Inadvertantly invalidating through trying to be validating

[Cat Familiar]

Last night my husband confronted me about a "new response pattern" that he says I've been using that seems "rote and mechanical and designed to shut off dialog."

This stemmed from my response to him telling me about his feelings after a phone call. We were scheduled to have tree trimmers come today to clear some brush and last night I called and left a phone message canceling since the weather report predicted rain on Saturday.

Shortly afterwards the phone rang and he answered it. Our tree guy said that he'd lined up his crew and that they would still be here in the morning. My husband reluctantly agreed and then, after he hung up the phone, started complaining to me.

"They won't be able to burn the brush if it's raining." He went on and on while I listened.

":)o you want me to call him back and cancel?" I asked. The crew doesn't speak much English and they tend to defer to me because it's obvious that I understand more about what they're doing because I've done a lot of brush clearing myself--and my husband is the indoor city boy.

"No, but it will be raining in the morning," he said.

"I'm sure they work in the rain sometimes," I said.

I get up to put some clothes in the dryer and he asks if I understand why he's upset. I say, "Yes, it wouldn't feel good to not be heard (thinking that the tree trimmer overrode husband's objections)."

This was the line that triggered husband to get angry with me.

He came over later and confronted me as I mentioned in my first paragraph. I said that I was sorry that I invalidated him and he agreed that's how he felt.

He went on and on about where I got that strategy, was it in therapy?

I said that I'd realized recently that I tend to be somewhat argumentative and I was trying to change that habit and be supportive.

Then he accused me of "justifying" myself and thinking that it was OK to talk to him like that. I merely thought I was answering his question of why I was responding in a different way, but then I realized I was JADEing.

Then he went on and on about how I could treat him any way I wanted but that I was doing this new technique and it seemed like a way to shut down conversation.

"I won't say that anymore. I don't want to invalidate you," I said.

"Say whatever you like. Who cares?" He then went on and on about how cold I was and that I was using this technique.

"I got it. Now you're just hammering (a word he typically uses) me," I said.

He left the room in a huff.

"Now, who's shutting down the conversation?" I asked.

Later, I went and spoke with him and apologized for invalidating him. I told him I want to hear how he feels and I don't want to say things that make him feel uncomfortable.

Dissect this conversation please and show me what I could do better. Thanks!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Notwendy]

Now you're just hammering (a word he typically uses) me.

Are you married to my H? He says this a lot if I push a point with him or repeat something. He says he hears me the first time, but if he doesn't respond, then I am not sure. So, I say it again " you're hammering me".

I don't have proof of this ( research proof) but from my observations, when what is being said is from Victim perspective, then there is little I can do about these accusations other than to try to validate if possible but the most important part for me is to not react and JADE.

Like your H, mine is good at verbal sparring. I can't continue that ,it makes me crazy. Mine isn't a lawyer but if I defend an accusation, he will then come up with proof to make his point. The part that is crazy making is that the premise may not be true, but the evidence he brings up is either true or possibly true.

I posted an incident where he said I didn't feed the animals. I JADED and said I did. Then, " there was no water in the cat's bowl" as if this is absolute evidence that I didn't. Well one could consider that maybe the cat drank it, or dumped the bowl over, but saying these things would have led to the circular argument.

When it begins to feel as if the discussion is due to my H being upset about something, and is building evidence for the accusation, I have to just step back and not respond, or say something not reactive like "OK honey". If I don't add any emotion, it can sometimes just dissipate. Responding doesn't seem to help as he seems to have made up his mind about it anyway.

[Cat Familiar]

If I don't add any emotion, it can sometimes just dissipate. Responding doesn't seem to help as he seems to have made up his mind about it anyway.



Yeah, it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't issues. And yet they want a response. And if I don't get emotional, then I'm cold.

I guess I'm making progress because I didn't get upset, nor did I apologize too much, but cripes--this gets old having to treat him like he's a fragile baby.   

[Notwendy]

Eventually, I think we can come to a place where we don't treat our SO's as if they are fragile. I think that point comes when we can handle their reaction. ( I am speaking for those in the absence of physical threat).

