She forwarded an email to her family and our kids

[formflier]

So, I figured out today that at some point, she must have found my laptop unlocked and snooped.  Forwarded an email to a bunch of people in her family and to our kids.  

Obviously will have to redouble my efforts to always lock my computer, even for a second, if I will be gone.

I don't see anything in here that is particularly bad, it seems obvious to me that I am asking for help finding solutions.  Have had a couple good phone calls with this provider.  He was our family therapist, lots of good changes came from all this.


Start of email to my provider


I hope this email finds you well.  I'm in a new situation without a support network and need advice so I can hopefully not make things worse.  I

We have moved to (name the state) to get better veterans benefits, basically here my children get free college due to my status.  With 8 kids, you can do the math.  It's huge.

We are closer to my wife's family here, so were thinking the support network would be better.

Well, we've been moved in for two weeks now, or I should say have been in the process of moving in for two weeks.  :)uring the week (ff wife) seems normal (for us) and during the two weekends that we have been here (ff wife) has been a completely different person.

Last weekend I was not allowed to sleep (she kept TV cranked up loud) until I went to hotel at 1am.  I directly asked if she would be able to lower the volume so I could sleep and she directly answered no.

I came back next morning, she was gone and kids here.  Kids and I are doing some moving in project work in garage.  She comes home and orders them into the van to go to a water park.  I tried to ask what was going on and in front of the kids she threatened to call police if I didn't let everyone go to water park?

Called back an hour or two later sounding remorseful and said she would be home in 30 minutes with kids to help with moving.  Showed up a couple hours later and sent the kids that could help me over to her parents house to do a project.  

That evening she said she would keep it quiet and I should go to bed right away.  More like she ordered me to bed.  I was so tired I was instantly asleep.  Kids came up from basement and were wrestling outside bedroom door and woke me up.  I went to ask (ff wife) about it and she didn't speak, just stared at me.  Off I went to hotel room again.

Note:  Good news, no rages or triggers in me, although I am sad and don't understand this turn of events.

Sunday I came home and it was like it didn't happen.

All week it was "normal" with exception of one grumpy morning where she couldn't find something.

Today we went to to restaurant to talk I ended up walking out of restaurant when she became critical of my efforts at home, said she does everything, I do nothing, called me some low level names,

I come home to her sister and her sisters kids in the house (came from TN).  I had no idea.  (ff wife) let me know they would be up late and if I want to sleep I should go somewhere else, and also suggested I should get an apartment somewhere else so we wouldn't have to spend so much money on hotels.

I'm at a loss, didn't see it coming, we had a long good stretch.  She would or did say as much.  It was like a light switch flipped and I've always been black, etc etc.  

You know "our case" as good as anyone.  I'm at a loss as to what a good move is for me to make here and could use some help.

end of email to provider

Any thoughts?  If a disordered person reads this, what do they "see" or "hear".

FF

[Notwendy]

They would "see" that you had written an incriminating, and critical e mail about her.

Knowing your story, this is an appeal for help, but I don't think someone with BPD would see it that way. I think this e mail would be triggering for them.

You've been down that path before with her getting into your e mails, so you know she does this if she can.

That's a boundary issue that I am well aware of. We didn't have e mail growing up, but if we got a letter or had a diary, anything, mom would read it. When internet came along, my mother read my father's emails, and listened in on his phone conversations. One of her main concerns was to see if we were talking about her.   Add a little paranoia to that, and she assumed we were.

An email like this would have been confirmation that her thinking was true.

If we ever were discovered to be saying anything negative or possibly negative about her, then that would result in rage and dissociation.

Looking at this through my experience, I would say that your wife was quite upset when she read this. Her act of forwarding it was triangulation. Proof that you are against her and to rally her people to her side.

My side/your side is a black and white thinking pattern that along with triangulation is how my mother deals with what she perceives as a critical "attack" on her. She has even announced that her FOO "they are on my side" and they truly are. She has painted me black to them for so long that they don't even know me, only the stories she tells about me. As upsetting as it is to see your wife do this with your kids, it was also distressing to see my mother do this with my father- rally him to "her side" and paint me black, because, sadly for me, she was quite effective at it.

