How do I get my husband to stop being so lazy?

[Cloudy Days]

For those of you who know me, My husband was released from his probation so he has been able to use marijuana. Now this was always his excuse of why he would do nothing around the house. He had aches and pains and whatever other excuse he used. I clean the house because I want the house clean, it's a pet peeve of mine. Anyways, I knew from the get go he was feeding me lines before, I knew that nothing was going to change once he got what he wanted. He literally does nothing but sleep all the time. He needs to mow our lawn, it's getting to the point where it's pure neglect of the lawn, it's the one thing I can't do, I probably could do it but I refuse. He won't take out the trash, I actually had to call him last week because I forgot to do it and he was angry at me for it and said I didn't to do it on purpose. For god's sake it was taking out the trash! My birthday was this week and not only did he not do anything for me, the one thing I asked for, he didn't do, which was mow the lawn so I could have a bonfire. Now I am getting promises that we will do something this weekend. He would never do the dishes for me at our other homes because he said he wasn't going to do them until he had a dishwasher. Now we have a dishwasher and he hasn't touched them, no brainer I knew he wouldn't. It's not that I expect him to be a full blown homemaker, I just want help with something... .anything. I've asked till I was blue in the face, he laughs it off basically. The only thing he does is wash his own clothes on occasion, because I don't wash them until everything else is clean, but he won't fold them or put them away. He doesn't throw away his trash, his hobby/man cave room is a hoarders dream, all he would have to do is organize the stuff and it wouldn't be so bad, he's asked me several times to help him clean his room and I refuse because he has all day to do that. I will take trash out of the room on occasion because it bothers me. But he seriously does nothing.

We are moving to another state, I don't expect any of this behavior to change once we move. But at least the yard won't be high maintenance like our yard now. This is the one thing that if he chipped in at least a little bit I would be happy with things. I am the only one working and the only one cooking and cleaning and doing everything else excluding the lawn, but right now the lawn isn't getting done. He will sleep all day on a nice day and then say I can't mow cause it is raining the next day. Has anyone been able to shift some responsibility to their spouse?  Everything I do, I do because it needs done, I'm not a clean freak or anything, as of right now my sink is full of dirty dishes, that won't be done until I do them. It's hard not to resent him for it, I keep asking for help and he keeps ignoring it.

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[flourdust]

You won't like my answer... .

My wife moved out two months ago to her own apartment. She has to shop for herself, cook her own meals, clean up after herself, take care of her own chores. Nobody will do them for her. She seems to have made some improvement as a result -- she's apparently cooking meals and doing her laundry, and she even did her own troubleshooting when her TV had problems (but not before blowing up at me because I couldn't magically fix her TV from two miles away).

I guess the bottom line is that she was only willing to improve when given no other choice.

[Cloudy Days]

While this is a problem it's not one I am willing to kick him out for. I know he is capable of doing everything that I am asking him to do. I know the only reason he does his own laundry is because I don't do it for him. There are a lot of things that I can't stop doing. I cook what I want, I clean how I want and when I want and I don't clean his stuff. Only when I have a half empty trash bag and I want to take the trash out do I go to his room and get a few things.

I know that if my husband were left to his own devices the place would be dirty and he would be ordering pizza every day, that's how he is.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Cloudy Days,

I read once of someone whose child refused to empty the trash, so she emptied it into his bed. That cured it. No idea whether that would work with your pwBPD but it made me laugh!

Lifewriter x

[flourdust]

Yes... .as I said, you wouldn't like my answer. He'll only change when circumstances give him no other choice. Unfortunately, you aren''t those circumstances, as long as he knows that you'll take care of everything when push comes to shove. And this is not a sign of weakness on your part -- why should you live in squalor to try to force him to be an adult?

So frustrating. 

Can I just add that since my wife moved out, I have thoroughly cleaned the place from top to bottom, and I keep it clean? It's incredibly soothing to me now to have a clean, controlled environment.

My final step was reclaiming the master bedroom, which had become her nest for the past several months since we were sleeping in separate rooms. I threw out lots of garbage. (Literally -- her nightstand drawer was like a museum for candy wrappers dating back at least two years.) I gathered all the clothes and junk strewn everywhere and moved it into one out of the way pile. I vacuumed and dusted and disinfected, and then I bought a new sheet & comforter set to make a fresh start with the bed. (I was seriously tempted to just throw out the mattress and get a new one.)

It really felt cleansing.

[Cloudy Days]

I read once of someone whose child refused to empty the trash, so she emptied it into his bed. That cured it. No idea whether that would work with your pwBPD but it made me laugh!

I think this would just cause a fight... .

I think what annoys me the most is that my husband has said in the past that I am such a bad cleaner that it made him never want to clean again. He claims he used to have OCD when it came to cleaning the house... .. When we first met he did clean a lot more and he would rearrange a lot. He does do some things for me, the manly things he's expected to do like fixing stuff, at least I get that much.

I actually watch the TV show hoarders and then I want to clean my entire house from top to bottom. I usually pick one room a week and really clean it. This way everything gets cleaned really good at least once a month except for his room of course. What's funny is he will clean if a stranger is suppose to come to our home, he will vacuum and make the bed and do all kinds of things. It's strange that judgment from another human being can get so much out of him.

[isilme]

This isn't much of an answer, but I have had and still sometimes have the same feelings and frustrations.  But, I realized that living alone, I'd still do the dishes, care for my cats and clean their box, fill their food and water, mop, sweep, take out the trash and mow the lawn, change and wash the linens, scrub the bathroom and kitchen, as well as my laundry.  There would be less trash and fewer dishes, and fewer towels to wash, but the cats would still poop, and trash would still go out, clothes would still get dirty, and grass would still grow.  I am not with FI to have a maid, and while help around the house we share would be welcome, I have honestly reached a point where I prefer to clean with him not home, so I can quickly do it.  When he DOES try to help, it's in such a disorganized manner it takes twice as long.

So overall, I have tried to make my peace with the fact that overall, I care more about the house and yard, and know if I want something done, I need to just plan to do it.

