To leave or stay

[A C]

I have been in a relationship with a man with BPD traits or full blown – never diagnosed – for almost 18 years. We’ve never been exclusive, nor do we define ourselves in any conventional way as a couple.

We do love each other, but the relationship is very challenging. I first recognized his behavior as Borderline a number of years ago, based on some patterns I began to see and research. We didn’t see each other more than once a month or so, so I didn’t pursue my research.

About 5 years ago, following a 2nd hiatus of over a year, we began to see each other much more frequently and to acknowledge our feelings more openly to each other. We’d also laugh and say, ‘we have the oddest relationship’. Neither of us wanted to be exclusive or to live together. He also preferred to keep our relationship secret. I agreed except that I shared the truth with a few of my closer friends. He wasn’t thrilled, but he accepted my choice. He always has several women, some of them for many years, with whom he is involved. Often, they have tried to become the full-fledged gf – with a variety of disastrous results.

As we spent more time together, his issues began to assert themselves more.

Without fully realizing it, I started to deal with his anger and his splitting in fairly constructive ways that were in line with recommended ways based on some of the articles I’ve recently read on this site.

One issue that made me a bit crazy was that whenever we fought, he’d threaten to leave me. For too long, I’d just say something useless like – ‘fine – go –no one is keeping you here.’ Sometimes we would take breaks of a few days to a few weeks. He would always come back. Occasionally, I’d be the one to ‘make up’.

About 2 years ago, I decided I was fed up with the back and forth and I told him that I had chosen to make a commitment to stay in the relationship. If he threatened, usually saying “I don’t need you”, I would respond with a version of, “I understand – but I have chosen to keep you in my life and I believe you want me in yours, so let’s start there.”

One of the hardest things for me was that my friends were, for the most part telling me the ‘you deserve more’ story every time we argued or he neglected or rejected me. His rants when he’s angry with me are ugly and full of rewritten history.

In the past year or so, we made a lot of progress in our interaction. I set clearer boundaries and he struggled to show up more for me.  I always take my self-esteem pulse [still pretty healthy], but wondering, too often, if I was letting him get away with too much, or, at others, feeling myself dropping down to his level of insult and attack.

A few months ago, we seemed not only to be arguing more, but once again, I was feeling neglected [except sexually]. He all but refuses to plan ahead to spend time with me and rarely wants to go out, which I’ve told him I need every 2 to 3 weeks. We speak on the phone almost daily - see each other once a week – sometimes twice for sex and talk. We share a lot.

Unfortunately, on those occasions that I ‘need’ him, when a friend is sick – that sort of thing – he and I invariably end up arguing before he decides to be supportive. I’m the first person he calls when he needs me, of course.

The straw that led me to do more research on BPD and brought me to this site came after several more hurtful arguments about my failures, demands etc. Then, a mini breakthrough when we spent some excellent quality time together. My birthday was coming up and he volunteered that he wanted to make a really special day for me. Sadly, he couldn’t or wouldn’t commit a time or day and when I began nudging him about it, I just felt awful that it seemed he didn’t want to do it – or that he couldn’t do it with enough heart or intention that it would have any meaning. I called him on it and we had one of our more hurtful text and phone fights.

I decided I was done – that I have to be done. I found this site and discovered the thread of ‘deciding to stay or go’ – and here I am – stuck.

He’s phoned, sent a couple of gentle, loving texts, which I have ignored. I know if I want him, we can be ‘back together’. I’m equally aware that I will always have to be the adult in the relationship and the one who exerts self control and works to remember, ‘it’s not really personal’ when he berates me. And that he will never be there for me in good or bad times, unless he feels it is his idea. Somehow, if I ask for support, it triggers him. He is terrified of abandonment – but also of someone controlling him. Perhaps I should add that one of the women he was very close to for a few years recently left him. In doing so, she was fairly brutal in her analysis of him. [I understand why, but I may have underestimated the impact on him].

My challenge is – I don’t know what to do. I miss him, I love him and I know, that to whatever depth he can, he loves me. I don’t want a boyfriend nor do I want an exclusive relationship. I also believe that he respects and likes me – again, given his limitations. I haven’t been with anyone else for quite awhile – totally my choice.

It takes all my self-control not to reach out to him or to answer the phone. It’s only been about 10 days, but I really do want to see him. I am determined, however, to take as much time as I need to figure out what is really best for me. How much can I handle and the big questions: Is he worth it? Are ‘we’ worth it?

With what I’ve learned recently, it seems most likely that there may be more, subtle, small improvements in his behavior, but that’s probably the most I can expect.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

Hello, and welcome!

Your understanding of him and how he is behaving (and how it impacts you!) sounds incredibly clear.

