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Author Topic: Not playing on the same team.  (Read 453 times)
JohnLove
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« on: April 07, 2016, 04:42:15 PM »

When my SO and I (and others I know) attend a movie theatre, the seats are always allocated on the ticket but as it is never sold out, so we often choose to sit where it is comfortable to view the movie.

Last night my pwBPD and I attended a performance by a famous artist. I had purchased a couple of seats in the silver section (not cheap, raised area) immediate row behind the gold section (same seats just closer to the stage). The entire floor area in front of the raised seats (with many rows) was also gold section. It was very crowded around our seats. Tricky to get into and out of... .especially when someone wanted to leave to get drinks, etc. Several rows in front there was a number of unoccupied seats (in the gold section). I wanted to move there after the support act. My SO didn't want to be embarrased by having occupied someone else's seat and be asked to move. These seats were clearly not taken and the doors were closed for the main performance.

To add insult to injury there was also a large man next to me. He was bumping and grinding in his seat and clapping his hands. This was causing the cojoined seats to move around. Far be it from me to stop someone having a good time but for me it was really detracting from the performance. It was supposed to be a romantic evening and the performer certainly played right into that.  

I should add that my SO does not like crowds and does not enjoy at all being jostled and at a street parade a few weeks earlier that very thing occurred and I had to deal with it as there was over 100,000 people at this event and it was difficult to get (and hold) a spot for some people. I have very clear boundaries when it comes to personal space. Some people do not. This was tested this evening while in close proximity to another couple in a crowded setting. He was bumping and pushing my SO and eventually he got the message that his behaviour was not OK. It was somewhat funny. This was resolved sucessfully.

At this performance I wanted to move to the unoccupied seats in front where there would be spare seats either side of us. My SO flatly refused. Over and over. I tried to reason with her. She did not want to be "embarrased" or "humiliated" by sitting in unallocated seats or by being asked to move.

I am not so ignorant that I can't see that her disorder played a part in this. Although I didnt agree with her position before the concert, I didnt agree during, and I still don't agree now. I unhappily accepted her stance at the time, but the evening could've been FAR more enjoyable had we moved before the main act. This has caused some resentment on my part. Not romantic. Grrr... .:'(

Instead she offered to swap seats so she was sitting next to this slightly obnoxious man (trying to be kind here). She would not like this. I eventually took her up on this as he was bumping and rubbing up against me and I wasnt enjoying it. The performance had some people out of their seats dancing but not jumping about in their seats. It wasn't really this kind of performance but at least he sat still for the ballads.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I will also advise readers that this event has triggered me from situations in the past and in the days earlier. We made attending this performance a short break and stayed the day before and after in our capital city. We (read: I) had a very loose itenerary and my triggering occured because whenever I asked my SO what do you want to do she would respond "whatever you want to do" or "I'm following you". Everything on our trip focused around attending this performance. CLEARLY my SO did not want to do what I wanted or "follow me" when it suited HER. I started to feel as though when she did not "enjoy" my impromptu activities she felt she had a right to complain. I voiced this to her before we went back to ready ourselves for the evening.

... .and this is related to a very traumatic and abusive event (for me) which I haven't posted about (still procesing that hurt and humiliation) that occurred 8 weeks ago which involved our intimate partner relationship being terminated in a catastrophic, abusive, and destructive way for the SECOND time (in 4 years). I gave us another chance 2 yeads ago. She now wants "us" back AGAIN. It stinks of abusive behaviour and then a recycle, but I am not someone's trash to be "recycled". She wants to make it up to me. I'm not sure how... .but I told her what I needed and she was obstructive and argumentative the whole way. This experience reeked of the same. It has "only" been 8 weeks and now I dont believe she even has a clue despite being told of my needs and my hopes for our future.  :'(

I feel this could be interpreted by readers as me being a rule breaker (sometimes true Smiling (click to insert in post) ) or me creating a storm in a teacup... .but we both would've really enjoyed the evening a LOT more if she had just "followed along" with my wishes. I felt the evening was pretty much ruined. Now I feel it is what it is. Typing this out has probably helped.

