Still struggling with time to myself

[globalnomad]

Hi all. I have been gradually trying to erect some boundaries around taking time out for myself at times. I still find this very difficult. My BPD wife seems to view any time away from her as a zero sum game. It is only ever justified if I have first satisfied all obligations to her and my family, and since this consists of an infinite and unsatisfiable list, it is never justified. A couple of examples of the kind of trouble I am having.

1. Today I am meeting a close friend for a quick drink after work, so will be home around an hour late. I told her about this two weeks in advance and gave her another reminder on the weekend. This morning I am getting messages about how tired she is from looking after the baby, how she thinks she is coming down with a cold, etc. I don't doubt this, but this kind of thing always happens when I am scheduled to have any type of time away. If I don't cancel it she will probably dysregulate when I get home and accuse me of caring more about my friends than her. Note: She has family to help her with the baby so me being home an hour late really should not be an issue. I cannot say this to her, of course.

2. Another good friend of mine just told me he has tickets to a Dylan concert in July. I was a big Dylan fan from a young age and have never seen him play, so would love to go. It's on a Friday night. I told my wife I'd love to go, I know she gets tired looking after the baby when I'm away at work all day and also in the evening, so I'll take that day off to ease the burden. That way I'll be there to help her out during the day and gone just a few hours in the evening. To which I get a series of objections like: "I don't think that's a good use of your days off. What if someone gets sick and we need them for something else?", "Why do you always prioritize your friends over family" and finally "I just don't want you to go."

This is all a better state of affairs than a few months ago, when I would just decline invitations all the time for fear of triggering another big dysregulation. The problem though is that if I choose to do these things I then have to deal with the consequences and inevitable conflict, which are so draining as to make me wonder if it was all worth it in the first place. Are these type of behaviors the so-called "extinction bursts?" Or do I just have to just resign myself to the fact that she will never be happy with me spending any time away from her, and I have to get used to the rages?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Grey Kitty]

I think the healthy thing for you to do in both tonight and in July is to take the time for yourself, and let her figure out how to deal with it.

Re: July & the Dylan show... .tell her that you ARE going to the Dylan show, it isn't negotiable. Tell her that you planned the vacation day to make things easier for her... .and if she would rather you go to work that day and save your vacation for something else, you don't need to take the vacation day. (This is healthy and good boundaries--It is very fair and reasonable to let her choose whether she would rather have ~12 hours with the baby, or ~4 hours with the baby, and get to have a vacation day with you later.)

But the common thread here is that he threat (implied) threat that she will rage at you could keep you from doing something. If it does, then you are kinda screwed, because she is very willing and able to rage at you for the biggest or smallest of things in order to get her way.

If she were to start raging at you when you came home from work (for this reason, or for any other reason!), what would you normally do?

Do you need better tools to deal with the rages?

[NotThatGuy]

This is so familiar to me.  My wife also resists, protests, or sabotages any time I try to take for myself, and often even time I need for work.  For years, I'd make plans a couple times a month, only to have something come up-- a conflicting appointment of hers, an illness, an argument.  Then, for a while, I stopped bothering to make other plans.  Now, I'm trying to have a life of my own again, and facing a lot of resistance. 

I agree with "Grey Kitty": what seems to work best is being firm about my plans, and asking about what the best way to structure our time around them will be.  "I am going to hang out with some friends on Saturday afternoon-- how can we make that work best?"  We haven't yet gotten to the place where she's able to ask for what she needs, much less negotiate a shared plan, and she hasn't stopped sabotaging.  But being firm about my own needs, and initiating the conversation, means I'm doing what I can do, and I am learning to be OK with the rest. 

I've also been working on maintaining limits around her rages.  I find being attacked like that very distressing, to the point that I usually can't safely tolerate it.  So I usually try to validate her emotions, express my love and commitment, then explain how it makes me feel and exit the conversation, with a plan to discuss the issues later when we're both feeling better. She usually reacts very badly to this in the moment, but is able to regulate herself, given time.

