaimer, I wanted to mention something that no one has brought up so far.

Infertility for many women is a very bitter pill and they often feel blamed and shamed by their husbands for their inability to conceive a biological child.

Your wife has said she's not interested in trying IVF again. Please believe her.

[Notwendy]

Cat brings up an important point- is your wife doing better than you are?

It is hard to deal with infertility, for both of you. Your wife is infertile, she has no viable eggs.

If you use a donor egg, the child will be yours genetically, but not hers. Yes, the child is both of yours, no matter how the child is brought into the world, but is this different for your wife?

If she is OK with not doing IVF or a donor egg, then are you pushing this because of your wish for a biological child?

There isn't anything wrong with that wish. It's normal. However, you can have a biological child ( using an egg from someone else) but your wife can not. She may not want to do this.

[maxsterling]

Thanks everyone.  I think I am being a bit misunderstood here. 

I'm okay with not doing IVF or a donor egg.  I'm also okay with trying either.  My issue is figuring out if my wife is really telling me what she wants.  Right now, she seems to indicate that she does not want to do IVF again and instead do a donor egg.  But at other times, she has indicated she wanted to do IVF but not a donor egg.  If she told me she did not want to do either, I would not push her - at all.  But I also don't want to make a decision for her.  So, my worries are:

- She may not want to do either and at a later date come back and regret and somehow blame me.

- She may say she wants to do IVF again, yet later come back and blame me for pushing her into it.

- She may say she wants to do donor egg, and later have a hard time with that.

And I need to figure out what *I* truly want, and figure out a way to communicate that with her that she does not feel pressured or manipulated.

[formflier]

Max,

I think I understand your question now.

Focus on figuring out what you want.  Then in separate process decide if and how to tell her.

Focus on listening to her in meantime.

FF

[Cloudy Days]

Figuring out what your wife wants is going to be hard. My husband gives me one answer one day and then completely flips it the next day. We made a decision to buy the home that we own at the moment together and 4 months later he said that to him it was a Fck it decision, he just wanted to move and didn't care where. So he blames me for buying the house even though it was his idea.

I don't think you will ever know what your wife really wants because she's not going to have the same opinion about it at any given time. There are drawbacks to every decision. Can you talk to a therapist about how you feel about it all and maybe they can help you with what you really want. If you really want something then you can own the decision rather than just going along with what she wants. Honestly I think she is going to blame you for something no matter what decision you make. I know that people with BPD have a hard time committing to a decision so they will put it off until you do it for them too and then blame you when it goes wrong.

If she truly doesn't want to do IVF anymore, take her at her word. I wouldn't push this on her again if she really doesn't want to do it. Like I said it may be easier for her to just accept that she is damaged rather than going through the hopes that she could have her own child and then fail once again. That's hard for anyone to swallow even without BPD.

[Notwendy]

I wouldn't say damaged. She's 40 and like many women her age, the eggs are old.

Max, what I think you are asking is what is the best decision that would lead to your wife not having regrets and not blaming you.

I think there is no decision that can do that, because it is likely that she will be sad, have regrets, and if blaming you is how she processes her feelings, then you can not prevent that either.

With or without BPD, this time of life isn't an easy one for women. Some women handle it better than others, and some are not bothered at all. However, some grieve the loss of fertility. It is a transition to the next stage of life. It is a loss of something that is very special. It is also a loss of youth. Yet, this kind of transition is natural as is the grief. Like many kinds of grief, it gets better, even goes away at times, but something might just bring it back, a little, the sight of a child or newborn can bring back those feelings ,briefly. Emotionally healthy people deal with them. Childless couples might even enjoy the freedom that couples with children do not have. Some people work with children. You say your wife is a teacher. I have known a couple of childless teachers, but they see teaching as a form of raising children, and so teaching is one way that they can be parents in a way.

You will grieve too. That is normal. However, these are the only feelings you have any input to. Make the decision that would work best for you and accept that you will have feelings about it, but that you can process them as well as have a fulfilling life.

Your wife may very well not know what she wants, and she may waver back and forth. The best you can do is give her the space to do so, and take care of your decision and feelings. Certainly, any decision you make has to involve the two of you. But her feelings are not something you can control or predict.

[Lexisdad]

In 2013 agreed to ivf with my BPD gf. She started the cycle of meds and eggs were retrieved. For 6 weeks leading up to the day of the implant was sheer insanity. Rages like i've never seen before to the point they were frightening. Day of the implant she backs out at the dr's office.

October of 2015 we both agree that we would try the ivf again. Cycle of injectiions begin and so do the uncontrollable rages. December 4th is our implant date. Its pure hell the cycles if rage and splitting she s in. December 3rd calls me up tells me we are not having a child and ended the relationship. I dont know if it was fear of engulfment or abandonment but no doubt the ivf put an end to the relationship.

[formflier]

Max

I would suggest NOT helping your wife figure it out.

Listen, validate and be present for her as long as she is not abusive.

Honestly it seems she handled this well.  Let her keep handling it.

What might this look like in your r/s dynamic.

FF