Good Boy Points

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am not really sure how to even approach this. STBX has been out of the house since the beginning of March. He stayed with his mom the first three weeks and has been back in town for the last two or three weeks. I have been trying to let him see the kids. I know he chats with them online via Skype and another platform.

One of the things that I am wrestling with is the fact that the kids don't really have any interest in seeing him that much. And, they have expressed a preference to see him when I am around. I have asked them why and their response is that he is annoying. They feel better when I am around even if I am just hiding in my room. He is not in a position to take the kids to where he is staying so he comes to our house for visits.

He has been great at doing some of the stuff around the house that I have been needing done for years. When he lived there, he couldn't do those things. Now that he is gone, he is doing pretty much whatever I ask him to do with regards to the house, etc. Today, one of the kids noticed that something was fixed and I told her that daddy fixed it while he was there on Sunday. She was happy about it. Her comment was, "Oh yeah, daddy wants to earn those good boy points so he can work his way back in."   

The kids see right through his crap and seem to get annoyed with me because I am trying to get it across to them that he is their dad and that he should be able to see them. He loves them, blah, blah, blah. The kids routinely comment on how much better things are without him around.

I guess I am looking for some insight on how to deal with a situation where the kids do not want to be around dad and find him annoying. The 7 year old has no problem going up to him and saying, ":)ad, you can leave now." When she says that, he gets up, tells everyone goodbye, and leaves. The one time I asked him to leave, he balked at it, and made a big deal to the kids that I asked him to leave. He asked me, in front of the oldest, if he had done anything wrong.

I am trying to take charge of the situation and make it clear to the kids that dad will come visit on Sundays and spend the day with them. I am trying to figure out how to help him succeed with the kids.

[vortex of confusion]

I am not really sure how to even approach this. STBX has been out of the house since the beginning of March. He stayed with his mom the first three weeks and has been back in town for the last two or three weeks. I have been trying to let him see the kids. I know he chats with them online via Skype and another platform.

One of the things that I am wrestling with is the fact that the kids don't really have any interest in seeing him that much. And, they have expressed a preference to see him when I am around. I have asked them why and their response is that he is annoying. They feel better when I am around even if I am just hiding in my room. He is not in a position to take the kids to where he is staying so he comes to our house for visits.

He has been great at doing some of the stuff around the house that I have been needing done for years. When he lived there, he couldn't do those things. Now that he is gone, he is doing pretty much whatever I ask him to do with regards to the house, etc. Today, one of the kids noticed that something was fixed and I told her that daddy fixed it while he was there on Sunday. She was happy about it. Her comment was, "Oh yeah, daddy wants to earn those good boy points so he can work his way back in."   

The kids see right through his crap and seem to get annoyed with me because I am trying to get it across to them that he is their dad and that he should be able to see them. He loves them, blah, blah, blah. The kids routinely comment on how much better things are without him around.

I guess I am looking for some insight on how to deal with a situation where the kids do not want to be around dad and find him annoying. The 7 year old has no problem going up to him and saying, ":)ad, you can leave now." When she says that, he gets up, tells everyone goodbye, and leaves. The one time I asked him to leave, he balked at it, and made a big deal to the kids that I asked him to leave. He asked me, in front of the oldest, if he had done anything wrong.

I am trying to take charge of the situation and make it clear to the kids that dad will come visit on Sundays and spend the day with them. I am trying to figure out how to help him succeed with the kids.

[Herodias]

Well, they say kids see through people pretty quickly and they do seem to tell it like it is. I am sure that doesn't help their Dad feel good about himself. Since pwBPD are such "kids" themselves... .maybe he should play games or do something fun with them so they enjoy seeing him instead of him working around the house trying to help you. I am sure he is trying to impress you, but he should be making an impression on them. Find something they can do to have fun together... .just a thought.

[vortex of confusion]

Well, they say kids see through people pretty quickly and they do seem to tell it like it is. I am sure that doesn't help their Dad feel good about himself. Since pwBPD are such "kids" themselves... .maybe he should play games or do something fun with them so they enjoy seeing him instead of him working around the house trying to help you. I am sure he is trying to impress you, but he should be making an impression on them. Find something they can do to have fun together... .just a thought.

I have tried that. We have tons of board games and I have suggested that they play board games together. My latest success was having all of us work on putting up the swimming pool and him hanging out with them while they swim. I have spent years trying to make recommendations and suggestions for things that they can do together that are fun.

One time, I told him that a friend and I were thinking about taking the kids bowling. He said, "But I want to be the one to take the kids bowling." I asked him why he hadn't. His response, "I just hadn't gotten around to it."