My situation (yours too, from what you say) is complicated because we have kids-- if things get rough between us, I have to make sure the kids will be OK.  That's a work in progress, and it means that sometimes I can't maintain as firm boundaries as would be ideal.

So, yeah, I sympathize with your dilemma.  But, in the end, you've got to put your own oxygen mask on first, or you can't help anybody. 

[teapay]

Global,

Those things are way too fun and cool for you to be doing!  A Dylan concert?  If you must take time for yourself can't you do something that everybody, including your W, would consider very lame, preferably early on a Sun morning when everyone is asleep and everything is closed. 

Seriously, though, I've gotten that kind of stuff from my W for years.  She's felt guilty, encouraged me to do things, but when I actually do them, she's flipped out or sabotaged them.  Even me going to work everyday, she'll have a tough time with it and not want me to leave 1 min early.  Earlier in our marriage I felt like she hoped I would get disabled enough so I could not leave and also that she'd love to hobble me like in the movie Misery. 

She says she's afraid when I leave, when I go do things, when she is alone.

What helped me was deciding what I wanted and how I wanted to live, setting my boundaries of what I would do and pushing back to get my space.  Sounds like you are doing some of that.  My W didn't like it and of course pushed back in turn, but I use whatever leverage and consequences I have to make it not worth her while to act out.  Definitely pushing back knocked her off balance and restored some equilibrium to the relationship.  We have gone through alot of craziness, though.  With that said, sometimes pushing back could blow up the relationship completely.  Of course, then you'll have plenty free time.


I think it is something I'll have to deal with as long as I'm with her.  I can get some space, but she'll always suffer that fear.  She's been like that too long.

[globalnomad]

Thanks all, this is helpful.

Grey Kitty -- I did go ahead and tell her I AM going to the show. This seems to be a major trigger for her. She thinks I should have to ask permission for such things, and when she provides me with 55 reasons why I shouldn't go, I need to back down -- or it means I don't care about her. This script seems to just play over again and again in different scenarios. I think taking time out for oneself keeps the relationship healthy. She thinks the opposite and there is no bridging of that view whatsoever. Regardless, I like your suggestion of putting the responsibility back on her. I have told her I can take that day off or we can use it for something else - she's free to let me know her preference. As for the rages, I generally try to walk away when it gets really bad, but I have limited capacity to remove myself entirely from the situation as we have a young baby at home.

Teapay - You made me laugh with that comment about the movie Misery Work presents a real challenge for me too. I make a big effort to leave the office early - to the point where I am the first one out the door most of the time and my boss sometimes tells me I really should stay a bit later -- but my wife still complains incessantly about how much I work. My hours really are pretty reasonable for the industry I am in, but these facts don't seem to matter.

[Grey Kitty]

As for the rages, I generally try to walk away when it gets really bad, but I have limited capacity to remove myself entirely from the situation as we have a young baby at home.

Maybe I don't understand the situation with a young baby, but I think you *DO* have options to leave immediately when the rage starts, instead of waiting until it gets "too bad"

Please note that staying to be raged at some of the time makes breaking the habit much harder for you than being consistent will. Please read this topic on Extinction Bursts and Intermittent Reinforcement:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Anyhow, here's how I see it. If she is raging at you, she either will care for the baby if you leave, or neglect the baby if you leave. If you think she will care for the baby, you can leave her with the baby.

If you think she will neglect the baby, you can take the baby with you and care for the baby while you protect yourself. (This is obviously more provocative to her, but it is an option.)

Also, please read this lesson on how to take a time out, and do it earlier when she is starting to get upset, rather than later when she's already raging:

How to take a time out

I make a big effort to leave the office early - to the point where I am the first one out the door most of the time and my boss sometimes tells me I really should stay a bit later -- but my wife still complains incessantly about how much I work. My hours really are pretty reasonable for the industry I am in, but these facts don't seem to matter.

I'd suggest that this is another place where you would do well to honor your boss's request--getting fired, or being the first one on the list of people to be laid off if there is a downturn isn't going to help either you or your family.

