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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Dealing with delusions  (Read 480 times)
goateeki
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« on: February 01, 2016, 02:08:19 PM »

Coming up on two years since marriage of 19 years collapsed. Ex wife diagnosed with BPD, complex PTSD. History of parental abandonment and two rapes, one of which occurred during our relationship and resulted in conviction of assailant. We have two minor children.

My query concerns what I believe are deep, persistent delusions, invariably negative, and all of which translate to me being "a bad person," -- as she often states.  Specifically, how can these things (delusions) NOT affect communication between co-parents?  My T has said I should do two things: (1) Limit communication to the lowest practical level, but do not (2) indulge patent falsehoods, as doing so would only continue to insulate her from reality and that would be bad for the kids.  This isn't easily done, especially when every bit of information I feed into the system, it seems, is turned into something that is used against me.  If I'm rational and I respond to my environment, then isn't the smart thing to speak like the guys at Mission Control do?  Utter only the essential information and nothing more?

First, delusions. There is no other term for them, and I become more aware of them the longer I am out of the marriage. By way of background, I went to a lawyer and commenced a divorce within days of her uttering the words "We got here because I didn't feel like being married anymore and I still feel the same way." Marriage implosion, MC and divorce all in less than six months (I have a life to live). In December and January I went to Hawaii and NZ with my girlfriend. I'd asked her to bring the kids over while I was away so they'd be able to feed their fish every other day.

Well, that was a bad idea. Seems she (diagnosed ex wife) spent time in the house while I was away and doesn't like the fact that my girlfriend's picture (actually, pictures) is on the mantel near pictures of what she consistently refers to as (I quote) "my kids!"  She (diagnosed ex wife) called me last week and chewed me out about this, and here's the delusion part: She told me that she is especially upset because I never had a picture of her on my desk or office or anywhere in our 20+ year relationship. This is flat out false, and if we weren't talking about the ex wife, I'd say "and she knows it is."  There is no way that anyone living with me could think that this is true.  I had on my desk a framed picture of her, that she gave me in the spring of 1994, and it remained on my desk through four different jobs but for a six month sojourn on my dresser at home. The frame broke in 2011, and I kept the print in my desk drawer.  I had other smaller pictures of her in my office right until the week I went to the lawyer.

I explained to her that (1) whose pictures I have are of no relevance to her anymore, and (2) she's just dead wrong about me not having a picture of her. It was an important possession. It was a fixture of my daily work life like my keys, phone and laptop are. It was always present.

Her response was "Well I see it differently and if that's true, it didn't feel that way." 

I've never met anyone like this.  Her views of events and our history together bear less and less resemblance to verifiable reality, and they seem to be more hardened in her mind. 

She has even suggested to me that my efforts to be a decent dad (which doesn't take much energy -- it's me) who takes his kids out to have fun and participates in their school life are actually efforts aimed at denigrating her in the eyes of the children.  But some of these fictions are more elaborate than others. She can take an event in the world that she doesn't like, and if I have even the most tenuous relationship to it, she will create whole series of facts that make me, in her mind, the CAUSE of the event. 

Her family must see this happening, but they either buy it or just don't care enough to say "That didn't happen." How can a person live like this?  The price for "correcting" these delusions is huge, too.  She goes nuts when I point these things out to her, no matter how neutral my tone and now sparse my words.  And the comeback is always "Well it didn't feel that way"... .a phrase for which I can thank our incompetent marriage counselor.  Sometimes I think that's where this got its start.  She once described an ornate fantasy about me cheating on her (which has never occurred) and I said "That's simply untrue. None of it is true." She got very upset, and the MC jumped in and said "It doesn't feel that way. It feels true."  She said the same thing to us when my ex wife insisted that I called her "stupid."  I have never called her a name or been hard on her for her general lack of knowledge. But because "it feels that way," it is to her true, and it serves as the foundation for some very elegant groups of false beliefs.

