S6 Saying Disturbing Things Again

[Turkish]

His mom called me late last night. She's concerned about our son, in that he once again dysregulated and told her that he just wants to die. This isn't the first time, but he hasn't said it in a while. Even my BPD mom, who lived with us from Dec-April, picked up on the fact that S6 had a lot of anger. I think this time it was due to some incident with kids being mean to him. Or that could be what he felt was safe to say to her.

1. Rejection sensitivity

2. Inappropriate anger

3. Mother with BPD traits (and diagnosed depression)

4. Child of divorce

At risk kid.

Anyone else have their kids say these things when triggered? He's never told me something like that, though I've experienced many tantrums. She's going to touch base with the school counselor (who strangely hasn't shared much with us, so we need to be proactive, apparently), and I'm going to get a child psych referral through our HMO.

[Thunderstruck]

Do you think he's witnessed mom saying this, and he's parroting her behavior? That could be why he might say it around her and not around you.

SD11 has said many hateful things when triggered, but no talk of wanting to die. (at least not to us).

One time uBPDbm made a claim that SD(I think she was 8 at the time) said "I will kill myself if Thunderstruck and daddy get married". We went to the school psychologist, who then had to mandatorily report it to CPS. SD said that it was uBPDbm who made that comment (and in her disassociated state, attributed it to SD) and that she didn't want to hurt herself.

[Turkish]

I don't think it came from his mom. She was (and I think still is?) good about hiding her depression from the kids. She used to wait until they were asleep... .or she'd leave and go to work out.

She called me after I posted. This recent incident was related to being rejected from playing soccer with a family in their complex. S6 asked the dad to join, and he joined. S6 kicked the ball the wrong direction. Culturally, the game is a big deal. So I they asked him to leave, nicely. S6 started crying. Then D4 started crying because she wanted to have the ball. So my Ex was there, publicly, with two kids breaking down.  When my Ex talked to our son, that is when he said what he said.

I talked to a guy at work, and he said his son (who similar to my son, has anger issues and also above average intelligence) used to say things like that, but now by 6th grade, he is learning to control his temper better. Overreact-er.

We should be able to talk to his school counselor in the next day or so, to get her feedback on what's been going on with him.

What I didn't like was that she said that she should listen to her mom more, and be tougher on the kids. There is a grain of truth there, but that is undefined, and based upon the issues that all of my Ex's siblings have to varying degrees, I'm not keen on following grandma's parenting style.

[daughterandmom]

I have an extremely intelligent son who is now 26. As a small child he had trouble with anger- I remember when he was still crawling, he was under the dining room table and bumped his head on one of the legs. He got very angry and red faced and tried to hit the leg repeatedly. Another time I remember him unloading the dishwasher at about 8 and he closed the drawer on his hand accidentally and got so angry that he started stabbing the wood with a knife. He got better over time, but the teen years were occasionally rough. He never said he wanted to die, but he did run out in the kitchen and hold a knife to his wrist and say he would kill himself right now.

But the good news is he is now 26, lives on his own, works in high tech and makes seven figures. Long term girlfriend, calm personality, no issues with people in personal life or at work.

Sometimes I think the smarter they are the harder it is to get through the managing emotions stuff.

Just my two cents--

[Turkish]

While eating dinner and working on his Lego models (he gets obsessive about them), my son told me about wanting to die. I didn't prompt him. He talked about a mean girl taking away the soccer ball, and him hiding in the bushes. He wasn't emotional, but he was talking matter-of-factly. I asked him why he wanted to die. He said that it was so he could go to heaven. This doesn't sound like a kid who is chronically depressed. He associates Heaven as a place where he will be safe (emotionally). I got them to bed fine. We read an e-book. Other than he wanting to eat a Lunchable for dinner, no dysregulations. He explained that his mind wanted to each the Lunchable (a prepackaged meat, cheese, and cracker snack to anybody outside of North America), even that he knew it was for school tomorrow.

