Phone calls

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Oh phone calls. They seem to be an issue with many of our pwBPD. It's a means of control and gatekeeping.

For probably 3 years we have SD call uBPDbm nightly when she is with us. DH has asked that the favor be returned. It never is. So every night at 8pm he tries uBPDbm's phone and SD11's facebook messenger. He leaves voicemails with both if they don't answer. Then he follows up with a message in OFW. Then he does the whole thing over again at 9pm. Sometimes SD answers around 9. Rarely she'll call back after the missed call at 8. uBPDbm has stopped answering all together and usually sends DH straight to voicemail (probably blocked).

uBPDbm sent a raging letter this morning demanding that DH stop calling at 9pm and stop calling her phone altogether. So DH is restricted to only being "allowed" to call SD11's facebook between 8pm and 8:30pm. Mind you, she is using an ipod so she can only answer if she is at home with wifi.   

So today I wanted to try an experiment. Do unto uBPDbm as she has done unto us. We told her that we won't be having SD call nightly, that uBPDbm can not call DH's phone, and if she would like to talk to SD then she is free to call SD's facebook. (uBPDbm won't give us the password, so... .).

This was the reply:

"I don't prevent her calling you. But I have no way to call her when she's there unless she calls me. You have a way to contact her.

Don't be a jerk. SD11 can call me from your phone. She can call you from mine. You would be preventing her from calling me, which is something I've NEVER done."



DH will probably be the "responsible parent" and have SD11 call her mom at 8pm tonight anyway. But I loved seeing her call us jerks and saying we're preventing phone contact when we say we'll do the same thing that she's doing.  

[Thunderstruck]

Oh phone calls. They seem to be an issue with many of our pwBPD. It's a means of control and gatekeeping.

For probably 3 years we have SD call uBPDbm nightly when she is with us. DH has asked that the favor be returned. It never is. So every night at 8pm he tries uBPDbm's phone and SD11's facebook messenger. He leaves voicemails with both if they don't answer. Then he follows up with a message in OFW. Then he does the whole thing over again at 9pm. Sometimes SD answers around 9. Rarely she'll call back after the missed call at 8. uBPDbm has stopped answering all together and usually sends DH straight to voicemail (probably blocked).

uBPDbm sent a raging letter this morning demanding that DH stop calling at 9pm and stop calling her phone altogether. So DH is restricted to only being "allowed" to call SD11's facebook between 8pm and 8:30pm. Mind you, she is using an ipod so she can only answer if she is at home with wifi.   

So today I wanted to try an experiment. Do unto uBPDbm as she has done unto us. We told her that we won't be having SD call nightly, that uBPDbm can not call DH's phone, and if she would like to talk to SD then she is free to call SD's facebook. (uBPDbm won't give us the password, so... .).

This was the reply:

"I don't prevent her calling you. But I have no way to call her when she's there unless she calls me. You have a way to contact her.

Don't be a jerk. SD11 can call me from your phone. She can call you from mine. You would be preventing her from calling me, which is something I've NEVER done."



DH will probably be the "responsible parent" and have SD11 call her mom at 8pm tonight anyway. But I loved seeing her call us jerks and saying we're preventing phone contact when we say we'll do the same thing that she's doing.  

[rarsweet]

MY God, are they all the same?

[Nope]

I agree with Rarsweet's rhetorical question. My DH's ex would have responded exactly the same way word for word. She accused DH of intentionally having the kids in the car during her call time when the order says they should be able to be in another room to have privacy if they want. (She missed their call and called back late when they were traveling.) DH pointed out in his emailed response that the kids have been in a car with her and her boyfriend for nearly every single phone call he's had with them while they have been in her care. She never responded back.

[bravhart1]

I might be stepping out of bounds here, but... .why does a 11year old have to call her mom EVERY night? Even when our SD was five, six, seven, she was not calling her mom for like five days straight and she was not tramatized by it. The calls to mom when she did do them WERE traumatic so that's why we stopped. I think daily calls are keeping exBpdM too much in your space and head of SD. I think she needs a break.

