Putting up boundaries with a Person who has BPD?

[Sky100]

Hello

OK , a reoccurring theme I hear on this site  is, " Put up good Boundaries with BPD person in your life. What? Is it just me (maybe I am crazy) but how in the world can you put up boundaries with a spouse who rejects all your feelings and who twists all your words around? I can not say anything to my spouse without him taking it wrong and becoming angry. How do you put up boundaries if you are not dealing with a Healthy person? How could you talk about your feelings or needs if the person is always defensive and angry? 

[AndrewS]

Couldn't agree more. My ex hurt me mostly by becoming more and more distant and detached, or rather a little bit of closeness and then a big pull away. If I asked for maybe 1 night in a fortnight where we could have time alone together she called me controlling or some equally stupid excuse. The boundary would be that I'm not prepared to be in a relationship where there is no closeness at all, so perhaps 1 night a week of together time would work. However, I can't enforce that without saying OK my boundary has been broken I'm leaving. Which is what eventually happened. It just took a massive amount of pain to get there and has left me basically debilitated.

[Sky100]

Hi AndrewS

That is exactly what my point is. I had 20 years of Therapists telling me to put up Good Boundaries. I have gotton sick from trying to put up Boundaries with a person who is emotionally sick. All I got from that is stress and Heartbreak. I am finally coming to the conclusion, like you, is that the only Boundary I could put up is to leave.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sky100, Boundaries protect you, but don't directly involve trying to change the other person.  They are a limit on what you will put up with.  For example, your boundary might be that verbal abuse is unacceptable.  If abuse starts, then you end the conversation.  If it continues, you leave the room.  If it continues more, you leave the house/apartment.  You get the idea.

LuckyJim

[umberto]

The way boundaries work is that you (as gently but firmly as possible) refuse to allow yourself to be treated in ways that are harmful to yourself. The BPD partner is likely to escalate to some degree and it will be difficult, but if you persist then they may begin to learn that they cannot treat you that way and get what they want.

If they refuse to accept that or continue escalating into extremely damaging behaviors, then your boundaries ultimately include the decision to remove yourself from the relationship because you refuse to be treated with abuse. It is unfortunate, but some partners may never be capable of treating you fairly, at which point it boils down to: will you allow yourself to be treated badly forever or will you leave.

Obviously it is very hard to do, but that is how it works. If they are incapable of treating you with respect, is it worth staying in a relationship with them?

[schwing]

OK , a reoccurring theme I hear on this site  is, " Put up good Boundaries with BPD person in your life. What? Is it just me (maybe I am crazy) but how in the world can you put up boundaries with a spouse who rejects all your feelings and who twists all your words around?

Well.  One possibly boundary is that if your spouse begins to "reject all your feelings," you just don't be a party to their distortion.  The minute they start to twist your feelings, you leave.  Go to some place where they are not.  This will teach your spouse that the minute they start to react badly to your expression of your feelings, you will not be a party to this behavior. 

Whether or not they learn to stop doing this is up to them.  But if you are consistent with your behavior, perhaps they will learn.

I can not say anything to my spouse without him taking it wrong and becoming angry. How do you put up boundaries if you are not dealing with a Healthy person? How could you talk about your feelings or needs if the person is always defensive and angry?   

You cannot control how your spouse will behave.  They *could* control it; but not if there is no motivation to do so.  You might decide that your spouse is incapable of hearing your feelings and needs without becoming defensive and angry.  In which case, you will need to decide what is best for you in this situation.

I had 20 years of Therapists telling me to put up Good Boundaries. I have gotton sick from trying to put up Boundaries with a person who is emotionally sick. All I got from that is stress and Heartbreak. I am finally coming to the conclusion, like you, is that the only Boundary I could put up is to leave.

Leaving is indeed the ultimate boundary.