One thing to keep in mind is that, while you have spoken in terms of tactics and are a military guy, your wife's actions are less likely to be a well planned military maneuver than an in the heat of the moment rage. My mother has done/said similar things when enraged, and sometimes can't even remember doing them, and others has realized them and tried to patch things up. I think your wife is very triggered right now, perhaps by the recent changes, the upswing in conflict and this e mail is serving as some kind of evidence of her suspicions whatever they are.

But when it comes to boundaries, I have one concern about all this, and that is your children. In the grand scheme of things, her FOO is not your concern. She can, and will say what she wants. I had to recognize that my mother's FOO was out of my hands. They choose to believe her and in that case, I can be polite to them but not engage in this "she says, I say" situation.

But you see FF, I was in the position of your kids when I was growing up, and so that is one boundary that I see as a serious violation and this, of all the issues, is the more distressing to me. By rallying them to her side, she is putting them in the position of rescuer. This is not a safe or developmentally appropriate position for a child. It in essence parentifies them- makes them an adult- and in a way "her parent". Children need to know that their parents are there to protect them, not the other way around.

[formflier]

But you see FF, I was in the position of your kids when I was growing up, and so that is one boundary that I see as a serious violation and this, of all the issues, is the more distressing to me. By rallying them to her side, she is putting them in the position of rescuer. This is not a safe or developmentally appropriate position for a child. It in essence parentifies them- makes them an adult- and in a way "her parent". Children need to know that their parents are there to protect them, not the other way around.

We are exactly on the same page with this.  She has had this explained to her in counseling and classes, and when normal she will agree and say this.

When dysregulated, hold on, you never know.

Any idea on how I can do a better boundary with kids.  I'm thinking I can't, because I don't control them, or don't want to go through the confrontation that it would take to control one of them.

I certainly want to address this in counseling.  Likely will be my top issue, to somehow get this into the realm of a marital conflict with 2 people, vice whoever she rallies to her side.

For me, growing up I didn't have boundaries explained to me, but I saw them in action.  My parents rarely let me see the inner workings of their r/s.  I can count on one hand the number of times I remember a fight or knew that something wasn't right. 

I was also raised to not carry tales and that if it was something important, people should see it for themselves and make up their own mind, vice accepting someone elses version of this.

My thinking was very much along those lines when calling my Dad about the noise/party at the house.  That was the first time he heard or knew about any details of marital conflict.  He obviously knew some stuff was not that good before, but I didn't get into details.

Notwendy,

So, when your mom found "proof" that you Dad was tattling on her, how did that get patched up?  I'm guessing he capitulated to her point of view.

FF

[Notwendy]

Sorry, to clarify, my mother didn't find proof that my dad was tattling on her. She found proof that we were, and this led to disregulation and rage on her part. Dad would get angry too. Taking about her was a major rule in the family: literally we were not to say anything that would insinuate that she wasn't just wonderful or we would get punished.

For all purpose, it appeared to us that my father did accept her point of view. From how she reacted when finding out we had tattled on her, I can only imagine that her reaction if he did it would be similar. I am putting myself in my mothers shoes, reading that email you wrote about your wife, and she would have been triggered into a major rage.

I am trying to make the point that your wife's actions- to forward the emails were likely done in the heat of the moment anger rather than part of some planned tactic.

I am also making a case for the children. Forwarding the email to them was a boundary violation to me.

The kind of night you described with her banging on the door was one we lived with constantly. Although we did pretty well in school, there were times we showed up not having done homework because we were hiding somewhere in the house at night listening to them argue. Once I told the teacher the truth and he called my mother, who assured him that we made it up. Nobody believed us. We lived near her FOO and I even reached out to them for help but they would not acknowledge it. We learned that nobody would believe us, even our father. However, between us kids, we talk about it. We are the reality check for each other. My father supported us  thankfully-( this was the era when wives did not work- I know that your wife is working, but in my parents' era, that was a non-issue )so we were not worried about not having food, or clothing, or shelter, but emotionally, we felt that there were no adults in our lives that would protect us emotionally or believe us.