My two cents

[supermum]

My exBPDh had it written in our separation agreement that the kids would contact him by phone every night that they did not see him between 7-9pm. I hate it. It means that he knows where I am all the time. He is always asking "what is mum doing?"

My S4 won't talk, that was an issue at first but exBPDh has seemed to accept it. My D6 doesn't love it either. She shows that she is happier when she gets the voicemail and doesn't have to have a conversation.

[Thunderstruck]

Like I said, we started the daily calls around 3 years ago and had planned to keep it that way until a final order. It was the easiest way to show "Hey, we're reasonable and responsible parents. We cooperate. uBPDbm does not."

uBPDbm is using it as a way to say "SD11 hates DH and doesn't want to call him and I can't make her. She's the one who refuses to talk to him." 

uBPDbm hasn't read any of our responses about the calls. We told her "Hey, we both need to agree to do the same thing. We've asked you to pick up the phone and have SD call nightly. You refuse. So let's do things your way." She didn't provide SD's facebook password. We were busy last night and friday night so we didn't have SD call her mom.

Then she sent a big raging message this morning full of threats and accusations. She said we are refusing to let SD call her mom and she has "no way" of contacting her. She said if SD11 doesn't call her tonight then she will delete the facebook messenger so DH will have no way to contact her.

[bravhart1]

Call me devils advocate here but, since she doesn't let DH talk to SD anyway is losing the Facebook really a threat? I'd take any ammo away by just saying do what you need to do. We are simply following your lead.

I've discovered that trying to look like the reasonable parent doesn't really matter as long as you aren't doing anything overly bad to other parent you are fine. We sent super calm reassuring emails to BPDm in response to her vile ugly ones to show the CE and court and they DID NOT CARE!

They DID care about her vile emails though, so take less sh*t is the lesson here. It makes you happier and it puts the onus of borderlines behaviour back on them where it belongs, and our therapist says that it helps SD see that BPDm can be stood up to without the sky falling.

[rarsweet]

I don't understand it? How do they have any life? Do they not do sports because they have to make a call? Or sleepover friends' houses? Or just go out to dinner with the other parent?

[Thunderstruck]

I don't understand it? How do they have any life? Do they not do sports because they have to make a call? Or sleepover friends' houses? Or just go out to dinner with the other parent?

We make it a point to stop whatever we're doing around 8 (even if we're out to dinner or with friends/family) and have SD call her mom. Yes, it's annoying. This weekend we had family visiting Friday night (SD's cousins from out of town) and went to a movie Saturday night so SD forgot all about the calls. She didn't say anything until bedtime last night (too late to call per uBPDbm's raging messages) "I forgot to call my mom".

We sent messages to uBPDbm "Hey, it's 8pm. Did you still want to talk to SD? We still haven't gotten her facebook password from you." Of course nothing. She's really enjoying being the victim right now. 

This facebook password thing is ridiculous. She is guarding it like it's nuclear launch codes.

[ForeverDad]

I might be stepping out of bounds here, but... .why does a 11year old have to call her mom EVERY night? Even when our SD was five, six, seven, she was not calling her mom for like five days straight and she was not traumatized by it. The calls to mom when she did do them WERE traumatic so that's why we stopped. I think daily calls are keeping exBpdM too much in your space and head of SD. I think she needs a break.

Think back to the days when we didn't have cell phones.  I doubt any court ordered daily calls, not unless the parents were walking around with pockets full of dimes and quarters.  That's why the standard boilerplate, intentionally vague, is "reasonable telephone contact".  But cell phones have enabled abuse of the intent of such clauses.  My experience... .