He is trying to balance on a knife's edge between his fear of abandonment and his fear of engulfment, and there really isn't much room there, so often he falls off on either side and lets that fear drive him to do something impulsive and crazy-making.

You describe yourself as having dealt with him with (relatively) good boundaries, and similar to our best practices here, and gotten better at that.

This may not feel like much relief to you, or a such a huge advantage... .because you ARE really hurting a lot... .but you are many steps ahead of people who were lost in this kind of relationship, had no idea what was happening to them, and had been through a lot more emotional abuse, and lost their self-esteem and self-confidence. You are in a (relative) position of strength here, and have a lot more options what you can do because of it.

It takes all my self-control not to reach out to him or to answer the phone. It’s only been about 10 days, but I really do want to see him. I am determined, however, to take as much time as I need to figure out what is really best for me. How much can I handle and the big questions: Is he worth it? Are ‘we’ worth it?

There is a time for big questions. This may or may not be it for you. (You are obviously conflicted)

I've personally found many times that if I can be happy with good answers to smaller questions, the big questions aren't as intractable.

You already know that there are limits on this relationship -- non-exclusive and non-domestic, and you both accept those.

These issues also set some limits on your relationship with him:

Unfortunately, on those occasions that I ‘need’ him, when a friend is sick – that sort of thing – he and I invariably end up arguing before he decides to be supportive. [... .] My birthday was coming up and he volunteered that he wanted to make a really special day for me. [And blew up/failed to do so]

These are things he cannot do gracefully, if he can do them at all. If you expect him to change them or NEED him to change in order to be in a relationship with him, it isn't going to go well.

There is a hard pill to swallow. You can do these things for him, but he will not be able to do them for you; you need to find other people to support you in ways he cannot. Fortunately, your life is independent enough that you have room in your life for other friends or even other lovers will.

I'm a bit of a hopeless romantic (coincidentally one who leans away from traditional monogamous relationships), so there is a big part of me that wants to see you give this guy another try... .and do it with your eyes open, and with good support in using the best practices to make this relationship work as well as one with a pwBPD like him can work.

I would love to be here supporting you as you reconnect, and try to work on yourself to make this go better.

That said, I'm here to support you whatever path you choose, or even if you cannot make up your mind. I've been in all three places before.

[A C]

Thank you Grey Kitty [if it's inappropriate to address you this way, please let me know.]

I really appreciate the time and thought you put into your response. So much of the work I've done on myself and my relationship has been solo or with a very few supportive friends who love me and 'hate' him. It's a relief just to be able to discuss my feelings with someone who understands my conflicted feelings.

Reading your letter, I realized that in many ways you told me what I want to hear. This is probably good and bad - . It is very helpful to understand and have some validation of my observations, emotions and behavior, as well as compassion about his behavior. Recently, just prior to finding this site, I expressed to a couple of friends that 'mentally ill folk deserve to be loved too' BUT - 'do I have to be the one to love such a difficult and sometimes mean man?' Foolish question no doubt ... .

Something I didn't quite see until this morning. For the past several weeks, everyone in my close circle is experiencing major challenges and traumas - parents dying, almost losing a newborn child, job loss and a diagnosis of cancer. No doubt this put more strain on my feelings of not being supported by my lover/friend.

I haven't figured out how to quote your letter ... .so - you wrote, "there is a big part of me that wants to see you give this guy another try... .and do it with your eyes open, and with good support in using the best practices to make this relationship work as well as one with a pwBPD like him can work.

I would love to be here supporting you as you reconnect, and try to work on yourself to make this go better."

My heart wants to continue with him - so please, could you advise me about those 'best practices' and what work on myself could make it better going forward.

Again - thank you

[Grey Kitty]

Thank you Grey Kitty [if it's inappropriate to address you this way, please let me know.]

As they say, call me anything you like... .just don't call me late for dinner  We're not very formal or fussy about such things 'round here.

I haven't figured out how to quote your letter

This is easy (to explain), so I'll get it out of the way first.

How to quote

So much of the work I've done on myself and my relationship has been solo or with a very few supportive friends who love me and 'hate' him. It's a relief just to be able to discuss my feelings with someone who understands my conflicted feelings.

Yes, this site is a total blessing--so much of what works best with people like your partner isn't intuitive or natural, and finding real-world people who understand anything about either BPD or more general mental illness and dysfunction is rare. Many members have nobody offline they can talk to who really gets what they are trying to do.

My heart wants to continue with him - so please, could you advise me about those 'best practices' and what work on myself could make it better going forward.

