Paradox Communication

[sebastian.l]

I have a question and hope some of the more experienced folks here can bring some light in the dark here. The paramount of my BPD girl is to say sentences that inherit a positive intention first, followed by an immediate expressed negative thought that neglects the first one.

Typical example is this, when she wanted to call me when alone on a hiking trip:

"When I have again some connection I text you but there's no reception on top of the mountain"

I get these sentences like 10 times a day. Her whole communication is like this - especially during a push phase when she 'takes' time away for herself from the relationship - and it really drives me totally nuts! Does this mean she calls now, or she cannot call.

I get, it expresses ambivalence. Other guys say, it is a 'double-bind'. What else is behind this? It seems like she knows already that she do not want to call and pushes a prophylactic excuse forefront.

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[Turkish]

This does sound frustrating. Can you validate the valid, "ok, I look forward to hearing from you whenever you get reception," and leave it at that?

[sebastian.l]

This does sound frustrating. Can you validate the valid, "ok, I look forward to hearing from you whenever you get reception," and leave it at that?

Well I can. I am just sure, she will feel pressured, controlled and engulfed by that kind of response. She sees it as a obligation to call as soon as there is signal.

[Turkish]

Is it that bad? Would even "ok" trigger her?

At some point, a boundary needs to be drawn.

[sebastian.l]

At some point, a boundary needs to be drawn.

That nails it on the head. I do not know how to draw a line. In general with people... .I say OK and am getting myself into the waiting loop

[sweetheart]

sebastian boundaries can be hard around this type of behaviour because often times we are trying to appease and please our SO.

You are already aware that you find boundaries difficult, that you find it easier to go with the others flow.

What you are realising is that being caught in a double bind communication traps you, damned if you do, damned if you don't. And it leaves you feeling frustrated and yucky.

So the only person who can change this pattern of communication is you, that does not mean I think it is easy, or a magic fix. I don't but over time with some practice you can establish a different outcome for you.

How might you start, how can you extricate yourself from the situation. Turkish suggests validating the text on a very basic level, I think this is a good place to start as well. Replying 'ok' and then going about your day until you feel able to enter into a conversation that feels manageable for you.

It is also possible that if you validate, the push/pull behaviours might improve and relent.

How does that sound, is it something you could try?

[sebastian.l]

yes sure I can try this. I find it my hardest lesson to detach from her withdrawal and just say OK and go my way. That is not so easy. I would love to talk to her. However, her double bind puts me always in a waiting loop. What you suggest, sounds to me to re-interpret the 'waiting loop' as 'I go and do my thing'. Whereas the outcome is the same = not hearing from her or our communication being on hold. That's hard to withstand if you love someone.

But I understand your point of improving the situation by changing my reaction to it. All these 'games' are really hard to play and energy consuming. Especially when one gets aware of them. Blessed are the 'numb' ones that just don't realize when a test is thrown or a double-bind set out for you.

Another example just occurred: I say Ok, and disengage a little. With no reason I changed my Facebook pic. She realizes it and throws a test almost immediately. 'What about the pic? Why you changed it? I liked the old one better! me: want me to change it? her: that's up to you, just telling my opinion.'

This is a typical test if I am after all the reduced silence and push still in arm-lenghts for her and she tests if she can bring me into changing the pic - control, check if I am about to leave. If I change it, she controls me, BPD behavior stays without consequence and she has the still the power because she knows, I will stick around. If I don't, she asks if something is wrong and we enter a circle of mistrust and second guessing.

puhhhhh... .these things just make my normal day.

 

[an0ught]

Hi sebastian.l

this is some form of twisted thinking. In DBT there is some training on untwisting the own thinking so I guess this self contradictory/defeating communication is quite common with BPD. I'm not really aware of what is causing it however it strikes me such patterns of communication can be a source for invalidation of self and others and a driver for BPD as a condition.

What can you do:

#1#2#3 get better at validation. Really learn to read between the lines (and that often means ignoring the words and watching the face, voice or deeds). Verify your understanding by reflecting back what you heard was the intent. Don't judge where not needed (part of the contradictory message motivation may be to cover both bases to prevent rejection).

#4 boundaries. Don't commit significant resources before you have validated sufficiently and know she was calm when making the statement and you truly got the meaning.

This is not easy on you and she has no simple way to do better. Validation can help a lot improving the communication of true intent. The better she is regulated the less she will do it. To overcome this behavior in general I suspect will be a long journey without focused training.

[C.Stein]

Really learn to read between the lines (and that often means ignoring the words and watching the face, voice or deeds).