Any advice on how to limit communication to an absolute minimum and still be a decent parent?  This is not an easy needle to thread.     



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Turkish
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 11:25:12 PM »

Can you get a fish-sitter the next time? 

What your T said in 2) sounds like, "don't validate the invalid."

Ivevlet my Ex into my home exactly twice since she moved out, the first time being the following weekend. The second time was almost a year later to use the bathroom when she dropped of the kids. She spent an inoordinant amount of time in there. I knew that she was inspecting, and I could have kicked myself. She said that there was poo in the toilet, and started talking about how the kids could get infections.

After she left, I went in to inspect. She's 4'11"; I'm 6'2". I bent over at a 90 degree angle (because I didn't see anything at first) to inspect the bowl and I did see two millimeter-sized specs under the rim. I had cleaned the bathroom not two days previously. It was a ruse to check up on me, and I got "caught."

Obviously, you having a new woman in your life is triggering a whole other set of anxieties.

Is it feasible for you to set up a boundary where she never enters your home again?
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2016, 11:36:54 PM »

Is the divorce finalized?

What is the schedule?

Does she also view you as a bad dad or bad parent?


My ex was not diagnosed with anything and I wasn't aware of Cluster B at the time of our divorce.

My ex had a delusional view of me as a horrible parent.

I made sure this was well documented in the divorce because, otherwise, I knew she would keep coming back with complaints in an attempt to further limit and control my time and relationship with our daughter.

By the time it was over, it was well documented how angry and over protective she was.   At this point if she went back and complained about something in an attempt to make me look bad, it would make her look bad.

The other thing I did during the divorce was always propose schedules that reduced the number of handoffs.  Thereby reducing the amount of communication.

Her behavior toward me was so bad and so clearly not in our daughter's best interest that I ended up with primary custody.   Her behavior changed overnight to happy friendly.   It's been that way for many months now.

1) She may have accepted the situation and it's genuine.

2) She may be putting on an act to get my guard down while she collects evidence.

In my case, I suspect narcissism because I have seen her keep herself stable and happy for years by using a simple narrative about herself to make herself feel good about herself.

The thing is, I don't know whether (1) or (2) is true because I don't know what her current narrative is.

Her family has a history of separation and reconciliation.   So a 3rd possibility is she could be running a reconciliation narrative.  

I really have no idea what to think.   So, I don't trust the situation.   But at the same time, if she is all happy friendly, I don't want to look like the bad guy.

I keep communication pretty limited to only things that are necessary to hand-off the care of our daughter.

Occasionally I throw in something developmental about our daughter.   Some new skill or behavior I saw.  Or something she learned.

The ex pretty much also sticks to things that are necessary to hand-off care.   When she throws in something extra, usually it's a description of our daughter doing something that she thinks demonstrates how attached, needy or clingy our daughter is to her.   Normally what the story she ends up telling actually shows is her having a hard time relating to our daughter emotionally and our daughter reacting to that.

So, by going a bit beyond trading only the minimal stuff, I get some glimpses into things that are interesting to know about, and good to have documented.

There is another thing I have in the back of my mind.   Right now I know my ex may still think she's looking over my shoulder with her own set of concerns.   The thing is, I got to experience a year of narcissistic rage directed at me.   If she ever shows our daughter the anger and hostility I got to see, there may be some future time at which I need to be the one looking over her shoulder and shining a spot light on things.

So, I can see some reasons for not shutting down communication down to the bare minimum.  Then again, my ex isn't currently acting like she's painting me black.   If she was, that would probably make it harder to go beyond the minimum for a hand-off of care.