I'm also not advocating that you become a compliant doormat. But it is hard to balance the needs of the kids, protecting the kids and risking these arguments when you enforce boundaries.

[formflier]

 

Notwendy,

Was your entire childhood like this?  Did it switch at some certain point?  Where did you fall out in ages (order of kids)?

Do you think you understand where your mothers stuff "came from"?

If to personal I get it, thanks for sharing.

Note:  How do you think you and your brothers and sisters would have felt if Dad stood up to her.  If you heard Dad telling her what she was doing was wrong and harmful to kids.  What if Dad took you aside privately and listened, was open to questions and didn't "push" his point of view.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

FF,

I realize your question is not to me... .

I would have LOVED if someone validated the small part of me that believed my uBPDmom's behavior was outrageous!

This inner conflict of mine of parts of me thinking something was wrong, and parts of me normalizing it to cope was one of the most damaging aspects of my situation growing up.

Living in chaos, but seeing other family members treat it like a Leave it to Beaver family... .really messed with my mind.  It made me question myself.

If I could have one wish if time was turned back, it would be just that... .

That ONE person would have spoke to me in a way to validate that little voice in me that knew something was NOT ok with this woman. (To help it bloom earlier in life)  I wish that person would model for me an appropriate reaction to outrageous behavior vs life out the script that it is all of our jobs to not make mommy upset, because 'we know how she is."

I wish for one person to have rejected the family script in front of me. 

For just one person to veer off the FOO script and treat her like the world didn't revolve around her would have been immensely healing for me.

(I liked what another poster person said in another thread:  I am leaving because mommies and daddies are not supposed to yell at one another... .)



_{(I was sent to therapy as a very young child.  I was told nit to tell the therapist ANYTHING... .or else.  I was injured, again... .told to keep my damn mouth shut at the hospital... .or else... .etc.  everyone acted held hostage by her emotions and abuse... .even all the adults in the family knew what not to do to upset her.)}

[Daniell85]

She's running a pretty successful smear campaign against you.

I went through that when I divorced years ago. It destroyed my life. My ex told me later that was his intention: "to take you so far down you would never get up".

He actually told me. We were "friends" then. It was 5 years after the event. What I found out a couple of years ago, is that it never actually stopped in many areas. I just didn't know it was happening until my son was screaming profanities at me and calling me filthy names telling me to NEVER contact his dad again for any reason in any way EVER. Because I had been harrassing his dad, I was a liar, I was a psychopath.

Which was bizarre to me because it was the ex always contacting me, wanting to borrow money or this or that.

Son has refused to speak to me since.

Point I am making, and I dislike saying this, is that probably the damage is already done. What could I truly do about it in my case? Nothing. I lost everything the first time around, except my son and years later, I have lost him ( for now) too.

When smear campaigns are run against you, the more you try to clear them up, the more nutty you end up looking. Like it's true.

Your wife appears to be NPD to me. She's already stitched you up.

I would be gathering every bit of her (factual and able to present to the court) behavior in order to make a case for abuse, parental alienation. IMO, you are wasting your time trying to convince anyone of much of anything in terms of her family. Your kids? Your S15 is in a bad way. He loves his mom, she's been working on him.

Your older kids... .are they on board with you with understanding?

I don't know the ages of the other middle children. How old are they?

[Notwendy]

FF, I don't know if information from my childhood can be as helpful considering the lack of resources and information about BPD in that era. What I think is more helpful is that I can see things from my mother's point of view, or at least understand her reactions and what triggers her. One thing that really triggers her is being spoken about in a negative light. So I know that seeing an e mail like yours would have been very triggering to her.

I can speak from my own point of view that my feelings and understanding of my parents and my mother evolved over time with maturity. There was hiding in the house when I was younger and my parents were yelling at each other. There was initial terror at the idea of them getting divorced to the teenage cynicism of wishing they would just do it. Neither was I in the position of judging. Dad would not leave her no matter what and this wasn't something I understood until recently. My feelings about my mother ranged from wanting my mommy to hating her guts to a more mature understanding of her as a person with a mental disorder. My father, I was very attached to and cared for very much. I saw him as the normal one, even her victim, but eventually realized that he did the best he could in the circumstances.