I agree it is very important to be able to do this with someone who has confusing methods of communication.  That said it is equally important to not misread between the lines which seems to be happening here in some cases.  There is also the case where you get caught looking for or reading something that is not there.

Another example just occurred: I say Ok, and disengage a little. With no reason I changed my Facebook pic. She realizes it and throws a test almost immediately. 'What about the pic? Why you changed it? I liked the old one better! me: want me to change it? her: that's up to you, just telling my opinion.'

Certainly you must have had some reason to change the pic, even if it was just as simple as you were tired of it.  Perhaps a good response to this might be ... . Yea, the old one is a pretty good pic but I was tired of it so I decided it was time for something new ... .then just leave it at that.  

[an0ught]

Really learn to read between the lines (and that often means ignoring the words and watching the face, voice or deeds).

I agree it is very important to be able to do this with someone who has confusing methods of communication.  That said it is equally important to not misread between the lines which seems to be happening here in some cases.  There is also the case where you get caught looking for or reading something that is not there.

Good point. It is worth remembering that we want to steer the communication and relationship towards validating exchanges. An educated guess based on observation or stereotypes is only a guess and potentially wrong. At times we need to take a short term risk to be wrong and to be invalidating to get a stuck conversation going or to enter a new topic for conversation. A humble and open attitude is important. I stress here humble and NOT afraid (our fear has a strong "smell" and can override anything we say). A guess is only a stop-gap measure and needs to be validated as soon as possible. When wrong you have learned something, focus on learning more and avoid JADE.

Remember in a healthy relationship there is a ratio of greater 5 to 1 of validating to invalidating exchanges. So there are a lot of invalidating exchanges in a healthy relationship and that is ok. It is when fear governs our communication and missteps lead to blowups that the communication breaks down. A lot is down to JADE and our fear to voice what we truly think. And yes, the pwBPD lead that way but if we want to turn around and reverse course we can't continue. There is a lot of paradoxical behavior to deal with when facing BPD. Sometimes we are asked to act paradoxical as well. We need to avoid invalidation where we can but also must not be afraid to invalidate 

[sempervivum]

 That said it is equally important to not misread between the lines which seems to be happening here in some cases.  There is also the case where you get caught looking for or reading something that is not there.

Yes, that happens quite often in long relationships. Sometimes it really is our mis-reading, but sometimes a pBPD simply knows we are "translating" and evades the truth, denying our translation. That shows he/she evolves and develops in his/her peculiar way and has been following our behavior.

I am still not quite sure is that good or bad.

[adaw]

and just dare to be busy when she feels like communicating?

[sebastian.l]

Communication example:

My BPDex says texting and whatsapp leads to misunderstandings. She suggests to better talk on the phone. So far so good. I was impressed that this comes from her.

I reply: Great, I agree. Think, a lot of our problems came from the misunderstanding because of texting and whatsapp. I did what I could to change this.

After that I didn't hear from her anymore for 2 weeks. I asked her why the silence. She said me saying 'I did what I could to change this' arrives with her as it was her fault again and leaves her in a powerless state. So she decided to stay silent and not talk to me anymore.

I need a third party opinion on that please? If I made the communication mistake here, I am willing to see it and learn to change. It was not my intention to put any blame on her. did I do this with my sentence?

[Noonesdoll]

I see two solutions you could propose to her as a response to such text:

1. "I totally understand. Just call me whenever you get decent reception."

2. Move the communication into a new format - obviously, if she sends a text, at some point of her trip she hits a reception spot, and the text gets sent - so maybe instead of calling just text? So the possible response would be "bummer about reception. How is the trip going?" Hopefully she'll respond about the trip, and then you guys can just text back and forward.

I think the second option would be good given the circumstances. It would eliminate your frustration about no communication, and take away the pressure to keep checking your phone at all times so that you don't miss her call. 

[Noonesdoll]

Communication example:


I reply: Great, I agree. Think, a lot of our problems came from the misunderstanding because of texting and whatsapp. I did what I could to change this.

After that I didn't hear from her anymore for 2 weeks. I asked her why the silence. She said me saying 'I did what I could to change this' arrives with her as it was her fault again and leaves her in a powerless state. So she decided to stay silent and not talk to me anymore.

You obviously did not mean to place fault on her by saying "I did what I could to change this". at the time, did it feel like she was blaming you for misunderstandings?

Her speaking about misunderstandings and proposing to call may or may not have included an implication that you are at fault.

If there was such an implication, "I did what I could" fed into the blame-placing.

If there was none, she interpreted it as an attack on her.