Best wishes,  Schwing

[bruceli]

Couldn't agree more. My ex hurt me mostly by becoming more and more distant and detached, or rather a little bit of closeness and then a big pull away. If I asked for maybe 1 night in a fortnight where we could have time alone together she called me controlling or some equally stupid excuse. The boundary would be that I'm not prepared to be in a relationship where there is no closeness at all, so perhaps 1 night a week of together time would work. However, I can't enforce that without saying OK my boundary has been broken I'm leaving. Which is what eventually happened. It just took a massive amount of pain to get there and has left me basically debilitated.

So here, due to emotional abuse, you leave and find it elsewhere? How does that work?

[JQ]

Hello

OK , a reoccurring theme I hear on this site  is, " Put up good Boundaries with BPD person in your life. What? Is it just me (maybe I am crazy) but how in the world can you put up boundaries with a spouse who rejects all your feelings and who twists all your words around? I can not say anything to my spouse without him taking it wrong and becoming angry. How do you put up boundaries if you are not dealing with a Healthy person? How could you talk about your feelings or needs if the person is always defensive and angry? 

Hi Sky    Group,

I see your fairly new here with 7 post, so I would suggest that you read some of the resources at the top & to the right on many subjects including the boundary question that you ask. But to answer you question ... .it's a great question. One that I learned and try to hone until my exBPDgf decided the boundaries I tried to put in were outside her ability to maintain them. Let me explain.

I read about boundaries here, had more then a couple of discussion with my T on the subject and her T as well. This is how it went. So I like many here were being verbally, emotionally & physically abused by my exBPDgf.  I started with something small, baby steps I was told, she needs to learn that you will NOT tolerate her bad behavior as others have in the past.

SO, one night when she started to demean, degrade & disrespect me by the things she was saying, I simply in a very calm voice told her that I was hurt and offended by her language & her emotional abuse she was causing me. I said I'm going to hang up for now and calm down, when I'm no longer angry or upset with you I WILL call you back, but I need to process my emotions and how you hurt me. I want you to think about it too.

Her voice, and emotions changed, she calmed down, it's as if she realized what she had said. "ONE of the MOMENTS of clarity I experienced".  I said, I need to calm down I will call you back in a little bit. She said she was sorry for saying the things she did to hurt me and understood. I told her, "i'll talk to you in a little bit." I hung up. Again she texted, "I"m sorry".   As promised I calmed down for about 30-45 minutes & I called her back. WE talked and discussed what had happen in a calmer mood.  This was a boundary I had set and tried to maintain.  It didn't happen over night and had to be reenforced several times, but I thought I was seeing progress in her behavior improvement.

Then other boundaries were put in place, each time increasing in what I found offensive or unacceptable. Again they were a work in progress, with her testing every, EVERY boundary much like a 3 yr toddler test their parent. It was mentally and physically exhausting, but this was the way to improve things in our relationship ... .or so I was told.

Finally the boundary I set, was her seeing other bf's, I was not going to be ANY part of a sex triangle or any other triangle for that matter. I had discussed this with my therapist, her therapist and read boundaries again and again here.  Then came the moment for me to set this boundary.  Well, as you can imagine, it didn't go over well. Discussions were had, heated, calmly, more then once.  I told her of the health risk involved among other issues. She told me more then once how she was starting to understand what I was saying. I thought I was making progress, until.  I knew I was still part of at least 1 triangle when the subject was approached.  I told her this WAS a hard boundary for me, there was no negotiation on this for so many reasons including how much I loved her. I even asked her, "is it ok for me to have a date much less spend the night with another woman?" She expressed her NO in no way was this going to happen to her, she wouldn't allow it?

I asked her why? She explained her answer. I said then why is it any different if the roles are reversed?  She thought about it for a moment, head down. Then looked up at me with mixed emotions I must admit. I saw fear, I saw anger, I saw clarity in her eyes as she told me, "I can't stand here and promise you I won't cheat on you".  A VERY rare moment of truth & clarity that I'm sure all of us in the group would like from our BPD. I was felt very fortunate, but at the same time I felt that this WAS  boundary for me that was NOT to be gamed by her.