I used to be terrified of my H being angry. It took a lot of work to be able to be OK when he was. He has also noticed that I have changed how I interact with him- not JADEing, but he doesn't like it when I sound patronizing. I finally told him honestly, that I used to be scared, but I am not any more and I am just going to treat him like any other adult in my world. I pretty much stopped WOE but it took a long time. It doesn't happen all at once, sometimes we backtrack, catch ourselves doing it, or even choosing to WOE at times we don't want to deal with a reaction, but in general, we should stop it.

I am also not dealing with someone as severe as my BPD mother, and we all WOE around her. But I am doing it less and less. If she dysregulates, it doesn't bother me as much, but again, I don't live with her.

This is also a risk I am willing to take as the kids are older. I don't think my H would dysregulate around them now as he is concerned about what they think. The kids' emotional welfare was not at high risk before, but I would WOE to keep the house more peaceful.

When we treat our SO's as if they are fragile, then they don't learn to manage their own emotions. I do think it is harder to do this with more symptomatic pw BPD, or a threat of harm/self harm. It may have helped to WOE around my mother at the time, but also, doing this didn't help her to learn to manage her feelings as best she might have been able to.

[Cat Familiar]

When we treat our SO's as if they are fragile, then they don't learn to manage their own emotions.

Very good point, Notwendy.

It's a balancing act, for sure. I know how it feels to be invalidated by a word or phrase and I even had the opportunity to tell him last night about one he uses so frequently--"whatever"--after we had our chat where I acknowledged how I invalidated him. I think he understood how that comes across to me.

I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat exchange, but at the same time, I don't feel like I can be as "real" with him as I would with my friends who don't have mental illness. And by not being as forthcoming, it certainly puts a damper on the relationship, at least on my end... .and I would suspect on his side too.

I've sounded patronizing to him as well and sometimes that happens simply because we're talking about the material world (for example: household repairs) and I understand how things work and he doesn't. The world he inhabits is all about metaphorical concepts--Buddhism, philosophy--esoteric stuff that I don't understand (nor take much interest in). But we do live on the physical plane and I take responsibility for things in that realm.

I'm not really walking on eggshells, more like trying not to be an a*hole and say what I really think--which often wouldn't be very flattering. I miss not being able to joke and tease with him like I can do with my friends. It's really fun to say something snarky and exchange insults in a loving way, but that's not an avenue he would understand--he'd just feel like I'm putting him down.

The reality is that with a pwBPD, you have to be so vigilant with your words so that you don't unintentionally insult them. It takes a lot of fun out of human interactions.

[Bpdsupporter]

I first of all want to give you props for putting forth such great effort to use validation when communicating with your husband. I think you are doing a great job! Keep practicing for sure you will get the hang of it.

One suggestion I would make is I've found that often times when my pwBPD is coming to me about an issue he's really not looking for me to apologize or defend my position he really just wants me to listen. Using reflective listening helps alot. It's really super easy sometimes all you have to do is repeat back what they say. Here's two videos that really helped my listening skills.

https://youtu.be/oG_UlQrFmAY

https://youtu.be/7E_skS6TBXI

But I really think your doing a great job. You will get better with time and practice. So don't be too hard on yourself, keep at it! Peace to ya!

[Bpdsupporter]

Oh I highly recommend the book " Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" by Shari Manning it's awesome and she gives a ton of great practical ways to communicate with your loved one.

www.amazon.com/Someone-Borderline-Personality-Disorder-Control/dp/1593856075

Peace 

[Cat Familiar]

Bpdsupporter,

Thanks for the youTube clips--very good info on reflective listening. Definitely an area I need to improve. I'll check out the book you recommended too.