I want to be on the same team. That takes both players. I might be persuaded that she was holding a healthy boundary  but what "healthy" boundary comes at the expense of both partners? 

I would really appreciate others perspectives on this.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2016, 08:38:13 PM »

When my SO and I (and others I know) attend a movie theatre, the seats are always allocated on the ticket but as it is never sold out, so we often choose to sit where it is comfortable to view the movie.

You gave a very long explanation... .and ended with a request for perspective... .

My perspective is this--your SO was very afraid of being asked to move. This bothered her more than the bad seats you and she had.

You told her that nobody was going to ask her to move. You JADEd all over the place about it. She was even more invalidated, and stuck to her position.

If you had validated her, she might have calmed down and even agreed with you and moved. Or maybe not.

If you had believed that her feelings were real and valid, and stopped trying to convince her, you would have only been upset about your seats, not had the conflict also mess up your evening.


This part has me really confused:

Excerpt
... .and this is related to a very traumatic and abusive event (for me) which I haven't posted about (still procesing that hurt and humiliation) that occurred 8 weeks ago which involved our intimate partner relationship being terminated in a catastrophic, abusive, and destructive way for the SECOND time (in 4 years). I gave us another chance 2 yeads ago. She now wants "us" back AGAIN. It stinks of abusive behaviour and then a recycle, but I am not someone's trash to be "recycled". She wants to make it up to me. I'm not sure how... .but I told her what I needed and she was obstructive and argumentative the whole way. This experience reeked of the same. It has "only" been 8 weeks and now I dont believe she even has a clue despite being told of my needs and my hopes for our future.  :'(

Perhaps that would explain why you were triggered at the movie theater, but that is a whole different issue. If you say it is related, I'll believe you, but I sure don't understand how without more explanation.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 09:42:03 AM »

My SO didn't want to be embarrased by having occupied someone else's seat and be asked to move. These seats were clearly not taken and the doors were closed for the main performance.

I personally don't find this unreasonable and I am not clear why you would see it as such?

To add insult to injury there was also a large man next to me. He was bumping and grinding in his seat and clapping his hands. This was causing the cojoined seats to move around. Far be it from me to stop someone having a good time but for me it was really detracting from the performance. It was supposed to be a romantic evening and the performer certainly played right into that.  

Being it was a crowded theater do you think maybe your expectations for a romantic evening were a bit ambitious?   

At this performance I wanted to move to the unoccupied seats in front where there would be spare seats either side of us. My SO flatly refused. Over and over. I tried to reason with her. She did not want to be "embarrased" or "humiliated" by sitting in unallocated seats or by being asked to move.

I am not so ignorant that I can't see that her disorder played a part in this. Although I didnt agree with her position before the concert, I didnt agree during, and I still don't agree now. I unhappily accepted her stance at the time, but the evening could've been FAR more enjoyable had we moved before the main act. This has caused some resentment on my part. Not romantic. Grrr... .:'(

The evening might have been far more enjoyable for you but not for her.  Do you think your continued pushing her to move to the gold seats maybe made the evening even less enjoyable?

Instead she offered to swap seats so she was sitting next to this slightly obnoxious man (trying to be kind here). She would not like this. I eventually took her up on this as he was bumping and rubbing up against me and I wasnt enjoying it. The performance had some people out of their seats dancing but not jumping about in their seats. It wasn't really this kind of performance but at least he sat still for the ballads.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

This was very accommodating and IMO thoughtful gesture on her part.  I am curious why you do not see it as such?

I feel this could be interpreted by readers as me being a rule breaker (sometimes true Smiling (click to insert in post) ) or me creating a storm in a teacup... .but we both would've really enjoyed the evening a LOT more if she had just "followed along" with my wishes. I felt the evening was pretty much ruined. Now I feel it is what it is. Typing this out has probably helped.