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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 09:57:54 AM »

"(1) limit communication to the lowest practical level." I would interpret that as not just verbal communication. Letting her in the house just gives her more ways to attack you/fight with you/blame you/get a rise out of you/etc. I was told, I believe on this site, that negative engagement is still engagement. Over the years, ex left in 2007, I have continued to understand that better and better. I used to try to co parent. We had court ordered co parent counseling for ten months. After four visits the counselor asked me if I wanted to discontinue the counseling. I pointed out that it was court ordered for ten months. He said he would write a letter to the judge explaining the situation. I agreed and left. I strictly parallel parent. That works for me and our two boys.

"(2) not indulge patent falsehoods." I used to point out the untruths my ex said. We only communicate through email. The more I explained the longer the back and forth went on. Negative engagement is still engagement. I learned to ignore practically everything she sends me now. It took ex over a year to send less emails. I used to get 40 to 50 a month telling me what was wrong with me/what I did wrong/etc. and the majority was outright lies. When I stopped entertaining her by simply ignoring, the emails lessened to about 5 to 10 a month. I still get them but I no longer indulge her in her patent falsehoods and they have become less frequent. It's a matter of how you interpret "not indulge patent falsehoods." If ex sends me an email that ,if true, would jeopardize time with our boys I make sure I have evidence to refute her lie. I save it just in case I go to court. I never let ex know. This has, at times, led her to make more outrageous false allegations. If we go to court over it the judge will see my evidence then and I can explain my reason for ignoring.

It took me several years to get a handle on it.
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goateeki
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2016, 11:52:50 AM »

Turkish, Iron, David, thank you all.  It helps to know that others have had (and are having) similar experiences. 

Iron, "When she throws in something extra, usually it's a description of our daughter doing something that she thinks demonstrates how attached, needy or clingy our daughter is to her."  <--- I don't mean to disparage women at all by asking this (god knows the one I'm involved with now is a great person), but is it your impression that women seem to derive a great part of their identity from the dependence of children, while men generally push strength and independence?  I ask this because I see over and over again this "gatekeeper parent" phenomenon, and every time it involves a mother.  I have not once seen a father act as a gatekeeper parent. 

I've succeeded as a parent if my children are strong and independent and can live without me.  My ex would not only cry when the kids reached a milestone (and they were not tears of joy, she would say that the kids are growing up too fast and she would one day be alone), she would accuse me of being a "horrible father" if I allowed the children to walk away from me and experience independence. 

Our young son recently told me that he would like to spend time with a little girl in his class.  Her mother is friends with my ex.  I asked my ex for the girl's mother's contact information and texted her the idea of me taking the kids to the movies.  Now, this woman has a reputation for nastiness, and in her response, I experienced some of it.  I got a deeply angry and personal "My daughter doesn't know you and you would make her uncomfortable and I don't want to accompany you because it's inappropriate for me to be near a friend's (my ex wife's) husband." 

I don't know a man who would respond to a query about taking kids to a movie (as my young son requested) this way.

Mother-as-gatekeeper is also a well DOCUMENTED phenomenon, as well.  I was surprised to learn this but the vast majority of gatekeeper parent cases involve the mother.  I believe that Kelly Rutherford the actress is an example of it. 
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goateeki
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2016, 11:56:50 AM »

Iron, yes.  Divorce was finalized some time ago.  She moved out nearly a year ago.  Custody is an even split, which is exactly what I (and apparently the state legislature) want. 
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Turkish
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2016, 12:05:15 PM »

Our young son recently told me that he would like to spend time with a little girl in his class.  Her mother is friends with my ex.  I asked my ex for the girl's mother's contact information and texted her the idea of me taking the kids to the movies.  Now, this woman has a reputation for nastiness, and in her response, I experienced some of it.  I got a deeply angry and personal "My daughter doesn't know you and you would make her uncomfortable and I don't want to accompany you because it's inappropriate for me to be near a friend's (my ex wife's) husband."  

While that's a rude response, I wouldn't let my son, much less my daughter go with someone I didn't know. It's better to ease into these things by establishing a r/s with another parent first. The complication here, of course, is going through your Ex. Who knows what was said now or in the past.