I imagine death talk is concerning for a parent, but maybe his mom is overreacting... .and I went along for the ride. I know she feels immemse guilt for leaving the way she did. My instict at this point is to dial this one back, and not validate the invalid (her anxiety).

[Sunfl0wer]

My instict at this point is to dial this one back, and not validate the invalid (her anxiety).

While this incident alone may or may not be concerning... .

Another option is to use this as an opportunity to get S6 help.

Counseling or behavior therapy may be helpful as I realize there have been other behavior concerns.

He can always be evaluated and behaviors such as thoughts of death and touching brought to their attention, let the professionals decide.  If a professional wants to state no reason for concern, then maybe that can help alleviate mom's anxiety.  That alone is a valid reason to seek help.  Therapy is not "to fix" S6 but can be to help mom and family understand and put into perspective S6 behaviors and thoughts, help everyone feel secure and support him in the best way.  He does sound like he is struggling with some big concepts, no matter where he picked them up from.

What do you think?

[Sunfl0wer]

He wasn't emotional, but he was talking matter-of-factly. I asked him why he wanted to die. He said that it was so he could go to heaven. This doesn't sound like a kid who is chronically depressed. He associates Heaven as a place where he will be safe (emotionally).

Most people who go on to kill themselves start out having ideas of death.  They do not actually want to die.  They simply want to escape the pain of living yet see no other way to do so.

Depressed people do not always appear depressed 24/7 and males actually present way different than females sometimes not really appearing depressed but appearing more agitated than sorrowful.  There is a range of how depression presents.  Depression is also not a requirement for suicide thoughts to be concerning and valid for seeking professional advisement.

Please find a way to give your son another option for sorting through his feelings that includes a professional adult that is not a parent.

[Turkish]

Now it's more complicated. Tonight is my 2/2 nights. Their mom called me. There's been a bullying issue in the class. Other parents have complained. My Ex told me tonight that the kid was moved to another class. She also said that the school told her that they didn't like to use the term bully at this age, but it's obvious what the problem kindergartener is. Our son only told me about the kids at her complex. He doesn't talk about the kids at school. I asked him last night, "who was mean to you today? Who was nice?" No one and everyone. I didn't ask this tonight. We had an incident where he was squirting the chihuhua inside of her cage. I got mad, he threw a tantrum... .but we were ok by bedtime.

My Ex usually picks up the kids from school. He came home with another note from the nurse's office. S6 and the "bully" with some cohorts were playing zombies. They jumped on our son and threw him to the ground. He got up, they did it again. His mom was so pissed that she wanted to drive back to the school and talk to the principal, but realized it wouldn't be a good idea in her heightened emotional state. Good for her.

Then she told S6 that the next time the kid tried anything, to punch him hard once, and he would stop. Our son responded, "but Mommy, God says to do unto others as we would have them do to us." She started breaking up and crying as she told me this. I said that he was a wise boy. She said, "I know!" And reali zed that he was right. I said that as upsetting as this was, if he punches a kid, he'll get in big trouble. She said that she knows. I discussed, as an aside, that if they were adults, that given what happened, punching back because someone grabs you would be illegal. There are rules of engagement (I took defense training and asked... .though if you are a woman on the street attacked by a male, save your life, as that's different than two similarly sized males).

This is where her aggressivenes comes in handy, though I need to be there to support it tomorrow morning. If they give any flack, pullng the, "our son has been saying that he wants to die because kids are being mean to him," card. That will get their attention. We can also loop in the school counselor here. She was off site at a meeting today, so I just passed on a message that we wanted to meet.

[Turkish]

My Ex talked to the mom of the bully boy. S6 was in his line for the other class. I was watching D4, but was within earshot. My Ex kept it under control and talked reasonably. What was odd, and we talked about this later, was that the mom didn't seem to react much either way. She said, "Son, I told you to stop hitting people," but her tone carried neither emotion nor conviction. If it were me, and another parent came to me, I think I would either rise to the defense of my kid, or get mad at the kid (either for embarassing our family, or for being a bully in the first place). I got the feeling that the mom didn't want to deal with it.