Knowing that you want to continue is a great starting point. And what you asked is huge, so I'll point you in a few starting directions. First and foremost, read any and all of "The Lessons" which are in the right sidebar any time you are here on the "Improving" board. ---->>>

I think I spent a day and a half reading them from one end to the other when I first found these forums years ago. You may not have the luxury of that much time... .

I'd suggest you start working on a good understanding of what you are signing up for when you try to do this better, and this is an excellent overview:

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

There are a lot of things you can work on, but there are two very basic ones that I always suggest starting with:

1. Stop Invalidating him.

2. End verbally/emotionally abusive conflicts immediately. (no matter how involved you were in starting them.)

This usually involves enforcing boundaries:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

That is a decent bit of reading to start you out, so I'm going to stop feeding you links now.

Let me recommend you join in with the community here, read and comment on topics that hit home for you, and most importantly, if you want to work this stuff out, get into specific details and ask for help or advice--I find that it is easier to learn the tools when you have a specific situation to apply them to.

[A C]

Thank you again. I had already read some of the material you suggested and I am beginning to read more. Yes, it may take awhile, but that's OK.

[A C]

Good Morning

I'm not sure I can do this - and, possibly, more importantly, I'm not sure why I am trying again.

Since your response, I've read quite a bit of the material you suggested. I certainly saw a lot through a different lens. I spent quite a bit of time looking at 'not invalidating' - definitely an area I can improve upon.

Then I started on the Boundaries question. I was already feeling that, so far the material seemed to tell me how I can make things easier? better? less confrontational for him. I also realize this isn't about changing him or getting him to do what I want or need. At the same time, I also know that unless our interaction improves in ways that are easier/better for me, as well as for him - then I won't be able to sustain within the relationship.

On Friday, I reached out to him and we began our 'making up dance' through text and phone. Several times over the weekend, I reminded myself that he doesn't know what I have been working on regarding our relationship and that he probably sees our most recent argument as more of the same, and, therefor, our restart as - well - not sure - but, possibly, just another unfortunate spat.

When I read the material on boundaries, I was a bit disappointed. The premise that most non BPD people who are with BPD's are codependent seems fair, on its face, but not accurate, as far as I can see, in mine. [possibly some, but pretty limited.] I think I understand the value based concept and it's a positive and useful prism. Unfortunately, I didn't find the mechanism I need to both hold to my important boundaries without incurring strife or to generate my core needs that I feel are not being met?

He has a business issue that I have been assisting him with for some time. When we spoke on Friday, he enlisted my continuing help. Filled with the milk of human hope, post finding this site, I agreed and we spent several hours discussing the issue. I have also agreed to go to a meeting with him this week about it - date tbd.

But although we have discussed getting together for fun, sex and catching up, he's hedging and won't set a day.

So - here I sit - feeling that once again, I'm waiting on him to decide when he wants to see me - battling the scripts in my head and grasping for a lifeline to deal with this ongoing, hurtful issue in a way that is good for both of us.

Yesterday, after we had talked for over an hour, I made some progress in that I was ready to do other things, so I told him I wanted to get going [I rarely do this] and asked if he knew when we would be getting together ... .he said 'no' and I managed to keep it light, remind him that it was important to me without criticizing him, and get off the phone. He indicated that he knew I want some 'quality' time ... .i.e. he does know I was hurt recently when he put me off about my birthday.

Unfortunately, it took a lot of control to keep my thoughts and feelings positive as I went through the rest of my day. This morning, I just want to scream! I feel I've made the wrong choice for me. I keep defaulting to "oh this is great for him - he gets an emotional caretaker and I get less than before."

Then I begin to seesaw between options to either make myself feel better and ways to better cope with his refusal to make a plan AND 'strategies' to get him to do what I need. I know the latter is futile and counter productive. I also know that if my needs aren't met, there is no way I can function properly. In addition, I understand that the work I've begun is to improve our relationship - NOT to change him. At the moment, however, I don't seem to have the facility or the tools to accept his behavior without it hurting me.

I have thought about your response to my first post several times and find myself wondering - Why did you hope I would try again? In my current state, I see advantages for him - but not so much for me ... . - I know I wrote that I love him and miss him - and I do - but again - I'm not finding a lot to encourage me that anything I do will improve my ability to handle the hurt and disappointment when he won't or can't make time for me.

And, of course, I'm also feeling small and inadequate because a 'good' person would be happy just being strong and supportive of their loved one ... .

[Grey Kitty]

... .I started on the Boundaries question. I was already feeling that, so far the material seemed to tell me how I can make things easier? better? less confrontational for him. I also realize this isn't about changing him or getting him to do what I want or need. [... .]