I simply told her, "Thank you for being honest and telling me that. I know it had to be hard to do it.  I love you, you know this." She acknowledge with a yes. "You know I would and have done everything I can for you, for us". She responded, "You have done everything I've asked you to do, but I can't not promise you I won't cheat on you".  I looked into her eyes and told her, this is a boundary I can NOT and will NOT bend on.  Until you can look into my eyes and tell me that you want to be faithful to me, then we have nothing further to discuss. This is the most important boundary "her name" that I need you to understand. If the roles were reversed, what would you do if you were in my shoes.  I told her I should go and with that I hugged her, told her I loved her, I wish, hope and pray that you can make your way back to me, but the choice to do so is within you."

Not long after that, she called, wanted to have a "sexy phone call". I asked her if she was still seeing bf#2?  She told me yes, another moment of honesty I wasn't expecting.  I told her, "This conversation is something that you should be having with your bf, and not me."  She became very upset, "BUT I CALLED YOU!  I DIDN'T CALL ANYONE ELSE".  Yes, but you are seeing someone, you have a bf, I told you this was a boundary that I wasn't going to cross. I love you, but I'm hurt that you are still with another, I can't do this. If things change, let me know, call me,"

Shortly after that I went NC. I knew from my T, my education, my reading, everything I learned about BPD she wasn't going to change. I learned that BPD is a VERY Serious Cluster B Mental Illness with severe & life long issues.  She had been seeing multiple mental health professionals much more educated then me for 25 plus years with no affect on her behavior. Things were NEVER going to change, it was time for me to take my first baby step forward in my healing process. And soon I wasn't taking baby steps but I was at a full run. And soon you will be too.

That is part of my story, not much different then anyone else here in the group. It seems as if our stories are so similar that our BPD s/o read from the same book. It's so strange how similar they are.

SO to your question, do boundaries work?  I would say to some degree, as long as the BPD is willing to maintain them. IF THEY CAN MAINTAIN THEM!   I have learned that the BEST anyone can hope for in behavior modification and mood stabilizing drugs with their BPD is some level of behavior modification. THERE IS NO CURE!  To what degree of behavior modification YOU are willing to accept in order to maintain your BPD r/s is and always has been up to you.

J

[Wonderland]

I will be following this as I have the same problem . my bf isn't diagnosed and I'm too frightened to bring it up. If I say I think he should go Dr because I'm concerned bit if will absolutely turn into an argument because I'm bagging,or picking on him, or blaming him and making myself out to be a victim x

[Sky100]

Thank you  for your insightful advice on this topic. I was able to see by all your answers how I approached Boundaries all wrong! For 20 years I was waiting for my Spouse to validate and honor my Boundaries.

I am now getting ready to begin the Divorce process. Very scary for me though! I am really afraid because Divorce is the ultimate trigger for him. My fear of his reaction has kept me here for so many years.

Now is the time for me to really understand and apply boundaries. I really appreciate all of you who have taken the time to really explain the definition of true Boundaries. I am going to try all your ideas. Thank You!

[Beligerent]

This is my first post and this post grabbed my attention and made me register. I have a major problem in this area. My Borderline Girlfriend has never once respected my boundaries and just this morning once again showed how insensitive she is. Just the other day I bought a new laptop. My girlfriend texted me at work this morning asking me for the password because he 12 year old niece stopped by and wants to install a game. I replied saying I dont want her neice and nephew playing with my new laptop and that there are 3 iPads and an XBox in the house she can use that. Her reply was that my excuses for not giving her the password were lame and she is suspicious now that I might be hiding something... .and I'm a jerk for not letting the kid be a kid... .I was shocked (not really) Like I just cant say "No" and that be it.

I agree with the original poster... .Any boundaries I have made were broken within days , weeks, sometimes hours. The problem with having boundaries is having to enforce them. having to say "Ok you crossed the line Im MOVING OUT... .Then u need to find a place and shift your entire life into upheaval cause someone cant be an adult and respect boundaries.