We have a meeting with the principal on Monday. We did talk to the school counselor, who is on site, but doesn't work for the school system, but rather the local community health clinic. I told her what our son had been saying about death. She agreed that that would be concerning to hear that, especially from a 6 year old. I didn't say that he had said that last year, too, when his mom did whatever she did, nor that he told his mom to run out into traffic, get run over by a car and die. Gotta keep a united front on this one as far as the school is concerned.

My Ex told me last night that she was talking to one of the other moms there, and the mom was glad she had said something. She was waiting in line with the kids, and the bully kid, before he got transferred, grabbed her son by the head and threw him to the ground. She was afraid of making waves (she's a quiet woman, and her son seems very nice--- he's a small kid, too). The mother of the bully is a big woman. I can't believe no one else (other parents) in the line reacted. I would have been pissed.

I feel badly for the bully kid. I volunteered as a field trip chaperone in October, and though part of the rambunctious crowd, I didn't observe that the kid was cruel. This is where it starts, and at a certain point, their life's path is mostly set. Who knows what's going on at home? The mother seemed kind of odd. Maybe there's violence in that household. Much older, my Ex used to get into fights, too, sometimes.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am going to go out on a limb and dare to be more brutally honest than I wonder I should, cause I never can tell if it may be helpful in advance.  Hindsight being the 20/20 it is.  Sometimes speaking is the less harmful thing to do in life.

Possibility:

Mom engages in drama triangle to cope... .

S6 is seen by her as 'a problem' due to his behaviors. (Speaking of death)

Mom resolves this by assigning him new role as a victim and her the savior.

I am not saying that S6 is not a possible victim of bullying.  

I am saying... .

Has mom now possibly is dealing with some internal cognitive dissonace of S6 behaviors by her focus on drama triangle shifting.  Maybe she was feeling defensive over S6 behavior and is relieved for 'an explanation?'

She effectively recruited support in a positive way for S6 school issue of bullying.  Great!

Is she also still maintaining her concern for S6 words of death?

Has she 'erased' this problem or is she independently/internally still worried over it?

S6 has some heavy thoughts for a young fella.  Sounds great you two are able to go to counselor for him. 

I imagine that bullying is a valid upset in his life.  I also imagine he has other things weighing on his mind as well that are wanting their own validation.

In any event, this sounds like a great opportunity for counseling, good work!

How are you doing Turkish? 

[Turkish]

Not to "rescue" my Ex, but saving kids from things like this is a parent role in some cases. However,

given her black and white thinking, she may be making more of this than is necessary. Threatening to retain legal representation is a bit over the top at this point. It could also be that she is hurt because he is hurt. Again, how much of that is normal empathy, and how much of that is projective identification is hard to tell.

She sent me a text the other night, just before she had called, which said "Tell S6 that I love him and that he is a champion and that I'm proud of him." I was just putting the kids to bed. I blew it off because it seemed weird and a over-the-top. I texted her back and asked if she wanted to talk to them (thereafter she called), but they had fallen asleep within minutes. Given that she subsequently told me why, it still seems weird and over-the-top. She's the one who picked him up from school and had seen him a few hours previously.

The bump I foresee is that she needs to be honest, in that he's talked like this before, but only with her. I don't really like her, but when we are on kid business, I'm like Spock. The counselor even commented on how she liked that we co-parented.

In any case, back to what you said about she being relieved that there is an "explanation," this has only come up within the past 6 months. He was angry before, due to how she left, and how she handles (or doesn't) him. That's the part where it will be tricky if we get him to our health care provider's T and they want a background. I won't tolerate lies. She still feels shame, and like pwBPD, she alternates between shame and anger. There is no need to shame her more, but this isn't about her, or me, it's about our son.

