Should I tell my BPD husband about a message from his BPD daughter

[ColdEthyl]

Hello everyone My husband's daughter sent me a FB request last week, and they haven't spoken in about 3 years. The last time, she called and they cried, talked about getting together, but slowly and surely she stopped answering texts and when she would answer, they were drunk texts. Eventually, she stopped all together. This has been her pattern of behavior to not just my husband, but the rest of his family, as well.

Their relationship is bad, and has been since she was a teen. He did a lot of things wrong, and she did a lot of things wrong. However, since we have been together for about 6 years, I've seen him try to reconnect with her 3 different times with the same results. I've talked to her grandmother who has tried and been shut out.

When she sent the FB request, I spoke to him about it and asked him what he would like. He said to send her his phone number and she can call him any time day or night. So, that's what I did.

She replied to me today, blaming everyone under the sun for the bad relationship. She said everyone on his side of the family abandoned her (not true, they've tried very hard to contact her only to be faded), that he could have called her anytime (she's had his number too), that she hasn't talked to him in 7 years (not true) and she even blamed me asking me why I never tried to get a hold of her (this is my first ever contact with her) and that her dad replaced her with his new family (us)

I replied to her that the person that needs to hear these things is the person I gave her the number to. That was my only reply. I do not know if she has BPD, but based on her behaviors, I would say she does. I know she's lying for half of what she said.

I'm thinking I should just not even tell him about this message. Nothing will come out of it. If she wants to call him she can. It's hard for me to keep things from my husband but I cannot see any good coming out of this. He's already hurt, he already beat himself up for the mistakes he made, and he's beat his head against this wall over and over and over. I know it will cause him great pain.

Is this the right move?

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[sweetheart]

Hi ColdEthyl it's complicated because for me not telling your husband gets you possibly caught up in some FOG around this, what do you think?

I do understand your rationale for not telling him, and for me it would also be important to be as open and transparent around this issue as I could. I think it has the possibility to come back and bite you on the butt hard in the future if you choose to keep it from him.

I wonder too if it might be possible for you both to come to a decision together about how to treat his daughters FB request. 

[ColdEthyl]

It's difficult to tell. He doesn't talk to his mother... .much like his daughter doesn't talk to anyone, but I do. He told me on several occasions he's rather me NOT tell him when I talk to his mother, because it makes him feel like a bad son since I talk to her and he does not.

So, with that thought in mind, I wonder if that BPD logic applies here. I dislike keeping things from my husband, but I am willing to do that if that's the best move.

[sweetheart]

I remember you saying about him asking you not to tell you about his mum, that you have an ongoing relationship with her that he is not involved in. I get this, although he does kind of know. It seems to me this is more like a tacit agreement you have around this.

What do you think the outcome will be if you do tell him about this situation, how might it play out over short and long term ?

What are you ultimately protecting him from over this situation if you choose not to tell him and what is the worst case scenario if you do?

[ColdEthyl]

He's already so hurt from trying to reach out to her and getting smacked down. This whole week he's been semi on edge waiting to hear from her. If I tell him this is the message he got... .it would spiral him down further into depression and back into a cycle of guilt, anger, etc etc

If I don't tell him, and she doesn't call... .it will still hurt but not as badly as what she said. She sent the friends' request, only to act like we went it to her and go on a tear.

His reaction to it will be just as juvenile and BPD filled as hers. He will go off on her for talking to me that way, and they will have solved nothing.

[Grey Kitty]

You can't make either your H or his daughter behave well toward each other, as you well know.

If they could just talk to each other and get over things you wouldn't need to be in the middle.

But they can't, and if you are in the middle, you won't make things better anyway. All you can do is get into two messed up dialogs, one with her and one with him. 

My suggestion is to create the relationship you want with your H's daughter, without involving him... .and your decision that you don't want to be particularly close to somebody who throws that sort of manipulative garbage at you looks pretty sound in my book!

OTOH, his mother is a more reasonable person, and you get more out of having a relationship with her... .

[formflier]

Boy, my first reaction is to NOT tell him. 

Not out of FOG, but out of reality that playing messenger between two disordered people is not a good idea.  It seems simple to just pass a number, it's never simple.