Cat

[Modron]

My spouse calls it "therapist talk" when I'm trying to be validating. She says, ":)on't do therapist talk. Tell me what you really think." She doesn't really want me to tell her what I think. I had to become quite adroit at finding new phrases and voice inflections when validating. I also had to tune in more to times when she wants me to listen without giving advice. And, I'm more content, because the less I give advice the less I get raged at from her feelings of inadequacy. I also try, in every circumstance where it's practical, to leave her to her own problem solving. What this requires from me is that I have to think ahead on any situation where I may have to intervene about what could go wrong and what I may have to do to fix it. I have to figure out what I'll do to explain if I have to fix something. I usually treat it like it's not a big deal to start with. Just something I did because i noticed it needed to be done. No blaming or recriminations. Besides, she is WAY better than I am at those. Sometimes I get a break because she, actually, can fix problems. She very often isn't confident she can and the result is a period of raging and blaming and wanting to drink or overeat. Those times get pretty dicey. I'm still learning to deal with them. It's better if we don't get to that point. I'm trying to understand what triggers her, especially if it's something outside of our home life, usually her work or some extended family thing. Those usually hit me out-of-the-blue. They are more of a boundary-setting time for me, not that I've mastered it, yet. I'm working on setting boundaries around being treated with respect and not taking rage, especially if it's a situation she's in that has nothing to do with anything I've done. Not that the raging is ever acceptable. We're still working on that. Anyway, I guess I drifted a bit from the validating topic. In my situation, I've noticed that I have to learn better ways to validate, and also that there are some situations that require me just to listen, and other situations that no amount of validation or listening will help and that, for us, it's a definite boundary setting thing.

[Bpdsupporter]

Your welcome Cat! I appreciate you sharing your story. It always helps me to read what others are going through especially in marriage. My pwBPD and I are engaged... .and I know that marriage is a whole nother playing field. Its the commitment of a lifetime for better or worst. So I'm encouraged to read about stories of people who are married and have kids with a person with BPD. I like to read the ups and the downs of it all. I know it wont be easy but I'm hopeful. Thanks!

[waverider]

I get up to put some clothes in the dryer and he asks if I understand why he's upset. I say, "Yes, it wouldn't feel good to not be heard (thinking that the tree trimmer overrode husband's objections)."

This was the line that triggered husband to get angry with me.

He believed he was explaining logic (even if you did need to be a mind reader to know it) You assumed you knew the answer, you did not ask if it was possibly the reason, you stated it... hence if it wasn't his reason then you were (in his mind) being presumptuous and telling him what he was thinking (invalidating)... Multiply that by compounding previous times he's felt it and he gets frustrated and triggered and feels you are dismissing his logic.

Maybe better bracketing it with  it with "Is it because you feel... .XYX ... or is it some other reason?"

[Notwendy]

I think we can all get better at being validating.

That said, I do hear you Cat. It gets me down sometimes, to feel as if this way of thinking- the projection, that somehow I am doing something to him, or the reason for the distress, when I am just going about my business gets tiring. Yet, I feel my situation is very mild, or at least in comparison to BPD mom it is light years milder and so I try not to dwell on it, as there is also a lot of good and work on the aspects of myself that exacerbate it.

[Grey Kitty]

This is the earliest point I see which looks invalidating.

This stemmed from my response to him telling me about his feelings after a phone call. We were scheduled to have tree trimmers come today to clear some brush and last night I called and left a phone message canceling since the weather report predicted rain on Saturday.

Shortly afterwards the phone rang and he answered it. Our tree guy said that he'd lined up his crew and that they would still be here in the morning. My husband reluctantly agreed and then, after he hung up the phone, started complaining to me.

"They won't be able to burn the brush if it's raining." He went on and on while I listened.



":)o you want me to call him back and cancel?" I asked. The crew doesn't speak much English and they tend to defer to me because it's obvious that I understand more about what they're doing because I've done a lot of brush clearing myself--and my husband is the indoor city boy.

You are obviously thinking that your H let the tree guy roll over him when he should have done otherwise.

The implication of your question (especially to a hyper-sensitive pwBPD) is that he messed up when he answered the phone call... .and you are offering to fix HIS SCREWUP. And while he's grumbling about the likely rain already, he hasn't acknowledged that the thing to do is to call back and tell the tree guy not to come.

Then the line about "not being heard" came up--What if he felt like you were the one who wasn't hearing him, not the tree guy? That line would really smart then!