Me? Blew off driving 120 miles to rescue my BPD mom from her hoard. Got fencing material to fix a few boards in the back (because the neighbor won't), but it's so windy I couldn't stop sneezing, so I'm stuck inside.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Turkish,

I must say, you sound exceptionally clear and well balanced about the whole situation.  Able to identify what is her stuff, regular parent stuff, and over the top stuff, which is often quite a disorienting mess for us to sort out.

Your role you describe, acting as an intermediary between mom's hyperbole and the kids experience at bedtime, seems spot on to me. 

Not to "rescue" my Ex, but saving kids from things like this is a parent role in some cases. However, given her black and white thinking, she may be making more of this than is necessary. Threatening to retain legal representation is a bit over the top at this point. It could also be that she is hurt because he is hurt. Again, how much of that is normal empathy, and how much of that is projective identification is hard to tell.

I agree. 

I don't think it matters so much that you specifically sort it all out.  Just that you are aware of her tendencies and validating the children's perception of reality when they are with you. (vs inserting mom's reality to replace one they would have created for themselves, good example of this below where she calls at bedtime.) 

As a person also raised by a pwBPD, one of the most damaging affects to me was having to push my own feelings about a situation aside, to process mom's feelings and perceptions.  It was a continuous bombardment to my system that left me feeling invisible and without a sense of self.  I still often catch myself processing others feelings before my own.

In any case, back to what you said about she being relieved that there is an "explanation," this has only come up within the past 6 months. He was angry before, due to how she left, and how she handles (or doesn't) him. That's the part where it will be tricky if we get him to our health care provider's T and they want a background. I won't tolerate lies. She still feels shame, and like pwBPD, she alternates between shame and anger. There is no need to shame her more, but this isn't about her, or me, it's about our son.

Yes, I imagine being honest without shaming her is tricky.  Yet, if T asks a question with you both present, and mom answers, there really is no need to correct it at that time, as mom is offering her perception. You will have a bunch of options for crossing this bridge when you get to it.

It really at this point doesn't matter so much if T is helping S6 through bullying issues at school, or actual issues with mom, as in all therapy, the focus is actually on the client and while the context may change, what he needs emotionally/therapeutically likely is mostly the same, in some ways. My sense was that S6 can simply benefit from having an outside adult he can relate to on a more personal level than say his teachers and feel someone is on his side to make life seem more tolerable to cope with?  I'm not sure though what your thoughts are? 

Me? Blew off driving 120 miles to rescue my BPD mom from her hoard. Got fencing material to fix a few boards in the back (because the neighbor won't), but it's so windy I couldn't stop sneezing, so I'm stuck inside.

I don't know how you do it.  I couldn't keep up the care for my mom, it is more taxing on me than anyone could realize it would be.  Hats off to you!

[Turkish]

We had lunch yesterday. My Ex was talking about putting both kids into martial arts 

I asked why. She said so that they could learn discipline... .and also how to defend themselves. I told her that IMO that was a big money pit at this age, and all but refused to support it with my money or time. If she brings it up again, I'll be clear. I told her that my old boxing instructor said that he taught 9-10 year olds, but that only about 2/10 kids were focused enough to make it worth the time.

I never took an Oriental martial art, but I did box for 7 years. I used to stop and observe a MA class for kids a year ago when we had our son doing soccer at the indoor sports complex. Some of the kids (about 8-11 in the class observed) were ok, but a few of them weren't performing the techniques seriously, meaning, I imagined myself easily landing a punch (if I were that size) because they weren't utilizing proper defense. My old boxing instructor teaches boxing techniques to MMA fighters in Bay Area.

I also talked to a buddy, whose son is 9. He's kind of like S6, a passive kid. He had his son in karate for 3 years and concluded that it was a waste of money. His son's passivity didn't change. That's just his personality. After a few years, my buddy concluded that even though it bothers him that his son kind of lets kids roll over him sometimes, that that's just who he is. He's confident otherwise.