Just like the Dylan show--you aren't going to convince your wife that what you are doing is "right" and what she is demanding of you is "wrong". Trying will just invalidate her, and turn into a bigger fight/rage.

What you can do is be clear that you ARE going to stay long enough at work to make your job secure, and that you aren't discussing it with her anymore.

No, she won't like it, but this is better than fighting over "why you are right/wrong".

[globalnomad]

Just like the Dylan show--you aren't going to convince your wife that what you are doing is "right" and what she is demanding of you is "wrong". Trying will just invalidate her, and turn into a bigger fight/rage.

What you can do is be clear that you ARE going to stay long enough at work to make your job secure, and that you aren't discussing it with her anymore.

No, she won't like it, but this is better than fighting over "why you are right/wrong".

Thanks Grey Kitty. This is really helpful perspective. I will take a look at those links.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the above. I need to let go of the idea that one day she will realize how unreasonable she is being. That is not going to happen -- and even if it ever does it won't be as a result of me convincing her. Getting caught discussing the rights and wrongs is like trying to wade through quicksand. Better to just avoid it in the first place.

[Grey Kitty]

I need to let go of the idea that one day she will realize how unreasonable she is being. That is not going to happen -- and even if it ever does it won't be as a result of me convincing her.

  Yes, we have a winner there!

[globalnomad]

I need to let go of the idea that one day she will realize how unreasonable she is being. That is not going to happen -- and even if it ever does it won't be as a result of me convincing her.

  Yes, we have a winner there!

Thankyou again! This is quite a big realization for me I think.

[teapay]

Global

I'd agree with Grey Kitty on both points: removing yourself sooner than later and giving special protection to your job.

I understand the point on leaving because kids are involved.  I got 5 of them.  I've a gotten a few calls from the cops telling me to come home and get my kids, because my wife is out of commission.   Are you concerned your wife my harm the child or bug out of commission?  If not, then your pretty clear to enforce that boundary.  My wife got mad when I would leave.  She felt that I was leaving her with all the kids and going on having fun.  So she started leaving.  Works for me.  It's almost like you have to make these situations very hard quid pro quo.  Rage = Remove self.  Not rage = Engage.  If, by you doing this consistently, she learns the association and picks door number 2, then you can validate what she is feeling and positively reinforce it.  If she keeps picking rage door 1, then at least your protected.

The family as a whole, including my wife, are dependent by my job since we are a one income family.  I'm a supervisor in a highly technical field, so a certain level of responsibility falls on me 24/7.  I don't let my wife jeopardize my job.  I made up my mind that she'll go before the job because the kids depend on me whether we stay married or not.  After more than 12yrs,  even with all the boundary enforcement, validating discussions, reasonable agreements, MC, therapy and so on, she still struggles with me simply leaving for work or anything unusual relating to my work schedule.

All of this that you speak of is really a fight for control of you, same as my W  tries to do with me.  My W has this overwhelming drive to control.  It stems from alot of deep, inextricable and overpowering insecurities and instability, which compromise both her ability to think and control herself.  I don't expect it to ever go away for her no matter how much therapy, nor will we ever really understand it.  I can try to accommodate her to the extent I'm comfortable,  but I can't knowingly let these irrationalities govern the decisions and direct our family and my life.  

[Notwendy]

I think it is good for each spouse to have some personal time. Does your wife have this chance too?

The baby is the consideration.

I faced this issue in my marriage and it became a source of conflict. I was the main caretaker for the kids, and my H works. When he was not working, he wanted time to himself. I completely agree with this. However, if I wanted to do something and asked him to watch the kids, he would refuse, insisting that I had plenty of time at home and he didn't. Which was true. So these requests were inevitably rare, except for occasions where events were on evenings and weekends.

