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dacoming
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« on: April 12, 2016, 12:39:27 PM »

All, I told my wife today that my boss is sending me to a 3 day training course out of town.  I am retired military working for the government.  She called me back at work and starting interrogating me about the training, when I found out, why I have to go, etc.  I told her that our most experienced paralegal is retiring at the end of the month so the boss is sending me and the other remaining paralegal to this training because it's beneficial for us and the company.  She was upset that I took a job that required travel after being in the military and having to deploy and go TDY on multiple occasions.  I explained to her that I talked to her before about the possibility of travel due to the court cases being in different cities, training, etc.  I also told her that these cases usually last several years and I likely wouldn't be gone more than once a year on average.  Last year I didn't travel at all.  She brought up the trust issues that we have or she has with me (although I've never cheated on her or even tried).  I will admit that I sometimes tend to not tell her things, like office lunches or fundraisers or other things, because she tends to always turn things into something it's not, which leads to unnecessary arguments.  Anyway, she said she always has to go off my word on TDYs because I never provide proof.  However, I ALWAYS show her proof, whether it's travel orders, emails, or whatever.  She seems to not remember any of that but every time it's a huge hassle.

Now she is telling me that she is not taking me traveling anymore and implied she will divorce me if need be.  I told her I have no choice when cases or training comes up.  She told me that she has a choice and is not going to deal with it.  What is she really asking me to do?  Quit my job and find something else?  This is a government job, a GS-11, which is hard to come by.  I would be a fool to leave a good job like this unless another great government job comes along with no travel.  I'm the only one working!  I have been looking for other government jobs in HR because that's ultimately what I want to do and have been referred on a few recently.  So far, no interviews.  She's completely irrational and I'm tired of being controlled.  She is extremely jealous, possessive and controlling.  For example, every SINGLE time we go somewhere together, she always points out some chick who is checking me out or trying to flirt with me.  EVERY TIME!

What should I do?
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globalnomad
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2016, 01:23:27 PM »

Hey dacoming, that puts you in a tough spot. I can really relate to this. Only a few days ago I learned that I have to do a five day overseas trip in June. My wife insists she cannot possibly cope on her own that long (we have a 5 month old baby) and I need to tell my boss I can't go. I can't do this because occasional travel is part of my job requirement. I offered to get someone in during the day to help her with the baby, but still she insists I tell my company I can't go. There is no logic to any of this - it is pure emotion in the driver's seat.

Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "I would be a fool to leave a good job like this". If I were you I'd be very clear that whether you go or not is not negotiable. Perhaps there are some reasonable things that would reassure her while you're away, however? A phone call every night at a certain hour? These things are tough, I know. I can't tell you whether her divorce threat is for real, but in my wife's case these things are usually just a kind of test to see if I'll cave in. When I do I suspect on some level she actually ends up losing respect for me.

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adventurer
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2016, 01:25:41 PM »

You're not new to the site, so I'm guessing you have read a lot of the basics of validation and other communication skills.  Also, you probably understand that her jealousy and fears are not based in logic and have nothing to do with you.  

Unfortunately, you will need to risk her leaving in order to fulfill your job responsibilities.  There is some truth in what she says she has a choice whether or not to deal with your travel.  You cannot change her or her behavior, only she can be responsible for that.  However, my complete guess is that this is an empty threat used simply as an attempt to manipulate you.  Once you show her that you will be traveling, regardless, hopefully her threats and behavior cool down a bit, though she may go through an extinction burst first.  

I also want to mention, that I hope you are looking at jobs in HR because that it truly what you want for your future (as you are saying) and not because you are attempting to alter your life goals to placate a disordered person.  If you stop traveling, she will simply move onto something else to bother you about and if it is not a choice true to yourself, you will likely end up resenting her for it and damaging your relationship from your own resentments.

I travel a couple times a year for work.  I would feel great anxiety attempting to schedule it and telling her about it, because of the grief I knew my wife would be giving me as a result.  I just have to take some deep breaths, detach emotionally and try my best to validate her feelings without sacrificing my needs or personal truth.

"I understand it is hard for you when I'm away.  You have a lot of concerns about me being away from home.  I will miss you and be sure to check in once a day.  This is something I need to do and I hope you will be able to understand and support me if you can."