When I read the material on boundaries, I was a bit disappointed. The premise that most non BPD people who are with BPD's are codependent seems fair, on its face, but not accurate, as far as I can see, in mine. [possibly some, but pretty limited.] I think I understand the value based concept and it's a positive and useful prism. Unfortunately, I didn't find the mechanism I need to both hold to my important boundaries without incurring strife or to generate my core needs that I feel are not being met?

Boundary enforcement can do some things very well. Other things it cannot do. If he is being verbally abusive, you can stop that 100% with boundary enforcement. I would note that he doesn't have to LIKE your boundary enforcement actions... .well... .99% of the time he will very much dislike them, at least until much later when he gets used to them. He almost certainly will get upset when you first attempt to enforce a new boundary.

Boundary enforcement also cannot protect you from things he's not doing, like this:

But although we have discussed getting together for fun, sex and catching up, he's hedging and won't set a day.

I have thought about your response to my first post several times and find myself wondering - Why did you hope I would try again? In my current state, I see advantages for him - but not so much for me ... . - I know I wrote that I love him and miss him - and I do - but again - I'm not finding a lot to encourage me that anything I do will improve my ability to handle the hurt and disappointment when he won't or can't make time for me.

And, of course, I'm also feeling small and inadequate because a 'good' person would be happy just being strong and supportive of their loved one ... .

I don't believe that being strong and supportive... .when it involves sacrificing your own well-being for another makes you 'good', but I sure can understand how you would feel that way.  

I don't claim any special ability to look into you and your relationship and find any hidden reason why you should give it another try.

It truly is your choice whether to try again or not... .and for how long and how far.

The role I want to take here is to help you understand what you are choosing and how to do it--not to push you in either direction. (That said, my own background probably biases me a bit  toward another try, even if your situation doesn't.)

[A C]

Thanks for responding

Sorry - I in no way meant to imply that you were deciding or telling me what to decide. Only I can choose - It was my way of asking for something positive - some indication, if there is one - of encouragement, that it could have a good outcome -

My own push-pull, I guess - regarding my choice to stay and to work on our relationship and myself with the assistance and knowledge from this site.

Speaking with him this weekend was quite strange and a bit challenging because I have so much new and unprocessed information. I'm seeing everything through a new lens - which I may have said earlier.

So please continue to support me in my choice of staying - with the knowledge that I may scream sometimes about the 'why'.

[Grey Kitty]

So please continue to support me in my choice of staying - with the knowledge that I may scream sometimes about the 'why'.

I will. And I truly love the self-awareness you expressed there!

I was actually laughing out loud when I read it, and I mean laughing with joy--That you can choose to stay and work on things, while knowing you will need to scream about the general unfairness of the situation, and after getting that out of your system, will re-group and try again... .at least for now.

That kind of attitude will get you a long ways, both in life and specifically toward making the best out of this challenging relationship.

[A C]

Thank you - and I'm so glad I made you smile.

I really do appreciate the support.

[A C]

Hello again

A couple of times, I've commented on my lover's unwillingness or inability to make a commitment to get together. This is chronic and, I think, not just with me. (He is able to plan business related meetings].

Is this also part of the BPD behavior/pathology? If so, are there any tools to help me deal with it? It is very much a sore spot for me.

[an0ught]

Hi A C,

Is this also part of the BPD behavior/pathology? If so, are there any tools to help me deal with it? It is very much a sore spot for me.

lack of executive mindset - yeah, very much BPD.

I'm glad you carefully read through the workshops here. You realized already in the past that boundaries somewhat worked and when reading through the workshops picked up that we have a fairly set way to go about boundaries. They are always constructed in a way that they remain under our control and also do the least to feed further conflict.

A lot of dealing with BPD is relying on basic tools. Actually skills as they need practice. Let's look at your question through these different lenses:

Boundaries:

You could limit the number of times you ask him again. You could make his participation optional - he shows up in time - great - if not - also great.

Communication:

DEARMAN (see workshops) - this would be asking him to change what he is doing. It may work although I suspect the pattern is too ingrined for him to have enough control to change easily.

SET (see workshops) - this could be part of a solution. Address the elephant in the room at least once. The tricky bit would be making the T digestible i.e. fact and not accusing.

Validation - for this one would know what is holding him back from commitment. If in doubt anything related to anxiety is always a good candidate: Fear? Insecurity? Guilt? Engulfment? etc. etc. Addressing these emotions sufficiently will help him being more relaxed and able to commit.

It is also worth remembering that pwBPd tend towards splitting - a fragmented perception of reality. He may be able to manage the business side - maybe with lots of effort and maybe if it is not so emotional - but private life is not integrated. You may want to plan but he struggles to see a timeline and him on it in a stable manner. You taking on more the lead and making him to go along on shorter notice could also be part of a solution.