A couple of times, I would ask to do something, he would agree ,and at the last minute bail out. I would be stuck, have to cancel my plans. Or he would say no, and argue that I should not go. I soon got the idea that the kids were a convenient excuse to stop me from going somewhere. I also began turning down opportunities- it was too much trouble to ask him. I learned that if I really wanted to do something, I would have to get a sitter, as that was more reliable. By contrast, I saw my other mom friends attend club meetings, or go off for a night off with the girls, and their H's would watch the kids. It seemed that their H's knew that it was important for each spouse to have some time with friends- so long as it wasn't excessive. Over time, these women have formed close bonds with each other. I have very few friends and am excluded from these groups and activities as not attending made me an outsider.

I don't think this was deliberate on my H's part, or if he was even aware of it. I think it came from the anxiety in the moment. I think that the times he did agree to watch the kids, he was genuine, but then when the time came, in the moment, he didn't want to. Discussing this pattern was futile. I just realized that if I wanted to do something, that it was more reliable to arrange for child care.

If it were me planning to go see Dylan, I would consider a back up sitter plan. One possibility is that, on the day of the concert, your wife might come up with some reason she can't watch the baby. Of course, you know that if it was necessary, you would take care of the child. This was the case for me. I would choose the children's best interest over any plans I had- and this became a means of isolation. You say your wife has family in town- perhaps they will agree to be the back up, or a sitter. I just found that if I really wanted to do something, having a sitter gave me peace of mind and separated me from the conflict. So long as you are expecting your wife to watch the baby while you go, she has some control over that happening.

[Notwendy]

A heads up to the spouses who have partners who are the main caretakers of the kids. Your partners are not your live in babysitters. Neither are you the bank. Both need to be respectful of the contribution of each partner in the marriage, and I think - that with a PD, this is where the balance gets skewed.

Growing up with BPD mom, we had frequent sitters. As a kid, I resented it. I wanted a mommy to stay with me like my friends' mommies. But it was years later that I understood that, my father had to work, and this is the way he was able to do that. My parents, as a couple, also had a great social life together, and this is how they accomplished that. Moreso, I realized that the sitters were a source of stability for us kids- and a caring influence.

When I first considered sitters, I felt guilty, inadequate, that I too was being a bad mom. These feelings made it very easy to back down from doing things. I think parenthood is a big responsibility, and that, in many cases it was the right choice to be with the kids. Yet, this also became a convenient way to isolate me- not on purpose but as a means to manage anxiety. Being isolated and not having female friends wasn't good for me emotionally.

My H also expressed resentment about being the wage earner, and sometimes used this as leverage. Yet it is possible for the main caretaker to use their position for leverage. Doing either is not good for the relationship. However, the balance in a relationship when one person has a PD may not be the same as in other families. Sitters helped my parents stay in a sort of balance, and they did for me. In my case, I found that the sitters were not a source of resentment for the kids. The difference is that, they have a mommy, and they saw the sitters- often responsible teens-  as cool "big kids" to play with. You may be thinking " I work, why can't my spouse just watch those kids" but  having sitters separated the care of the kids from the conflicts. Something to think about- because the kids are the innocent party here. Their needs are a priority, and having less resentment between their caretakers can benefit them.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

What you can do is be clear that you ARE going to stay long enough at work to make your job secure, and that you aren't discussing it with her anymore.

No, she won't like it, but this is better than fighting over "why you are right/wrong".

I struggle with this type of boundary... .because my w (rightly in my opinion) will come back with if we can't discuss things like this why are we married... .

I've got a long list of things that if I never discussed with my w again I'd be a happy/happier man.  But what kind of relationship would we have if from this day forward we can't discuss them?  How controlling am I if I say I'll stay in the marriage, but only if we don't talk about all the wacko things that end up in fights.

[globalnomad]

I think it is good for each spouse to have some personal time. Does your wife have this chance too?

Here lies the difficulty. My wife has very little "personal time" -- but this is partly her choice. I have been strongly encouraging her to take some time out once in a while and leave the baby with me. To be fair, I am at work on weekdays so there are limited opportunities for her to do this. But I am around in the evenings and weekends and I've suggested she go for a girl's night out or movie with a friend, etc once in a while. She has never taken up this offer. She is also resistant to the idea of a sitter as she thinks our baby is still too young for it.