Unless tightened, most orders probably have a generic phrase "reasonable telephone contact.  What would your court consider "reasonable"?  When it became an issue in my case (my cell phone died in the middle of my 5 day stretch of parenting time and my ex claimed she couldn't make contact for the entire 5 days (I had changed my cell's greeting to instruct callers to use the house phone and we called her on the last day so it couldn't have been more than Fri pm to Sun pm  ) and the magistrate ordered daily telephone contact, even during vacations.  Quite over the top but my court felt it was justified to change 'reasonable' to 'daily'.

Unfortunately technology - and cell phones in particular - have introduced problems that never existed in decades past.

Back about in 2009 my cell phone died on a July Friday afternoon from a few drops of water while on a rafting trip with my son and his daycare group.  He was with me from Wednesday pm to Monday am.  His mother hadn't called until then so I put a greeting on the phone that the phones had troubles and to call the house phone instead.  Late Sunday night I was curious that she had never called and so checked for messages.  Sure enough, there were 2 or 3 angry messages, "I want to speak with My Son!"  In order to leave a message she had to listen to my greeting.   So Monday morning I called her and let them talk.  At most it could have been 2.5 days.  That was it, right?  Of course not... .

Ex had filed a Contempt case and we had a previously scheduled hearing midweek with a new magistrate who had little patience with either of us.  So of course ex starts off complaining she couldn't call her son for FIVE days.   The hearing started late and so soon the magistrate told us we'd have to come back to finish but "I'll fix the telephone issue now".  Without even asking my side of ex's inaccurate and very distorted story, she made an order replacing "reasonable telephone contact" with "daily telephone contact between 8:00 to 8:30 pm".  That put a crimp into just about every evening activity, going to movies, outings religious services, etc.

Immediately the issue of my upcoming vacation to the Rocky Mountains with our son came up.  I told ex we would likely not be in cell range much of the time while we traveled and camped there.  She said, "I get my calls!"

I ended up filing for custody and a year later we were in court for the Change of Circumstances testimony.  Her lawyer quizzed me about my complaint that she was difficult about telephone calls and that I was heading to the mountains again.

Me:    "There are large areas of the mountains we will be traveling in that don't have cell reception."

Ex's L: "How do you know?"

Me:    "I was there a couple years ago."

Ex's L: ":)o you know there isn't reception now?"

Me:    "Surely it isn't much better."

Ex's L: "Have you checked?"

Me:    "I'll see what's available with my carrier.  Can't know for sure without being there."

O, for the good old days where the only phones on vacation were pay phones and I can't imagine people back then required to drop in rolls of quarters daily for calls back to the other parent.  How did it go from a peaceful vacation away from the hassles of life to being saddled with driving into town at specific times for a phone call that may or may not be answered?  Sadly, if it can be done now then today you're expected to do what was never done before.

Side note... .I was in the old town of Sutter's Creek in California a couple years ago and guess what... .no cell reception downtown!  It is in a small valley and apparently signals didn't reach there.

It was not until late 2013 when I specifically mentioned the telephone hassles to a different magistrate handling my motion for majority time that "reasonable" was restored.

My advice is to keep "reasonable" in the order... .but better defined!

I don't understand it? How do they have any life? Do they not do sports because they have to make a call? Or sleepover friends' houses? Or just go out to dinner with the other parent?

I too faced that daily phone call issue.  It was 8:00 to 8:30 pm.  Every day.  Now, in addition to those events, tell me how we could go to a theater for an evening movie?

I have had daily calls in force from mid-2009 (one magistrate) as described above but modified at end-2013 (another magistrate) to "Each parent shall have reasonable telephone contact with the child... .If the child is out of town, the child will call the parent not exercising parenting time reasonably close to... ." (Italics were used by the magistrate.)

My suggestion is that if the daily calls aren't in the order, then modify it to what works for you.  If it is in the order, then next time you're in court, present it as an ongoing issue and propose a solution.  If you can document that the calls are only succeeding for one parent, to avoid a "he-said, she-said" impasse, then you would have to find a non-standard approach.  Even if D were given a phone to get calls from dad, I would expect successful calls to still be zero.

