When Should I Tell the kids their mom has BPD and bipolar?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi folks.  It's been a number of years since my last post.  I've been divorced from DexBPDw since Nov. 2011 and have 50/50 custody of my two kids, S16 and S11.

I'm concerned about S16.  He has always been close to his mom, and I'm concerned about his personal development.  He has no close friends, is less mature than S11, and is not active socially.  He is, however, extremely smart and nearly a straight-A student.

I'm here to ask you, the wonderful, giving people on this forum, for some advice.  I feel like S16 needs to know that there is something severely wrong with his mother.  She has BPD and bipolar, and I'm concerned that her negative self talk and lack of self esteem is causing him to be introverted because he lacks self esteem too.  She is exhaustively pessimistic and negative, blaming me and the world for all of her problems.

Do I tell him about her problems and risk burning my somewhat-decent relationship with his mother, or do I avoid the topic completely and just focus on trying to help his self esteem when I have him 50% of the time?  I feel like he needs to know at some point, but when?  I don't want to risk him losing out on life because his mother can't keep it together.

[empowered_dad]

Hi folks.  It's been a number of years since my last post.  I've been divorced from DexBPDw since Nov. 2011 and have 50/50 custody of my two kids, S16 and S11.

I'm concerned about S16.  He has always been close to his mom, and I'm concerned about his personal development.  He has no close friends, is less mature than S11, and is not active socially.  He is, however, extremely smart and nearly a straight-A student.

I'm here to ask you, the wonderful, giving people on this forum, for some advice.  I feel like S16 needs to know that there is something severely wrong with his mother.  She has BPD and bipolar, and I'm concerned that her negative self talk and lack of self esteem is causing him to be introverted because he lacks self esteem too.  She is exhaustively pessimistic and negative, blaming me and the world for all of her problems.

Do I tell him about her problems and risk burning my somewhat-decent relationship with his mother, or do I avoid the topic completely and just focus on trying to help his self esteem when I have him 50% of the time?  I feel like he needs to know at some point, but when?  I don't want to risk him losing out on life because his mother can't keep it together.

[scraps66]

This is not necessarily easy and probably based on each particular situation.  I know for me, subject of PAS, S8 and S11, S11 has pretty significant behavioral and emotional deficits, I have just this week started explaining a little more.  S11 told me the other night that he's, "not going to Camp P or the thing at Middle School where he goes a couple days a week in the summer to meet the teachers."  I said, "hmmm, I didn't know about these things."  I then went on to explain why it is important for parents to discuss these things, first, and that it is important that the child not be burdened with debating these activities directly with one parent.  That the debating is to be between parents only.  Not sure if this is right or wrong or the right time.  I think if you look at it from the perspective of validating feelings or the child's position, that is great.  This can be done without making reference to the specifics of the other parent's characteristics. 

[Nope]

I've learned while watching the kids go through school that they are almost always regurgitating information while not actually understanding it. I had an interesting conversation with my SD13 a couple of weeks ago about powers or the States vs. Federal powers. Something she had learned to regurgitate back to her civics teacher. When I explained to her specific instances where States made specific rules and when the Fed made rules that applied to all the States a lightbulb went on for her. Using terms like BPD and bipolar aren't going to teach a child what they are really seeing and if it gets back to BPDm it is likely to blow up in your face. It is much more useful to talk about the specific behaviors.

[Thunderstruck]

I agree with Nope.

My SD11 is very enmeshed with uBPDbm. If we were to say "uBPDbm has a mental disorder and needs therapy" SD11 would hear "We are saying 'bad' things about your mom because there is always a fight between us". She gets very defensive of uBPDmom if we even toe the line of saying anything about a mental disorder. So instead we focus on behaviors and what are normal and healthy versus unhealthy. We give examples of unhealthy behaviors as it relates to other people/situations and don't focus on her mom too much.

(even talking about her mom having unhealthy behaviors can trigger the defensiveness).

But on the flip side, SD11 has ranted about her mom needing psychological help on a few occasions. So even though most of the time she doesn't act like something is wrong with her mom, it's still in that brain of hers that there is something not right here.

[livednlearned]

Hi empowered dad,

Adding to what others have said (that there could be some enmeshment/stunted emotional development)... .Do you think your son may have an anxiety disorder? If his mom is dx'd with bipolar, it's possible there is some genetic stuff going on. It doesn't mean he'll develop bipolar himself, only that he may be more susceptible to anxiety disorders himself. Has he seen anyone to get assessed?

[empowered_dad]

This is great information.  After much thinking, I agree that it doesn't make sense to put labels on my ex.  It is better to describe her behaviors which will come across as empathy, not an attack.