We had the meeting today with the principal, counselor, and school nurse (and D4 who behaved herself).

After we talked Friday, the school had put in a separate plan to deal with the other child. They couldn't give us details due to confidentiality. They also said that it was observed that S6 sought out this group of kids to play with, and that they were trying to talk to him about not seeking them out if he got hurt. They encouraged us to do the same (boundaries), and the counselor and principal liked my idea of putting his arms up in a blocking fashion (not punching like their mom wanted him to do... .which the school doesn't know).

All in all it went well. My Ex didn't make any legal threats, which she wanted to do last week. She was asked not to approach another parent or talk to a child about such issues, because if it happens on school grounds, then the responsibility lands on the principal. My Ex told them what she said (leaving out dropping the legal threat). The other mom went directly to the principal to complain last Friday. My Ex seemed satisfied. It was news to me that our son was seeking these kids out (and the funny thing is that S6 thinks it's all right if the kids apologized after). We did mention that our son talked about dying. My Ex, didn't mention that he's done that twice before... .but on her time, not related to school. No need to complicate things at this point.

[Sunfl0wer]

Well, my son is quite shy and has been somewhat passive.  He actually had a phenomenal Tae Kwon Do experience.  It was worth every cent and minute of my time as a struggling single mom going to college and working part time.  I signed him up because I was worried about our neighborhood being a lot rougher than what he can deal with, he is socially awkward, and was clumsy. 

So my son never left class with a changed personality.  What he did leave with was knowing some kids in school he didn't know before. (Ones who could defend themselves) The kids from the class now said hello to him in school and even if he wouldn't defend himself, his martial arts peers and their presence did help.  He did also gain confidence and learn self control and it was a good outlet for his frustrations.  It helped with his body awareness too.  There was something powerful about shouting with a group of males to signal beginning class and such.  He got a sense of belonging, and the teacher being male, really helped my kid as I feel boys don't get as many male role models as they may need.  He enjoyed making the teacher proud of him, actually, all the kids did.

My son was not even very good at it btw, maybe at bottom 20% of class.  I imagine a lot had to do with my sons instructor, he was amazing and could manage a full class of 35 7-10 yr olds and if one of them had poor stance, he spotted it and got the kid to correct it asap, all in a serious but good natured way.  The all loved being there.  Also, before belt progressions, parents had to sign off that the kid had good behavior at home in specific areas.  Living the tenants taught in class in your home and school life was expected.

My son is now 20, he is struggling with transitioning to adult issues and skills.  He always remembers back to that time as a very positive one of his life.  This week I encouraged him to look into taking up a martial art again.  I feel it would do good for his sense of self worth, discipline of getting to class on time, a positive peer group, and a sense of identity.

[Turkish]

We had the "intake" last week. After a few minutes, we put S6 out in the hall. I brought my tablet, so he was ok reading books. I don't download games for them.

Earlier, we were filling out the forms. My Ex and I were passing it back and forth, though she had me fill out most of it. She's fluent, but ESL, and she knows I speed read, kind of.

I had excused myseof to use the bathroom. When I came back she had filled out the portion listing those who lived with our son. She didn't list an occupation for me. For my age, she also listed 4. She knows my birthday, but she doesn't know how old I am? For her husband, she listed "self-employed" code for "unemployed," as she convinced her recently college graduated H to quit whatever job he had to focus on their "business," which is a mutli-level marketing deal (pyramid). He has a BA or BS, unlike us. When she told me that a month ago, I resisted saying, "you're gambling your family's financial future on a pyramid 'scheme.'" She also listed his age as 24.She's 34, and I'm 45. If I were the doc, I'd assume that she went from Daddy to Son. Based upon what she told me 2.5 years ago, I thought he was new 26. A lie, or she was dysregulating filling out the forms? I didn't ask.

She said she would fill out the family mental health history. She honestly filled out "depression" for her and something else I forgot. She went to the bathroom, I should have snapped a photo.