I'm thinking reply on FB that she is welcome to write him a letter, perhaps provide an address,

If you don't want her to know a physical address, think about that,

Anyway, I'm thinking you are asking the wrong question.

Should I be a messenger for a disordered person, ?

What good can come of this? 

What good has come of this in the past?

FF

[sweetheart]

I was thinking about the dilemma you posed and Karpman  came to mind.

I had a read and I wonder if this link might be useful in just checking out where you are all at in this dynamic https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[ColdEthyl]

You can't make either your H or his daughter behave well toward each other, as you well know.

If they could just talk to each other and get over things you wouldn't need to be in the middle.

But they can't, and if you are in the middle, you won't make things better anyway. All you can do is get into two messed up dialogs, one with her and one with him. 

My suggestion is to create the relationship you want with your H's daughter, without involving him... .and your decision that you don't want to be particularly close to somebody who throws that sort of manipulative garbage at you looks pretty sound in my book!

OTOH, his mother is a more reasonable person, and you get more out of having a relationship with her... .

That's my thing. I don't really want to get in the middle, and after speaking to his mom about this yesterday, his daughter doesn't sound like a person I want to know or have my children around. He has said as much in the past, but since I didn't know her, I reserved judgement. Her message to me confirmed what I was told.

"Boy... .my first reaction is to NOT tell him. 

Not out of FOG... .but out of reality that playing messenger between two disordered people is not a good idea.  It seems simple to just pass a number... .it's never simple.

I'm thinking reply on FB that she is welcome to write him a letter, perhaps provide an address... ."

Right, it's not FOG issue for me. She sent me the friends request (husband doesn't use FB), and I asked him what he wanted done with the situation. He wanted her to have his number, which I gave her. Her message was the reply to giving her the phone number.

She can contact him just as easily as he can her. The ball is in her court. She has the contact info. He does not have her phone number. What I told her was the person who needed to hear this was the person whose number she has.

As of yet, no reply. I do not expect one. I expect at some point she might drunk text her father. That's the best we have gotten from her.

[ColdEthyl]

I was thinking about the dilemma you posed and Karpman  came to mind.

I had a read and I wonder if this link might be useful in just checking out where you are all at in this dynamic https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

I understand what you are saying here, but again I'm not trying to "rescue" anyone in this situation. I'm simply asking if telling him or not is the way to go. I don't feel a need to interject myself in this situation. She contacted us, I let him decide the course of action, and her reply is the only thing I question. I don't feel it's worth bringing up to him, but my dislike for lying/keeping things from my husband gives me pause.

[Grey Kitty]

Since you are the facebook presence for the marriage, and this is his daughter, telling him she was in contact and exchanging phone numbers is appropriate.

Relaying emotional garbage is just a bad idea. You have no obligation to do that. It isn't like this would be news to him anyway--I'm sure he's heard some of this crap from her before.

If she somehow changes her behavior and starts a relationship with you, like your H's mother has, I think it would be reasonable (eventually) to tell him that you are in contact with her in a more real way. Still not to share everything you communicate with her.

As it is, he knows you are FB friends. Nothing more that he needs to know has happened.

[formflier]

 

There is no way to tell him without it getting weird.

If you tell her to contact him directly (through whatever method) and then you "mention" to him she has been in contact, he will likely want you to message her or be involved.

You will have to tell him no (or you should), which puts up extra stuff in your r/s that you don't need.

I think you have the idea, it's never simple.

I'm a words guy, don't over think this.  She DID NOT contact "us" on facebook.  She contacted you.  If your hubby chooses to not be on FB, you should not let him hold you responsible for informing him of things which he has chosen to not be aware of.

OK, yeah, chip on my shoulder here.  I am not on FB.  I'm sure I miss out on some stuff there, but that is my choice.  

I didn't even think about karpman for this.  It is a good thought.  You have a choice about playing a healthy or unhealthy role.  You also have a choice to direct the daughter in a way that has you stepping out of the triangle.

FF

[ColdEthyl]

Thanks, guys. I guess I just needed affirmation that not telling him was the best course. It goes against my moral stance on not lying to my husband, but as well all know a marriage to a pwBPD breaks molds.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm, normally a VERY truthful person, but I've come to understand reasons for being silent at times like this. It may not feel natural, but it also doesn't feel deceptive to me when I do it... .