I had similar texting conversations. And after a while learned that it is important to stay calm, identify the important information, and ignore the possible "baits"

I found this tread extremely helpful: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=64749.0

[an0ught]

Thank you for your comments and Noonesdoll.

My BPDex says texting and whatsapp leads to misunderstandings. She suggests to better talk on the phone. So far so good. I was impressed that this comes from her.

Often true that texing is problematic. Simply be being seemingly emotional it is wired to more to the lizard brain. Being short and prone to misunderstanding and working at times with delay there is a high risk of invalidation and few routes to recovery.

I reply: Great, I agree. Think, a lot of our problems came from the misunderstanding because of texting and whatsapp.

This is ok. Although it goes a bit into explaining (jadE).

I did what I could to change this.

Now this is jaDe (D=defend) implicitly shifting blame to her.

After that I didn't hear from her anymore for 2 weeks. I asked her why the silence. She said me saying 'I did what I could to change this' arrives with her as it was her fault again and leaves her in a powerless state. So she decided to stay silent and not talk to me anymore.

Change is hard. Texting is impulsive and she found ways to do that. Committing to a conversation seems to be fraught with greater hurdles.

1. "I totally understand. Just call me whenever you get decent reception."

"I understand"can be invalidating - generally try to avoid "I". Sebastian's way of reflecting what she meant is more validating. Ending with a call to action is good.

2. Move the communication into a new format - obviously, if she sends a text, at some point of her trip she hits a reception spot, and the text gets sent - so maybe instead of calling just text? So the possible response would be "bummer about reception. How is the trip going?" Hopefully she'll respond about the trip, and then you guys can just text back and forward.

Good point. This is a change and from what has happened it was too big a step. Acknowledge that openly - without blaming anyone as you are 50% of this. Maybe a mix works better for you two? What about all

- responding via text

- responding via phone

- not responding without need for justification

are all ok options?

[sebastian.l]

Hi guys, thanx for all the constructive ideas here. What I learn to improve from my side is

- validating more and reflect the ideas back to her

- less analyzing, I tend to analyze things/her which gives her a lot of anxiety

About the moving into a new format such as 'texting'. Don't think this improves communication. To explain I have to state some background about how she is functioning. When she starts to get feelings of missing me, she enters sadness, crying, feels bad and even shows physical pain (belly) sometimes. To cope she puts up her emotional wall to ease the pain and sadness. She starts feeling better = ergo, I cause her pain and sadness. She needs to disengage. THIS is the main problem in our relationship.

The disengagement reflects in her communication. Less statements of affection, less frequency, short phrases via text. In contradiction, she then tells her friend she does NOT hear a lot FROM ME, whereas she freezes intentionally the communication and disengages (=is this projection? She communicates badly but puts it on me with 'bad guy, I don't hear from him).

I realize her disengagement of course and my fear of loosing her gets triggered. I analyze every word more than usual. Especially every single rare text message I receive. And voilá , we enter the circle of misunderstanding and interpretation of text messages. Hence, texting seems to me not the solution. I would prefer a call, good talk about the holidays and then nothing for the time with no signal. This seems better than waiting for the phone to beep with a bite of a message and a few words for interpretation. This drains me.

The true problem is her inability to accept the pain of missing me as a sign of love, romantic feelings. I tried to talk with her, explain my view, the feeling of love can show in happiness and in sadness of missing the other part. But she just can't handle this feeling without disengaging and running from it.

[sebastian.l]

two other examples how confusing even abusive the BPD communication can be:

1. after a night out with her girls, she called me to let me know how hard it was for her to talk to me sometimes. When she wants to do something alone, it seems, I would always react 'sad' and 'disappointed'. And if I would not hold her close enough, she is afraid, she might be too far and gone one day.

What she withheld to communicate was that she cheated on me that night with another guy when she was drunk. I only found out 3 months later that she went home with him.

2. after we broke up and had no contact for 3 weeks, she sees a pic on Facebook with me and another girl. The girl was a friend. Suddenly, she calls me and communicates, she is jealous, she still loves me and thinks I still love her too. I jump on the train, because I still did love her. We agree to talk 2 days later. I had hope.

Until she told me in that conversation, it was better for her now she is alone, she can do all her stuff, like sports and friends without feeling bad because of not spending time with me. Bummer.

I just comforted her after she saw the disturbing picture with the other girl. She had what she wanted and kicked me again.

[sebastian.l]

just started a text communication with her, in the process of asking her to send me  my stuff back, I asked 'and how are you?' after 3 months of no contact.

she replied: 'i am surprised you care, but I am ok. you?'

this 'i am surprised you care' just wakes my guilt again. Is it between the lines an accusation saying 'you didn't care about me'?