How do you know she would have enjoyed the evening a lot more if you had moved seats?  I think your analogy of the storm in a teacup is accurate here.  You paid for the silver seats, were unhappy with them and then made a huge issue out of moving to empty gold seats that clearly made your SO extremely uncomfortable.   Why was it so important for you to push her into doing what you wanted? 
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JohnLove
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2016, 08:31:13 PM »

Thanks for your considered response Grey Kitty.

You gave a very long explanation... .and ended with a request for perspective... .

My perspective is this--your SO was very afraid of being asked to move. This bothered her more than the bad seats you and she had.

You told her that nobody was going to ask her to move. You JADEd all over the place about it. She was even more invalidated, and stuck to her position.

If you had validated her, she might have calmed down and even agreed with you and moved. Or maybe not.

If you had believed that her feelings were real and valid, and stopped trying to convince her, you would have only been upset about your seats, not had the conflict also mess up your evening.

The long explanation was to try and convey MY perspective. To allow the reader to get inside my head, so to speak. The request sought was for other humans perspectives on my situation. Relationships with someone suffering a personality disorder can get messy and confusing for all sorts of reasons. I felt a need to check myself.  

Yes. FEAR is probably spot on. I have now considered this. It appeared she was just being combative and argumentative. This is certainly true in other situations.

The seats weren't THAT bad... .after all, I handpicked them myself with an agent rather than have them allocated online. I had high hopes for the evening and my SO is a private type of person. She doesn't enjoy crowds. She gets stressed in close proximity to strangers. She becomes anxious in unfamiliar environments. We ticked all these boxes and more.  

Well, I was 99.999% sure no one would. I had scoped these seats. I am not sure that I did JADE all over the place but I would probably agree that I didn't validate enough  although validation is easy for me to comprehend, practicing it effectively can be much more difficult. Although I believe I am a natural validator I have only known of the formal practice for a little over 2 years. I am happy to hear your specifics where I went wrong if you have the inclination. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Her feelings WERE real and valid... .and I believe I validated them. I addressed her concerns in my "invalidation". I guess I was also being invalidated by her. I fully understand we were not allocated those seats. I have since spoke to a close couple I know about this. The wife was in agreeance with her. The (strong Christian) husband understood they were not "our" seats... .but said he would have been easily persuaded.

I believe I validated. We arrived on time but the (another famous artist we both enjoy very much) started early... .? We entered the dark auditorium and I grabbed the first spare seats in our row. Just before the main performance was about to start the people that "owned" these seats showed up with the usher to find theirs. And I handled that little faux paus with aplomb... .but I expect her "fears" WERE triggered by that event. Sigh.

She was calm... .but steadfast. I do not believe any level of validation would have changed things... .and that's why I did not persist past the point of reasonable.

I was not that upset about our seats. She and I have many pressures and responsibilities in our lives. This was a short break that centred around this evening and I saw an opportunity to add many extra (and unexpected) points to our experience.



The last part IS me off on a tangent. We had an dreadful experience late Jan where we weren't really on the same team at a family function of hers. I was badly assaulted by a drunk, aggressive (even when not drunk) alcoholic, mentally ill family member. She stayed at that weekend (centred around this person), while I was escorted off the property. I had to attend police and a doctor with my outcome. I did not hear from her for nearly a week afterwards (there was no mobile reception at the location for what that's worth) when previously we spent all our spare time together. She broke off the relationship so she could do what she liked and spend time with this... .ahem... ."person". Essentially her telling me she would go without me, then not involving me, then telling me she couldn't do it without me... .and then discarding anything I had to say and finally discarding me like garbage in the worst possible way under the worst possible circumstances.  

Not playing on the same team. Now we have no OFFICIAL relationship. Just still acting and behaving like we do... .with a few changes.
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JohnLove
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2016, 08:47:24 PM »

Hello C.Stein. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

She was not being unreasonable... .but I had an expectation for her to follow my leadership even if I may have been "wrong" in her mind. That is what true friends (and partners) do in my opinion. Have each others back.