FI insists (for the most part) on at least washing his own clothes.  He may leave them in the washer or dryer, in which case I simply move it to the right machine to get out of my way, or literally dump it on his clean clothes pile.  I accept that some things will never get done unless I do them.  This is after 20 years together, some of which we both were in school, me working and him in school, me working and him just at home, me working and him working, and me working and him working and in school.  It's a lot easier to excuse someone not helping keep the space they live clean when they are working and going to school than when they are just home all day playing video games. 

I think in some ways, this is where radical acceptance comes in, and you either have to allow parts of the housekeeping to 'fail', like get a fine for not mowing the lawn (that got FI off his ass last summer, a threat of a fine), letting him be embarrassed when things aren't as clean as he wants, upset when he can't find a spoon, or the trash smells, OR, try to be happy that at least the house is as clean as you can make it in the time and energy you have, and let yourself feel good for the things you do instead of frustrated at those he won't.

It's not a game, it's just I will clean when I am good and ready, not for him, but for me and any guests we may have. 

[Cloudy Days]

isilme, I just don't want to accept that he won't ever do anything when he's perfectly capable of it. I'm not going to stop asking at least. We live in the country so no one is going to get fined, it bothers me though. I know it is a lot to mow, but the neighbors seem to handle their lawns, I've offered to help him clean up the yard, our dogs drag out limbs from places we didn't even know existed and have even taken a trash bag out and picked up stuff, it would look much worse if I hadn't done that.

I don't cook for him unless I am cooking for myself, he actually drinks his lunch and breakfast, Naked Juice most of the time. He literally will not feed himself if he has to cook, he will just go hungry and wait till I cook dinner that night, which to me is crazy.

[waverider]

i have the same issue and TBH you cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear, so the goal is how can i minimize how much of my time is wasted pointlessly stressing over something that is not going to happen.

I believe this is all a consequence of dysfunctional motivators. His motivations are probably need, impulse and immediate gratification. Responsibility and obligation probably dont even score a blip. This is not always obvious as they have been around long enough to mirror and parrot responsibility when required.

This will show in everything

eg

I need something, so I will unwrap it, throwing the wrappers away is a responsibility and obliigation, so it doesn't happen.

multiply this by every issue, and you can see its a core issue and making a drama over individual incidents is just barking at symptoms.

You can use boundaries/threats/cajoling, and yes for a while they may address that issue, but their motivation is still based n the NEED to stop you nagging, INSTANT GRATIFICATION for praise at doing it, IMPULSE to impress someone. It does not come from a core recognition that something needs doing and so they are motivated to find the time out of a sense of responsibility and obligation.

The former motivators are short term, fleeting and they need your involvement to gain the reward they seek. Hence once left to do it by themselves it peeters out.

Until they have a personality change this will not change much across the board. All the "armchair' expert opinions and criticisms they utter are from a NEED to cover up their failings. Arguing about it just ups the anti, and the less likely they are to step up and expose themselves to failing.

Just accepting this does feel like a cop out and enabling, but it is not really once you accept the realities. I do most of this, but I do it on my time and to my timetable, I dont accept criticism of it and in return I dont nag or criticise my wife too much about it. I also take payment by awarding myself large doses of "my interests time'. I use it as chance to consolidate my control over how I live my life.

I will not be the house servant, but I will take overall charge and be a one man band if she chooses to sit on the sidelines. Its certainly more efficient.

It is necessary to let go of down the center 50/50 fairness and concentrate on what makes you life easiest, fighting for 50/50 is like flogging a dead horse

[adventurer]

isilme, I just don't want to accept that he won't ever do anything when he's perfectly capable of it. I'm not going to stop asking at least.

It's hard to accept he may never change.  If you're unwilling to accept that - I hope you can find a way to keep asking him without getting frustrated in a way that is not emotionally damaging to you.

I don't cook for him unless I am cooking for myself, he actually drinks his lunch and breakfast, Naked Juice most of the time. He literally will not feed himself if he has to cook, he will just go hungry and wait till I cook dinner that night, which to me is crazy.

If things have gotten this bad it may require drastic measures to stop enabling him to do nothing.  You are already refusing to do his laundry and he is managing to do it somewhat.  I would suggest that you refuse to cook for him as well.  I know it's not much work to double the amount but it's maybe a way to force him to take more responsibility.

Is it possible to hire someone to mow the lawn and take the funds from the part of the household budget he is benefiting from the most?  Is it possible to hire a maid once or twice a week to help you out?  Maybe there is something like Cable TV that your husband is benefiting from far more than you that you can cancel to pay for this?

This is a completely unfair burden to you but you're going to have to find a way you can live with and manage it if you want to make this work.

[Cloudy Days]

Waverider, your explanation makes a lot of sense. He's not going to do something unless he gets something he is seeking out of it. So when I go out to the yard and pick things up, he will come out with me and get a reward of me seeing him doing something and he can then say, I helped you. He does tend to do more if I am doing it with him. He often asks me to help him with such and such and I'm thinking why can't you just do it when I am not here. Maybe I will try and get him to clean with me on certain things rather than asking him to use his time alone while I am at work.

Unfortunately we can't afford to hire anyone, it would cost a lot for someone to come out and mow the area we need mowed, we are working on moving so everything needs to go to our moving fund. We already talked about cutting off cable, I'm the one dragging my feet on that and my husband smokes cigarettes which I have tried and failed miserably at getting him to stop, or even cut down. He makes money from disability so I don't really have say over it.

As for the cooking thing, My husband most of the time won't even eat leftovers, he doesn't take the initiative to even look past the first thing in the fridge. If he can't see it when he opens the door then it's not worth his time to investigate it, that's why something like juice works, it's immediate gratification. Something like left over pizza he will just eat it cold without heating it up. I don't really care if he eats during the day because that's his choice not to eat. I just notice the lack of effort he puts into everything he does. The only reason I wouldn't stop cooking him dinner is because it's never been something I have asked of him. I would rather him do the dishes afterwards... .

[flourdust]

What are you getting out of this relationship? What is he contributing?