Norm

[Sky100]

Hello JQ

I took your advice and read some of the articles here about Boundaries. After reading a bit it was obvious to me that I do have a skewed view of the definition of Boundaries.

I see how waiting for another to agree with a Boundary is not Healthy. I almost feel that I can not continue with the Boundary if the other person does not agree with it. I know , this is unhealthy thinking and an area I need to really work on.

Thank you for suggesting I look at some of the resources here. They are very good!  

[teapay]

Hey, N.  :)id you give her your password?  If not you did great!  If you did, then you would have violated your own boundary.  What did you do when she started the

BS?  What is your boundary for that kind of stuff?

Yes, the ultimate boundary is ending the r/s.  That can be quite a burden and difficult  depending on how entwined the lives have become.  For some it feels so insurmountable they can't bring themselves to do it and stay despite abuse and all kinds if craziness.  They cant make that a boundary.  At the same time, moving on that boundary can in some cases give you some leverage against the BPD's fears of abanonment and make it easier to hold less drastic boundaries.  I mean, if you are willing to leave, what do you got to lose?  Also, nons make it tough on themselves by caving.  If the BPD sees that their partner got no guts and will ultimately fold in the face of pressure they will just push and push until they get want they want.  Every toddler knows how to do that.  That is just where the BPD wants them.

[Sky100]

Hi Norm

So glad that you found my post and that you are able to relate to my story. Yess, I do have a problem with holding up my Boundary. I am great with making them but not with enforcing them. Unfortunately I think if our Boundaries are generally not respected, the ultimate Boundry is to leave.

With my BPDh , my boundaries are rarely respected. Is it often that you feel your gf breaks your boundaries? How did you handle the laptop situation? Did you give her your password or did you stick with your Boundary?

You might want to look at the resources they have here ( under tool bar). I found great articles on boundaries.

Sky

[JQ]

Hello JQ

I took your advice and read some of the articles here about Boundaries. After reading a bit it was obvious to me that I do have a skewed view of the definition of Boundaries.

I see how waiting for another to agree with a Boundary is not Healthy. I almost feel that I can not continue with the Boundary if the other person does not agree with it. I know , this is unhealthy thinking and an area I need to really work on.

Thank you for suggesting I look at some of the resources here. They are very good!  

Sky,

I'm glad to hear that you found some guidance with the resources here. Remember, the Boundary's are about YOU!  In my search for why I was attracted to BPD & everything that comes with it I had to do a deep dive on myself, where I came from AND the house that I grew up in. I learned that my step mother & now step sister are both BPD and growing up in the house I learned that I had become a NON or a codependent or as my T said, I was the Caregiver.  My BPD step mother never respected my boundaries which means even to this day she does not respect my boundaries.

SO I had to learn to set my boundary's with her at the same time I was learning to set boundaries with my now exBPDgf in addition to setting boundaries with my BPD step sister.  The latter was the quickest to deal with. She refused to respect me, my space or my boundaries so I went completely NC with her. With my now exBPDgf, setting any boundaries as I said was physically & emotionally & mentally draining. When she refused to respect the boundary of other bfs, I went NC. Now my BPD step mother is in her 70's, ill health but I still maintain my boundaries with her. I can tell her no to her evasive questioning. I can tell her no to pretty much anything. And as it's been said, "Not my circus, Not my monkey's".

I have found that I have a lot less stress in my life without any of them testing or breaking my personal boundaries. As the song says, "Sometimes good-bye is a second chance.".   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbsDPbr8qoM

Learning to say no to the people you loved the most is certainly not easy to do ... .but completely necessary in order to LIVE MY LIFE and not be a part of their BPD circus. 

Start with something small ... .learn it's ok to say no when someone disrespects you & crosses a boundary. Then move onward to the more challenging things. You didn't learn to walk over night, setting boundaries AND maintaining YOUR boundary's will take some work as well. BUT you can do it like me and others have!