[Cat Familiar]

My spouse calls it "therapist talk" when I'm trying to be validating. She says, ":)on't do therapist talk. Tell me what you really think." She doesn't really want me to tell her what I think. I had to become quite adroit at finding new phrases and voice inflections when validating. I also had to tune in more to times when she wants me to listen without giving advice. And, I'm more content, because the less I give advice the less I get raged at from her feelings of inadequacy. I also try, in every circumstance where it's practical, to leave her to her own problem solving.

Yikes! I've gotten that "therapist talk" comment too. And just like you, I know my "true and unedited" thoughts aren't welcome. I think one of my big problems is that I'm a "thinker" while he's a "feeler" so I try to apply logic and strategy to the situation and totally miss the underlying emotion, until the expression of it becomes too big to ignore. And I'm a "fixer" too. It's like the traditional male/female roles are reversed. (I feel for you guys out there who are struggling to understand incomprehensible female emotions--especially when BPD is added to the mix.) OK, I'll try to shut up and just listen to him vent and not think I have to fix it for him.

He believed he was explaining logic (even if you did need to be a mind reader to know it) You assumed you knew the answer, you did not ask if it was possibly the reason, you stated it... hence if it wasn't his reason then you were (in his mind) being presumptuous and telling him what he was thinking (invalidating)... Multiply that by compounding previous times he's felt it and he gets frustrated and triggered and feels you are dismissing his logic.

Maybe better bracketing it with  it with "Is it because you feel... .XYX ... or is it some other reason?"

Very good catch, Waverider. Yep, I was doing "mind reading" and not checking my assumptions. Much better to not make assumptions and ask if I was on the right track.

I think we can all get better at being validating.

That said, I do hear you Cat. It gets me down sometimes, to feel as if this way of thinking- the projection, that somehow I am doing something to him, or the reason for the distress, when I am just going about my business gets tiring.

Yes, it's almost like we need to stop, think, translate our words into another language before we speak. Cumbersome for sure. Annoying too when they act so wounded by us about something so insignificant (at least to us.)

":)o you want me to call him back and cancel?"

You are obviously thinking that your H let the tree guy roll over him when he should have done otherwise.

The implication of your question (especially to a hyper-sensitive pwBPD) is that he messed up when he answered the phone call... .and you are offering to fix HIS SCREWUP. And while he's grumbling about the likely rain already, he hasn't acknowledged that the thing to do is to call back and tell the tree guy not to come.

Then the line about "not being heard" came up--What if he felt like you were the one who wasn't hearing him, not the tree guy? That line would really smart then!

This is great, Grey Kitty. Yes, asking to fix his screwup was definitely invalidating and I really compounded it by the "not being heard" line. I feel like a bull in a china shop sometimes. It's no wonder that I get along so well with animals since they don't take offense at my talking to them. 

So many variations of the BPD personality--though my mother was far less functional socially than my husband is, she had a much tougher skin and didn't take offense so easily. I think because she was so competent in the physical realm, whereas that's where my husband has some major deficiencies, that she had more self esteem about chores and other work.

[Grey Kitty]

Bull in a china shop... .or maybe a normal human being trying to go through some kind of tripwire filled obstacle course. Seriously... .if you avoid all his normal triggers, he will somehow find a few new ones for you to bump into!

That you can recover well is more important than not triggering problems.

You and he both kinda got into it toward the end... .and later you calmed down and apologized, and it is back to life-as-usual. THAT is a huge victory. 

[Notwendy]

I don't think we can avoid all the triggers, but it helps to understand that our triggers are ours, someone else's is theirs. After all, we can't trigger someone unless they have this trigger. It is frustrating to realize that something we said went down that rabbit hole but the best we can do is recognize it and recover, like you did.

Huge variations in BPD, just like personalities. My mother is not competent, but I wonder if she may have been more competent has she grown up in another era. In her generation, getting married was the main goal, not career or other achievements and so she didn't develop strengths in areas she may have been competent at. My H isn't anything like her, but between us we have similar dynamics, and coupled with me being codependent, gave rise to issues between us.