The seats where I had scoped were not crowded. The artist was turning it on. He had ladies swooning. It was romantic despite anything I did. 

I did stop trying to convince her. I did see her suggestion as thoughtful and that's why after a short time and an initial refusal I availed myself. The evening went for 3 hours and I probably spent 20 minutes on this all up. I let it go but I was clearly miffed about it... .after being personally invalidated by her. I let her sit next to Mr. Ants in his Pants... .and interestingly she never complained once. I was happier. She maintained her position. We enjoyed ourselves... .but not to the extent that I believed we would have otherwise. It was still a win.

But you decide. While the "conflict" might have detracted from the evening I might add at this point that the performer in question actually approached the area with these seats early in his performance. We would have been up close and personal with a artist we very much both enjoy that also has an awesome sense of humour. He covers and also sang one of her favourite Elvis songs. It is a Love song. I would have serenaded it to her. This was not possible in the seats we were in without potentially disturbing the enjoyment of the other patrons. We both lost the opportunity for those very memorable experiences.

I guess I have to ask myself have we BOTH been invalidated? 

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2016, 11:29:53 PM »

Well, I was 99.999% sure no one would. I had scoped these seats. I am not sure that I did JADE all over the place but I would probably agree that I didn't validate enough  although validation is easy for me to comprehend, practicing it effectively can be much more difficult. Although I believe I am a natural validator I have only known of the formal practice for a little over 2 years. I am happy to hear your specifics where I went wrong if you have the inclination. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I've improved my own validation skills a lot... .I didn't grow up in a family where validation was all that common, and I didn't pick it up naturally at all. And for me, JADEing was very natural, and took some effort to break the habit, and I still catch myself doing it once in a while. And that's after working at it since I showed up here four years ago!

You were long on explanations, but short on dialog, so I'm kind guessing about where you were JADEing. Two things make me suspect you did a bit of it:

At this performance I wanted to move to the unoccupied seats in front where there would be spare seats either side of us. My SO flatly refused. Over and over. I tried to reason with her.

Tried to reason with her sounds a lot like EXPLAINING. That she refused "over and over" means you kept at it, rather than accept her first refusal.

My other reason is that there is a lot that has that "explaining" feel to it in your last two responses to me and C. Stein, so I'm guessing it is a habit you've still got.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2016, 09:00:50 AM »

She was not being unreasonable... .but I had an expectation for her to follow my leadership even if I may have been "wrong" in her mind. That is what true friends (and partners) do in my opinion. Have each others back.

I don't see this as having each others back.  If you were to suggest jumping off the Eiffel Tower would you expect her to follow?  True friends and partners reach a compromise that is acceptable to both.  It may not make either party entirely happy but the compromise is an acceptable alternative to one being happy and one not.  In the end you did reach a compromise and that is good but not before a lot of unnecessary conflict.

But you decide. While the "conflict" might have detracted from the evening I might add at this point that the performer in question actually approached the area with these seats early in his performance. We would have been up close and personal with a artist we very much both enjoy that also has an awesome sense of humour. He covers and also sang one of her favourite Elvis songs. It is a Love song. I would have serenaded it to her. This was not possible in the seats we were in without potentially disturbing the enjoyment of the other patrons. We both lost the opportunity for those very memorable experiences.

If the gold seats would have provided a more memorable experience then why didn't you purchase them in the first place?  The thing that would have bothered me about wanting to move is this.  What right do I have to take seats I didn't pay for while everyone else in lesser seats have just as much right to those seats as I do?

I guess I have to ask myself have we BOTH been invalidated?