I ddnt fill anything in for me. Over $7k worth of private therapy very the past 2.5 years, I'm not diagnised with anything other than making poor choices. My T puts an ICD code on the receipts (most of the time I never asked for), so I can get reimbursed. Co-dependency isn't a Dx, but even if t were, my T said I am not. Based on talks with him, it leads me to believe that too many members here over-diagnose themselves as being co-dependent.

We have an appointment next week for S6. We'll see how it goes. There are some recent did things with him. He says he eats woodlice (Rolly Pollies) and ants. It took me a week to figure it out, mostly because I had trouble processing it, but I think he gets up n the middle of the night and pees in the waste baskets in the bathrooms. A kind of sleep walking thing?

He got up tonight, not long after they went to bed. I was on the back porch, and saw my master bath light go on. I checked after a while, and he peed in the toilet. He also went to sleep in my bed. For a year, I was more worried about D4 and co-sleeping, but she's still in their room. Last night he stayed in his room,.but more and more, he's been trying to sleep with me. Security?

[Turkish]

I talked to their mom for almost an hour today after a school function. The kids weren't there, it was for parents.

Grnandma caught S6 peeing in the waste basket at her home. My Ex asked our son, and he said he was tired. No excuse. I suggested making him clean it up next time. I'll do it if he does it again at my home.

She also told me a lot of things that I wouldn't volunteer if I were her, but I don't shame her, rather talking to her like a father older brother or friend.

There is a lot of conflict over there. She bit her tongue several times starting to complain about her H. My interpretation from what she told me is that he asserts boundaries, but immaturely. She possibly gets on his case about things more than she used to with me. The kids witness this 

She told me more about how our daughter tries to "rescue" her as she's about to blow a fuse. Being somewhat high functioning, she's aware of this, that the kds aren't responsible for her feelings. She apolgizes to them, however, "I want to hit you, but I won't," or, "I'm sorry got angry, but I'm trying really hard." Waif. I told her that it was better to be consistent, and that explaining her feelings to them might be undermining her authority...

She related an incident where S6 was really disrespectful to her at the dinner table. Step-dad raised his voice and chastised S6. Our son looked to his mom for a rescue, and she was struggling with being angry at her H for talking to our son like that, and accepting that H was right, since he rarely raises his voice. As the story was related, I don't have a problem with our son being chastised like that.

Given this, and H's past comments to me about how calm the kids are when I have them, I'm entertaining the notion of talking to both of them at once. Good triangulation or bad?

Being 18 (or 20?) Years younger than me, he doesn't threaten me in the least. He's in subtle ways reached out to me for advice, but I demurred.

Her family thinks that she should just hit the kids to control them and "teach them respect." Her younger sister hits her 3 year old. I sympathize with her having to deal with her FOO.  Support her in that respect because she and the kids need it.

[gary seven]

His mom called me late last night. She's concerned about our son, in that he once again dysregulated and told her that he just wants to die. This isn't the first time, but he hasn't said it in a while. Even my BPD mom, who lived with us from Dec-April, picked up on the fact that S6 had a lot of anger. I think this time it was due to some incident with kids being mean to him. Or that could be what he felt was safe to say to her.

1. Rejection sensitivity

2. Inappropriate anger

3. Mother with BPD traits (and diagnosed depression)

4. Child of divorce

At risk kid.

Anyone else have their kids say these things when triggered? He's never told me something like that, though I've experienced many tantrums. She's going to touch base with the school counselor (who strangely hasn't shared much with us, so we need to be proactive, apparently), and I'm going to get a child psych referral through our HMO.

Turkish--- this is all very sad to hear how the child is put in the middle, and demonstrates all those behaviors .  Mine got so crazed and convinced there was "something wrong with the child"--because I decided to separate--that she made a call to a mandated reported and he was put in a child's mental hospital for 10 days.  He is 9 .

I guess anyone is fair game to be manipulated--even your own kid.

Hang in there... G7