J

[Sky100]

Hi J

I am starting to really understand that Boundaries are more about me and not others.It seems like you did your work and you are doing well.    I know that it is not easy to learn new behaviors.

Like you I also grew up with a family who were not good with honering Boundaries. I see how our past really influences our relationship today. You are right , it is not easy to say " NO" to the people we care about. I guess it is not an easy thing for me to understand that people we Love are not always looking out for our best interest.   It is sad but a part of life we must accept. Love the song you posted. Never heard it before but a perfect song for this situation .

Sky

[JQ]

Hello Sky 

I've played the song over and over again as it really hit me square in the face. Learning your boundaries is important for you ... .I don't know if a BPD can really learn or even understand what the boundary really is or means to us. They just experience the negative consequences if they go outside the boundary and is that REALLY learning for them. I saw this posted by a senior member in another thread, but thought I would share it with you. To me it makes CRYSTAL CLEAR SENSE of what BPD is and what BPD is NOT!  

The various therapies for BPD are very good handbooks for recovery, unfortunately pwBPD seem to suffer a kind of dyslexia when it comes to reading them. Hence the increased difficulty in making progress. To some the stress is too great.

It takes strength of willpower and a belief that it is possible, for them to make progress.  The other hurdle is that for most it is not "recovery" as there was no former healthy state , you are asking them to evolve into something they have no experience of. It becomes like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, they have never seen it and hence struggle to believe in it, or that it even has sufficient value for the effort. It makes it difficult for them to leave their 'comfort " zone.

pwBPD often need immediate gratification and tangible goals to aim for. Long term goals are an abstract.

I believe we need to start explaining things in the manner. There is NO recovery because there was NO normal state of mind since birth. BPD has stunted the growth of the brain both physically, emotionally and developmentally. It has rendered the person unable to, or at the very least extremely difficult to manage said behavior when they've never known what normal is. This goes back to my other statements, that they are broken, and all the Kings men and all the kings horses ... .

I just think straight up honest answers without the B.S. of being politically correct would help the NON make better sound judgement decisions based on facts, medical studies, instead of group hugs, and "hopeful" answers to a mental illness that has affected them since they were born. In that way, the NON would not hold out hope for 3 months, 3 yrs or 30 yrs.

Sorry group ... .I'm frustrated with the entire mental illness of BPD and would like so much for her & all of your BPD's to heal, but I know it is never going to happen. Why do we need to prolong the process of our healing from it ... .

J

[Sky100]

[quote author=JQ

I just think straight up honest answers without the B.S. of being politically correct would help the NON make better sound judgement decisions based on facts, medical studies, instead of group hugs, and "hopeful" answers to a mental illness that has affected them since they were born. In that way, the NON would not hold out hope for 3 months, 3 yrs or 30 yrs. [/quote]
Well said! I so agree with you. For 20 years I always had the hope that he might change. I understood he was broken but I thought if I was unserstanding and let him get his way most of the time, he would get better. Ha... .now I see that I was living in Fantasy Land!

Believe me... .I feel for these people because they suffer a lot but if I would have understood that it is almost impossible for them to change , I would have left many years ago.

J, Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[Answers]

I agree completely that the nature of the illness makes it very unlikely that many BPD patients will overcome their disease. For almost any mental health therapy to work the patient must strong enough to take an objective look at themselves and by definition that sense of self often does not exist in BPDs.

That said I would like to clarify something from a purely scientific perspective. Brain scans that show different activity in BPD patients from normals do not mean that the BPD patients brain has developed incorrectly from a physical level. In other words it is not deformed or incomplete. What they show is that that their neuro-pathways are firing differently. The brain develops a preference for the pathways we use the most and tends to default to these increasingly over time. There is substantial evidence that sustained changes in behaviors do indeed cause the brain to reroute over different pathways though. This is completely different than if an injury has occurred.