My childhood was really a combination of wonderful and very sad. I don't see it as black or white, or good or bad. I think my father was a wonderful parent and human being.  I am also grateful for my mother and I see our relationship in a philosophical/religious context. I think they both have done the best they did in the circumstances they had and I am grateful.

[Cat Familiar]

One thing that really triggers her is being spoken about in a negative light. So I know that seeing an e mail like yours would have been very triggering to her.

FF, I'm really sorry things have gotten to this point.   

I see some similarities between my mother and your wife, so I'll add my two cents. Like your wife, my mother had no compunction about snooping in other's things. Nothing that belonged to me was safe from her prying eyes.

And, like your wife, she was paranoid. She thought others were constantly talking about her, even strangers in a restaurant if they were laughing, they must be laughing at her.

It was forbidden to share anything about her with anyone. And if she found out I did, there was hell to pay. I would suspect that your wife would consider that email to be a terrible betrayal and that's why she has shared it with your kids and her FOO.

It took a long time for my mother to forgive me. I can remember silent treatment lasting for days. When she was angry about something where she felt exposed or betrayed, it took a very long time for her to come back to being a reasonable person. I hope your wife has a shorter re-set point.

[Verbena]

I'd like to second the motion that you have a talk with CPS.  This is abusive behavior toward children.  Play your recording of her raging against the shut door and telling your 3 and 5-year old that they needed to witness this incident.  Tell them she asked your fifteen-year old to "testify" against you the night they all tried to keep you from sleeping.  CPS already knows about her out-of-control whipping of the children incident, and they need to know about this other stuff.

I am so sorry you are going through this.  Your wife cares more about hurting you than she does her own children.  They are her pawns in this awful game she is playing. 

[formflier]

 

different states.

I am sure they could talk, but here is the thing.

If I were to go down that path I would want to figure out first if there is anything, by law, that CPS can do.

The last case was closed as "unfounded".

During the "investigation" period (whatever that is called) they offer services and advice, and do that the power to keep kids safe, but that is a temporary measure.

FF

[flourdust]

I've seen this kind of distorted thinking in my wife. She believes that her feelings about our altercations are so self-evidently factual that everyone else believes and supports her.

She'll complain to her FOO members about events, and even though her description of them is self-serving, they're still odd enough that her FOO can see that she's not making any sense and her actions were harmful.

She's occasionally threatened to raise her voice in a public setting and make a scene to "let everyone see how mean" I am to her. But a screaming, abuse-hurling woman doesn't exactly generate sympathy.

Your email reads to me as a description of really problematic behaviors on her part with you confused and reaching out for help. She may think this makes her look good to the people she is forwarding it to. It doesn't.

[Notwendy]

I can give you an example of the non-disclosure rule to an extreme.

When my father was ill, the medical staff assumed he was home with a traditional wife who was doing the things like cooking, laundry and so on.

I knew that this was not happening. I became concerned that when he was no longer able to do these things for himself, that he would need help. Not an unreasonable assumption for anyone who is elderly. But my parents had been invested in presenting my mother in a positive light.

Ordinarily, I would have not intervened, but I was concerned about his health, and so spilled the beans to his health care workers- who naturally then tried to help him.

I was naive to the dynamics and BPD. Mom found out. I may as well as had Persecutor on me in neon lights. Mom became victim. She rallied her FOO to her defense. Then painted me black to them and Dad. My father stepped in to protect her. I did all I could to repair this, I so wanted for us to be on good terms, but this was not to be possible. I couldn't speak to him alone. She listened in on every phone call.

The reason that I spoke up didn't seem to register- I was not trying to hurt, but to help-, and also the reason for your email- to get help may not have registered with your wife, as I can imagine that it was very triggering to her and that's all she saw in the moment.

[Sunfl0wer]

NW,

That is so sad. 

As much as I may fantasize about someone in my childhood having provided some type of validating environment vs following a script lead by the pwPD, the reality is that it is not about one person or one person's actions.  It is a whole family systems dynamic.  When that dynamic is disrupted, the system does what it does to protect and 're stabilize' it to what it feels is stable to it.