Even his attempts to do fun stuff seem to be dismissed by the kids. The kids have made it up in their heads that dad is no fun. Even when he is trying to be fun, they find him annoying. I know exactly what they mean because there is something about his interactions that seem fake and insincere. It does not feel like he is doing any of this because that is what he genuinely wants to do. It is like he is doing this stuff because somebody else (his mom, friends, 12 step people) are telling him that this is what he should be doing.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think it could be a good idea that if he is coming over on Sunday's that you simply leave and have VOC time.  And even make this a regular expected practice.

It is healthy for them all to work out their relationship with dad on their own.  I think without you there, without the option of dad simply leaving or kids 'kicking' him out... .They all will have to accept dad as a presence in their life, including dad.  :)ad can more focus on kids.

The way it is now feels like a triangle to me and kids turn to you to be rescued from the discomfort of engaging with dad, in some form.  They all sound dependent on you for their relationship with dad, even dad.

Dad may actually have more interest in impressing you in some ways as BH mentions.  All the more reason to leave.  

It communicates to all: I trust you all to find your own way in your relationship.  I am my own person separate from dad, (you do not need to have a relationship with him through me in any way.) Dad may have quirks, but he is trustworthy for being a dad/your dad.

Separating from dad during his visits by making yourself completely unavailable, (somewhere else) could really help the kids to learn to be individuals, not just by being allowed an independent experience, but by your modeling that people separate and stay whole. (Very needed after divorce)

(Disclaimer: the above was written with the assumption that dad is safe.  Also, that I have seen VOC posts previously and trust your insight in whether dad is safe and such, and know you would not replace my opinion for your own wisdom and insight, rather take and leave what is needed.)

Edit: Even if dad were to sit and watch TV and be awkward.  I still think this is better than no dad and should be embraced vs criticized.  There will be interactions that happen spontaneously that still define him as dad.  Someone will scrape a knee, need his help, etc.  He will have to be the goto adult at the moment, and being dad can still happen even if it is not entertaining, but simply dad fixing a door knob and doing what is comfy for him to contribute.  The kids sound like they are disappointed that dad does not meet their expectations.  Even kids need RA. 

[vortex of confusion]

I think it could be a good idea that if he is coming over on Sunday's that you simply leave and have VOC time.  And even make this a regular expected practice.

I work on Sundays. The arrangement is for him to come after I leave for work. After work, I goof off and try to get home late so he has more time with the kids without me.

It is healthy for them all to work out their relationship with dad on their own.  I think without you there, without the option of dad simply leaving or kids 'kicking' him out... .They all will have to accept dad as a presence in their life, including dad.  :)ad can more focus on kids.

Even if dad can focus on the kids, he doesn't. There are other nights of the week when I work. He could try to come see the kids then. He hasn't even mentioned it. He talks to the oldest online. He is off living his life and doing his thing.

The way it is now feels like a triangle to me and kids turn to you to be rescued from the discomfort of engaging with dad, in some form.  They all sound dependent on you for their relationship with dad, even dad.

If the kids are uncomfortable engaging with dad because they feel like they have to walk on eggshells or appease him, then I think they need a reliable adult to save them. It is up to me to be their advocate. It is up to me to help the kids navigate these difficult situations.

Separating from dad during his visits by making yourself completely unavailable, (somewhere else) could really help the kids to learn to be individuals, not just by being allowed an independent experience, but by your modeling that people separate and stay whole. (Very needed after divorce)

I am confused by this. I go to work. My oldest is old enough to babysit now. The younger three kids have very clearly stated that they would rather hang out with their big sister than dad. I have given the kids a list of people to call on when I am at work. Their person of choice is grandma, not dad.

At one time, I thought dad was perfectly safe. The anxiety that the kids experience around him has me questioning whether or not he is truly safe. I have talked to the kids at length and all I can get is that dad is annoying and that they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around him.

Edit: Even if dad were to sit and watch TV and be awkward.  I still think this is better than no dad and should be embraced vs criticized.  There will be interactions that happen spontaneously that still define him as dad.  Someone will scrape a knee, need his help, etc.  He will have to be the goto adult at the moment, and being dad can still happen even if it is not entertaining, but simply dad fixing a door knob and doing what is comfy for him to contribute.  The kids sound like they are disappointed that dad does not meet their expectations.  Even kids need RA. 

Dad acts like a kid like them. The girls have gotten really good at helping each other. If I am not home, they look out for each other. They would rather go to each other or deal with it themselves than ask dad for help.

Is a kid supposed to radically accept and suck up the fact that dad is more immature than them? Is a kid supposed to radically accept a person that they have to walk on eggshells around? They are not disappointed that dad does not meet their expectations. They are friggin' hurt by dad's rejection. Dad has rejected them in hundreds of small ways over the years. I am sorry but I don't think that a kid should radically accept being rejected by a parent. I don't think a kid should have to radically accept all of the ways that he is dismissive. This is about way more than my kids being disappointed that dad does not meet their expectations.