I like your idea though. I will try to arrange for backup. As you say, even if she agrees to mind our son that night in advance, there is a good chance when it comes to the day she will get anxious and try to sabotage things at the last minute (not necessarily intentionally - I'm not sure she is even aware of the pattern) -- and because I am ultimately responsible for my child I will end up having to stay at home and isolating myself further. Not a healthy pattern.

[globalnomad]

Global

I'd agree with Grey Kitty on both points: removing yourself sooner than later and giving special protection to your job.

I understand the point on leaving because kids are involved.  I got 5 of them.  I've a gotten a few calls from the cops telling me to come home and get my kids, because my wife is out of commission.   Are you concerned your wife my harm the child or bug out of commission?  

Fortunately I am not concerned about my wife harming our son. That should make it easier to leave. For some reason I still find this difficult, though.

[Grey Kitty]

What you can do is be clear that you ARE going to stay long enough at work to make your job secure, and that you aren't discussing it with her anymore.

No, she won't like it, but this is better than fighting over "why you are right/wrong".

I struggle with this type of boundary... .because my w (rightly in my opinion) will come back with if we can't discuss things like this why are we married... .



I've got a long list of things that if I never discussed with my w again I'd be a happy/happier man.  But what kind of relationship would we have if from this day forward we can't discuss them?  How controlling am I if I say I'll stay in the marriage, but only if we don't talk about all the wacko things that end up in fights.

You can make this a "big question" and it sounds like a marriage killer... .and there may well be a time when you need to choose to end your marriage... .but stay away from it if you can. I like to approach it in a pragmatic way, and work on the "small question" instead.

If you categorically refused to discuss this kind of thing with her, it would be controlling on your part. That isn't what I recommend, nor is it what you are doing here.

What you are doing is refusing to participate in the fight / circular argument over her controlling your behavior.

*IF* she could discuss this without turning it into a verbally/emotionally abusive fight, you would be willing.

She has a poor track record there (to say the least!) The line you are drawing is about the fight, not the subject. She is choosing to make it a fight every time it comes up... .and the sooner you cut off the fight, the better for everybody.

As you get better at cutting off the abusive fighting, and especially if you get better at validating her feelings, you may find you can have more of a discussion with her about the subject.

[Grey Kitty]

Fortunately I am not concerned about my wife harming our son. That should make it easier to leave. For some reason I still find this difficult, though.

 It *IS* difficult. Your wife is upset, and she is blaming you, and telling you that your behavior is making her upset. This isn't true, but you still feel very uncomfortable about it.

New behaviors--like enforcing this kind of boundary--do feel very uncomfortable, especially when you start.

I'm pretty sure you will find it getting easier as you get more practice doing it.

[globalnomad]

 It *IS* difficult. Your wife is upset, and she is blaming you, and telling you that your behavior is making her upset. This isn't true, but you still feel very uncomfortable about it.

New behaviors--like enforcing this kind of boundary--do feel very uncomfortable, especially when you start.

I'm pretty sure you will find it getting easier as you get more practice doing it.

What I find difficult is that recently my wife has resorted to sometimes pre-emptively kicking me out before I get a chance to leave of my own accord. She has even threatened to call 911 unless I leave my own apartment. Walking away is still the best policy, but it leaves me feeling humiliated and like I am just being walked all over. I guess I need to leave earlier before it gets to that point. That said, the truly major dysregulations have been few and far between recently -- I would like to think partly thanks to some skills I have learned on here. Hopefully that improving trend continues

[Notwendy]

I can relate to the hesitancy to leave a baby with a sitter. Leaving the baby stirs up all kinds of feelings and anxiety. We are hard wired to protect out babies, strongly bonded and worry about them if we are away from them. If we really want to do something, or get a break, or have a career/job, we cognitively manage these feelings. Once we have established that the sitter is safe and reliable to the best of our abilities, then we need to be able to self soothe and understand that the child is in safe hands and will be OK. It doesn't help that the media grabs on to every psycho sitter story, but these are still the exception more than the rule.