The reality of situations and how they may play out is certainly different than my ideals.

This is sad, and hard for me to wrap my head around some.

To try to protect someone and take that risk... .Is extremely admirable. 

The reality of outcome is so sad to me... .but one I have seen again and again around me.   I like to 'forget' it exists, but it is there.  I wish often to cling to my 'ideal reality' where the person who had courage to step up and make a change, actually makes some sliver of an impact.

_{(This is the real fear I had as a child why I never told.  Thank you for sharing.  I just now forgave my child self for something atm.)}

[HurtinNW]

FF, I'll add my experiences of having a mother who did these kinds of things.

As I've mentioned, my mother was a master at playing the victim. Her children were pawns in this game. I know she loved us, in her own way. But she was a person filled with deep self-loathing, shame and anger. She was also capable of cruelty.

I imagine for your wife you email was intensely shaming... .having her dirty laundry aired to others. I'm not saying that is the emotionally healthy response, but she probably read it as an attack and effort to shame/expose her. That is how my mother would have reacted. She hated the idea of anyone "telling" on her, and would go out of her way to punish them. Of course she saw this as "defending" herself, because she was always the victim.

When I was growing up my mom constantly did the sort of triangulating tactics with us kids that your wife is doing. She was either making a case against one of us to the others, or against whatever creepy boyfriend she had at the time. As much as I think I would have also loved if someone had supported me dealing with this, I am not sure how much it would have helped. During the times I was painted white I would have resisted hearing it. During the times I was painted black I wanted her forgiveness. Children love their mothers. They will do anything to be in their good graces.

Here's the food for thought I want to give you: My surviving siblings completely bought into my mother's triangulation. Oddly enough, I think it was easier on me, the black sheep, to get healthy. During the years my mother would disown me I had therapy, and created my own healthy family. I have brothers she painted white all the time, made them feel they were rescuing her, and she lavished them with love. That's intoxicating for kids. To this day these siblings will not speak to me. I'm sure they are repeating the cycle in their own families.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, or alarm you. I just want to caution that while there may be things you can do to mitigate the damage, you have to walk a fine line and as sunflower says, you cannot change an ongoing family dynamic all by yourself.

One of the key aspects of my mother's triangulation was any response just became one more aspect of the triangulation. If anyone "stood up" to my mother she just escalated the triangulation. That was the way she kept control and power over her children even when they became adults. She was incredibly subtle and effective at it. I found out later I was indicted for things I had no idea I had done.

I'm giving you a big hug. 

[Notwendy]

Yes, it was sad for me when my father was sick. I was clueless about the dynamics between them. As HurtinNW said about her mother, my mother would also act in a punitive way towards anyone who dared reveal that there were issues, that she was anything but a normal wonderful mother.

But in her world, it wasn't a punishment, but an act of projection of the intensity of the shame this triggers in her. I have said before that she is on the severe end of the spectrum. For FF's wife to raise 8 kids and hold a job, to me would indicate that she is milder than my mother, for whom BPD makes it hard for her to function.

I have watched my mother dissasociate when triggered, and it appears like something has taken hold of her, and this pain in her seems to erupt like a volcano. It feels as if she is punishing us, but I think it is out of her control at this point.

I think she also probably feels shame at these episodes when we were kids, and that is likely the reason we were not allowed to mention it.

I think that email triggered a lot of pain in FF's wife.

[Sunfl0wer]

As much as I may fantasize about someone in my childhood having provided some type of validating environment vs following a script lead by the pwPD, the reality is that it is not about one person or one person's actions.  It is a whole family systems dynamic.  When that dynamic is disrupted, the system does what it does to protect and 're stabilize' it to what it feels is stable to it.

However, to add to my own words... .

There was an incident of a cousin who consistently stood up to mom.  He took a beating and took it with a look of defiance.  His face was unmoved, unbreakable.  He did not hit back, did not run, but his stance communicated something to me... .  As he stood there strong, the lashes appeared to bounce off his body and instead of his body yielding to pain, my mom became yielding as she got increasingly frustrated.  She cursed, left the room to take a break as her own hands were tiring.  She left to retrieve another stronger object to beat him, yet the cousin remained the same, unmoved.  I was in shock.  I could not believe anyone could take a beating without falling to pieces.  I could not believe mom had a breaking point.  She gave up on the beating, cursed, and shoo'd him away.  In my eyes, this was magnificent to witness.