[JQ]

I agree completely that the nature of the illness makes it very unlikely that many BPD patients will overcome their disease. For almost any mental health therapy to work the patient must strong enough to take an objective look at themselves and by definition that sense of self often does not exist in BPDs.

That said I would like to clarify something from a purely scientific perspective. Brain scans that show different activity in BPD patients from normals do not mean that the BPD patients brain has developed incorrectly from a physical level. In other words it is not deformed or incomplete. What they show is that that their neuro-pathways are firing differently. The brain develops a preference for the pathways we use the most and tends to default to these increasingly over time. There is substantial evidence that sustained changes in behaviors do indeed cause the brain to reroute over different pathways though. This is completely different than if an injury has occurred.

Answers,

Here's a link & excerpt to some information in regards to MRI study that would indicate from several studies that BPD is genetic with a physical abnormality to include the prefrontal cortex. In addition to  ... .

The G.E interaction model appears to be consistent with the theory that ex­pression of plasticity genes is modified by childhood experiences and environ­ment, such as physical or sexual abuse. Some studies have found evidence of hypermethylation in BPD, which can ex­ert epigenetic effects. Childhood abuse might, therefore, disrupt certain neuro­plasticity genes, culminating in morpho­logical, neurochemical, metabolic, and white-matter aberrations—leading to pathological behavioral patterns identi­fied as BPD

Magnetic resonance imaging. MRI studies have revealed the following abnormalities in BPD:

   • hypoplasia of the hippocampus, caudate, and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex

   • variations in the CA1 region of the hippocampus and subiculum

   • smaller-than-normal orbitofrontal cortex (by 24%, compared with healthy controls) and the mid-temporal and left cingulate gyrii (by 26%)

   • larger-than-normal volume of the right inferior parietal cortex and the right parahippocampal gyrus

   • loss of gray matter in the frontal, temporal, and parietal cortices

   • an enlarged third cerebral ventricle

   • in women, reduced size of the me­dial temporal lobe and amygdala

   • in men, a decreased concentra­tion of gray matter in the anterior cingulate

   • reversal of normal right-greater-than-left asymmetry of the orbitofron­tal cortex gray matter, reflecting loss of gray matter on the right side

   • a lower concentration of gray mat­ter in the rostral/subgenual anterior cin­gulate cortex

   • a  smaller frontal lobe.

In an analysis of MRI studies,2 cor­relation was found between structural brain abnormalities and specific symp­toms of BPD, such as impulsivity, sui­cidality, and aggression. These findings might someday guide personalized in­terventions—for example, using neuro­stimulation techniques such as repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation and deep brain stimulation—to modulate the activity of a given region of the brain (depending on which symptom is most prominent or disabling).

Genetic Studies

There is substantial scientific evidence that BPD is highly heritable—a finding that suggests that brain abnormalities of this disorder are a consequence of genes involved in brain development (similar to what is known about schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and autism).

www.currentpsychiatry.com/home/article/borderline-personality-disorder-is-a-heritable-brain-disease/3bc96d9e33065b76fd114fcd15566bde.html

A lot has been studied in the way of BPD ... .but I would agree with everyone in the group, that more resources have to be devoted not only to BPD mental illness, but other mental illness as well.

J

[AndrewS]

JQ, that is fabulous information in terms of our understanding, thank you very much.

I have one question for you and all here. I'm starting to feel like I can move on and although my heart was broken, my ex is who she is and I simply can't help. Even if I could, I don't know if I could live a life of care giving and emotional gymnastics. Clearly I still care or I wouldn't be jealous of my replacement :-)

However, when we met she had a 3yo daughter whom I raised as my own. She is now 9. We became extremely close and she confided in me and always came to me to talk if she was upset. Considering that there is a possibility of predisposition to this disorder and that her mother is now acting in a very attention seeking manner, along with the fact that I never saw here really engage with her daughter, what can I do to contribute to her daughter's well being and minimise the chance of this being passed on? I have no access to her but she texts me. I do have access to her grandparents who may understand. I am scared for her. I know it's a big ask but any suggestions, even tiny ones would be appreciated.