The other side of this picture is to be able to tolerate the baby/child's distress. Kids want what they want. and they cry when they want something and don't get it. Learning to self soothe is an important skill for a baby. Naturally, we always attend to young infants in distress, but as kids get older, it can become a behavioral issue if they get whatever they want when they cry or tantrum.

However, if someone has BPD or any difficulty managing their emotions, then these feelings are difficult to manage. I even think they can happen when leaving the baby with the other parent, but other emotions may be at play here too. Then, to add to this, the baby/child's emotions and it can be difficult to manage.

Once a young couple I knew asked me to babysit their young preschooler for a few hours. I personally think I am an experienced parent and reliable sitter, and they knew me well. They didn't leave their child with anyone but grandma. This time, grandma was not available. Like most kids do, the child pitched a fit when they left. Yet as soon as they left, the child calmed down and started playing with toys. A minute later, the couple walked in the door, said to the child " we don't want you to be sad" and took the child with them. Later they lamented that they couldn't leave their child with anyone, but it was not the sitter, and the child was fine- it was that they couldn't tolerate the child's distress.


Another part is feeling displaced or abandoned. One of my kids had a favorite teen sitter. We were out with a group of people, including me, and my child jumped in the arms of the sitter. Another mom said " that would make me sad to think my child preferred the sitter to me". I didn't think that at all. My kid knows who her mom is. I was happy that she liked her sitter. A person with BPD might not like to think the child is bonded to someone else.

I am telling you this, because as a mom, one of the hardest things is to walk away from a child crying for you, and then feel bad yourself. Add to this any personal triggers. One of mine was that my kids would feel about me how I felt about my BPD mom. I don't know what kind of mom your wife had,  but that also comes into play. I hope that it helps to understand why the task of leaving the baby is so hard on some moms- so perhaps with validation, and reassurance, these moms can learn that it is OK to leave a child with a reliable sitter or at preschool sometimes and in almost all cases, it is safe. But the sitter idea may not be something that can happen right away- and it may be too hard for some parents. Hopefully validating these feelings can lead to some resolution.

[globalnomad]

Thanks Notwendy, that is a really helpful perspective. I know I need to get much better at validation. My wife finds it really really difficult to tolerate the emotions stirred up by the baby crying. When her mother was staying with us it was even worse. There was a phase where our baby was crying a lot at night. This is pretty normal for any baby. Yet her mother kept telling us it was leading her to the verge of a nervous breakdown and we needed to do something about it.

I can now see a little where my wife got her extreme emotional sensitivity from. Her mother also thought leaving the baby to cry for more than a few seconds was a form of child abuse. I think that was more about her inability to tolerate the emotional distress it stirred up in her than actual concern for the baby though. As a result she -- and my wife will spring into action in milliseconds at the slightest hint of fussing. I don't think you can give a young baby too much love, but I do worry that the smothering behavior could hinder my son's development as he gets older and seeks more independence.

In the meantime, I am just going to do my best to work at this validation thing

[Grey Kitty]

  Yes, you are doing better.

I've got some perspective to offer on this one... .

What I find difficult is that recently my wife has resorted to sometimes pre-emptively kicking me out before I get a chance to leave of my own accord. She has even threatened to call 911 unless I leave my own apartment. Walking away is still the best policy, but it leaves me feeling humiliated and like I am just being walked all over. I guess I need to leave earlier before it gets to that point.

Two things she is doing... .and quite likely not actually aware of either one, so nothing good will come of mentioning it to her... .

1. She's realized that when you leave, she doesn't have power over you... .so by kicking you out, she's trying to take back the power for herself... .and probably also hoping you will lose confidence in its effectiveness for you.

2. She does take stuff out on you as a way for her to cope. You are taking her coping mechanism off the table. That means that whatever she's feeling stressed and upset about, she has to find a new way to deal with, and in the mean time, it is bugging her more... .so she's going to push harder and try new things.

... .as you get more comfortable with enforcing this boundary, you may find that you can do it earlier--tell her you won't discuss a subject (when it has already turned into a fight and an impasse, like the Dylan show), or will not discuss it the way she is bringing it up (abusively). Eventually she will realize that pushing you past this point just means that she is left alone every time, and you will find you don't have to actually leave as often.