It gave me hope to see another way.  I had never seen anyone not just give in to the script.  (The beating was supposed to stop when we were collapsed on the floor into blubbering submission) Seeing this possibility gave me hope.  I was maybe 7, and knew at the time I was simply too little to do as my cousin did yet.  Yet I held on to the hope of one day not crushing under her hands.  This image had comforted me and gave me hope through some very difficult times.  I generalized the idea of this beating into withstanding other things going on in my family and held onto the idea of nit needing to go with the flow... .when the right time came for me.

So while seeing my cousin veer away from accepting the usual script did not change the whole dynamic... .it did create a long lasting impression on me and meant more than anyone there would ever know.  At least I knew another reality existed.  At least I knew that one small person could make a change for themself.  It is only recently, over 30 yrs later, that I have told my anyone, and I told my cousin the impact of that moment that he himself does not even recall.  I expressed my deep gratitude for what others saw as rebellion... .I always admired.

[formflier]

My wife says that I am off base for blaming her (her exact words) for the sleep deprivation stuff.

Her view, the script that she and her family are now working from is that we moved up here and "I (ff) started a bunch of crap that didn't need to be started, " 

Yes, her exact words from about 15-20 minutes ago.

It's interesting about the story about the cousin.  I have no interest in convincing my wife or anyone else that they are wrong, I also have no interest in moving my point of view or my feelings about the incidents.

This morning my wife said to me that "Your feelings are way off base here, you need to fix that, "  I didn't react or anything.  Said I understood her point of view and hoped she understood mine.  Left it at that.

I'll fill in more details on V day and how we got to this point, later today sometime.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

 (I don't always convey my point... .oops)

My point in sharing that story is that... .

We can look at our situations and make a decision based on how we ideally want a situation to turn out... .and do what we feel 'the right thing is' regardless.  (... .Or other choices of behaving)

We can also consider the whole family systems dynamic and it can cause us to think less about a single action and its impact and more about how our action will affect the entire dynamic.  Now considering this can actually change our choice to only act when we feel it may impact the entire system, (or not) but defer from acting when it will not.

So my story was to kinda integrate the differing perspectives and point out value in considering both the family systems dynamic while not discarding the value of acting as an individual and upholding individual values.

People are always watching us weather we know it or not.  Our behavior communicates things we may be unaware of.

(I am not sure that point got across originally)

[formflier]

Yep, I didn't get the message as clearly as you just stated it, but it was there.

Here is my perspective.  I knew that moving close to her FOO would be interesting. 

I like TV and movies, and I knew they were a bit like the Borg, they assimilate people into a group think and then randomly people get blackened and tossed out, to be turned white and brought back later, usually as someone else is tossed out.

Anyone here want to take bets on their chances of assimilating me?   

Now, I don't want to persecute them, "go after them" or any of that.  I'm also not going to turn of my "light" that shines on unhealthy and healthy behavior that is going on around me (certainly within my boundaries)

From a family systems point of view, the Borg is looking at a new species that is resisting being assimilated, and they have to figure out if they are going to double down their efforts or do they go assimilate someone else or turn on each other.

They know enough about me to know that I might be Picard and be able to pierce their shields.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

From a family systems point of view, the Borg is looking at a new species that is resisting being assimilated, and they have to figure out if they are going to double down their efforts or do they go assimilate someone else or turn on each other.

I think a lot of black/white thinking is also them/us thinking.  PwBPD either think you are on their side or against them.

Would welcoming one or two members of 'her side' help the whole dynamic?  Could you find an odd mutual interest with someone to share from her family.  Either in your home, on their turf, or neutral turf.  Maybe a cousin wants to learn a skill you can share?  That cousin would rely on you and you two could bond over that one aspect even if you generally don't align yourself with the same values of that person.  It could stir up their dark FF beliefs that may be growing like mushrooms under a dark musty shady tree.  Maybe it can be a little light on things.

