Conversation style - Am I being a dck?

[ArleighBurke]

Background: I left my wife and kids. Stayed away for a week, then we negotiated and i came back to "try again". I've been home 10 days now. This was the post https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=292039.0

My wife has "hinted" a few times in conversations that she wants to know what I did in my "week away".

    - In 1 conversation she said "I have no idea what you did that week", but then moved onto talking about something else.

    - She's said "you could have slept with 5 women - I have no idea", but then kept talking

    - "you havn't told me anythnig about that week".

She's also said "I do trust you. Never did I think that there was another woman".

But last night she said:

    Her: I've hinted to you a few times that i want to know what happenned that week - but you've never talked about it.

     Me: You've never asked me any question.

    Her: You're being secretive.

    Me: I'm happy for you to know anything about the week. What would you like to know?

   Her: No. I'm not going to ask you questions. You should *want* to share with me - to be open. Making me ask you is a powerplay. You're using the knowledge you have as power over me.

I'm not the worlds most talkative guy - but I certainly do talk. I've actually already told her that on 1 night I went into town with a male work friend to a food festival where I met another guy who had a very interesting job and told her all about it. She didn't ask any questions about that (like where was it, what did you eat, who else was there... .nothing). Most of the time when i tell her stories she doesn't ask any followup questions.

Am i being secretive and power hungry by not starting the conversation and volunteering information? I try to imagine it in reverse and i really believe that if you want to know you'd ask. But I also realise asking is a form of being vulnerable (you are expressing interest in someone, and may not like what you hear).

Thoughts?

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[teapay]

It kind of sounds like she is trying to pick up were she left off just before you left her without missing a beat. Others can give you their thoughts and advice, but how do you want to actually handle it?  Do you want to tell her or or not? 

[ArleighBurke]

I'm more than happy to share with her what i did in that week. I have nothing to hide.

I guess my issue is: she's HINTING about wanting to know some information, but refuses to actually ASK. She wants me to just volunteer and talk about it. Why?

Why can't she ASK about it?

- because she's afraid of what I might say?

- because asking is an indication that she WANTS to know? (which indicates she's worried or cares or is insecure?)

- does asking somehow demeen her?

And is me not telling her until she actually asks stubborn? Or a powerplay?

- To me it's almost a form of JADE

      - telling her stuff that i *think* she wants to know.

      - "Coming clean" perhaps

[hergestridge]

I think she doesn't want to ask you because that would be like interrogating. That's why she gives you hints and wants you to talk about it.

If I were you I would tell her what I did that week and then ask her if she suspected that I had done anything inappropriate and if so - why?

I would go as far as saying that the fact that you are given hints about what your partner expects is a good thing. pwBPD have a hard time expressing their feelings and their wishes.

I don't think you're being a dick though.   A dick wouldn't try to understand.

[teapay]

There are other questions you could also ask yourself.

You are happy to tell her what happened, but do you want to tell her?  If you want to tell her, tell her.  If you simply don't want to tell, then don't.  You really don't need any more reason than that.

Would telling her everything make any difference to her?

How is this interaction with her any different from her interaction with you before you left?  She is doing the same.  You are doing the same.

Can you accept the status quo as okay for you?

What did you learn about you from your separation?

[Notwendy]

I think her hinting/evasiveness is fear driven- she basically said it- did you sleep with someone else during that time? To ask you outright is to reveal her fear- to dangerous, so she is hinting and then accusing you of not telling. A bit of projection.

While things may seem better since you have been back, because she is making an effort ( great) remember that neither of you have learned new relationship skills in such a short time. So while it is great that both of you want to be better, that will take some time to learn to relate in new ways. This isn't a bad thing- but just something to be aware of - that you are at risk for falling into old patterns.

What is the expectation for a couple to share everything? Is privacy allowed? I am not talking about things that violate marriage vows, but the limits of individuality/togetherness in a marriage. Certainly, if my H is working on a project at work and a colleague tells him something in confidence- I don't expect to be told that. Same with me. I don't feel I need to recount every picky detail of my day to my H. But somehow I don't think your wife is hinting at what did you have for lunch when you were away.

I hope you didn't violate your marriage, but if you did, that is something to deal with in MC. Disclosing that to your wife under pressure is probably not the best time/place if you want to repair your relationship. Assuming you didn't, then if you took a nice walk in the park, or saw a good movie, then that is up to you to share it or not. However, if your wife's real unasked and unanswered question is " did you sleep with someone"? and all you say is that you saw a movie, I imagine she would still be thinking you are hiding something. If you didn't, may be better to say, no, I didn't see anyone, I spent time to myself ( at the movies, bookstore) and hung out with Fred.