[Cloudy Days]

Just because he doesn't do chores doesn't mean he isn't pleasant to be around. I've had a lot of what do I get out of this relationship pros and cons lists over the years. He hasn't always been this bad on the housework. He used to do the laundry for me fully, when we moved for some reason he stopped. He used to mow on a regular basis at our old home (much smaller yard). I really think it is too much for him to handle, if he were to do it correctly he would be mowing about 3-4 acres. This won't be a problem in the future because we are moving to Arizona, they literally have rock as their yard, but I need him to keep the place up to sell it. The past two years have been sort of stressful on the both of us, I've had two close family members die on me, my father and grandmother and my husband was amazingly supportive. We moved to a new house and now we have to move again because I had to take a different job to keep my job, I've been a bit out of sorts and he has been supportive through the entire thing. He tells me he loves me every day, he says thank you for dinner and kisses me every night, he even apologizes when he knows he was wrong about something (not something people with BPD do very often). He contributes financially, he may buy his cigarettes but that's really the only thing he asks for that isn't necessity, he gives me the rest of his check. He takes care of our dogs, which is not much but there are 5 of them it can be a chore. He's not always bad on birthday gifts/Christmas gifts. I have noticed he's very adamant about buying gifts for people, when he was a child getting "things" rather than real love was how he was shown love. They would either shove food at him or give him a toy. So he's never really been good at gestures unless it was something that was bought. I told him specifically not to buy me anything but I made it clear I wanted him to make my day special and listed off some things that would make me happy. He bought me a lot on Christmas, I think too much really. So really its the fact that he has to do something rather than buy something that trips him up on my birthday this year.  

I've been married to him for 10 years, he used to be verbally and physically abusive, while he can say some stupid things, he's no longer abusive and we get along pretty well for the most part. He's worked on himself on a major scale with a therapist and is taking medication. He claims it's the medication that makes him not want to do anything, he's never been this unwilling to do housework before so it could be who knows. Anyways, I have a lot of reasons I stay with him. I may go home to a mess but he's always happy to see me when I get home. It didn't used to be this way and I am thankful for all the work he has done on himself.

[waverider]

Seems at least you are getting a handle on acceptance. s a result you dont lean hard on him as much, appreciate his qualities, as a result conflict is much reduced.

Still frustrations will arise, that can't helped as long as you keep the clarity to prevent them compounding into resentment you are on the right track.

Bottom line frustration for me is that a chore is never off my radar/responsibility. Even if my wife were to do it, next time around I would have to push to get it done again, or help do it. She simply can't be left to proactively having it covered. Which in turn makes her feel even less incapable, and down that rabbit hole we go

[Cloudy Days]

I've allowed him to make excuses while there was snow on the ground so he didn't have to do much to get by on my radar. I am starting to feel resentful because he's slipped so far into not doing things that I feel he is taking advantage of it. I have tried to talk to him about it and he uses distraction tactics to get me to stop talking to him about it. I asked him to rinse a plate off yesterday and he outright refused to do it because I asked him to. We aren't fighting about it, its more along the lines of I'm asking him to do something and he sees it as me ordering him around so he says no in defiance.

I'm going to try to get him to help me clean this weekend. At this point anything will be a victory. And I've never expected him to do something every single time, I've always just asked for his help. All I know is I am not giving up, something happened that made him slip into this pattern and I'm not going to let it be the norm.

I think what annoys me the most is that he said he wanted to live in the country so that he could go outside more often if he wanted to. Now that we live in the country, he never goes outside, it's really nice out too so it's not like he's avoiding hot or cold weather.

[isilme]

Bottom line frustration for me is that a chore is never off my radar/responsibility. Even if my wife were to do it, next time around I would have to push to get it done again, or help do it. She simply can't be left to proactively having it covered. Which in turn makes her feel even less incapable, and down that rabbit hole we go

^Yes.  I think of BPD as a kinda of disability, where emotional inability to manage time, to react appropriately to stimuli, and to self mange are impaired.  As the "non", I know I have to be able to step in for the things that FI will let fall by the wayside, if I absolutely feel they must be done. 

If he did not have the use of his legs, I'd not resent him not being able to change lightbulbs in the ceiling fan.  (In fact, changing lightbulbs is one thing I CAN get him to do since I am too short).  This is not an excuse to not ask for help, but it's a mitigating factor to try to tone down resentment.  Relationships can live with lots of things, good and bad, but resentment is one of the worst feelings to allow to fester. 

Which is why I posted how I've made some peace with the fact that if I have expectations for the house and yard, I must be willing to meeting them myself and if he helps, great, if he doesn't I no longer really care.

FI DOES try to help clean and do yard work sometimes, but, and not to call him a child, it's often like managing a child to get him to be effective, or to get him going at a point I can leave him alone and get back to my own tasks.  Take something simple like dusting.  If I do it, I clear off the surface, grab the polish, paper towels, dust, move on.  He will yell for me to bring him a paper towel.  Then, he can't find the polish, then he shuts down if a table still has items on it to put away before dusting.  So, instead of me working on one task and he on another to maximize time, I have to work slowly at his pace to keep him on track to get it done, or, make sure I've got some things he can do that won't get in my way, OR, best scenario, hope he will go run errands or be otherwise busy and I can just do it.

"I'm going to try to get him to help me clean this weekend. At this point anything will be a victory. And I've never expected him to do something every single time, I've always just asked for his help. All I know is I am not giving up, something happened that made him slip into this pattern and I'm not going to let it be the norm."

Maybe if you give him a single task to help you - like don't say, "help clean the kitchen", but, "please help put away the dishes in the dishwasher while I go do X".  Then he can feel good he helped, know exactly what to do, and you can thank him for the help. I know that sounds silly, but it seems to help if you acknowledge what IS done, with a sincere thank you.  Remember, in addition to a form of emotional inertia, there is a lack of adult ability to make themselves DO something that is not seen as absolutely necessary or pleasant.  I hate doing dishes but like having them clean and put away, so my brain can help make me do this.  I think a person with BPD is often instant gratification, not I'll feel better once this is done.

[Cloudy Days]

FI DOES try to help clean and do yard work sometimes, but, and not to call him a child, it's often like managing a child to get him to be effective, or to get him going at a point I can leave him alone and get back to my own tasks.  Take something simple like dusting.  If I do it, I clear off the surface, grab the polish, paper towels, dust, move on.  He will yell for me to bring him a paper towel.  Then, he can't find the polish, then he shuts down if a table still has items on it to put away before dusting.  So, instead of me working on one task and he on another to maximize time, I have to work slowly at his pace to keep him on track to get it done, or, make sure I've got some things he can do that won't get in my way, OR, best scenario, hope he will go run errands or be otherwise busy and I can just do it.