I also used to not tell my wife things that I was doing - she would interrogate me about who I was with, what I was doing, what women were there, etc.  Like you, I wanted to avoid the arguments.  Through counseling, I have been able to own everything I do and tell her as if she were a regular person.  Her reaction didn't change right away but I refused to argue with her about anything.  She gives me a bad attitude about things, I just grey rock, give her the facts and refuse to be baited into an argument where I try to explain or justify anything to her.  Eventually her argumentativeness has decreased but unfortunately this seems to have increased her depression.  I think she feels like if I don't fight her I don't care about or love her.
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Cloudy Days
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 01:53:11 PM »

I just found out I have to go to training from a Wednesday to a Friday next week. My husband in the past was able to go with me but this time we can't afford the both of us going. I sent him a text and am waiting for the response or blow up, I'm not sure how he is going to take it. I know he has trust issues as well and that's going to be the center of his anxiety.

I know one thing is he will not tell me to quit my job because we discussed it and we both agree I should take this job, the alternative would be losing something he really wants. I'm still not prepared for his reaction though, things have been ok for awhile.

I know one thing is that you should not quit your job. She's going to have to deal with her anxiety and most likely it is a ploy to get you to do what she wants. My husband has been threatening divorce for the last 10 years, none of them were serious threats. At least I know the name of the woman who will be training me, if it were a man my husband would have a huge problem with it. Anyways, I feel your pain. I always knew traveling was a possibility with my job I just have been able to work around it till now.

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dacoming
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2016, 02:38:17 PM »

Hey dacoming, that puts you in a tough spot. I can really relate to this. Only a few days ago I learned that I have to do a five day overseas trip in June. My wife insists she cannot possibly cope on her own that long (we have a 5 month old baby) and I need to tell my boss I can't go. I can't do this because occasional travel is part of my job requirement. I offered to get someone in during the day to help her with the baby, but still she insists I tell my company I can't go. There is no logic to any of this - it is pure emotion in the driver's seat.

Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "I would be a fool to leave a good job like this". If I were you I'd be very clear that whether you go or not is not negotiable. Perhaps there are some reasonable things that would reassure her while you're away, however? A phone call every night at a certain hour? These things are tough, I know. I can't tell you whether her divorce threat is for real, but in my wife's case these things are usually just a kind of test to see if I'll cave in. When I do I suspect on some level she actually ends up losing respect for me.

That's the problem, NOTHING reassures her.  Every time I've deployed or gone TDY, I've provided her orders to prove it.  I talk to her more than one time a day, usually for almost the rest of the evening until bed time.  Still... .accusations!  She blames her thought process on the fact that I can't be trusted.  I have lied and kept things from her before and I regret that.  But I promise you there was no infidelity, nothing even close.  It's just I get anxiety discussing anything with her because she always turns it into something it's not.
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dacoming
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2016, 02:47:10 PM »

I also want to mention, that I hope you are looking at jobs in HR because that it truly what you want for your future (as you are saying) and not because you are attempting to alter your life goals to placate a disordered person.  If you stop traveling, she will simply move onto something else to bother you about and if it is not a choice true to yourself, you will likely end up resenting her for it and damaging your relationship from your own resentments.

Thanks for the advice.  HR is what I dream of doing actually; however all of my experience is as a paralegal.  I have an HR degree.  I'm hoping the labor and employment background that I have as a paralegal can translate to an HR position.  If I were to quit this job (which is highly unlikely), I would resent her because it's HARD to get a government job unless you know someone.  Most of the positions are advertised because they have to be but the company usually have someone from within to fill it.  It was a complete blessing that I got this job without knowing anyone.  I already harbor some resentment to her from when I went to Germany unaccompanied and I didn't go on any trips or tours to placate her insecurities.  I went to work and came home, got into a huge argument because I went to the gym one weekend.  And still... .FALSE ACCUSATIONS that I still hear about today!  But I only have myself to blame for being stupid and listening to her in the first place.  She's never pleased... .
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dacoming
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2016, 02:48:55 PM »

I just found out I have to go to training from a Wednesday to a Friday next week. My husband in the past was able to go with me but this time we can't afford the both of us going. I sent him a text and am waiting for the response or blow up, I'm not sure how he is going to take it. I know he has trust issues as well and that's going to be the center of his anxiety.

I know one thing is he will not tell me to quit my job because we discussed it and we both agree I should take this job, the alternative would be losing something he really wants. I'm still not prepared for his reaction though, things have been ok for awhile.

I know one thing is that you should not quit your job. She's going to have to deal with her anxiety and most likely it is a ploy to get you to do what she wants. My husband has been threatening divorce for the last 10 years, none of them were serious threats. At least I know the name of the woman who will be training me, if it were a man my husband would have a huge problem with it. Anyways, I feel your pain. I always knew traveling was a possibility with my job I just have been able to work around it till now.