First off, it really isn't his business what she says to you about him***. Yes it involves him, but I fail to see where he has a right to know about it. Any more than he has a right to know you are posting about him here. This is a privacy issue, not a secret you are withholding that is harming him.

*** When I say it isn't his business, I say that based on this being a known strained/messed up/NC relationship between them. If his daughter was always friendly to his face, and you knew that something else was going on behind, that is a different situation. Depends on a lot of specifics whether telling him anything would be right or not, but it would be different.

If he were to ask whether his daughter said anything, or what she said, I suggest being honest, but kinda like in a courtroom deposition, not volunteering any extra details.

":)id she say anything?"

"Yes, we chatted a bit." (True, but not volunteer more)

"What did she say?"

"Not too much, most of it was angry." or "It sounded like rehashing old stuff that would hurt to hear again."

(Letting him know that it wasn't pleasant, and giving him a chance to not ask for hurtful details)

"Really, what did she say?"

"If I tell you, you're going to be hurt, so I'm going to make you ask one more time if you really want the details."

(If he asks a third time, tell him, or show him the chat... .)

I think the key is that you are trying to protect your husband from hearing something hurtful that he doesn't need to deal with anyway. There is no deception in this motivation, only kindness.

[ColdEthyl]

I'm, normally a VERY truthful person, but I've come to understand reasons for being silent at times like this. It may not feel natural, but it also doesn't feel deceptive to me when I do it... .

First off, it really isn't his business what she says to you about him***. Yes it involves him, but I fail to see where he has a right to know about it. Any more than he has a right to know you are posting about him here. This is a privacy issue, not a secret you are withholding that is harming him.

*** When I say it isn't his business, I say that based on this being a known strained/messed up/NC relationship between them. If his daughter was always friendly to his face, and you knew that something else was going on behind, that is a different situation. Depends on a lot of specifics whether telling him anything would be right or not, but it would be different.

If he were to ask whether his daughter said anything, or what she said, I suggest being honest, but kinda like in a courtroom deposition, not volunteering any extra details.

":)id she say anything?"

"Yes, we chatted a bit." (True, but not volunteer more)

"What did she say?"

"Not too much, most of it was angry." or "It sounded like rehashing old stuff that would hurt to hear again."

(Letting him know that it wasn't pleasant, and giving him a chance to not ask for hurtful details)

"Really, what did she say?"

"If I tell you, you're going to be hurt, so I'm going to make you ask one more time if you really want the details."

(If he asks a third time, tell him, or show him the chat... .)

I think the key is that you are trying to protect your husband from hearing something hurtful that he doesn't need to deal with anyway. There is no deception in this motivation, only kindness.

Yes and if he directly asks me if she said anything, I will tell him in the matter you suggested. That was what I was thinking. I actually feel better about it now that you put it that way

[formflier]

ColdEthyl,

You seem like me, I try to not only answer a question but think about what else a person "should" know.  Basically to have integrity when giving an answer, vice "technical " truthfulness. 

Such as "did my daughter call you?"  And you say no, knowing full well that he is asking about "communication" and not just a phone call.

Good on you for thinking this way.  I teach my kids this.  Solid values.

Please take nothing in my answer to turn you from that,

Except,  

When dealing with a disordered person.

Like it or not you are the "adult" in the situation and have to make a judgment. 

What I have done in some cases is just say "I'm not comfortable discussing that, " vice trying to "lie" and say I don't know anything about that.


FF

[ColdEthyl]

ColdEthyl,

You seem like me... .I try to not only answer a question but think about what else a person "should" know.  Basically to have integrity when giving an answer, vice "technical " truthfulness. 

Such as "did my daughter call you?"  And you say no... .knowing full well that he is asking about "communication" and not just a phone call.

Good on you for thinking this way.  I teach my kids this.  Solid values.

Please take nothing in my answer to turn you from that... .

Except... . 

When dealing with a disordered person.

Like it or not you are the "adult" in the situation and have to make a judgment. 