[Answers]

JQ,

Thanks for the reply. I have come across a number of the posts you have placed and have a great deal of respect for the positive thinking and support you have provided so many of the members on here. I also respect your desire to what science can teach us about this disease.

The linked for the article that you quoted in your response went dead (it will not allow me to access it without a login and password) for me after I only had a chance to briefly review it. I would add that my background does include experience in the filed of molecular diagnostics and specifically genomics so it is material I am very comfortable with. The truth is that many of the of the statements that offered in the piece may indeed proved to be true at some point. Without getting into a detailed scientific debate there are a few areas of concern that do come up (not offered in a particular order):

- This is an editorial piece and is not a peer reviewed publication. In and of itself it is not the unbiased presentation of information gleamed from a rigorous scientific method but by definition an opinion of one professional in the field. Additionally, the reference sited the most of the 5 the author offers is also a summation piece and not a specific study. So this piece is summation opinion of a summation piece. The author also appears to have been very selective in what he chose for inclusion in this list.

- Heredity is a tough issue with BPD. It has been shown definitively that BPD does occur with greater frequency in the presence of other family members. Since the development of BPD is almost always a result of the behaviors of these family members it is has not been determined if it is brought on by the behavior or heredity. Increasingly we are seeing that most diseases are a result of both. A persons physical makeup leaves them predisposed to a certain illness. But that alone will not cause illness, it is when they are subjected to certain environments.

In the end this whole discussion serves to reinforce one of the greatest challenges sited with BPD and coincidentally supports my point;  the research and scientific understanding of BPD is woefully insufficient!

Regardless of if science ultimately determines that there are indeed structural abnormalities in the brains of people with BPD the most important points for pwBPD to keep in mind are:

- People with BPD have a VERY serious illness, that presents significant challenges to so much as manage, much less treat.

- BPD is much greater than uncontrolled emotions and involves the actually manner in which the brain processing things.

[Sky100]

Hello JQ

Thank you for sharing the article and also for sharing all of your experience with BPD. I found the article to be quite informative .

I have spent many years learning about BPD and I am learning to stop spending so much time on trying to find out the cause. I am tired of learning about something that my BPDH takes no control over.

I think it is important for us to have an understanding about this disorder but we need to be careful not to get obsessed with it. The truth is no matter how much we learn, we can't cure them.

I truly believe that people with BPD could live an emotionally Healthier life if they took a little responsibility for there actions. They hurt people and at some level they have to know it.

I have read so many posts in this site and really it makes sad to see how much they hurt people. My question to everyone is... .Why do we spend so much time learning about an illness we can not change. Why aren't they spending there time on a Great site like this trying to help themselves?

[JQ]

Sky,

I think for at least me, spending time researching & learning about the cause & effect aspect of this mental illness helps me understand something better that I or anyone else has very little control over. Perhaps the reason why so many NON's, aka Care Givers aka Codependents spend a lot of time here is to learn, to grieve, to try & have a better understand themselves.  NON's at our core are the eternal fixer, the perfectionist, the glass is 1/2 full kind of people. If we can find something positive in this horrific mental illness then perhaps for some it's a step closer to perfecting the relationship and avoid conflict, avoid the chaos.

Perhaps for some it is to help assist and educate other NON's in the details of understanding some things are beyond their control to make it better. To help them get to a better place for them to move forward on their journey.

From my own experience I can finally put the pieces of the puzzle together and understand the bigger picture vise the cropped version others might see. I NOW understand how the disease can be genetic & passed down from generation to generation from first hand experience. My 1st exBPDgf's father had told me, that her mother had spent a couple of months in a mental health facility at a local hospital. That the doctors told him it was possible to pass down from mother to child and that I should be made aware of it if I was going to want to spend a lifetime with his daughter.  I had tremendous respect for him telling me the truth of his pain he had endured for nearly 35 yrs.  This turned out to be true in not only her situation, but my BPD stepmother passed it down to my BPD step sister and her down to my niece. My step mothers brother also had BPD symptoms and only recently have I put things together. He was married no less then 5 times, very promiscuous, was separated from the Air Force after 15 yrs for Behavioral issues and was always in financial trouble due to his impulse spending habits, much like my step mother and now step sister.

