A feeling of deja vu

[confounded]

It's been a while since I was here. My story in a nutshell: I have a friend who is married, and with whom I have been having an intimate non-sexual relationship with (I'm also married, but my wife is fully aware of my relationship with this other woman and accepts it). A couple of years ago, my friend "disappeared" and ceased all contact with me, up until previous summer when she took a job near where I live - we kept running into each other almost on a daily basis and sort of got back together again. In December, she started working elsewhere, and at the same time, disappeared again. This time, unlike the last time, I did get one reply when I sent her a text saying that I miss her company and asked if she was ok because just the previous week we'd been exchaging messages on a nearly daily basis - she then sent a text where she basically said that she can't handle a friendship when she's so heavily attracted to me, that she needs space and that she's scared by the intensity of her emotions towards me.

It's not like she wouldn't have had the opportunity to tell that to me before, like when I told her I love her and would like her to be an integral part of my life from then on, or when I invited her to my place to meet my wife (they sort of know each other anyway), or when I read her a poem I'd written about her. But no, she waited until she could be sure she wouldn't run into me by chance before she did her disappearing act again. As far as BPD goes, she's not the worst - she hasn't been splitting me black as far as I know. But she does have an impeccable timing to cause the maximum emotional damage with her disappearing acts.

First I was angry - with her for doing the disappearing act again, then at myself for allowing it all to happen once again. But now I'm sort of meh. I think if our friendship, such as it is, keeps recycling like this, I will eventually reach a point where I cease to care - I try to be a good friend, to love her despite her various hangups, but ultimately it's her loss to keep pushing me away.

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[Grey Kitty]

Sounds tough, and I can see how you are sick of the cycle of pull you in close, then disappear for a while. When you say you might cease to care as a result of the pain from those recycles, that makes a ton of sense, and it sounds like you are half-way there already.

And your attitude about it (her running away is mostly her loss) sounds very healthy, I'd add

That said, this latest round includes disclosing a possibly game-changing situation... .and I'm wondering about the consequences there... .

This level of emotional intimacy could be called an emotional affair, only not quite. Your wife is aware and accepts it, so the "affair" part doesn't fit into your marriage. Our cultural norms for marriages don't provide me a name for that kind of relationship you have... .but it sounds like what you are doing is good, honest, honorable, and respectful of all parties involved.

You say she is married, and do not say if she has been similarly open about it with her husband. You also don't mention if you've met her H. That's on her, not on you... .but if she is hiding some or all of this from her H, that is more stress for her to deal with, and you should at least be aware of it.

So what about her being attracted to you? Apparently this isn't new for her, other than telling you about it, so she's been dealing (with varying levels of success) with the attraction and you not showing interest in her that way. If you keep it this way, not much changes. Possibly now that she's acknowledged it to you, things could become more stable... .but I wouldn't count on it.

You don't mention either that you are attracted to her, or how you felt about this disclosure. Think about these questions, and consider if you can say yes to ALL of them.

1. Are you attracted to her?

2. Would you be willing to risk getting more deeply connected/involved with her? It would happen! You've already said that she isn't too bad as far as BPD goes... .my wife also wasn't all that bad as far as BPD goes, and I gotta say that as we opened up our marriage to some more complicated things, there was a lot of drama created, and it wasn't all by my wife either!

3. Are you willing to ask your wife if she could accept this?

4. After asking #3, did your wife say "yes" and do you believe she really means it?

5. Does she want to do anything about this attraction? (It is possible to be with somebody you are attracted to and NOT act on it. Especially if you have their support in also NOT going there.)

6. Is her spouse OK with this? (And have you heard this directly from the spouse!)

If your answer to any of those is "No," then this relationship remains as it is... .wherever it is in the push-pull thing she's playing.

The alternative obviously requires a lot of careful consideration... .my list above would just be the start.

[confounded]

I don't think she's been very open about us with her husband - I know that he only learned about our friendship by accident, and given that my friend seems to be determined to keep us two apart, I doubt she has been very forthcoming about the special nature of our relationship. Personally, I think it's highly detrimental, because it keeps him guessing and gives room to wrongful ideas about my motives - although I'm attracted to her, I think it's nothing for him to worry about; I don't want to break up their marriage, and I have no intention of trying to get her into my bed; despite the sexual tension between us, I view this as a creative relationship, not a romantic one.