"Hi, I'm goateeki. My son is friends with your D and has expressed interest in hanging out. Would you be interested in taking your D to [the playground or wherever public place] so they can play in a safe place?"

Or something like that.
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2016, 12:24:56 PM »

My query concerns what I believe are deep, persistent delusions, invariably negative, and all of which translate to me being "a bad person," -- as she often states.

This sounds like projection, a crude defense mechanism to externalize her own negative feelings onto you. It's much safer for a disordered person to process these feelings when they are attributed to someone else. I found it helped to change the pronouns to depersonalize. If my ex said, "You are a megalomaniacal, self-absorbed terrible parent," I figured he was trying to work through "I am a megalomaniacal, self-absorbed parent." It helped me *read* him.

Excerpt
Specifically, how can these things (delusions) NOT affect communication between co-parents?  My T has said I should do two things: (1) Limit communication to the lowest practical level

This sounds like advice to use BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) statements, which Bill Eddy talks about on his site www.highconflictinstitute.com.

Excerpt
but do not (2) indulge patent falsehoods, as doing so would only continue to insulate her from reality and that would be bad for the kids. 



This sounds like what Richard Warshak recommends in Divorce Poison. Even if you aren't worried about parental alienation, there are really good tactics in that book to help kids navigate the false allegation bombs they have to sort through whenever they're interacting with a disordered parent. It's very context specific advice, so it helps to get a copy of the book and apply the "how to" sections when you encounter different situations.

Excerpt
This isn't easily done, especially when every bit of information I feed into the system, it seems, is turned into something that is used against me.  If I'm rational and I respond to my environment, then isn't the smart thing to speak like the guys at Mission Control do?  Utter only the essential information and nothing more?

In some ways, you are fortunate in that there is a clear diagnosis and the kids are getting support for their feelings of rejection. This means you can validate how they feel when they're confused. In my situation, it would go something like this, ":)ad told you that I cheated on him when we were married? That must feel pretty awful to hear something like that. How did it make you feel when daddy said that?" And then, either soon or shortly after, set the record straight. "I'm not sure why dad said that, or why he says those things about me, especially to you. Your job is to be a kid, and this is adult stuff. Do you have any questions for me?" And then working in: "I did not cheat on dad. Why do you think he says that to you?"

The focus is on validating how my kid feels because that's job #1. I prefer to use validating questions because that way S14 can answer his own questions and in the process share with me how he feels and what he really thinks. He needs to work through that stuff so we can sit together and sort out what is true and what isn't.

Excerpt
First, delusions. There is no other term for them, and I become more aware of them the longer I am out of the marriage.



I noticed the same with my ex, ranging everywhere from delusions to paranoia to psychosis. The more benign stuff seemed to be fueled by feelings = facts. It sounds like your ex felt triggered to see her replacement (whether she caused the failure of your marriage or not) and is flooded by the feelings as though they are standalone experiences separate from reality. With BPD, the emotional dysregulation is so all-consuming and intense that the problem-solving, reality-based part of their brain is completely overwhelmed and inaccessible.

Excerpt
I explained to her that (1) whose pictures I have are of no relevance to her anymore, and (2) she's just dead wrong about me not having a picture of her. It was an important possession. It was a fixture of my daily work life like my keys, phone and laptop are. It was always present.

JADEing doesn't work when someone is in full dysregulation, like it sounds like she was. (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain). It's probably more effective when she's in full dysregulation to not respond, or validate the feeling if you're inclined.

Excerpt
Her response was "Well I see it differently and if that's true, it didn't feel that way." 

Feelings = facts.

Excerpt
She got very upset, and the MC jumped in and said "It doesn't feel that way. It feels true."  She said the same thing to us when my ex wife insisted that I called her "stupid."  I have never called her a name or been hard on her for her general lack of knowledge. But because "it feels that way," it is to her true, and it serves as the foundation for some very elegant groups of false beliefs.