I feel your pain.  I'm thinking... .the training is only a few days.  It's not like a deployment!
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globalnomad
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2016, 02:51:49 PM »

Hey dacoming, that puts you in a tough spot. I can really relate to this. Only a few days ago I learned that I have to do a five day overseas trip in June. My wife insists she cannot possibly cope on her own that long (we have a 5 month old baby) and I need to tell my boss I can't go. I can't do this because occasional travel is part of my job requirement. I offered to get someone in during the day to help her with the baby, but still she insists I tell my company I can't go. There is no logic to any of this - it is pure emotion in the driver's seat.

Anyway, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "I would be a fool to leave a good job like this". If I were you I'd be very clear that whether you go or not is not negotiable. Perhaps there are some reasonable things that would reassure her while you're away, however? A phone call every night at a certain hour? These things are tough, I know. I can't tell you whether her divorce threat is for real, but in my wife's case these things are usually just a kind of test to see if I'll cave in. When I do I suspect on some level she actually ends up losing respect for me.

She blames her thought process on the fact that I can't be trusted.  I have lied and kept things from her before and I regret that.  But I promise you there was no infidelity, nothing even close.  It's just I get anxiety discussing anything with her because she always turns it into something it's not.

I face exactly the same problem here. I get really anxious having these type of conversations because I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells and I know that if I use the wrong word she will fly off the handle. She misinterprets my anxiety to mean that I must be hiding something. This usually doesn't end well... .
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dacoming
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2016, 02:56:59 PM »

I face exactly the same problem here. I get really anxious having these type of conversations because I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells and I know that if I use the wrong word she will fly off the handle. She misinterprets my anxiety to mean that I must be hiding something. This usually doesn't end well... .

All of the times I've lied or failed to tell her something is because I get anxiety talking to her about things.  The times that I do tell her something, it almost always goes bad.  When she finds out about something that I haven't told her, it looks like I'm up to no good.  And she's not a person who tells you what she feels and leaves you alone.  She goes on and on, sometimes through the night, and follows and harasses me.
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adventurer
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2016, 04:27:38 PM »

Follows you and harrasses you?  :)efinitely not good.

got into a huge argument because you went to the gym?  Yeah - I've been there, not fun.

I have a lot I can say about this stuff, the simple version is

1. Therapy

2. Read/Study BPD

3. Boundaries

Firstly (though this will cause relationship friction as well) - I would suggest you find some individual counseling to help you navigate all these pitfalls in your relationship.  I spun it to the wife as self-blame.  That we obviously had some issues, that I had anger problems (true) and I was going to get help for them for self-improvement.  I have a lot of similar problems as yours in my marriage.  My counselor started to help me be able to break away and do some things on my own, for ME.  For example, the gym.  My wife started to feel threatened by my absence when I started going to the gym in the mornings.  I would even invite her along and she would usually decline, but act snotty and suspicious when I returned.

My therapist said - "So go to the gym!  What's the worst that will happen?  She will get mad?"  The trick is, YES, she will get mad, much madder than a normal, reasonable person will get.  Yet I needed to go to the gym, or go to a bar with some buddies a couple times a month, or whatever.  And I needed to do this regularly so she would get used to seeing that I always came home and didn't abandon her, and so that I could have some life and space outside my marriage.

But this brings me to the second point.  She WILL get mad, so I needed to learn how to deal with her anger.  We were previously a high conflict couple and I would rage right back at her, or try to justify and use logical arguments and spin out of control with frustration when discussing these issues.

How did I learn?  I did a LOT of reading.  The lessons on this board, and specifically the books 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline' were a HUGE help.  And then?  Practice, practice, practice.  I started small - I would pick something small that I knew would upset and trigger her - I planned a night out with a good male friend of mine, someone she knew and supposedly trusts.  We went for a movie and a drink, but I did NOT have more than one drink - I needed to keep my edge for the craziness when I got home.  If it was sarcasm or silent treatment, I would just not call out her bad behavior or engage - I would act like everything was normal, give her a hug and tell her I was headed to get ready for bed.  If I tried to kiss and she pulled away, I would ignore and act like everything was ok and I wasn't hurt.  Just went about my business.  If she started raging, I needed to set boundaries.

And that is the final step, boundaries.  If she could not calm down, I would need to take a time out.  If she pushes me and I start losing MY temper, I need to take a time out.  I just say, "things seem too heated right now, let's take 15 minutes" and I leave the room.  A couple times she has followed me yelling and I have told her again we need time/space and she will usually leave me alone.  A couple of times I had to threaten to leave the house if that space was not respected.  You have to be ready to carry that out if necessary, I have not had to but it was close.