This is something she knows, something I've explicitly told her, but I don't think she's ever told her husband about it. I have met her husband a few times, before our friendship became deeper, and he didn't strike me as an especially jealous type, so I've always been open to us four getting together and agreeing about the limits where our friendship can go - my friend, however, seems to have different ideas and seems to want to keep me a secret - which in turn makes me feel like I'm somehow held in reserve. I have told her I don't want to be anybody's little secret, that I want to appear in public with her, but she has kept sidestepping the issue.

So, your questions:

1. Yes. The attraction is mutual, although probably of different quality - she is quite passionate, and it looks as if she runs either hot or cold when it comes to me; when we are together, her body language is quite sensual and she often hugs me by pressing her entire body against mine - and when we are not together, I sometimes doubt if I even exist for her at those times.

2. Yes. I took the risk of telling my wife all about us when our friendship started getting deeper. At the time I had no idea how she would react, but that risk was worth taking - the relationship with my wife has become deeper as a result, and we trust each other now perhaps more than ever before. I'm also willing to take the risk of taking the issue up with my friend's husband - should my friend accept it; it's her decision and ultimately her responsibility, if she wants to take things further.

3-4. Yes. We have talked about it quite a lot, and she has said that my friend is welcome to our life, but should we ever decide to take things to a sexual level, then we'd need to discuss it seriously beforehand.

5. Maybe. It's hard to say, because her body language says one thing, her words another - and some other day, vice versa. Sometimes she pulls, sometimes she keeps a distance.

6. I don't know. She says "no", but as she has not told him anything, he might have an entirely wrong idea about the whole thing.

This autumn I felt we were really getting somewhere, we talked a lot and our friendship seemed to become more intimate than ever - and then she dropped contact, as suddenly and without warning, as before. It was like she pulled a rug from under me, and for some time I couldn't help thinking that she lied to me when she told me that she loved me too and that she wouldn't want to lose me to jealousy. Maybe she really was serious, at least at the time, but her illness got the better of her again - nothing I could do about it.

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm very impressed with both how you and your wife are handling this!

 I'm not as impressed with how your friend is handling it.

So where does that leave you? With a couple things to resolve... .

First, how far are you willing to take things with the suspicion that her H is in the dark? From a boundary point of view, that really is on her, not on you. But personally I've got some real limits how much I'm willing to risk being the implement by which somebody else destroys a marriage. It is a messy place to be in, and intrinsically kinda fuzzy, which isn't much fun.

Second... .how do you plan to handle this friendship and the push-pull games?  They are not likely to get milder over time.

The tools and support you can find here will help... .but it isn't gonna be easy.

[confounded]

I've made a decision that I will not take it up with her husband, but should he ever contact me or should we meet on the town and he takes the issue up, I will then tell him the whole thing as I see it. After all, we are not having an affair as I see it - if I and my friend weren't sexually compatible, no one would think of us as anything more than good friends, and it would be a waste of a friendship to let it drop just because sexual tension is involved.

Last autumn was our first recycle, and now that I've experienced the emotions involved, I think any future recycles would be easier. It might be a different story if we were a couple, but since that's not the case and I also have the emotional support from my wife, and the resources from this forum, I think I can detach myself to an extent. I'll take the good from our frienship, and try to handle the bad as well as I can. So unless she starts splitting me black, I think I can handle it - though it might be that I occasionally need to let off a bit of steam here, where other people know how it can be... .

[Grey Kitty]

Well, you sound like you've found some peace in a not-quite-traditional situation, and are handling it with grace! Good for you.

You sound reluctant to take this relationship with your friend much farther... .and I find the wisdom of that to be obvious. (If you were to choose otherwise, understanding the risks involved, at a later time... .I'd understand that all too well myself)

Meanwhile... .you ARE seeing serious consequences of her BPD behavioral patterns. So far, she simply vanishes from your life for months/weeks at a time. And did that pretty much from the beginning. (Another member, patientandclear has an on-again-off-again relationship with a pwBPD who doesn't behave abusively, but does go away regularly, and has posted a good deal about her difficulties dealing with it and finding a way to define a relationship that works for her with him. If you aren't familiar with the story, you might want to look at some of her posts about it.)

You expressed fear of how you would handle if it she painted you black. To me it seems plausible that she already has... .however she doesn't go into the kind of abusive destructive tirades that so many other pwBPD do... .the kind that get their spouses to start googling and find these forums frequently. From my reading here, it is very clear that while there are may things that are common, there are also a lot of differences between individuals. Your friend may never do any of that.