I laughed really hard at this part. WOW this is exactly what he does. I'll have to think about this when I delegate a task. A lot of the time I just ask him to do the laundry, he used to go grab it and he would make us both fold it at the same time. I didn't even have to ask him he would just do it. I don't know why he stopped. But when he does anything, he can't do it himself, this is why I prefer he does things himself when I am not there because anytime he does anything, he has to ask me to go get this or that or he is asking me for something and I have to go look for it because he's actually doing something and I don't want him to stop! He's very bad at multitasking.

[iluminati]

To answer the question in the title, well, you don't, that's how.

It's clear that he's lazy and wants you to do all the work.  It's happened with and without the weed.  Now, the ball is in your court.  What are you going to do about it?

[Cloudy Days]

Ok, I suppose I should have worded my title a little differently. It would be better to say how do I get my husband to help me with housework, knowing that he tends to be lazy.

He does this thing where he will stay up all night and sleep all day, eventually he will get back to a normal schedule but he often sabotages this as soon as he gets back to normal and stays up all night. He did that this weekend, so he slept for most of the time I was awake. Not really complaining about this as it gives me some at home me time (the best kind... .)

I was able to get him to rinse his plate off twice. So at least I figured something out.

[formflier]

he's asked me several times to help him clean his room and I refuse because he has all day to do that. 

I would help him do this.   Especially since you are moving.    Then, ask him to help you with simple things.  Or, ask him to "be available".

Does he come out and say no when you ask him things like this?

So, those that follow me on the boards know I have sleep issues, in addition to a wife that (like many BPDish people) doesn't respect the need for sleep.

Anyway, when my sleep gets messed up, I describe myself as lazy.  It's hard to do things, to think things through, so I try to dumb things down to things I know I can get done and have some good feeling about myself.

In times when my sleep is really good I am amazed and people comment about how much I can get done.

Has he had sleep studies done?  The sleep hygiene that he seems to have is terrible.

FF

[Cloudy Days]

Yes, I was thinking about helping him clean his room, he hasn't asked me for awhile, I don't want to jump on it and say, we are cleaning your room, come help me.

He usually does help me with simple things, some things I have to ask several times. Like feeding the cats, which obviously if he doesn't do it I eventually have to because they need to eat. But more simple things he might gripe about it but he will do it. It's always on his terms I have noticed. I know he will eventually mow, I just get impatient and I am a rather patient person.

I know that he has a hard time sleeping sometimes so I try not to wake him when he sleeps during the day. Being woken up is one of my pet peeves and it's one of his too. He would never do a sleep study, I've managed to get him to see some doctors but he is not unhappy with how his sleeping schedule is so he wouldn't do it with a new doctor. I've suggested it to him before. We both worked the graveyard shift when we first dated, he's been this way since I have known him, so I can't really complain. I do know that he has sleep apnea because I can hear it, he's also put on some weight in the past year. His sleeping is terrible, there isn't much I can do about it though. He often falls asleep on the couch at 5-6 in the morning.

[waverider]

my wife you to stay up all night deliberately. It turned out to be a kind of self punishment. A way of acting inwards when she was upset. a bit like a toddler who tries to stop breathing to prove a point.

Overall though unless you have medical reasons erratic sleep patterns are just a further extension of lack of structure. Lack of sleep then sabotages the rest of your life.

To avoid chores my wife says she will do it later, or after something else. The something else does not get done so neither does the promised chore. Or she pulls a sickie. Sometime she will pick a trivial chore that should take a couple of minutes and puts in on the to do list, thereby preventing being given something else. The "to do" list is always on pause. If I do it, then I get "I was just about to do that... you are disabling m">into victim mode.

i no longer allow her to put things on the to do list and drag stuff out. If she is serious about doing something later then there will always be something else that needs doing. Otherwise it causes a bottleneck waiting for her to get around to doing something trivial... Which frustrates me no end.

The principle is she can stuff around all she wants but i wont let it impede with me getting on with things. Thats just frustrating.

Trying to change this is like trying to shovel sand with a pitch fork

[iluminati]

Following along with this thread, I think there's an overarching reason for the lack of cleaning help.

In my experience, people with BPD have a lot of mental anguish, anxiety and fear going on.  Now you're probably thinking "gee, that's obvious!  That's why we're here, right?"  However, the other general concept with people with BPD is that they fear that if they reveal that they're in mental anguish, that's the same as waving a red flag in front of a bull, and more people are going to abuse and neglect them somehow.  People with BPD would rather fight over cleaning up or the dishes or anything else because it means that you aren't focused on how blatantly in pain they are, thus keeping them safe from any further harm.

Remember, BPD is a mental ILLNESS.  It isn't logical to us, because we don't have that illness, but it makes perfect sense to them from their experience.  They'll fight over any and everything to avoid their real issues being exposed.

Here is an example from my experience.  When I was married, my ex-wife and I would fight over cleaning the bedroom.  She would pile up trash, then I would just say screw it and clean.  She'd get upset that I threw something out (likely buried under piles of trash), so I'd leave it alone to start the cycle again.  Eventually, I just got my ex-wife some plastic storage bins for her "stuff", and I would leave them alone while cleaning.

As luck would have it, she moved out of our place before I did, leaving a massive amount of stuff to dispose of.  Among them were those plastic bins, which turned out to be full of trash.  She would rather hide trash in plastic bins then admit that she was too traumatized from life to function, which would be my cue to rape and beat her in her mind. 

[Cat Familiar]

I've been married to two BPD husbands. Their behavioral patterns about cleaning and tidying up have been very similar. When we were first getting to know me, they were neat, organized and kept their environments clean. Once we were a couple, their standards dropped immensely and soon I was picking up after them.

I could not get my first husband to stop tracking dirt into the house. It would have been as easy as wiping off the soles of his shoes on the door mat before entering, but he refused to do that.