[waverider]

I don't think we can avoid all the triggers, but it helps to understand that our triggers are ours, someone else's is theirs. After all, we can't trigger someone unless they have this trigger. It is frustrating to realize that something we said went down that rabbit hole but the best we can do is recognize it and recover, like you did.

This is important so you can not only head off escalations but make it easier not to guilt and blame yourself, and move on more easily. You wont always catch yourself but at least if you spot the "glitches" for what they are you can work around them more smoothly.

As conflict and defensiveness reduces so do the triggers, it all goes hand in hand

[Cat Familiar]

Bull in a china shop... .or maybe a normal human being trying to go through some kind of tripwire filled obstacle course. Seriously... .if you avoid all his normal triggers, he will somehow find a few new ones for you to bump into!

That you can recover well is more important than not triggering problems.

I guess all new behaviors seem a bit forced or constrained when one is first trying them out. I'm finding that I'm becoming even more analytical and strategic than I typically am and this is moving me even further into thinking rather than feeling. Often my husband will ask for reassurance that I still love him and though I say I do, this "love" I say I feel is coming more from a place of duty and fondness rather than from a place of genuine feeling, because my feelings for him are now flat and rather apathetic. Considering the passion I once felt for my "soulmate" I now wonder if that was all delusion stemming from the initial matching of a codependent and a borderline.

I don't think we can avoid all the triggers, but it helps to understand that our triggers are ours, someone else's is theirs. After all, we can't trigger someone unless they have this trigger. It is frustrating to realize that something we said went down that rabbit hole but the best we can do is recognize it and recover, like you did.

Like GK said, if we do manage to avoid their triggers, they'll create new ones. The balance of "being real" with my responses and at the same time trying to second-guess and avoid what could set him off, sends me into that hyper-mental territory I mentioned above. I've heard the concept of "emotional bank account" and I realize that over the years I've inadvertently withdrawn from his account just by being myself and saying things that a psychologically healthy person could shrug off, but that a pwBPD would consider an attack. Trying not to invalidate and to validate when possible, I can hopefully build up his emotional bank account to the point where he might in the future consider a random snarky remark coming from me as humorous, instead of devastating.

This is important so you can not only head off escalations but make it easier not to guilt and blame yourself, and move on more easily. You wont always catch yourself but at least if you spot the "glitches" for what they are you can work around them more smoothly.

As conflict and defensiveness reduces so do the triggers, it all goes hand in hand

I'm pretty good at not blaming myself or feeling guilty. When all else fails, I flip him off with my hand in my pocket or turn away and say, "What an a*hole" under my breath and then I discharge my irritation and can smile and be pleasant.   

I am very motivated to reduce the conflict and defensiveness, but not at my own expense. I see how counterproductive it is to argue and it's in my best interests to nip it in the bud when things go south. I have to remind myself how much benefit I receive from this relationship and I do really care about him, but certainly it's a different relationship than the one I thought I was signing onto. 

[Grey Kitty]

this "love" I say I feel is coming more from a place of duty and fondness rather than from a place of genuine feeling, because my feelings for him are now flat and rather apathetic. Considering the passion I once felt for my "soulmate" I now wonder if that was all delusion stemming from the initial matching of a codependent and a borderline.

[... .]

I've heard the concept of "emotional bank account" and I realize that over the years I've inadvertently withdrawn from his account just by being myself and saying things that a psychologically healthy person could shrug off, but that a pwBPD would consider an attack.

[... .]

I have to remind myself how much benefit I receive from this relationship and I do really care about him, but certainly it's a different relationship than the one I thought I was signing onto.  

Cat, you've got an emotional bank account too... .and he took it into the red years ago, I'm pretty sure.

That "soulmate" feeling sure does involve finding the person who appears to "solve" all your core wounds, but actually ends up triggering them after the dust settles. You probably won't get that back.

It hurts to let go of all the fantasies and dreams of what you thought your marriage would be... .and you can see what it actually is now, choose to love, and choose to build what you can on the parts that are real. This is a messy world to go into things with your eyes open!

[Notwendy]

More and more I have found the courage to "be real", but I can recognize the triggers and back off.