My son has BPD traits and I've learned these past years that this approach (that you describe above) is designed to help dial down the intense feelings so that the other part of their brain (problem-solving, facts, reality) can be accessed. It seems to work well with my son. I can imagine in a failing marriage where there is a lot of built-up resentment and contempt that it would be much more difficult to focus on your partner's needs when your own are not being met.
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goateeki
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2016, 01:23:37 PM »

My query concerns what I believe are deep, persistent delusions, invariably negative, and all of which translate to me being "a bad person," -- as she often states.

This sounds like projection, a crude defense mechanism to externalize her own negative feelings onto you. It's much safer for a disordered person to process these feelings when they are attributed to someone else. I found it helped to change the pronouns to depersonalize. If my ex said, "You are a megalomaniacal, self-absorbed terrible parent," I figured he was trying to work through "I am a megalomaniacal, self-absorbed parent." It helped me *read* him.

Excerpt
Specifically, how can these things (delusions) NOT affect communication between co-parents?  My T has said I should do two things: (1) Limit communication to the lowest practical level

This sounds like advice to use BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) statements, which Bill Eddy talks about on his site www.highconflictinstitute.com.

Excerpt
but do not (2) indulge patent falsehoods, as doing so would only continue to insulate her from reality and that would be bad for the kids. 



This sounds like what Richard Warshak recommends in Divorce Poison. Even if you aren't worried about parental alienation, there are really good tactics in that book to help kids navigate the false allegation bombs they have to sort through whenever they're interacting with a disordered parent. It's very context specific advice, so it helps to get a copy of the book and apply the "how to" sections when you encounter different situations.

Excerpt
This isn't easily done, especially when every bit of information I feed into the system, it seems, is turned into something that is used against me.  If I'm rational and I respond to my environment, then isn't the smart thing to speak like the guys at Mission Control do?  Utter only the essential information and nothing more?

In some ways, you are fortunate in that there is a clear diagnosis and the kids are getting support for their feelings of rejection. This means you can validate how they feel when they're confused. In my situation, it would go something like this, ":)ad told you that I cheated on him when we were married? That must feel pretty awful to hear something like that. How did it make you feel when daddy said that?" And then, either soon or shortly after, set the record straight. "I'm not sure why dad said that, or why he says those things about me, especially to you. Your job is to be a kid, and this is adult stuff. Do you have any questions for me?" And then working in: "I did not cheat on dad. Why do you think he says that to you?"

The focus is on validating how my kid feels because that's job #1. I prefer to use validating questions because that way S14 can answer his own questions and in the process share with me how he feels and what he really thinks. He needs to work through that stuff so we can sit together and sort out what is true and what isn't.

Excerpt
First, delusions. There is no other term for them, and I become more aware of them the longer I am out of the marriage.



I noticed the same with my ex, ranging everywhere from delusions to paranoia to psychosis. The more benign stuff seemed to be fueled by feelings = facts. It sounds like your ex felt triggered to see her replacement (whether she caused the failure of your marriage or not) and is flooded by the feelings as though they are standalone experiences separate from reality. With BPD, the emotional dysregulation is so all-consuming and intense that the problem-solving, reality-based part of their brain is completely overwhelmed and inaccessible.

Excerpt
I explained to her that (1) whose pictures I have are of no relevance to her anymore, and (2) she's just dead wrong about me not having a picture of her. It was an important possession. It was a fixture of my daily work life like my keys, phone and laptop are. It was always present.

JADEing doesn't work when someone is in full dysregulation, like it sounds like she was. (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain). It's probably more effective when she's in full dysregulation to not respond, or validate the feeling if you're inclined.

Excerpt
Her response was "Well I see it differently and if that's true, it didn't feel that way." 

Feelings = facts.

Excerpt
She got very upset, and the MC jumped in and said "It doesn't feel that way. It feels true."  She said the same thing to us when my ex wife insisted that I called her "stupid."  I have never called her a name or been hard on her for her general lack of knowledge. But because "it feels that way," it is to her true, and it serves as the foundation for some very elegant groups of false beliefs.

