Do BPDs validate?

[Thunderstruck]

We are trying to discuss SD11s acting out behavior with uBPDbm. We keep explaining that it happens on Mondays after her weekends and that it interferes with homework time (SD is too busy screaming at us to focus on school work).

It's weird... .uBPDbm describes what sounds like she validates SD. uBPDbm said "It's about listening and nurturing and catering to her wants and needs within reason and showing her thru actions that you love her. She doesn't feel she gets that when she's there. That's why she acts out and had fits when she's there. She tells me all the time that she's so glad I just listen when she talks and allow her to have an opinion."

But from what I understand of BPDs, they are unable to validate.

What we feel is happening is that SD11 complains to uBPDbm about our rules and punishments. uBPDbm encourages it (she eats it up, she loves hearing SD talk badly of us). Then she tells SD how "mean" we are and how "abusive" we are. It undermines our parenting and is uBPDbm's method of PA. It makes SD feel better to vent but when her mom ratchets it up, it makes her resentful towards us.

Is there such a thing as negative validation? SD feels that she "can't have an opinion" with us, but what she considers opinions are her talking badly of other people (her teacher, her infant brother, her mom, us, everyone). We don't like to encourage that. Maybe we need to spend more time having SD express her feelings without name calling?

[Nope]

In my experience it's more like BPDs can think they are validating when they are actually not. It's one thing to say the right thing and entirely another to actually successfully do it. The BPDm my family deals with either ignores the kids when they talk about the things she doesn't want to hear. If they were to say anything nice about us in her hearing this would be the case. If they were to say anything nice about us directly to her she would rage and punish. But if they say bad things about us they get attention and sympathy. Conditioning them to say and do things based on how she will respond is not validation. But I'm sure BPDm thinks it's validation.

In a way, it's how my T says to parent. Ignore and do not validate what you don't like, and give praise and validated what you do want to see. When kids see they can't get the focus and attention from the negative behaviors but do get attention and praise when they do what you want things start to change.

The reason SD likely feels she can't have an opinion is because the same things that get her a positive reaction at her mom's do not get her the same reaction when she is with you. Different house, different rules. I think it's important to establish things she can easily have an opinion about. She's a preteen so picking her own clothes and deciding her own sense of style are probably becoming important or should be about to start. I know when my SD was 11 (she's turning 13 next month) she really wanted to develop her own sense of style but was stuck because her mom had a very clear idea of who she wanted SD to be and what she should like and what she should wear. It helped that when SD was with us we gave her a lot more autonomy in the areas we could than she could ever hope to get from her smothering mother.

[Thunderstruck]

Thank you Nope. After reading the message from uBPDbm I felt like maybe *I* was the crazy one!

It's so strange how uBPDbm says all the right things but never actually does them.

I do really think she encourages SD to only say negative things about us. If SD says something positive she would be cold and withholding.

I think DH and I could stand to validate some of SDs feelings a bit better. She does get choices and opinions at our house, of course she does. And we have long talks about feelings and behaviors. I don't really know why SD latched onto "they won't let me have opinions".

One solution I mentioned to DH was, maybe on Mondays after school we have SD meet with a T. That way it will give her time to let out all the pent up feelings from her mom's. Of course, we mentioned a T to uBPDbm and she said SD doesn't need therapy. Ok, she's acting out with us and with school. You constantly say it's because of how we treat her. Yet, you say nothing is wrong and she doesn't need therapy? 

[Thunderstruck]

Edited: Oops, don't know why it posted twice.

[bravhart1]

I think you are right that she is not so much validating as encouraging SD to vent negative stuff about dads house. That's not validation, that's PA.

I also want to encourage you to question the validity of moms statements more. It sounds like you are buying into her "facts" about what SD thinks and feels, if this did not come from SD's own mouth disregard 100%, if it did, it might still be moms words recycled, I'd take about 30% in of that. Our experience with SD is that mom highly encouraged trash talk about us, to the degree that SD would make stuff up just to keep mom happy. Then mom would write therapist and us ranting emails about how SD feels about the things we were doing, ( the things that SD had made up to appease mom) it was a vicious cycle of lies and assumptions.

I would try to find a similar unrelated to SD type of example to show SD how this works.

For example SD has been saying for years how her mom loves her more than we do, because her mom told her that.

So the next time I heard her tell dad she loved him, I said, "you know I love dad more than you do" she was outraged. It was hilarious. I then asked her why she was so upset, became quietly curious, listened to her  reaction and after she got done explaining how it was so uncool, untrue for me to say that, I let her know that's how dad and I feel about her mom saying she loves SD more.  it was a very illuminating aha moment. She got it. I told her I made it up to show her why that was wrong and she was fine, if not a bit more savy to the bs mom shares.

You wrote that SD might like to speak badly of her new infant brother? I'd find a unrelated thing, like someone hating a puppy to show her that's uncool. What could an innocent baby have done to hurt her? Need caring for? Well she was a diaper full of need at one point in her life too, no one was showing the poor manners to complain. They need to be shown the light!