Maybe you flirted with someone, but IMHO, I don't think a brief flirtation is something to disclose right now to your wife. If it literally led to nothing, and there is no contact, revealing a brief temptation that is over may end up being a major issue in your marriage. I think it is important to have boundaries about avoiding flirting when married, but you were trying on being free- yet were still married. The point being, the vow was still honored, even if tempted. That to me is the important part, but to someone with poor self image, the tempted would be more significant. I think if one really wants to repair their marriage, they could use professional guidance with such "confessions".

If a marriage is at the point where one person walks out, then that is a bigger issue than a brief flirtation. In the long run, I hope you get some support with that.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

What is the expectation for a couple to share everything? Is privacy allowed? I am not talking about things that violate marriage vows, but the limits of individuality/togetherness in a marriage. Certainly, if my H is working on a project at work and a colleague tells him something in confidence- I don't expect to be told that. Same with me. I don't feel I need to recount every picky detail of my day to my H. But somehow I don't think your wife is hinting at what did you have for lunch when you were away.

His description of their conversation sounds exactly like the way my w communicates.  My w will explicitly say she believes there should be no privacy in a marriage.  This leads to all sorts of fun conversations, because if I remember something someone told me a few weeks ago, I'm accused of hiding it, even though I just shared it (but there must be a reason I didn't share it earlier... .).

I too am not the most talkative, and not "read-able" according to her.  Years ago our MC told my w that not everyone wears their emotions on their sleeves, so if she want's to know what I'm thinking she should ask... .pretty basic advice.  She still state she shouldn't have to ask, and her not trusting me is directly related to the fact that she can't "read" me.

I guess it boils down to I understand not responding to the hints... .I view it as similar to not taking responsibility for a non's emotions... .I'm not responsible for figuring out what she wants to know.  I'm responsible for being honest and transparent.

[ArleighBurke]

She says I am entitled to privacy, but not secrecy. I asked her what the difference was, and she pulled an internet article stating "secrecy comes from a place of shame/fear". It's a topic we'll never agree on... .

But last night I "told her" about my week... .

Me: I'm not sure why you don't want to ask about my week away, but i'm happy to tell you. I... .

Her: I'm worried about why you are being secretative and not opening up - not sharing with me.

Me: I did tell you about going out on the friday night with a friend - there was nothing else of note. I didn't sleep with anyone, hug anyone, kiss anyone - I didn't even see anyone naked. Mostly I went bike riding - I think I did about 200km over the week. The riding cleared my head and gave me lots of thinking time.

Her: I don't care what you did. What i can't understand is - and i know you're a boy and can compartmentalise - how could you go and have a great time when i was here hurting and having to manage the house and the kids?

Me: You know that wasn't my first choice. [We've already has conversations where I've pointed out to her how much we talked in the preceeding weekend, with her backing me into a corner, and when I left I offered HER to leave and me stay with the kids]

Her: Who did you talk to? How did you change mindset to come back? How could we work things out when you're not here - when you didn't talk to me. Whenever you called that week we just talked about nothing - day to day stuff. It wasn't until Friday before we really talked about us. [This is when my brother emailed her - I think that made it real for her]. And you changed you mind becuase I said the right thing?

Me: (silence - just waiting... .)

Her: We've talked so openly since you've been back - maybe that was just the catalyst we needed.

So she's obviously trying to process everything - trying to work out how I was feeling, what i am feeling now, how could I hurt her! I've told her I left because I loved her but couldn't have her (I was saying I wanted more time with her, she was saying she couldn't give it) - I'm not sure she can process that either. But it surprises me - she is high functioning and she KNOWS the logic - she KNOWS her behaviours - she can tell me logically everything about her - but then she listens to her emotions and things get funny. How strange!

[Notwendy]

Her: We've talked so openly since you've been back - maybe that was just the catalyst we needed.


I am wondering if she is thinking of you leaving as a singular episode- something may have made you decide to leave and something else made you decide to come back- what "made" you ( as if it is external) decide these things? I understand this is a lot to process, but I think she is looking for answers, which is natural.

How you could do anything fun while she was hurting is puzzling her. The idea that you too were hurting, yet you could do some kind of activity is puzzling to someone who thinks in black and white. You either are miserable or you are not. But people can be feeling more than one emotion at the same time, as well as engage in activities that are enjoyable- possibly to cope, or just get a break. It is evident that you were not enjoying yourself during this time, even if you did do things like see friends, but that may be hard to process.