Edit: they are likely talking trash behind your back... .if you can give them reasons to defend you... .undeniable value that FFw cannot lie about... .maybe useful

[Notwendy]

I think those of us who grew up with mothers with BPD in dysfunctional family systems are telling their point of view from the childrens' perspective.

FF, your relationship with your wife, like most relationships, has its ups and downs. One of them, as in romantic relationships, is your good times in the hot tub. When these happen, it seems the relationship is pretty good. That's understandable. It is an important part of a marriage.

However, from the child's point of view- thankfully, a child is not involved in this benefit and should not know when and what a parent is doing. So they don't see this hot make up sex part, and so are still effected by these argumentative times.

My mother in her younger days was, a knock out beauty. As the black child, I didn't benefit from that.  Also, I would watch these arguments between them and the next day, they would act as if nothing happened. Like we were supposed to forget they didn't happen and we were not allowed to ask. So we would at one point, be afraid mom and dad would divorce and then the next thing wonder if it even happened.

FF, your relationship with your wife may fluctuate from hot to cold, but while the hot times are good ofr you, the kids can see it in a different way.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if it is possible ( or even desirable ) to be assimilated into some families. In fact, I think the tactic of being exclusive- similar to the "cool" clique in high school could be part of that.

My mother's FOO is like that. To be assimilated into their family requires to be just like them, enmeshed in their ideas. They strictly maintain that my mother is fine, because she is "one of them" .

Growing up, we were treated as "not one of them" but more like their charity case " we will include you in this activity because of your mother", but we were aware that they didn't consider us to be in their family.  

One can not be an exclusive group without excluding someone.

[Sunfl0wer]

NW,

I hear what you are saying regards to assimilation.

Maybe assimilation is not helpful but just some positive connection that has a compartmentalized relationship.

Example: We had a 'family friend' (neighbor) who was handy and came by just to fix things out of sense of charity and got paid in the form of beers.  He did not engage or participate in any family stuff really.  We did give him an x-mas gift and he gave us one as well.  But that is where the relationship began and ended.  He'd chit chat some during drinking a beer... .and be social for a small bit.  He just took it upon himself to ask if we were ok if power outage, weather issues, etc.  The nature of his involvement was a friendly charitable fix it man.  Even if someone had something bad to say about him... .he was always painted white in the end because we needed him.  To paint him black would have made mom really loose something of great value.  He had a harmless, jovial, attitude and laughed off most anything.  He was hard to target even if one tried!

So even if no one liked his wife and kids, they were never painted black, because by extension, this would not suit the needs of mom.

I just wonder if connecting and finding some way to add value to a key player of FfWworld would help shift the dynamic of the groups attitude?

[formflier]

 

What would have happened if another fix it man showed up or was an option?

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I tried assimilating, but BPD's family are just to tight knit, and frankly, disordered. If you don't grown up amongst that, and can see a lot of it for what it is, and don't just "go along", you truly are viewed as "against them", or "trouble". That family bands together against you. I just witnessed that at the last family get together. Since SIL has gotten mad at me(or whatever her problem now is), my other SIL, and BPDh's daughter are even cooler towards me. The men in the family don't seem to get that way to that degree.

I come from a family that sounds a lot like Formfliers, so these type dynamics are just weird to to me.

And yeah, I've noticed in BPDh's kids especially, they won't paint someone black if they are able to "use" them. Once they no longer have need of the person though, or find another source, those people are easily devalued.

[Sunfl0wer]

What would have happened if another fix it man showed up or was an option?

FF

Humm, good question.

Scott the neighbor fix it guy was not replaceable.  No cousin/family or handyman could get there faster than Scott nor could they charge less.  Scott really did not expect a thing for his services other than a few beers... .and was always jovial.  (Unlike FF) Scott also was not dating or married to anyone in the family.