My son has BPD traits and I've learned these past years that this approach (that you describe above) is designed to help dial down the intense feelings so that the other part of their brain (problem-solving, facts, reality) can be accessed. It seems to work well with my son. I can imagine in a failing marriage where there is a lot of built-up resentment and contempt that it would be much more difficult to focus on your partner's needs when your own are not being met.

Livednlearned, this is all hugely helpful.  I think that I have to slow down and be really careful when this stuff happens.  I take to heart what my T said about not indulging the obvious falsehoods.  He has said this a few times, and being a lawyer, I can spot an outright false belief -- some are hard and some are soft.  I'm not concerned with the soft ones.  I'm concerned with big, verifiably wrong false beliefs that hugely influence her view of me and therefore how she deals with me.  She also believes that I was more or less always cheating on her, which is the opposite of the truth.  But I don't think that there is any way to cause her to believe anything different.

I think that my T, though he urges me to be selective in which battles to fight, wants me to call her on this stuff from time to time because it doesn't help anyone to permit her to cling to grand falsehoods. 

There have been times when she has said things like "You have always cheated on me," and then at a future point when I reference that statement, she denies that she ever said such a thing. This usually comes up in discussions where I am gently trying to tell her that she has many beliefs about me that are plain false (the recent "you never had a picture of me" exchange being one), and I use an example or two to convince her.  She will either deny that she said it, or adhere even more strongly to the false belief.  There is literally never a situation in which she considers that she could just be mistaken, as we all are sometimes.   
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2016, 09:24:34 PM »

goateeki, it looks like in my story you detected elements of my ex being a gatekeeper and encouraging our daughter to be needy as opposed to independent.  I can confirm for you that, absolutely yes, my ex was an extreme gatekeeper, and yes my ex absolutely loves to feel "needed" by our daughter.   

But, when it comes to the question of how many men or women fall on one side or the other, I think that there are tendencies, not absolutes.   I would agree with you about which side of these women tend to end up on, but I have no sense of how weighted to one side the tendency is.

Beyond what the tendency currently is, an interesting question would be, how many men would be gate keepers if the system allowed it more often, or even encouraged it?

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 07:05:58 AM »

Beyond what the tendency currently is, an interesting question would be, how many men would be gate keepers if the system allowed it more often, or even encouraged it?

Great point.
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2016, 10:43:36 PM »

Beyond what the tendency currently is, an interesting question would be, how many men would be gate keepers if the system allowed it more often, or even encouraged it?

Great point.

Thanks.  In your case these things are this way and it's messed up.   Don't drop that.  It's messed up.  But at the same time if you pick up the axe to grind of "women are so... .", that's a failure.  Maybe they aren't, it could be a social, cultural thing the way things currently normally unfold in our society.   If both society and culture were different, men and women might act differently.   There may be some biological root differences between men and women.  But we have to rule out cultural and social conditioning as well.  Even in that there may be a total tangle that you can't untie.  It could be women have co-evolved with co-existent conditions to make them go this direction.  So it's a combination of "it's real" and "it's just what we believe".   It's hard to sort.  But the thing that brings the most clarity is kind of, how would men act if they were not just allowed, but encouraged to be gatekeepers.  (After 10, 20, 100, 200, 100,000 years?)  After some point, it might be built into our DNA to be defiant.  And you might actually be right 'they are that' but no 'I am this'.   I can't deny that possibility.

At that point, you're depending on historically, how many men actually formed a true connection with the woman who produced a child and followed on to care for the child.   That's pretty much what women want and directly seek.  How often does it actually happen?  Is it the rare case or the common case?   I don't know.   Maybe certain cultures are responsive to pair bonding and continue, while others subvert it and collapse.   I really don't know.   SRY.
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