What I have done in some cases is just say "I'm not comfortable discussing that... " vice trying to "lie" and say I don't know anything about that.


FF

*sighs* I know it. I know that I have to make tactical decisions based on the fact that he's disordered. I guess it's trying to get over that mental block of  what I have held as 'ideal' in my head for so long.

If he asks, I will probably at first state that I did from her, but it wasn't worth repeating. If he probes further than that, I'll say something along the lines of well, it's nothing we haven't already heard before. If he pushes, then I will state it will be painful to hear, or "I'm not comfortable talking about that"

To be honest, I'm sure he won't flat out ask me, because he really doesn't want to know.

[Grey Kitty]

You seem like me... .I try to not only answer a question but think about what else a person "should" know.  Basically to have integrity when giving an answer, vice "technical " truthfulness. 

Such as "did my daughter call you?"  And you say no... .knowing full well that he is asking about "communication" and not just a phone call.

*sighs* I know it. I know that I have to make tactical decisions based on the fact that he's disordered. I guess it's trying to get over that mental block of  what I have held as 'ideal' in my head for so long.

I don't think this is a case of special treatment for the disordered. I think this is a case of some subtle aspects of being truthful.

":)id my daughter call?"

"no." (ignoring the FB chat you had with her)

That is deceptive, even though it gets out of being a lie because of the technicality. I'm not recommending deception, and almost never will. (Even with a disordered person) (Except for "does this dress make my butt look big?" Deception is probably OK there!)

In nearly all cases, choosing not to mention something isn't deceptive. You have no particular reason you should tell your H about this chat with his daughter. You wouldn't tell your dentist about this chat either, and you wouldn't even feel conflicted or guilty--it really isn't your dentist's business at all, and you know it.

Normally you choose to tell people things that are safe for you to share with them, and safe for them to hear. This is where a disordered person gets special consideration--both versions of safety are reduced.

(Of course there are things which aren't safe, but are their business so you have to talk about. Those conversations are always hard.)

[ColdEthyl]

Yeah... .he's never asked, so I haven't said anything. He knows. He knows her, and knows this would happen.

[formflier]

 

Solid work.  Working through this issue, even though he never asked, hopefully strengthened your mental boundaries and lessons learned here can be applied to future situations.

What was the big lesson you learned in this thread?

FF

[ColdEthyl]

Solid work.  Working through this issue... even though he never asked... .hopefully strengthened your mental boundaries and lessons learned here can be applied to future situations.

What was the big lesson you learned in this thread?

FF

Honestly, the biggest lesson I've learned is I don't have to tell him everything. It's weird... .not being able to share my entire life or experiences with him, but there are just things he can and cannot do or handle.

[formflier]

 

That's what I figured you would say. 

I feel/felt same way.  Very frustrating to "censor yourself". 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

This is bringing up something I read recently... .it came from Buddhist practice, but I think it applies anyhow. There is a Christian commandment "Thou shalt not lie." The semi-equivalent Buddhist precept reads "I undertake to abstain from wrong speech: telling lies, deceiving others, manipulating others, using hurtful words."

I ran into a discussion about this recently, and it was centered around two questions before you say something.

"Is what I'm about to say true?"

"Is what I'm about to say harmful?"

The principle there is that you should not say something unless it meets BOTH criteria.

That a thing is true does not justify repeating it if it is harmful... .and that is the exact situation if you were to repeat or relay the nasty things your H's daughter said in FB chat.

There is a third question in there, too... .

"Is the person hearing this going to be happy or unhappy about it?"

The discussion indicated that this question doesn't change whether you should speak or not.

Sometimes people need to know things which will upset them.

Other times, people are happy to be deceived.

Applying that to a pwBPD, whether he will probably dysregulate upon hearing it isn't the same question as to whether telling him this is harmful or not.

For me, this way of thinking about things goes a long way toward finding a good moral basis for evading the direct question (if not outright lying) ":)oes this dress make my butt look big?"

[Fian]

Side topic, but the Bible does not say "Thou shalt not lie."  It says "Thou shalt not bear false witness."  There are other verses that condemn a lying tongue.  Anyway, the reason why I bring it up is there seems to be some nuance when it comes to lying in the Bible since a direct prohibition does not exist.  While generally, lying is wrong, if a Nazi shows up at your house and asks if there are Jews inside (so that they can kill them), lying in that situation may not be wrong.