My current husband has never touched the vacuum cleaner, dusted, cleaned bathrooms nor swept or mopped. He has his own man cave and I don't clean his territory and it's usually a dusty mess. He complains whenever he does any housework in there and then suffers from a sore back afterwards.

Seeing these patterns leads me to believe that they're fully capable, but that they'd rather be catered to and have someone else do the work for them. We can excuse their behavior over and over by saying they have a mental illness, but on the other hand, so many of us here do as well. Otherwise why on earth would we stay with abusive people who don't pull their fair share?

[Cloudy Days]

Seeing these patterns leads me to believe that they're fully capable, but that they'd rather be catered to and have someone else do the work for them. We can excuse their behavior over and over by saying they have a mental illness, but on the other hand, so many of us here do as well. Otherwise why on earth would we stay with abusive people who don't pull their fair share?

I agree with this, this is why I have a hard time letting it go. My husband is anal about so many things, when he cleans he cleans in a very specific way. He will dust his electronics and he will move stuff from one room to another, not actually finding the right spot for it just creating another mess in a different room. At our last home we had one room that was dedicated to "I don't know where this goes". So it was piled up and eventually I would go through it and put things away. Now we have our own hobby/fun rooms and if it belongs to me then it goes in my room and if it is his he throws it in his room, or I throw it in his room because he won't move it from the kitchen table. When I was asking him about cleaning his room I said, you realize I have way more stuff than you do, you just refuse to put any of your stuff away. One of the main reasons I wanted my own room so his stuff wouldn't spill over onto my stuff... .

He's supposedly going to mow today, keeping my fingers crossed. He has a very low frustration tolerance and the grass is high, I can see him running over something he would have seen had he not allowed the grass to get so tall. 

[waverider]

Seeing these patterns leads me to believe that they're fully capable, but that they'd rather be catered to and have someone else do the work for them. We can excuse their behavior over and over by saying they have a mental illness, but on the other hand, so many of us here do as well. Otherwise why on earth would we stay with abusive people who don't pull their fair share?

This is why i dont believe they are physically incapable of it, but rather it is flawed motivation. They are rarely motivated by responsibility and obligation... ie doing their part, or pulling their weight. if they NEED to do it, in the sense that they feel it has to be done, and no one else will do it, then they will  be motivated. The need has to be theirs, not yours. problem is what they feel needs doing may not match your expectations. eg he couldn't care less if carpet is vacuumed or not, so wont do it. Thats your need not his.

A pwBPD's needs are impulsive and inconsistent, hence so are their actions.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, the lack of attention to what the rest of us consider regular responsibilities can be somewhat astonishing. My husband will feel overwhelmed by the chaos in his man cave, but not be motivated to pick up and put things away or dust and vacuum until he starts sneezing.

One of my friends summed up this difficulty with repeated responsibilities of daily living by comparing it in a humorous way to toilet flushing. "If you have to do it again later in the day, why bother doing it now?" I don't think his young daughter got the point of his message, but it was a good metaphor.

[waverider]

One of my friends summed up this difficulty with repeated responsibilities of daily living by comparing it in a humorous way to toilet flushing. "If you have to do it again later in the day, why bother doing it now?" I don't think his young daughter got the point of his message, but it was a good metaphor.

Argh the toilet thing... .

"I NEED to go to the toilet"

"Its my RESPONSIBILITY to flush it"

... guess what... its not humorous its a reality.

Likewise:

"its my NEED to go outside for a cigarette'

"Its my RESPONSIBILITY to close the front door when I come in so its not left open all night"

Multiply by an infinite number of repeat similar examples. You can't address this with an infinite number of boundaries and consequences it's all too pervasive. Proactive motivation needs to come from within to correct this dysfunction

How do you instill appropriate self instigated motivators?

[isilme]

This is why i dont believe they are physically incapable of it, but rather it is flawed motivation. They are rarely motivated by responsibility and obligation... ie doing their part, or pulling their weight

This is why I reconcile myself to it being a disability, not from a physical incapability, but an emotional one.  Like I stated earlier, if FI did not have the use of his legs because of a physical issue, I'd be able to deal with being upset he did not do certain tasks.  He is in essence, emotionally handicapped, which means that things I see as adult responsibilities, he freaks out about as ways he can be blamed for things if he does them wrong.  Most of our arguments are about him trying to be sure he is not blamed for something.  If he doesn't do the dishes, ever, he can't be blamed if they are still dirty in the sink (not my job!), or if they are broken or had a small amount of food stuck to them when dry. 

Sure, some of it cold be an emotional feeling of entitlement to not feeling it's their job to do it, but also, you can't be blamed for doing it wrong if you don't do it at all.

[formflier]

Sure, some of it cold be an emotional feeling of entitlement to not feeling it's their job to do it, but also, you can't be blamed for doing it wrong if you don't do it at all.

So, how do we as nons, deal with this type of issue?

On the one hand we don't want to "enable" a disability, so they shouldn't get a free pass and be free of discomfort.

But on the other hand, we don't want to have our plans affected by someone that is most likely not going to do certain things.

FF

[waverider]

How do we prevent ourselves from getting exhausted trying to push boulders that have no motive power of their own once we stop pushing? How do we determine which boulders need to be moved, and how far?

Like anything else to do with BPD how do we step off the treadwheel going nowhere?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[flourdust]

Spot on, waverider.

When my wife completely gave up on housework and most forms of self-care, I eventually came to radical acceptance. I didn't try to make her change. I used to suggest cleaning days when we'd work together on getting the house cleaned. I gave up on that. I stopped waiting for her to do the laundry.

I did all the chores that I felt were essential. I let a lot of things just go. I was not happy about this state of affairs, but I recognized that it was beyond my power to change.

I did vent to friends occasionally. Once, I went around the house taking pictures of her various disaster areas. And commiserating on bpdfamily with others who were in the same boat was cathartic.

After my wife moved out, I cleaned the whole damn place, top to bottom. I left her bedroom alone for two months -- it was the worst mess in the house, her nest. I finally decided to reclaim the bedroom and cleaned it thoroughly, including buying brand new bedding to start fresh. That whole process was really therapeutic.