Yes, work on validation too. Especially work on validating her and how she is feeling at times when you aren't in a conflict--it is much easier and more effective and more rewarding to validate at those times.

[globalnomad]

1. She's realized that when you leave, she doesn't have power over you... .so by kicking you out, she's trying to take back the power for herself... .and probably also hoping you will lose confidence in its effectiveness for you.

2. She does take stuff out on you as a way for her to cope. You are taking her coping mechanism off the table. That means that whatever she's feeling stressed and upset about, she has to find a new way to deal with, and in the mean time, it is bugging her more... .so she's going to push harder and try new things.

I suspected this was what was going on, but you have explained it better than I ever could have. Very helpful. I should be paying you the big bucks instead of my therapist, Grey Kitty

[Notwendy]

The mother saying she would have a nervous breakdown puts your wife in a bad position. It also isn't good for the baby to have a caretaker in victim mode. Wife, or you, then gets enlisted as a rescuer- must tend to baby so grandma doesn't have a breakdown. Many dysfunctional families operate on the Drama triangle and take on different roles in different situations.

It also doesn't help your wife to feel as if she is being judged if she doesn't pick up the baby right away. I do agree that tending to a baby's cries are important, but you know, sometimes a mom just can't get there immediately. So even if grandma is very helpful, your wife may feel judged and responsible for both the baby and her mother's feelings.

Maybe more validation would help, if it can be sincere and not patronizing. Also, we have different levels of tolerance. What can put one mother over the edge wouldn't upset another mother. I think we have to accept the nature of our partners when considering their role as caretakers.

But we can take care of ourselves. You can, and should, if all possible, see that Dylan concert.

[teapay]

I'd also agree that her telling you to leave is a continuation of the battle for control and that she is using you as a means to cope with insecurity and stress.  In many ways, the non is like a great big human pacifier for the BPD to sooth and bite down on.  If she asks you to leave by all means leave and enjoy the free time.  If she senses you are enjoying yourself during those times she might stop it.  Its all part of the relational gamesmanship many BPD play as they desperately try to control everything.

I have several thing I won't discuss or won't discuss long and they dont have to rise to the level of fighting or even arguing.  Particularly if they are irrational, false or the same all things we had discussed for years never getting anywhere, Ive stopped discussing them.  Some areas border on psycotic.  I'll discuss other things and occasionally we do have good discussion.  I'll just not these.  These are boundaries I have and I enforce them by not discussing these topics.  And I am much happier for it.  It is hard to look back and see how discussions of these things ever brought any happiness or improvement to the relationship.

[iluminati]

This is all a better state of affairs than a few months ago, when I would just decline invitations all the time for fear of triggering another big dysregulation. The problem though is that if I choose to do these things I then have to deal with the consequences and inevitable conflict, which are so draining as to make me wonder if it was all worth it in the first place. Are these type of behaviors the so-called "extinction bursts?"

The short answer is yes, next question.  The longer term answer has to do with her articulating her feelings.  Has she ever spoken out and made plain why she gets upset when you do things on your own?

To speak from my own experience, I remember one Sunday when my daughter was a baby I had a busy day.  Since I worked Tuesday to Saturday at the time, I had a busy day taking care of the baby, working out, cooking, then spending time watching my beloved Jets and playing video games.  In the middle I spent time with my then-wife and child as a family.  As a result, I couldn't make a planned meeting with my mom over some matter until later in the day.  Her response? You shouldn't have watched football! 

The rationale behind her fears (and your wife's I imagine) is that so long as I was with family or her, I wasn't out plotting on leaving her.  Of course, at the time, I was thinking no such thing, but that's what's going through her head.  If he's on his own, he'll find the first pretty young thing, take her to a semi-secluded corner, break her off raw dog and plan to move out within three days.  The sad part is that I'm not exaggerating.