My personal take is that remaining silent is not lying.  In the above situation, it doesn't sound like his daughter said anything worth repeating anyway.  I think Grey Kitty does give a good example of how to approach the conversation if he asks.

[ColdEthyl]

*nods* I'm still learning myself to not look at everything in black/white terms. I spend so much time thinking of things like a bean counter... .statistics... numbers... .patterns... .that something like this happens and I'm not sure how to handle the situation.

I'm certainly glad I never told him... .especially if her only motivation was to dump and bunch of anger and spite on him. He doesn't need it. Her venom doesn't bother me... .I don't know her. It would hurt him.

[an0ught]

Did she contact you or "us". If it is the former you may choose not to relay. If it was the latter it is more difficult to justify. And if it is unclear maybe you could clearify and then maybe explicitly refuse the role to play pigeon.

[ColdEthyl]

My husband doesn't have Facebook, just I do. So... .she contacted "me". I did tell him about the initial contact because I wanted to respect his feelings on that and respond accordingly, which I did.

It's of no matter now, anyways. She's never called nor answered me. She came in, trashed the place, and left so to speak. I'm glad he didn't see the mess.

[ColdEthyl]

Well, I've stepped in it now.

Last week, I got a message from my brother in law that H's daughter is asking him for her dad's CDIB card (He's Native American, she needs it to get her own for health insurance)

At first, I wanted to tell him that she has his number and she can call, but BIL is a super quiet, sweet guy and I didn't want to put him in a rough spot. I have my H's card, so I told BIL I will send him a copy of it. I did, and I didn't tell my H.

Well today, my sister in law has now been contacted by H's exwife. She said they couldn't read the number, and they want H to call them.

Long story short, she pretty much did the same toxic mess that H's daughter did, and SIL was not surprised. This woman has serious issues. She also was trying to play victim, told SIL she was surprised to learn she had a 4th child, even though they have been on FB for years and she even met the child at a funeral. (Just an example of how the lies keep coming, and daughter is following mom's footsteps)

So now, I have Ex wife's number. I know H won't call her... .he has no reason to. I could still just never tell him about any of this, but I think now I should. I shouldn't have given BIL a copy of his card without him knowing. I'm going to have to fess up about that. I've felt bad this past week but I didn't want him to have to deal with these crazy people.

I don't even know how to handle this. Should I just go home and start with something like... .I need to ask for your forgiveness and then tell him everything? Or tell him nothing?

Keep in mind all of this crap... .I gave DIL the phone number. She could call at ANY TIME.

[Grey Kitty]

Ugh.

How about being honest with your H, with the goal of letting him know what sort of crap is flying while giving him as much of an option as you can to avoid involvement, or even stick his head in the sand if he wants to?

I've been communicating with BIL about D needing your CDIB card. I was trying to handle it without bothering you, and I now realize I shouldn't have. I'm very sorry.

You know how BIL, SIL, exW, and D [did I leave anybody out?   ] create drama... .and they are. You might get a call from DIL. Again, I'm so sorry for the role I played in this mess. I'll do what I can to clean things up, and tell you all you want to know about it.

You did this to protect your H from dealing with his toxic family. That is a good motivation... .but it was also a bad idea as you're now realizing. Try not to JADE at your H when you come clean.

There is also the option of staying silent and hoping it doesn't fly back and hit your H in the gut. I guess it still is possible. If you do pursue that option, I recommend not digging yourself in further--as in not doing or saying anything more that you would have to 'fess up to your H over.

[formflier]

 

Yeah, probably should let him know about the card, unless there was an understanding that you handle that. 

If there is no understanding between the two of you, that would be a good way to start the conversation. 

Keep it short say that you were handling something that you thought was simple and it started to get more complex.

You want to have some idea of how he would like this handled in the future (assuming YOU still want to be involved in this). 

If he starts with the "how could you" (I doubt he will, but you never know) simply say you were sorry for "not thinking things through" and look to end the conversation.

I'm assuming in all this that he has never asked you NOT to be involved.

FF