[Bpdsupporter]

Unfortunately nagging and complaining never really worked for me when my pwBPD would be what I thought was lazy. And I'd get home from work and the house is a pigsty... Trust I feel your frustration.

So I begin to see that there was something else going on not laziness but depression. Your husband sounds like hes dealing with depression. All the sleepling, unmotivated etc. Depression plays a big role in the lives of our pwBPD. Marijuana doesn't help I'm sure of it. Because even though its good short term it still has withdraw effects like anxiety and depression and when you have BPD that can feel 10times worse!

Do you think he might be depressed? If so do you think he would be open to taking some supplements that will help his moods?

My pwBPD takes Inositol (vitimin b8). He eats pumpkin seeds and figs and makes a shake in the morning with macca powder ( great for men... my dad uses it too and says it gives him more energy and he feels stronger). My pwBPD says these supplements have been extremly beneficial to him.Also St John's wort is fantastic as well. All these you can get at the health food store.

I'm saying this because it really sounds like his energy is low. Is he open to sobriety? Or getting drug treatment?

I will tell you

since my pwBPD has been sober and taking care of himself he has more energy, maybe it will help your husband feel more positive and more motivated to help you around the house.

[teapay]

I'd say spot on Flour,

At the end of the day, I think your solution, sadly, is really the only ultimate solution to this type of problem.  For you it is solved, even the nest, and it will be much easier to maintain.

I often find the only real solutions to problems that involve my wife are "hard" or "systematic" solutions which don't depend on her.  They happen regardless of her.  Other efforts only bring short term solutions at best.  Those quickly fade once immediate pressure is gone.  The result of these is constantly eating half measures and trying convincing to convince yourself and others you've acquired the taste of it.   Of course she often doesn't like this because it takes the ball out completely out of her court and actually inhetently enforces something on her which me geating much involved.  Those things she doesnt like she needs to learn to live with MI or not.  If she can't, then she probably can't be in a r/s with me nor probably any one else.  I like things to be in both our interests, but if I have to choose between her and my welfare I've become determined to choose me. 

[Cloudy Days]

I think the intent of my question was to figure out how to not give up my own emotional well being while trying to encourage my husband to be more helpful around the house, without starting an argument of course.

He did mow the lawn... .most of it. It took him 3 days to get done what he did, I pointed out to him that in the past he has done it all in one day. He didn't weed eat, he didn't cut in any of the bushes that he wanted so it looks awful. I'm just going to let it slide however I made sure he knows that it's not acceptable for when we show the house. This is what I am really worried about. I literally can't fix the outside myself, I need his help. He didn't even mow the area so I could have a bonfire. Still waiting on that Birthday gift that will never come. It was harder for him to do because he hadn't mowed once this year and it had rained quite a bit. So the grass was higher than usual and he also hadn't went and gotten his blades sharpened so it was more difficult for the mower. He digs his own grave on all of it, he waits until he absolutely has to do something before he does it and it's 10x harder to do because of it.

He's been rather moody lately I've noticed within the past week (complaining more not really angry). I can't really tell if he is depressed or not, he's never been a really happy person and he has always slept too much. He actually doesn't sleep a lot he just sleeps at weird times, which is not good for your energy. Bpdsupporter I appreciate your suggestions but in the past supplements have had bad effects on my husband. He's also taking medication, you aren't suppose to mix St. johns wart with psyche meds. I realize you are pushing a natural approach but natural doesn't always mean safe. Also the marijuana is something his doctor supports, he has more than BPD going on and to be honest he's not bad on it, he does more than he did without it and of course there are withdrawals symptoms, that's why you don't stop. There are withdrawal symptoms for coffee and psyche meds, some of them can actually be dangerous.

Also what my husband takes is not my choice. I can't force him to take vitamins or get sober, if he is depressed and wants to sleep all day I can't stop him. There are a lot of things that would help my husband, and all of them he would have to do for himself.

[formflier]

  I pointed out to him that in the past he has done it all in one day. 

Any idea why it took him three days this time?

Might want to consider thanking him for what he did and asking if you can help him with weedeating or the bushes.  Point out that you have 15 minutes "right now" as you hand him glass of water.  So, get a drink and lets go.

I would also point out to you that these are short term strategies.  You need the place to look good so you can sell it.

In your new place, think about the "structure" of when you will need him.  Think about structure of the house, as far as who does what in what room.  Give him a room and ignore it.

Figure out how to minimize his negative impact on the rest.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Cloudy Days,

I have the same issue with my husband lacking motivation about maintaining our home. I do everything except mow the lawns, haul the garbage to the dump monthly and take care of the pool, which are all duties my husband manages, more or less.

For those of you who live on rural property and have animals, you know there's a lot more to do than those three tasks. Even so, he feels "overwhelmed" by how hard he works--which in my calculations adds up to about 10 hours a month.

His studio is a freestanding structure separated from the house by concrete patios and walkways. I clean the house, all the exterior parts of the house, but no longer do the areas around his studio. He is responsible for the studio interior, which he occasionally cleans, but he does nothing outside. There are spider webs all over the exterior of his building--it looks like a witch's house, and leaves are piled up all over the adjacent patio and walkway.

In recent years, I've hired a gardener to help me once a week with the extensive landscaping, orchard and vegetable gardens. Occasionally he will blow the leaves from around my husband's studio.

I wonder if my husband is even aware of how awful his building must look to outsiders. He prides himself on being such a good photographer and he really does have an eye for detail when he occasionally takes photographs. I wonder if he even sees the chaos and disorder both inside and outside of his studio.

For me, my exterior reflects my interior. So if the house is a mess, by my definition--I'm very tidy, then I'm having some emotional issues. I wonder if that's the case with my husband.

[Cloudy Days]

Yes, I am looking forward to a yard that does not need any maintenance, 90% of the houses we have looked at didn't have grass  

I did thank him, I put heavy praise on him when he does anything because he doesn't do much. I know how I feel without appreciation so I figure slathering it on feels good to him maybe he would want to do it more often.

Usually when I get home from work I don't want to do anything, my time to help with the yard is always on the weekend, and the past couple weekends he ends up sleeping all day. This is my frustration, he says he hates his sleeping schedule but he chooses to sleep when he does. He went to bed at 6:30 last night and woke up at 10:30. I specifically asked him to try and stay awake so he could get his schedule back to normal. He always claims he is not going to sleep, he's just laying down. Every time he says it I tell him no you aren't, the moment your eyes close you will be sleeping.