It happened recently, when my H suggested we do something together as a nice idea. Well this particular idea is stressful for a number of reasons and has not worked well for us. I had the choice of going along with it and not saying anything, but this time, I said no this isn't a comfortable idea for me . Next thing I hear is " I am trying to think of something nice for us and now you are hammering me".

Once I hear this, the conversation is over for me. I don't feel I can say anything else once this happens but things are better because I don't JADE or continue it. The point is, that something nice for us, is something that isn't going to stress us both out leaving us both vulnerable to falling into dysfunctional patterns. There are things we do that don't do this- like hiking together, going to the movies, and this isn't one of them.

So being real means we find new ways to interact with each other. It is uncomfortable to break old habits. I hope to build new ones.

[Notwendy]

I've heard the concept of "emotional bank account" and I realize that over the years I've inadvertently withdrawn from his account just by being myself and saying things that a psychologically healthy person could shrug off, but that a pwBPD would consider an attack.

That is an eye opener. For me, it really shut me off from talking to my H at all about anything personal. I brought it up in counseling- if what I say isn't intended to hurt, but it feels like it inevitably does, then I don't want to hurt you, I don't want to be that voice.

Mostly I save the personal discussions for MC where she can intervene as an interpreter of sorts, or if I hear that he feels wounded, I don't continue.

As to the emotional bank account - mine- I think I have had to let go of old ideas. The truth is, we will inevitably marry someone who triggers our core wounds, not the other way around. It is our job to deal with our childhood issues.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

This is also a risk I am willing to take as the kids are older. I don't think my H would dysregulate around them now as he is concerned about what they think. The kids' emotional welfare was not at high risk before, but I would WOE to keep the house more peaceful.

This is part of the whole BPD is a disease thing that I have problems with.  My w too will save her most BPD-like behavior for when we're alone... .Any suggestion such as "run it by a girlfriend and see what she thinks" is met with "these are personal issues between me and you".

But if she's smart enough to mostly keep these behaviors/thoughts to herself until she can share them with me, is it really a disease or disorder?

[Cat Familiar]

Cat, you've got an emotional bank account too... .and he took it into the red years ago, I'm pretty sure.

That "soulmate" feeling sure does involve finding the person who appears to "solve" all your core wounds, but actually ends up triggering them after the dust settles. You probably won't get that back.

It hurts to let go of all the fantasies and dreams of what you thought your marriage would be... .and you can see what it actually is now, choose to love, and choose to build what you can on the parts that are real. This is a messy world to go into things with your eyes open!

Thanks, Grey Kitty. My emotional bank account has been in the red for some time. In so many other ways, however, my life is blessed and having been given the invalidating messages I received in childhood, I sometimes question myself (and invalidate myself) when I think--"I've got everything I need (other than reliable emotional support from him) so what am I complaining about?"

I started reading the book BPDsupporter mentioned (thank you!) " Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" by Shari Manning and for the first time, I'm seeing this disorder, as it manifests in my husband, as a product of genetics and environment--genetics in having innate extreme emotionality and environment in growing up with a tyrannically abusive narcissistic father.

IsItHerOrIsItMe mentioned, This is part of the whole BPD is a disease thing that I have problems with.  My w too will save her most BPD-like behavior for when we're alone... .Any suggestion such as "run it by a girlfriend and see what she thinks" is met with "these are personal issues between me and you"... .But if she's smart enough to mostly keep these behaviors/thoughts to herself until she can share them with me, is it really a disease or disorder?

Because my husband has a modicum of control about his emotional acting out when he wants to, I felt until I recently read more about the genesis of the disorder that he was deliberately being a jerk to me and it felt so unnecessary and unjustified. I'm typically a warm, kind, generous and open person until my trust is abused. Then I go into self-protective mode and at these times I've been told that I can be removed, remote, walled off, distant--yet polite. I understand how someone wanting nurturing from me might feel like they've wandered into a desert, but on the other hand, I'm not willing to be vulnerable if I'm met with unkind behavior.