This is a good question and consider this.  Your SO set a boundary and you attempted to bust it.  If you felt invalidated by her defending her boundary you might want to ask yourself why.
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JohnLove
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2016, 04:02:57 PM »

Grey Kitty, I feel I am a natural validatior, but only learnt of the formal process of validation a little over 2 years ago. You may be ahead of me.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I believe I may resort to JEing when all my own attempts at validation fail. That's JADEing without the accusing and defending part.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Trying to reason appears to me a lot like trying to be reasonable.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

You're correct when you say I didn't accept her first refusal... .or the second, or third 

Explaining is my way to help others to understand where I am coming from in this complicated thing called life.

Thanks again.

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JohnLove
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2016, 04:50:44 PM »

Maybe that was a poor choice of words, but being TOGETHER on the issue at hand is a better perspective. This has been a touchy subject with me due to her previous negative behaviour. She was acting out of fear. Not a good place. I respected that... .after a period. I was the one who compromised... .to the detriment of both of us.

The Eiffel Tower analogy reminds me of the "if he jumped off a cliff" analogy often explained to children when they make less than ideal choices compromising their physical safety... .except we're adults and no one is being put in any real danger. No one's safety is being compromised but I now understand from Grey Kitty's response that she really was acting out of fear as if her safety WAS  being compromised. (She is a WAIF if that helps). I "knew" that at the time because I felt a little myself but I believed we shouldn't let fear stop us. I was trying to live a little.  

I did consider the gold seats. The first concert was a sell out. They subsequently added another night that also almost sold out. The venue looked crowded when I booked. So I purchased silver seats in the immediate row behind the last gold row to save us both some $$. Almost gold if you will.  

And that would be the correct moral choice to make, C.Stein. And if I witnessed someone else "pinch" them I would not complain. A lot of life is first in, best dressed. A true victimless crime.  

I did repeatedly consider if my SO was enacting a healthy boundary... .except I suspected and it has now been clearly shown that she was acting out of fear. In my opinion that is far less than ideal place to operate from or make considered choices. And no I haven't forgotten she is dBPD.

I believe healthy boundaries come from another place. I was the one keeping her safe. I understand that she didn't feel "safe" and nothing I said helped her to feel "safe"... .even though the evening was my idea, I took her, and I WAS protecting her although she probably felt I was not due to her FEAR. Her fear is not completely irrational... .but it's one row away from the gold seats.  

Interestingly, we haven't talked about the evening since. We normally would. I wanted to. I have pics. I wonder if that is now shame (on her part) operating?

Thanks for your input on my situation and challenging me to do better or be better. I do appreciate it.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2016, 05:20:28 PM »

i have been on both sides of similar issues as this and unfortunately if either parties puts up with it they will have a distracted and hence degraded and uncomfortable time. For issues is based on discomfort and distraction, hers is based on an inability to relax due to anxiety. Both issues are real

I guess the only real solution so everyone can relax would be be for you to move yourself without making an issue or guilt tripping. You can only control you and your preferences.
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C.Stein
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2016, 05:59:08 AM »

The Eiffel Tower analogy reminds me of the "if he jumped off a cliff" analogy often explained to children when they make less than ideal choices compromising their physical safety... .except we're adults and no one is being put in any real danger. No one's safety is being compromised but I now understand from Grey Kitty's response that she really was acting out of fear as if her safety WAS  being compromised. (She is a WAIF if that helps). I "knew" that at the time because I felt a little myself but I believed we shouldn't let fear stop us. I was trying to live a little.

John, the analogy was more to illustrate that you have relegated her to a role of follower instead of equal.  You expected her to do what you wanted without question and her opinion was irrelevant.

I did repeatedly consider if my SO was enacting a healthy boundary... .except I suspected and it has now been clearly shown that she was acting out of fear. In my opinion that is far less than ideal place to operate from or make considered choices. And no I haven't forgotten she is dBPD.

I believe healthy boundaries come from another place.

I don't believe it is your place to decide if her boundaries are healthy or not.  This suggests you believe you are in control of deciding which of her boundaries you can ignore.  They are her boundaries and you have to respect them regardless of the reasons she has for them.

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