He let it go too long is what took him longer to mow it, and like I said he also had dull blades. I told him to have them sharpened last year when it was cold outside so he could be ready, but nope. What's crazy is that he had no problems manually mowing the yard at our old house. I had to mow it a few times when he was gone for 4 months and it is not an easy task but he did it and he stayed on top of it. Our yard now requires a riding lawn mower, his mother was kind enough to buy him a super nice, 360 zero turn mower and now he won't mow. He dragged his feet last year, I just don't get it. Also I get annoyed that he has all day every day to do what ever he wants and what he wants is to do nothing. That would drive me insane! If I had the time he has that house would be spotless, mowed and have pretty flowers everywhere. I think that is where my anger is coming from. He has the luxury of time but he doesn't use it wisely.

I have a list of what I want for my new house, and it focuses on me being happy, which means low maintenance. Cat Familiar, I had a good laugh about the 10 hours of work thing, it's very true, the lawn takes longer but it's not like he's using his brain heavily to do it, and I am the one that has to take out the trash. He keeps asking for us to get a pool at our new home, I try really hard not to laugh. Like I'm going to be stuck taking care of a pool! No way in hell, he wants a pool with 5 dogs, I can really see his lack of logical thinking. I wish I had more money to hire someone, I would do it in a second.

[isilme]

Also what my husband takes is not my choice. I can't force him to take vitamins or get sober, if he is depressed and wants to sleep all day I can't stop him. There are a lot of things that would help my husband, and all of them he would have to do for himself.

This pretty much true for everything, including chores, sadly.

I have fought for years against FI's depression.  He hates anything prescribed, and takes St. Johns Wort time to time - it got him through a very bad patch 2 years back.  Exercise helps him, having regular social interaction with friends helps him, even if I have to insist - left to his own devices, he's sit at home and play video games and complain about being lonely.  So I try to set up dinners out with friends, taking part in game nights some friends have been instituting, going to the movies when anything good is playing, walks after work.  I am often exhausted by 5PM, as a sleep-maintenance insomniac myself - I often get about 4 hours asleep in 8 hours of time in bed.  BUt I have made it a rule that if I can get him up and out to do something, I will do it - it will help me with my insomnia and help him with his depression.

Here's what I see as a simple fact:  NO r/s is truly split evenly at all times.  Many people take turns being the supportive partner and the other as the leaning partner.  Sometimes, it's even - most times, one partner will be the more supportive of the two.  It's just how people are made. Ask ANY couple, separately, who does the most work, and very rarely will you get a consensus.  Housework is contentious in the most healthy of r/s.

BPD tips the scales even more, sadly.  As a person in an r/s with someone with BPD, if you choose to stay, you are accepting a greater amount of responsibility.  It is an illness.  Just because people can't see it, and the person with it might deny it does not change this.  There will be chronic issues day to day, like poor housekeeping, and acute issues, like a sudden rage.  BPD as I have seen it includes self loathing - which obviously is a component of depression, which in itself is debilitating.   

I love FI.  We have made progress since 2008 when I found this site.  I am working on me - it's taking a long time, and coming to terms, realistically, about what I need to be willing to do versus what I can expect from him has helped ME fight my own resentment.  He will never be in a place where I can totally let go.  He might be able to help keep MY head above water, at times, but I will need to be ready to kick and swim at any moment.  Look at radical acceptance.  Get a house that will have less yard and overall be easier for one person to maintain the mess of two.  Get your H on a better sleep schedule, somehow.  It will make a difference and will help.

[Cloudy Days]

I suppose I struggle with what should I radically accept and what should I try and make better. I have radically accepted a lot, when is it too much? I know that I can't change him, I can't make him want a clean house and I can't make him get on a regular sleep schedule. I can nudge him in certain ways but at the end of the day he's going to do what he wants to do. That's what I have been focused on for so long, focus on my actions not his. I feel like if I radically accept too much it is just giving him a free pass to do nothing and maybe my acceptance so far has led to his behavior now. I'm not asking for a lot and I am not asking for anything that he has never done before.

I guess it goes back to the feeling that I don't always feel like he has my back on things. Everything falls on my shoulders and that's hard to swallow. It feels heavy to me to carry around the work of two people. I don't ask for big things, he can't even walk out and feed the cats once a week, such a simple task. It reminds me of being in school and getting partnered with someone where you know you will have to do all of the work but they will still get the same grade as you.

[Cat Familiar]

That's the conundrum, Cloudy, how acceptance can turn into enabling. Sometimes I get a perverse sense of enjoyment when I just let consequences happen to my husband, as long as they're not too dire. I used to try and step in so that his things didn't get broken, misplaced, damaged or that bills got paid and phone calls returned. But now I just let nature take its course and if he's not responsible, then he loses a bit of money or has to replace an object.

But you know if they were living alone and we weren't there to do things, cook food, clean, pick up the slack, they'd either have to do it themselves or figure something out. I get tired of being the one who does almost everything.

[flourdust]

Radical acceptance means you just stop beating your head against a wall in the hope that the wall will move. It doesn't mean you accept it in the sense that you like it and are OK with it.

If you decide that nothing you can do will make your husband be less lazy, then you have radically accepted that this is the state of affairs. You are not holding out hope for change.

Your next step is to decide what you want to do about what you've accepted as true. You can live with it and work around it. You can kick him to the curb if you don't want to tolerate it. Or some third path. But you've let go of fantasy that this particular problem will go away, somehow.

[Cat Familiar]

Radical acceptance means you just stop beating your head against a wall in the hope that the wall will move. It doesn't mean you accept it in the sense that you like it and are OK with it.

If you decide that nothing you can do will make your husband be less lazy, then you have radically accepted that this is the state of affairs. You are not holding out hope for change.

Your next step is to decide what you want to do about what you've accepted as true. You can live with it and work around it. You can kick him to the curb if you don't want to tolerate it. Or some third path. But you've let go of fantasy that this particular problem will go away, somehow.