In actuality, this was not a singular event that is over now that you are home. It was not a process of two decisions- I am leaving, I am coming back. She may be looking at this singular event- he left, now he's back, good, we are OK. Yet the issues that led to your leaving are complicated. Your decision to return is one of hope and a commitment to work on these issues. It is a beginning, not an ending. Yet even with a commitment to work on the marriage, the two of you still have the same relationship skills you had when you left. This could mean forgiving her for doing what she only knows to do, and you taking steps to learn something new. If the two of you backslide, it is likely because this is what you know now.

She is looking for answers. Perhaps one is " Honey, certain stresses became overwhelming to me, and I needed to clear my mind on my own. I returned with the hope that we can be better. This could take some work on both our parts to learn to relate to each other better. It may take some time,  but I am willing work at it through (MC or what you have chosen) and I think this is a better place to discuss them. "

Then leave it at that, as explaining a lot of issues/emotions can turn into a conflicted discussion. Sometimes these issues are better discussed with the help of a T. Keeping an explanation focus on you " I was overwhelmed" instead of her " you are difficult to live with" is less triggering.

Her: We've talked so openly since you've been back - maybe that was just the catalyst we needed.

This reminds me of my BPD mother's looking for a reason to explain something or the one thing that will fix some issue that is external- not related to anything she did. She was aware there were issues between her and my father, however, the reasons were simplistic and did not focus on her contribution. Even if she had the self awareness of them, I think it would have triggered too much shame to admit them.

So she would say things like " we need this vacation to fix the marriage because the problem is Dad's stress at work"- so the vacation would fix it.  Or she would dysregulate and then say that she was reminded of something that happened years ago- probably true, she understood triggers, but it isn't just one stress, or one event that was a singular cause of the issues they faced. Yet, she would think "this is the one thing" about it. Clearly she wanted to improve things too, but with the skills she had at the time, and the lack of understanding of BPD and treatment, all she knew to do was what she knew. Same for my father, as just like any relationship, he had his part in it. We can really only change our part.

[waverider]

she is most likely asking for black and white recounting to account for decisions as wendy points out. But in reality that is not what she needs to hear, or nor are you going to be able to satisfy her with.

What most likely works best is a general overview, without volunteering too much detail anywhere with lots of reassurance, this normalizes it. otherwise she could inadvertently push you into JADE mode thereby finding something to make an issue of.

She is listening to your tone and attitude change as much as anything. In these situations it is hard not to get frustrated and giving smart sarcastic responses

[Grey Kitty]

    Her: You're being secretive.

    Me: I'm happy for you to know anything about the week. What would you like to know?

   Her: No. I'm not going to ask you questions. You should *want* to share with me - to be open. Making me ask you is a powerplay. You're using the knowledge you have as power over me.

You asked if you were behaving badly, and I didn't see it. What she just said here is bad behavior--she's telling you what you are supposed to think, and trying to put you back into the FOG about it.

She's probably not even aware she did it. Most likely she's feeling hurt, and is looking for a way to make you responsible so she doesn't have to deal with it. (And unaware of that as well)

I hope you are able to get time bicycling and time with your own thoughts now that you are back. It is good for you.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

She says I am entitled to privacy, but not secrecy. I asked her what the difference was, and she pulled an internet article stating "secrecy comes from a place of shame/fear". It's a topic we'll never agree on... .

But last night I "told her" about my week... .

Me: I'm not sure why you don't want to ask about my week away, but i'm happy to tell you. I... .

Her: I'm worried about why you are being secretative and not opening up - not sharing with me.

Me: I did tell you about going out on the friday night with a friend - there was nothing else of note. I didn't sleep with anyone, hug anyone, kiss anyone - I didn't even see anyone naked. Mostly I went bike riding - I think I did about 200km over the week. The riding cleared my head and gave me lots of thinking time.

Her: I don't care what you did. What i can't understand is - and i know you're a boy and can compartmentalise - how could you go and have a great time when i was here hurting and having to manage the house and the kids?

Me: You know that wasn't my first choice. [We've already has conversations where I've pointed out to her how much we talked in the preceeding weekend, with her backing me into a corner, and when I left I offered HER to leave and me stay with the kids]

Her: Who did you talk to? How did you change mindset to come back? How could we work things out when you're not here - when you didn't talk to me. Whenever you called that week we just talked about nothing - day to day stuff.  she listens to her emotions and things get funny. How strange!

My uBPDw is the opposite, gets anxious if I'm anywhere without her because there might be females there and that's how affairs start... .

So even though they're coming from opposite perspectives... .I'm amazed at how similar the conversations can be... .