Understanding how extreme my husband's emotions are and how little control he has over them and how long it takes to transit through them, I now feel more compassionate. For a while I felt like I had to study to be the trained seal--to jump through the hoops perfectly--and he kept changing the height of the hoops so I never seemed to get it right. I was really resentful that I had to be so careful with my words, while he could say the most unkind things, and when confronted, deny that there was anything wrong with his intent.

Like Notwendy mentions, it really shut me off from talking to my H at all about anything personal. I find this really sad and it seems to preclude intimacy if one partner has to constantly be aware of censoring any and all thoughts that might be triggering. It's a wonder that any of us can manage to find some crumb of connection, love and trust. But then, perhaps building up the emotional bank account will provide some overdraft protection so we don't always have to be hypervigilant.

[Grey Kitty]

Like Notwendy mentions, it really shut me off from talking to my H at all about anything personal. I find this really sad and it seems to preclude intimacy if one partner has to constantly be aware of censoring any and all thoughts that might be triggering. It's a wonder that any of us can manage to find some crumb of connection, love and trust.

It really does severely limit intimacy, if not preclude it entirely when your trust is that limited. And your trust is limited for good reason. His emotional range to support you and accept you has pretty severe limits.

This may someday get a little better, but any progress there on his part is going to be slow at best. Very slow.

My emotional bank account has been in the red for some time. In so many other ways, however, my life is blessed and having been given the invalidating messages I received in childhood, I sometimes question myself (and invalidate myself) when I think--"I've got everything I need (other than reliable emotional support from him) so what am I complaining about?"

I get a really sad feeling from this statement; it kinda like this... .

I lived on just a few emotional crumbs throughout my childhood, when I was so lucky to even get that much... .now I've got a quadruple serving of crumbs, and I should be grateful for it and be happy with it. But that looks and smells like a banquet over there in the other room somewhere... .

Yes, people who can offer deep emotional support do exist. And yes, you are worth having them in your life some way.

[waverider]

But if she's smart enough to mostly keep these behaviors/thoughts to herself until she can share them with me, is it really a disease or disorder?

I dont get too hung up on the definitions and just think of it as weak and impaired mental values and priorities. Self preservation vs genuine respect for others. Often respect is substituted by awareness of usefulness. Disease or disorder? It just is what it is and they seem unable to function otherwise, it is certainly not a healthy  "wisemind" choice, as the wisemind is dysfunctional. Either way they are unable you wake up one morning and choose to process their reasoning otherwise, they are trapped in it.

[Cat Familiar]

It really does severely limit intimacy, if not preclude it entirely when your trust is that limited. And your trust is limited for good reason. His emotional range to support you and accept you has pretty severe limits.

This may someday get a little better, but any progress there on his part is going to be slow at best. Very slow.

My emotional bank account has been in the red for some time. In so many other ways, however, my life is blessed and having been given the invalidating messages I received in childhood, I sometimes question myself (and invalidate myself) when I think--"I've got everything I need (other than reliable emotional support from him) so what am I complaining about?"

I get a really sad feeling from this statement; it kinda like this... .

I lived on just a few emotional crumbs throughout my childhood, when I was so lucky to even get that much... .now I've got a quadruple serving of crumbs, and I should be grateful for it and be happy with it. But that looks and smells like a banquet over there in the other room somewhere... .

Yes, people who can offer deep emotional support do exist. And yes, you are worth having them in your life some way.

I do have some amazing girlfriends with whom I can be totally myself. So that's a plus. However I can't say that I've had that kind of emotional support in a romantic relationship and I certainly didn't see any modeling of that as a child.

I feel like I'm waking up from a long surreal dream and wondering how the hell I've managed to choose partners that are so limited. I guess rather than seeing reality (the wounded man-child) in front of me, I saw "potential" and somehow I assumed that through my love and support, I could "help" them be their best selves. (Yuck. Not only is this really presumptuous on my part, but how invalidating that must feel to them.)

Of course they too had their part to play and I loved the phase where they idolized me. I was so hungry for attention and approval; I had no idea that was merely a temporary illusion.

I think back and undoubtedly there were some nice guys who crossed my path and with whom I could have had a "healthy relationship" but at the time I think I thought of them as "boring." I much preferred the mysterious dangerous guys who were "home improvement projects."