It's your second paragraph that is the fulcrum of hope for codependents. We believe that we are such good covert manipulators that one day we'll figure out the magic code that will have our loved ones behaving the way they ought to. When there's a will, there ought to be a way--but we just haven't discovered it yet. 

[formflier]

There is a hard question to look at.  What is RA and what is enabling.

If it is something that you do for them, that they won't do for themselves, I would take a hard look at that.

Accepting that they won't clean their space is accepting.

Cleaning up "common space" or "your space" after they have messed it up, with no efforts to help, is likely more enabling.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Cleaning up "common space" or "your space" after they have messed it up, with no efforts to help, is likely more enabling.

It's so much easier to do things myself rather than be the taskmaster or try to manipulate my husband to help clean up the common areas. And even if I succeed, there's hell to pay later.

He's so unused to doing actual physical labor that he remembers when he had to work hard on a project years later and regales people with anecdotes about how he and I spent two or three days staining and grouting the concrete floor in his studio. For me, it was just another day of work amongst countless others, but for him it was a traumatic experience that he remembers in detail a decade later.

I've worked hard physically all my life and it's no big deal to me as long as my rotator cuff isn't acting up, but for him, even vacuuming his studio is traumatic. 

[Cloudy Days]

My husband never cleans up the common space, he specifically chose the guest bathroom as his own so when people came over I am forced to clean it. Specifically his hairs from his beard all over the counter and sink. I don't want people seeing that, I refuse to clean it unless someone is coming over which isn't often. Other things like trash he will just set it on the counter. When I wake up or get home at night I literally just start grabbing things and throwing it away, this is something I have always struggled with him on he doesn't like touching the trash can.

I just asked him if he would quickly mow the area so we could try and have the bonfire tonight and got a whole array of texts and then said something about how he doesn't like to rush around for the sake of my mother. I told him from the get go that area was what I wanted mowed over everything else and it's the one thing he skipped mowing. It's like he's doing it on purpose almost.

I do feel like it is enabling but I always end up having to do it. I can only let things go so long before it starts to bother me. I suppose this is one of those things that will always be a battle. My Birthday and him not doing absolutely anything for it is what brought this on for me. I always felt that at least he does something for me on special days. Then he goes and pulls this crap, which shines a light on how little he actually does. If he can't make an effort one day a year, what can I really expect the rest of the year? I have gotten used to expecting nothing of him.

[waverider]

He has the luxury of time but he doesn't use it wisely.

I think of my wife as a "time sponge". She can soak up huge amounts of time and nothing seems to be achieved.

I am very wary of not allowing her to just soak up my time too. That just brings about a resentment that you have been 'robbed'. You can spend so much time fitting around them that your days get drained away and you feel like you have done nothing.

It is important to be aware and stick to your own schedule or you will get derailed.

In a way I am glad she sleeps in late, that way i can get something done, even if its just a walk, before the rest of the day is at risk of being absorbed ineffectively. Mornings are a good time for me to pursue my self interests without disturbance.

It is important to not end up doing anything by association, it is sometimes hard to motivate yourself when you are dragging an anchor.

[Cloudy Days]

I think of my wife as a "time sponge". She can soak up huge amounts of time and nothing seems to be achieved.

I am very wary of not allowing her to just soak up my time too. That just brings about a resentment that you have been 'robbed'. You can spend so much time fitting around them that your days get drained away and you feel like you have done nothing.

It is important to be aware and stick to your own schedule or you will get derailed.

In a way I am glad she sleeps in late, that way i can get something done, even if its just a walk, before the rest of the day is at risk of being absorbed ineffectively. Mornings are a good time for me to pursue my self interests without disturbance.

It is important to not end up doing anything by association, it is sometimes hard to motivate yourself when you are dragging an anchor.

You seem to hit the nail on the head here, this is exactly how it goes down and I always welcome the moments when he is sleeping because I either get a lot done, or I get a lot of relaxation time. When he is awake he has a way of making me focus on him.

[Cat Familiar]

I know what you mean, Cloudy. At this point of giving up that my husband will actually be motivated to do something, anything to help around the house, I sort of enjoy when he naps the afternoon away in his man cave and I don't have to be around him and his moodiness. It feels like a mini-vacation. That's really sad to say, but true.

[waverider]

There is a hard question to look at.  What is RA and what is enabling.

If it is something that you do for them, that they won't do for themselves, I would take a hard look at that.

Accepting that they won't clean their space is accepting.

Cleaning up "common space" or "your space" after they have messed it up, with no efforts to help, is likely more enabling.

Thoughts?

FF

This is where awareness and power of choice come in. Once you have a handle on actions and consequences and have let go of magical thinking that things are going to chance for unknown reasons, then you can choose either.

I do both. I enable when I know the consequences for me are not dire and to do otherwise is mores stress than I am prepared to take on. RA is more about accepting things when you cant change them even if you wanted to.

Before you get a full grasp on the process you dont have an educated choice to make, so everything feels like loose/loose. The consequences of your choices are then harder to live with.

[formflier]

 

WR,

Can I sum it up that you have gotten past feeling like there are things that you "have to" do and there are times when you "choose" to do things that your wife really should be doing?

I can see how that would lead to less, or no resentment.

FF

[waverider]

WR,

Can I sum it up that you have gotten past feeling like there are things that you "have to" do and there are times when you "choose" to do things that your wife really should be doing?

I can see how that would lead to less... or no resentment.

FF

Yes, my wife is very dysfunctional and to make a stand on everything means there is no chance of any kind of harmony in the relationship.  I also make very good use of the brownie points i collect in the process.

Never forget the end goal is to have a worthwhile relationship, not force it into some model of "normality'. Does dysfunction matter if no one is getting stressed or in conflict over it?

i get frustrated , yes... .but it doesn't compound into resentment, if that starts to happen I pack my kayak and fishing gear and go spend my brownie points to remind me why I did said 'favors"... .I take my "pound of flesh", nothing comes for free.

[formflier]

Never forget the end goal is to have a worthwhile relationship, not force it into some model of "normality'. Does dysfunction matter if no one is getting stressed or in conflict over it?

Huge point!

[lbjnltx]

Thanks to all who participated in this topic, please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.

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