I also agree with livednlearned that he may have an anxiety disorder.  His mother has one, and I have one as well.  It only makes sense.

Thanks for everyone's help.  This place is awesome. 

[livednlearned]

It is better to describe her behaviors which will come across as empathy, not an attack.

Even more effective is validating their response to mom's behavior. Ask them validating questions and they will learn to trust their own feelings and thoughts about what is ok and not ok. 

[ennie]

Phew, tough questions.  I have two stepdaughters, who turn 12 and 16 next month, and I can really relate (as can my DH!).  I am going to parse you Q out into three q's: 1) How do you help him work on self esteem? 2) How can you support his independence from mom? and 3) Will telling him about mom help these goals, and whether or not it will, when should he be told about her mental health issues?

Here are my suggestions:

1) Self esteem: 

Counseling: is he in counseling?  If not, this is a great way to get validation without it seeming to be mom v. dad--no loyalty bind!

Special person day:  In response to mom's constant pessimism and the impact on the kids, we started "Special Person Day."  We have a day a month dedicated to one of the people in our family.  We make presents, write things we love about them, and then spend an evening after dinner telling them how great they are.  This works wonders.  You do not have to call it that.

Expressing specific things you love about him, that are about him, and that are true.  "I love how fair you are."  "I love your sense of humor." 

2) Separating from mom:

This is a huge issues with our SD16.  She is very enmeshed.  Here are things I have done:

* Encourage her to be separate from me.  How?  I always knock before entering her room, make clear that I need her permission before borrowing her things, request the same respect of her. modeling what a non-enmeshed relationship looks like.

* Validate her disagreements with me.  Insist that she express them.  Help her finds words if she does not have them: "It sounds like you are really angry with me abut that."  Really let her know that it is okay for her to disagree with me, that I still love her, and that it is okay for her to see things differently and to be angry with me. 

* make and keep clear boundaries, with clear and loving explanations:  "I am not going to do it if you yell at me to get me to do it.  You can yell, but that is not going to move me.  I love you, but I do not want to help you learn to get what you want by yelling."  This helps model non-enmeshment and that love does not equal just saying yes. 

* Telling the kids how I see mom:  Because I have the ability to care about her even with her challenges, I can explain, in small doses, how I see her.  I do not find the label "BPD" works well... .but I can explain what emotional regulation is, and explain that we are all on a spectrum, mom in one extreme side, but some people are more intense. Saying that it hurt s my feelings when mom says that about me.  Letting them know what is scary for me.  Not judging her, but displaying what might be "normal" responses to someone who acts like she acts.  Also telling them what I like about their mom. 

Caution:  I think it is really important to understand that kids identify with their parents, which means that if you see a parent as bad, the kid sees you as seeing them as bad.  Your child has some of mom's ways as his own.  My goal with my SDs is to help them see and cope with their challenges, in some cases by telling them how I see them influenced by mom.  As they get older, they see their mom is different... .she got kicked out of SD15's graduation, for pete's sake!  But what they need is to know how to deal with those differences, and how to manage the ways they see that stuff in themselves.  They need to know that their mom is fine how she is, but that they (and I) do not need to make choices focused on her needs all the time.  Thy need to know that their mom is lovable even if I choose not to do as she wants.  They need to know that their needs matter, and that the fact that their mom has had some things happen in her life that make her focused on her own needs means she cannot always let them know they matter.  This is not their fault, and they do not need to fix their mom.  They need to be able to have permission to see their mom's weaknesses and not be bad, but also to know that the echoes of those weaknesses in themselves can be managed, loved, and that we can learn how to treat others better even with imperfections! 

3) When to tell about BPD diagnosis: I have wrestled with that one.  First, because kids identify with mom, it is really scary to learn that mom is mentally ill or dysfunctional in some way.  I think that it is more important to have their experience validated (by naming specific behaviors, rather than general diagnoses).  For example, I explain that because mom had serious abuse as a child, she tends to see things in a black and white way.  I explain that this is normal, that when we are terrified we operate from our brain stem instead of our rational mind, in the frontal lobes, and I explain what this looks like.  I explain that mom had a lot of scary experiences as a kid, and so her brain got stuck in that mode.  This means when mom is scared about your well-being, she tends to act intense ways, see things as black and white, get really upset.  This is not your fault, it is because her brain is seeing a normal thing as a survival issue. 