Good luck, 

[scraps66]

BP's invalidate all those around them, especially children.  I've discovered that my PA S11 suffers from his mother continually invalidating him by, having him take up her position on certain things, sharing inappropriate information with him about how he is treated at school - how "unfair" the principal is for how she treats him, suggesting that he only do certain things at her house, as opposed to doing what he wants regardless of where he is.  He can't make up his own mind, he feels obligated to take up mom's position always.

A BP's treatment of partners and family members can do the same thing, invalidate by fabricating ways of convincing others that they are wrong or their way of doing things is not worth considering, it's all invalidating. 

[Turkish]

One could also look at it like validating the invalid. BPD mom creates a drama triangle at her home. She's the victim, D buys into it, she being cast as victim as well, while mom moves around to be Rescuer by validating the invalid.

[newstempom]

I agree 100% with scraps & Bravhart.  In my situation, uBPDbm swears to DH that S9 & S13 tell her they HATE living with us.  She says they cry and sob when they have to come back to us because all their dad and I do is yell at them and treat them like our slaves (we assign them simple household chores).  Our best guess is that the kids vent about our rules and she hears what she wants.  Or perhaps the kids to tell her what she wants to hear because it creates less conflict.  Either way, it sucks.  All 4 of them went to see T together a few weeks ago and the boys said "well, we really don't like dad's new wife."  That really confused us because the kids and I always laugh, joke, play sports/games, and generally have a good time when we are together.  T asked DH & uBPDbm to leave the room for part of the session.  DH is going back alone this Thurs but it will be interesting to get T's input.  I just want to believe so BAD that people can see through her delusions.  She has sadly done a number manipulating her kids to her own agenda.  Just wish I could do more to protect them.  But we gotta keep on going, right?   

[ForeverDad]

Too, they will validate what they want to validate, sometimes correct, too often not, especially when it comes to those closest to them.  That's where the emotional baggage is most evident and deeply impacting.

It's is especially hard for our children since the parents should be major resources in their mental, social and emotional development.  When a parent can fly off the handle at any moment or is determined to distort reality then the children are at great risk of having reality repeatedly rewritten for them and they have a hard time observing objectively, forming conclusions and sticking to them.

[unicorn2014]

We are trying to discuss SD11s acting out behavior with uBPDbm. We keep explaining that it happens on Mondays after her weekends and that it interferes with homework time (SD is too busy screaming at us to focus on school work).

It's weird... .uBPDbm describes what sounds like she validates SD. uBPDbm said "It's about listening and nurturing and catering to her wants and needs within reason and showing her thru actions that you love her. She doesn't feel she gets that when she's there. That's why she acts out and had fits when she's there. She tells me all the time that she's so glad I just listen when she talks and allow her to have an opinion."

But from what I understand of BPDs, they are unable to validate.

What we feel is happening is that SD11 complains to uBPDbm about our rules and punishments. uBPDbm encourages it (she eats it up, she loves hearing SD talk badly of us). Then she tells SD how "mean" we are and how "abusive" we are. It undermines our parenting and is uBPDbm's method of PA. It makes SD feel better to vent but when her mom ratchets it up, it makes her resentful towards us.

Is there such a thing as negative validation? SD feels that she "can't have an opinion" with us, but what she considers opinions are her talking badly of other people (her teacher, her infant brother, her mom, us, everyone). We don't like to encourage that. Maybe we need to spend more time having SD express her feelings without name calling?

From my limited experience, it sounds like triangulation to me. It definitely doesn't sound clean  on the bio mom's part.

[sanemom]

This kind of "validation" is our BPDmom's primary means of PA.  It's brilliant really--that way, the kids do not think SHE is talking bad about us.  The counselor realized that the kids' primary way to get BPD mom's attention was to complain about our house, and she would "validate" them.  Since they are so attention starved with BPD mom, if they can find a way to engage her, they will take it.

When the counselor tried to institute a system where the kids only talk about mom's house at mom's and dad's house at dad's, BPD mom went ballistic!  She agreed initially but then obviously kept pressuring the kids.

[bravhart1]

^^ Agreed Sanemom, this does seems to work brilliantly and serve all the BPDms  purposes and desires, whilst making us other parents look like turds.

Not a good day for me. Getting so tired of hearing about how BPDm is so super great, and we are mean and no fun.

[unicorn2014]

Well the ASPD dad called me and wanted me to discipline our daughter because she was an hour and a half late to their meeting. I told him this was an opportunity for him to put into practice what he's been learning in his parenting class but I highly doubt he'll do that. I'm sure he'll go all soft on her . I told him I was not going to discipline her because she was late to their meeting, that was his job and if I were in his shoes I would not be happy with her. (She doesn't dare come home 1.5 hours late with me or she'll get in big trouble).