Another possibility is that you already have very good boundaries. Abusive behavior generally starts with minor boundary-busting behavior that seems very insignificant on its own... .and it is. But it is the start of a pattern of going past more and more significant boundaries, which will eventually get to full physical abuse. But if you respond assertively to the first attempts to bust past your boundaries... .possibly naturally and without even really thinking about it or making a big deal about it... .the whole process doesn't even start. (If you want examples of small early boundary-busting behavior, read some topics about red flags and members worried about their new romantic interest on the dating board.)



All that is more in the speculation about your friend and general background department... .what about your actual situation?

I'd challenge you to ask yourself if there is more you can do from the lessons here on the staying/improving board. How can you respond to her in ways that aren't walking on eggshells around her, but also aren't causing any unneeded triggering of the sort of fears she almost certainly has as a pwBPD?

Do you have any bad habits of being invalidating? I know I sure did it a LOT before I started working on it, and that has improved all my relationships to become aware and cut most of it out. And I do mean all my relationships--Nobody likes that kind of thing, even though normal people won't blast off into a tirade, or disappear for three months over it.

We're here to help!

[confounded]

Do you have any bad habits of being invalidating? I know I sure did it a LOT before I started working on it, and that has improved all my relationships to become aware and cut most of it out. And I do mean all my relationships--Nobody likes that kind of thing, even though normal people won't blast off into a tirade, or disappear for three months over it.

What sort of invalidation are you referring to? I have to admit that I don't always take what she says at face value (she tends to exaggerate things), and we strongly disagree on a few social issues, but in that we have agreed to disagree. On the other hand I've also been supportive in many ways; though I guess that based on other people's experiences, she may not recall those times, and remebers only the slights.

My major failing - and one I recently apologized for in a text (she's not answering my calls, maybe she at least reads the texts) - has been trying to pressure her into making our relationship know at least to her husband, while she obviously isn't ready for it. I've also directly asked why she hurts me by vanishing without any warning like the year before, and that I fear it will again be like the last time when she disappeared for six months - that she answered with the text I told about earlier. Now that I think back on it, she may have felt that I unjustly blamed her, while she only wanted some time alone. However, it was also something I felt needed to be said - if that's the reason why I haven't heard of a word of her in six weeks and counting, then it's a price I'm ready to pay to make certain she knows how I feel about that.

[Grey Kitty]

Those of us "blessed" to have a partner that tends toward verbal/emotional abuse find ourselves with a perfect training ground to learn about all our habitual invalidating behavior... .because with an abusive pwBPD in our lives, we get a near-instant ramp up to dysregulation. Especially if you read some lessons here and get some coaching here with those "... .and then the fight started... ." conversations.

You do not mention any such stuff with your friend. In fact it sounds like she is so conflict-adverse that she waits until she's so hurt she has to run away for months, then does so.

This lesson is a good start:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

One subtle point--some things ARE invalidating, and you really do need to say them. (One possible example, telling her that you are hurt when she goes silent on you.) Just because something is invalidating doesn't mean you can't say it.

Just the same... .if you are like most people, you most likely say a dozen invalidating things a day, which don't need to be said, or don't need to be said in an invalidating way. Learning to just not say those things is a great thing!

[confounded]

You do not mention any such stuff with your friend. In fact it sounds like she is so conflict-adverse that she waits until she's so hurt she has to run away for months, then does so.

[... .]

This lesson is a good start:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Yes, she's very conflict-averse. She simply cannot say no when someone asks her to do something, which means she ends up doing a lot of things she'd rather not do - like taking an extra-long shift at work to cover for someone when she was planning to do something else, or being nice to people she actively dislikes just because she doesn't want to come across as b___y. Then she goes into hiding for some time the first chance she gets - usually just a day or two.

That lesson was a good read: while I don't think I've been directly guilty of saying those things, one major difference between me and her is that she is very emotional, and often acts before thinking - I'm the exact opposite. It's actually one discussion we had: I was wondering how two people with completely opposite temperaments - who by all means should be at each other's throats - get along so well. So I may have been dismissive when it comes to how she sees some things, because I cannot see the logic behind her opinions (because there isn't any) - this is something we probably need to work on, if we want to keep this relationship intact and improve it.