[Nope]

We will be dealing with the whole phone call issue ourselves. Right now it's mandatory three times a week on specific days and at a specific time. The order says that the parties must be flexible and take into account the children's schedules and the schedule of the party not having parenting time. So every single time the kid's activity schedules change (new sport season, kid will be in a school play, etc) BPDm has a brand new meltdown about how often DH changes the schedule and makes her threats about what she'll do if DH continues to change things instead of "following the court order". 

Then if he has to change a call time for one instance (kiddo has a school dance she wants to attend that night for example) BPDm has a meltdown about her phone calls being sacred. But then there are nights where she simply won't answer when they call or she'll send DH a text telling him not to have them call because she will be " busy". So we will soon be working with an L to get this fixed. It's a new L and he hasn't spoken with her yet and seems to think we can get this settled out of court. Guess we'll see.

[ForeverDad]

So we will soon be working with an L to get this fixed. It's a new L and he hasn't spoken with her yet and seems to think we can get this settled out of court. Guess we'll see.

• Testing by fire



• Learning experience



• Reasoning with her will be like trying to get milk out of a stone (old fable)

[Nope]

So we will soon be working with an L to get this fixed. It's a new L and he hasn't spoken with her yet and seems to think we can get this settled out of court. Guess we'll see.

• Testing by fire



• Learning experience



• Reasoning with her will be like trying to get milk out of a stone (old fable)

I suspect we'll learn a lot about this L from how he handles it. He has a very good reputation for getting things done quickly. He will be told upfront that he is not to waste our money sitting on the phone with her while she rages. He can politely let her know she can take her time to think about any offers and contact him when she's ready to discuss details.

[rarsweet]

I would say "do you wan't daughter to miss her dance?" or "do you want son to not play soccer?" or"maybe you could ask coach if son can have a phone break during practice"

[jp617251]

Yes, this rings true for me also.  Been having issues with phone calls of late, which form part of our orders.  I tend to ensure that when its time to call mum, distractions are removed, and our Son is prompted that we'll talk to Mum soon, and this helps for a decent exchange (given he is still quite young).  For me though, getting a phone call while he is with Mum has been hard work, I'm ignored a lot, texts not answered, call is made but TV blaring in background etc, basically inconsistent.

I gave up on it for a while with the thought to re-attempt when our Son is older, until he said 'I miss you Dad' and I thought, maybe I'm doing him a dis-service by not trying.  So I tried again and this time I was told via text and email that he doesn't want to receive a phone call from me.

This was a red flag for me (thinking about subtle PA or similar) here and so I acted, laying it out straight through email about how I felt, all politely but firmly of course.

So, yes, I have to say, never give up, stick to your guns and keep at it for the sake of the kid(s).  Damn hard work at times I know!

[bravhart1]

^^ What would happen if the tv was blaring on HER next call? Would she ask you to not do that?  Could that be a way to say, yes I was hoping you would agree tv should be turned off for phone calls, that's been a challenge for me too.

[jp617251]

^^ What would happen if the tv was blaring on HER next call? Would she ask you to not do that?  Could that be a way to say, yes I was hoping you would agree tv should be turned off for phone calls, that's been a challenge for me too.

Yes, tempting as it might be, I don't really want to do that as its lowering to her level even if it may prove a point.  Instead, I emailed with a little role-modelling included to explain how I prep our Son for the phone calls from his Mum, which seems to have been effective so far.  I do appreciate that others here are probably dealing individuals who are much harder to deal with.

[bus boy]

Wow. The phone call thing. Know that story very well. Even ex BPD's co workers have choice words they use to describe her. At her work if there is a rush on an order she will sit at her desk and look at the ringing phone and not answer, if she hints the slightest demand she goes into BPD mode. She frustrates co workers to no end so what ex BPD does to me with phone calls is no surprise. Sadly the only one hurt is s9. When the black heart had total control s9 called almost every day. Most often he would not get my texts. Now that I broke free of her control, s9 never calls. It was never great but now it's worse. We just learn to adapt.