A lot of your comments sound like you still are feeling very responsible for her thoughts and feelings.  You will need to make a very concerted effort to detach emotionally and let her own those.  Again, it's a constant learning process, there will be progress and setbacks, but overall I believe you can learn strategies to protect your own emotional and psychological welfare.
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dacoming
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2016, 04:42:29 PM »

Follows you and harrasses you?  :)efinitely not good.

got into a huge argument because you went to the gym?  Yeah - I've been there, not fun.

I have a lot I can say about this stuff, the simple version is

1. Therapy

2. Read/Study BPD

3. Boundaries

Firstly (though this will cause relationship friction as well) - I would suggest you find some individual counseling to help you navigate all these pitfalls in your relationship.  I spun it to the wife as self-blame.  That we obviously had some issues, that I had anger problems (true) and I was going to get help for them for self-improvement.  I have a lot of similar problems as yours in my marriage.  My counselor started to help me be able to break away and do some things on my own, for ME.  For example, the gym.  My wife started to feel threatened by my absence when I started going to the gym in the mornings.  I would even invite her along and she would usually decline, but act snotty and suspicious when I returned.

My therapist said - "So go to the gym!  What's the worst that will happen?  She will get mad?"  The trick is, YES, she will get mad, much madder than a normal, reasonable person will get.  Yet I needed to go to the gym, or go to a bar with some buddies a couple times a month, or whatever.  And I needed to do this regularly so she would get used to seeing that I always came home and didn't abandon her, and so that I could have some life and space outside my marriage.

But this brings me to the second point.  She WILL get mad, so I needed to learn how to deal with her anger.  We were previously a high conflict couple and I would rage right back at her, or try to justify and use logical arguments and spin out of control with frustration when discussing these issues.

How did I learn?  I did a LOT of reading.  The lessons on this board, and specifically the books 'Stop Walking on Eggshells' and 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline' were a HUGE help.  And then?  Practice, practice, practice.  I started small - I would pick something small that I knew would upset and trigger her - I planned a night out with a good male friend of mine, someone she knew and supposedly trusts.  We went for a movie and a drink, but I did NOT have more than one drink - I needed to keep my edge for the craziness when I got home.  If it was sarcasm or silent treatment, I would just not call out her bad behavior or engage - I would act like everything was normal, give her a hug and tell her I was headed to get ready for bed.  If I tried to kiss and she pulled away, I would ignore and act like everything was ok and I wasn't hurt.  Just went about my business.  If she started raging, I needed to set boundaries.

And that is the final step, boundaries.  If she could not calm down, I would need to take a time out.  If she pushes me and I start losing MY temper, I need to take a time out.  I just say, "things seem too heated right now, let's take 15 minutes" and I leave the room.  A couple times she has followed me yelling and I have told her again we need time/space and she will usually leave me alone.  A couple of times I had to threaten to leave the house if that space was not respected.  You have to be ready to carry that out if necessary, I have not had to but it was close.

A lot of your comments sound like you still are feeling very responsible for her thoughts and feelings.  You will need to make a very concerted effort to detach emotionally and let her own those.  Again, it's a constant learning process, there will be progress and setbacks, but overall I believe you can learn strategies to protect your own emotional and psychological welfare.

Thanks for your insight, greatly appreciated!  We had a huge argument on Sunday that ended with her insulting me and belittling me in front of the kids... .hell outside in an open garage where neighbors could hear.  Eventually, she made a comment about getting out of the marriage and I told her to do it.  I said you don't have to be with me and can leave whenever.  It went on and on while I was trying to watch the game, the insults kept coming so I left the house and went to the gym.  She sent a few texts about how I'm disrespecting the marriage by leaving the house like that and that she might do the same thing; however letting me know that she probably wouldn't go to the gym.  She might go out and cheat because she thinks I am.  I texted back that when things are getting ugly and the insults and disrespect starts, the best thing is to give each other space and re-engage when we have a cooler head.  She doesn't agree.  If I could stay home and go into another room, I would but she follows me wherever I go.  There have been times where she got in my face trying to provoke me by putting her finger in my face and pushing my face.  She is VERY hard to deal with and doesn't respect boundaries.  I have left the house multiple times, even staying at the job all night to sleep in the office on occasions.

I'm already going to individual counseling but it's mostly to deal with the anxiety.  The counselor is pushing me to go to MC but she is not on board.  Plus I know it will go bad because she get's upset when I disagree with her about events that happened or anything really.  She calls me explaining my thoughts as debating and over talks me all the time.
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