Why is it that I, as an adult, have a choice to limit contact with this person but my kids don't? Why the heck are kids forced to be around somebody that they don't like just because he fathered them? It makes me so mad that a jerk like my husband has more rights and more say than an innocent kid that did nothing to deserve this crap.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am limited on thought processing abilities... .

However, I can see I misunderstood. Sorry!

Somehow I got the impression that as he was visiting that you were off in another room within the home... .on most/all occasions.

My point tho was to value even a half a$$ dad over no dad.  However, I realize personal values differ, and I am not soaking in all the details of the circumstances well enough.

Hopefully I can respond better when I can soak in it all!

(Meaning more accurately digest the words of the thread)

[Herodias]

I read that once the children reach about 5, they begin to become more mature than their parent with a PD. Sad for them, but interesting they see it. I read that at another stage, the PD parent try's to control their children. Google what you can on the subject. Sorry you are having a hard time with all of this... .the main thing is to protect the kids and what you are trying to do is create a safe environment for them. I think you are doing your best. It's hard to know. Sometimes I think about my own story... .my Dad drank allot and left when I was 18. I remember it being really hard. Hard living with him and then hard when he was no longer part of our life. He only talks to us on Xmas and our birthdays. I rarely see him. I suppose it has messed me up in my relationships from this past, but we all have our own stories. You kids will have their own story. You just need to make sure they know they are loved and teach them the right way to live, in a kind way. It may be better for you that they see the truth opposed to living a false reality. Some people hide things from the kids and then they don't really know what happened. We all try to do our best. I think it's unfair too, but life is very unfair. Somehow, this is their story and this may make them stronger for what ever the plan is for their future. There is no easy answer... .

[vortex of confusion]

Somehow I got the impression that as he was visiting that you were off in another room within the home... .on most/all occasions.

The pre-agreed upon day is a day when I work and am not around. He has come over on days when I am not working. On those days, I am off in another room. He has brought stuff over, like groceries, and hung out for a little while. He could come over on the other nights when I work. He chooses to do his own thing on those nights.

My point tho was to value even a half a$$ dad over no dad.  However, I realize personal values differ, and I am not soaking in all the details of the circumstances well enough.

There are times when I think that no dad would be better than this half hearted crap of doing barely enough. Sometimes, I think it would be easier to deal with one great big rejection ONE time than to deal with a whole bunch of never ending rejections. He came over yesterday to bring some stuff for the pool. I went to my room. After a bit, the kids slowly started trickling in. I asked one of the girls why she wasn't hanging out with dad. He had fallen asleep sitting on the couch. She made the comment, "If he wants them good boy points, he needs to play with us and stuff."

[vortex of confusion]

I read that once the children reach about 5, they begin to become more mature than their parent with a PD. Sad for them, but interesting they see it.

I think all of my kids are more mature than dad. All of the kids see it and they have become really good at caretaking dad. Each of the girls have their own way of dealing with him that range from caretaking to complete rejection.

the main thing is to protect the kids and what you are trying to do is create a safe environment for them.

In my opinion, part of creating a safe environment is to empower them to set boundaries for themselves and recognize when dad is behaving in juvenile ways. If he is checked out on the computer or watching TV, they can pretty much ignore him or tolerate him. If he is being a jerk, then they need to know that they can call on me or grandma or even run get the neighbor. Yes, I have discussed safety plans with them for when I am not around.

Some people hide things from the kids and then they don't really know what happened. We all try to do our best. I think it's unfair too, but life is very unfair. Somehow, this is their story and this may make them stronger for what ever the plan is for their future. There is no easy answer... .

The kids know why I asked him to leave. Before he left, he had talked about leaving after he got a job. The oldest was so eager to get him out of the house that she would ask me why I couldn't just kick him out instead of waiting. In the month since he has been gone, the kids seem to have grown up and I am slowly working on building up their confidence. As the oldest put it, "He treated us like we were 5. Whenever we would try to do stuff, he would try to help and it came across as we were incompetent and stupid."

There was one time when I was baking a cake with the youngest. She and I have a system where I measure the ingredients out and she does the rest. She and I have done this numerous times. He had to come in and offer some kind of suggestion even though she and I have our system. Her response was, "I know dad. I am not dumb." So many times, he has made the kids and I feel dumb because of his unsolicited advice or adding his two cents.

And then there is his checking out. When you want/need his help, he is unavailable. When you have everything under control, then he is offering his help/advice and trying to add his two cents. There is no way that stuff like that could be hidden.

The stuff that is hidden is the stuff that is of a much more sensitive nature. My kids will never know about some of the stuff that he had done to me. I should have left a long time ago based solely on him being checked out as a parent. I can, in perfectly good conscience, tell the kids that I love their dad. I can't live with him because he and I have lost our ability to get along and I don't want them to think that the stuff that has been going on is normal.