[A C]

Thank for responding.

Could you direct me to some material on "executive mindset"? I find I do better when I understand his issue/perspective.

[Grey Kitty]

I believe what a0 is referring to has more about it in this bit from the lessons (follow the link in the sidebar ---->>>> for lots more good stuff)

BPD behavior - Poor executive control

At the core of BPD is rejection sensitivity and poor executive control.  Rejection sensitivity is easy to understand, executive control is a bit more complex. Executive functions and cognitive control are terms used by psychologists and neuroscientists to describe a loosely defined collection of brain processes whose role is to guide thought and behavior in accordance with a persons goals or plans. Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79702.0

[an0ught]

Thanks GC for digging that up.

I find I do better when I understand his issue/perspective.

There is value in understanding. It is important to keep in mind that facts are superficial and BPD is very much an emotional concern. Having a mental model how things work at the core of a pwBPD (and to a lesser but still large extent everyone else) can be very, very useful. But like relying on the lizard brain which can be useful in e.g. emergencies (and often is the MO of a pwBPD) it is critically important not to rely too much on models. Life is complex and keeping the limitations in mind is vital.

Having said this I find it very useful to visualize BPD as an emotional regulation disorder. It not only explains and allows to predict some things but it also helps me to understand my role in promoting or helping and as a guide shape my reactions. More can be found here.

When emotionally overexcited pwBPD tend to work on lizard brain mode: black and white thinking. Splitting is related to that - keeping (and integrating) opposite thoughts becomes hard. This can result in latching on to black or white or in other cases oscillating between contradictory mindsets. Composing and holding on to a balanced plan becomes impossible. The situation may become more complex as the pwBPD may then resort to compensatory behavior that is helping in the short term but destructive in the long run e.g. since struggling to hold on to a plan avoid planning in general.

There is no magic break-through solution but knowing where to nudge can make a big difference if done consistently in the right direction.

[A C]

Thank you both so much - I haven't disappeared - just working on applying some of what I'm learning. I do have a fierce need to understand. It drives me in many areas of my life. It's mostly a positive force and only occasionally, a curse

I found some additional material on Executive Function that was a bit more helpful to me - just explained in a way that I could relate it to his behavior.

Perhaps the greatest improvement from your help and this site is that I am looking at him and us through a different lens. Intuitively, it seems I was 'right' about many of my impressions that his behavior wasn't a way to hurt me - that it often has very little to do with 'us'. The bonus - strange word - is that I have been able to view some past hurtful or inexplicable actions/words through this lens prompting much deeper understanding on my part. It's early yet, but I sense that I am triggered less as a result.

I have also been working on patience - a huge challenge for me. I have a lot more work to do on my triggers, patience and releasing hurt.

We are in positive territory right now. Both of us are relieved and grateful. It's strange when I remember that he isn't even aware of the work I've been doing or of my new and evolving perspective. Another bonus of this awareness is that I am able to perceive his ways of showing love and appreciation - as a result, I am able to receive it. And finally, I have a better understanding of his preferences for assurance and appreciation.

The adult in me wants to add the caveat that I know this is a process and I'm just at the beginning. My inner shero chooses to celebrate the victories.

[Grey Kitty]

  Good to hear you are doing better, and so is he.

Please feel free to share how things go when you work on applying what you are learning.

Other members here will find inspiration in your successes, provide some sympathy for difficulties... .and be able to point you in useful directions you might not be seeing... .

[A C]

Hi again

I certainly intend to share more when it feels a bit less hit and miss ... .or more accurately, once I've been able to integrate more of my research/reading into my actions without feeling quite so overwhelmed with new information. The first time I saw him after coming to this site, I felt self-conscious as I 'applied' the lessons and babbled in my head in an effort to decipher my thoughts. I just needed to shut off my brain for a bit and allow myself time to experience without over analyzing.  -

Is there a preferred posting procedure regarding staying with the original thread or starting a new one?

[Grey Kitty]

Trying new tools does feel weird and awkward at first. That's normal.

As far as new topics or continuing on your old one, this is your topic, and somewhere in our policies it is stated that you host it... .which means that you can choose--if you find the subject matter shifting from where it started to something else that is now more topical/timely for you, that's OK.

If a new issue comes up, you can start a new topic.

In other words, this is your topic, it is here to support you, and as long it is helping, you are doing it right 

Please feel free to chime in on other's topics as well; your experiences will often be very similar, and you will have things to share there too. (Try not to take the original poster's topic off for a ride too far in some other direction tho... .they are hosting their topic)