Giving words to this stuff helps the kids to process it.  IF mom is open to her diagnosis, I think it is easier to share that specific language and what it means.  In our case, mom rejects the diagnosis, so it is very controversial to mention it.  However, both girls are very open to hearing (some of the time, in small bites) about how I see what might be happening that makes mom act different.  It really helps to find the common ground:  "Remember when I saw that car coming and yelled at you to move, and grabbed you?  And then apologized later?  That was normal for someone who is scared, as I was because of the car.  Your mommy feels that way a lot more of the time, because of scary things that happened to her when she was learning how to see the world.' 

A counselor can also help to communicate neutral ways of understanding mom's differences. 

From what you say, your 16 year old son is emotionally not mature, which means he probably is not separated from mom.  Thus, he will only be able to take in a little bit about mom without feeling his own feelings.  Your words area likely to be heard as criticism.  He probably has a hard time knowing or feeling ways mom is difficult for him.  He has to have some of that ability on his own before your words make sense.  When my SD15 could say, "Mommy is hard for me sometimes too, but I love her more than anything!"  I knew that she was ready to hear more.  Then, I could explain that her drinking was scary for me. Before that, mom's reality was the only one, so what I said just made her mad.  Before the signs she is starting to separate, I communicated only in I messages/non-violent communication, no assessment:  When your mom yelled at me at your play, I felt scared and sad. 

I feel angry when your mom said that to you.

I also try to only have these conversations when I am calm. 

Now that SD15 is starting to separate from mom, I am giving her more info.  i talk about how her mom uses shame with herself and others, and how I think that impacts SD15.  She is open to it.  But I do not talk diagnosis. 

I think my own sense is that when she is no longer living with mom, I will give her the book "Understanding the Borderline Mother."  Because I have named mom's behaviors, in neutral ways that she understands, I think she will recognize easily mom as BPD.  I will then explain she was diagnosed, but rejects that diagnosis.  I think I will do that, rather than or in addition to DH, because she really relies on my judgment and perspective of mom, because I am insightful and fair. 

In sum, I do not think just telling the kids a diagnosis means much to them at this age.  For 8-12 year olds, I think that the most important thing is validating their feelings, and communicating mine in a non-judgememnntal way, so there is permission to be who they are.

As the frontal lobes develop in teen years, I think the critical info is to empathetically note and name what mom is doing... ."Wow, she really yelled loud."  "Your mom was asked to leave because another person was frightened when your mom said she would push her down the stairs." 

And, I also think when a teen starts to separate, letting them know it is okay to see mom's differences without judging her.  That the fact her capacity is limited does not make her bad. 

Finally, I think it is important to help your child learn how to respond to a BPD person, and how to manage similar feelings or behaviors in themselves.  This has to be done with love and empathy to be effective. 

I am not sure the diagnosis is important if the child is living with the parent, and if the parent rejects the diagnosis.  This is just likely to lead to conflict.  I think if my SD is more separated before she moves out of our home, I may re-think this and give her the book... .but the critical element is that she can see mom does things a way that does not work well for her, and that mom is not bad, and that she (sD15) has options to do things differently.  There is so much stigma against mental illness in our culture, not to mention against BPD in the mental health world, that knowing that diagnosis without education about what a diagnosis means, how it is useful, and that the person with one is still a whole human being, tends to reinforce negative judgment and fear rather than providing tools for coping with a BPD parent, which is what we are here to help happen--we are not here to condemn a mentally unhealthy person, or to collude with anger and judgment we share with our kids.

Hope this helps. 

[empowered_dad]

Thanks ennie.  So much to digest here.  All good stuff.  I will jump into this in more detail tomorrow. 

[livednlearned]

My son experienced an almost cathartic sense of relief when I explained that there might be something else, a psychological condition, that his dad struggled with. At that point, S14 knew his dad had a substance abuse problem. Except, he also knew his dad was not drinking when he was at N/BPDx's house. So how to explain this other stuff his dad seemed to have going on?

I talked about what to do, about the potential diagnosis and telling S14, with my therapist's counsel. Eventually, I told my son when he was emotionally baffled by his dad's behavior, and openly trying to figure it out. It was the right time to mention it. There have been many, many more times when it would not have been the right time to mention it, when it could have badly backfired.

I also did it very, very carefully because of custody issues going on. I did not want S14 going to his dad and saying, "Hey, I know you're bipolar and BPD." And then having that escalate things.

Plus, there is always the possibility that S14 will struggle with mental health issues of his own. When I told him about his dad's condition, I made sure to say that it wasn't the condition that was so difficult, it was the fact he would not seek treatment. He has a choice to get well and let people who love him support him as he gets healthy. And he made the decision that it was too hard, too difficult to do that.

We have to understand that is his choice and then make healthy choices for ourselves, like living separately where we feel safe.