Mom was the matriarch of the family, she had the power over all extended persons, or else they were cut off.  Men were almost always on a pedestal, women viewed inferior.  Except mom of course placed herself high, And dad was painted black.  (Her first husband painted all white as he died from a war related injury.  She degraded dad and admitted she married him so she wouldn't be a single widowed mom)

So if an all white (meaning painted white) male cousin was dating a gal, she was usually painted white by proxy of the male that was family.  Yet, when they broke up or were fighting with their partner, mom always sided with the male family member.  Even if he was rude or abusive, she was stupid for allowing that, her fault, not his.

Often if a painted black female was dating, then also, by proxy her date was painted black too.  If her partner showed an independent relationship with the family that was positive, he could get painted white.  If she was fighting with her SO, then how her partner was painted varied, it could go either way... .depending on his value to the family system.

Now me, I really was not painted either black or white.  I call myself the invisible one.  I was not really worthy of gossiping about too much.  I mostly laid low.  White status was not available to me, only black... .yet I didn't often do much to be hated, so I was just invisible.  So when I was dating a guy that was a cheater, who threw his money around at people freely, they loved him and urged me to marry him.  I broke up with him for the cheating.  The guy was still painted white while I was still invisible.  When I explained his cheating I was told that it was no big deal and I should focus on what a provider he would be to me and my son and suck up the rest.

So it seems to me that anyone who can bring value to the key players of the family, be jovial and expect nothing in return could get painted white... .as long as the family member they are dating is not a pure white shade.

Well... .at least that is how my family system functioned.  I am not sure if yours is similar.

There was a painted white male who dated then broke up with a gal.  The gal was initially painted white for her selfless service to the family.  However, she got painted black after she did favors for dad and was thoughtful to him.

Now... .that is a long story for a thread not mine.

I wonder if the dynamics being explained help anything?

I guess the impact your behavior has on the family system is also dependent on your wife's color status in the family.  I think it is possible in such a system for a SO to gain favor... .I just don't know if it translates to yours... .I also don't know if it is in line with your values to engage in a way to gain favor.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd like to second the motion that you have a talk with CPS.  This is abusive behavior toward children.  Play your recording of her raging against the shut door and telling your 3 and 5-year old that they needed to witness this incident.  Tell them she asked your fifteen-year old to "testify" against you the night they all tried to keep you from sleeping.  CPS already knows about her out-of-control whipping of the children incident, and they need to know about this other stuff.

I disagree about "talking" to CPS. The way CPS works is that if they get a report, they have to investigate, and it becomes a huge thing. (Like the last one) Opening that can of worms only makes sense in two ways:

1. As an emergency, where calling 911 may well be more appropriate. (Like when she was literally beating kids and you did involve them last time)

2. As part of your strategy for filing for divorce, coordinated with the efforts you make with your divorce attorney, with the idea that this will improve your chances for getting a decent arrangement, despite all the chaos, drama, etc. that is going to come along with it.

Thus far, it hasn't risen to the level that justifies either of those situations... .at least from what you've said of your values and the situation.

And given how much she felt hurt, attacked, etc. by the last one, I can't see it as a good idea under lesser circumstances.

My wife says that I am off base for blaming her (her exact words) for the sleep deprivation stuff.

[... .]

This morning my wife said to me that "Your feelings are way off base here, you need to fix that... "

I think both of these are areas where you should be more assertive with your boundaries. Take a two-part stance on this, be firm, be consistent.

1. You do not agree. [Because it is completely invalid, but telling her why will do no good, so don't]

2. You are not discussing it with her now. [Because she's in a blaming you state, not a listening to you state, the temperature is too high for anything good to happen... .and telling her that will do no good either.]

Just stick to those two answers, no matter how many circles she makes... .until either A: she accepts that this is what you will do, no matter how unfair/unjustified/off base you are, OR B: she becomes abusive enough that you have to remove yourself from her presence.

[empath]

The way CPS works is that if they get a report, they have to investigate, and it becomes a huge thing. (Like the last one)

From my experience, they do sort of a triage thing where they assess the risk to the child involved in the case of an actual 'report'. I have also talked with them anonymously about a situation that was going on in my home, just to find out what their take was on it. They have their own criteria about what would warrant an investigation in the case of a report. One can talk with them without making a report, especially if one speaks in generalities rather than specifics.