[an0ught]

Hi globalnormad,

as iluminati indicated these are extinction burst but focusing on that is just focusing on the tactical level. As with all extinction burst it pays to act consistently. Game playing as a means to feel a little in control would not be an unusual coping mechanism but you know better, keep perspective and stay your course  .

If it would be a simple boundary/extinction burst matter you would have it behind you. As Notwendy stressed there are deeper issues at play. Being alone, distress tolerance, jealousy and anxiety all play a role. As a child she can grow out of this but as a spoiled child this will take real time.

Also what might be at play here is that the relationship is changing. The introduction of boundaries is transforming the couple from an enmeshed state to a state where there are two individuals. Depending on her socialization she may even be experiencing herself as an individual for the first time. Such a (from her side not called for but very much needed  ) transformation can be scary rising latent abandonment fear where it can surface at the slightest trigger.

Both consistent boundaries and validation to reconnect are very important now. It is certainly a confusing time for her. Things started changing and moving and are in flux. It may be time to focus your eyes for the first time on the medium to long term future and the type of relationship you want to have. You are setting up the structure for it right now. Keep that in mind.

[waverider]

I had huge problems with this. Even stopping off for a coffee after i had been "sent" out to do the shopping had me hiding this out fear of sneaking "my time" and not rushing home immediately.

Fast forward to today and i can take off in my kayak and go fishing nearly all day any day when i deem conditions are right and I have no other real committments, and there is no fuss.

How did i achieve this? Not by convincing her she was being unreasonable, or arguing the reasons why my time is my time and I have a right to it. Rather by just doing "my stuff" in small consistent incremental steps. Any "bad consequences" where her own doing. I always came back when I said I would, I never abandoned her, the world never came to an end. The extinction burst escalated right through self harm via cutting, overdosing, wild accusations of all kinds. All that though is tiring. It is a desperate attempt to fight off fear of an unknown, a perceived unknown. But there was no unknown. Her unknown was whether I was going to leave or abandon her. But I didn't and I demonstrated that, hence the unknown was vanquished along with the fear of it, and all the desperate actions to fight it.

In short she learned acceptance by experience, not negotiation or debating it, that I need my life, and by trade off I made less demands on her. It is a win win for both of us. Unfortunately when dealing with pwBPD it takes a rough lesson for that to be learned. The teacher just needs to be tougher than the student to finish the lesson.

This is what the Staying Boards are about, learning to be stronger to survive this never ending game of brinkmanship.

[teapay]

I would agree.  Same problem as WR, including the stopping for coffee, but worse was not also bringing home a coffee for her.  That was worse than than crucifyng the Savior.

I found too that staying the course, despite cutting, burning, suicide threats, or any other kind of blood letting was the only thing that brought any kind of results.  Validation is fine and dandy, but after validating til the cows come home and things are all peaceful like, go try and leave.  "Where the hell you going"?


If you're afraid to face it down you might as well hang it up .

[globalnomad]

The short answer is yes, next question.  The longer term answer has to do with her articulating her feelings.  Has she ever spoken out and made plain why she gets upset when you do things on your own?

Yes, she does speak out. Usually it is some variety or combination of:

- You spend more time doing (insert activity here) than you do with me and the baby. This means you don't care about me.

- Spending time doing (insert activity here) is a luxury. I don't want you wasting time on that when we still haven't (insert one of the million plans for the future we have not yet pinned down)

- We can't afford it. You shouldn't be wasting money doing activity x.

- I just don't want you to

I have tried probing deeper to figure out what the underlying anxiety is, but this usually triggers extreme rage or defensiveness. It seems to me to be triggering a very intense abandonment fear.

[globalnomad]

I would agree.  Same problem as WR, including the stopping for coffee, but worse was not also bringing home a coffee for her.  That was worse than than crucifyng the Savior.

That's a big one for me too. Anything unplanned, even a 10 minute detour to get coffee, is regarded as a betrayal. As a result, I ocasionally hide little inconsequential things like this. If she finds out it is world war three. Living in constant fear like this is obviously not a healthy or sustainable dynamic.

I like waverider's idea of small, consistent incremental steps.