My recent experience with my 2nd exBPDgf has been an enlightening & heartbreaking without question. I believe she came into my life for a period of time to educate me and FINALLY open my eyes to the world of BPD.  Her mother also has BPD systems and her father died a mentally & physically exhausted broken man trying to provide as best as he could for her and their children.

The pieces of the puzzle were there all the time, but I was missing the key piece to put it all together until this moment in time. For some, they don't want to finish the puzzle because it means the loss of a dream, the loss of a loved one, the loss of everything they grew up wanting ... .needing. Maybe they are on this sight perpetually searching for answers they know that might not ever come but can't and won't put the puzzle together.

There are as many reasons why people stay learning about this illness as there are stars in the night sky ... .none of them are wrong.

In the end, WE are all responsible for our own recovery, WE are responsible to be proactive in our healing, our own journey of self discovery.  As the video said, "even the most confident & motivated people will need a helping hand at some point in their life".       Perhaps that's why I continue to post here ... .to hold out a helping hand in the manner that I do ... .and at times ... .I am the one that needs to be pulled up ... .but those times are becoming less and less as time passes.  Everything gets better in time ... .NOT perfect ... .but it does get better ... . 

J

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Andrew S., There's no easy answer to your question, which is one I wrestle with daily.  My BPDxW has brainwashed our children to believe that I am a terrible person, with the result that they are quite hostile towards me.  I am in email contact with one son, but not the other.  It's heartbreaking for me.  In my view, what you can do is be there for your step-daughter, as much as possible, even if it is only through text messages.  I often remind my boys that the door is always open and that I'm there for them anytime.  I firmly believe that the tide will turn at some point, as it always does, but am uncertain about the time horizon, which is hard.

LuckyJim

[AndrewS]

Thanks Lucky Jim,

I feel for you mate! I also understand and agree with what you said. Thank you. I never knew that messaging with strangers could be so comforting. I think we just need to be understood and unless you have been in the thick of it you just can't.

Meanwhile, I have started reading "The Journey from Abandonment To Healing" and so far it seems great. It aligns with what my therapist is saying about taking the lessons from the relationship and using them to grow, move forward and be truly happy in yourself. The therapist is one who uses ACT - Acceptance Commitment Therapy - and it seems to resonate with me. There's plenty of reading online if you want to look.

Anyway, take care and good luck mate.

Andrew

[formflier]

 

There has been some huge good work done in this thread to explain boundaries and I sense that some of the low time posters are soaking it up.

I sometimes find that I "think" about some of these topics just a bit off what many others do, or perhaps better said the way I go "about thinking" of boundaries has a bit of my own brand on it.  I hope it will help some,

If you asked me about the #1 tool in dealing with a pwBPD I would say boundaries.  With the important nuance of saying "healthy" or "correct" boundaries.  To help determine if "your boundary" is healthy I would recommend starting a topic to discuss in detail.  We can help you and others.

I tend to try to separate things.  It helps me clarify.

1.  Your personal boundary

2.  Boundary enforcement

Two, very, very, very, I can't stress this enough, very different things.


There is usually a value associated with your boundary.  Many times you "find it" because you feel "icky" after a boundary busting episode.  Instead of lashing and and "slamming the door" or "building a higher wall", I recommend a time of quiet reflection.

Be able to clearly and succinctly state your boundary.  Do NOT explain it to your pwBPD at this time   This process is for you.

My very first boundary involved taking back my password and my privacy.  My email is myname.myname@email.com (you get the idea).  There is nothing "we" about it.  It is mine.  The contents of that are an extension of my mind.  Therefore, I am the only person (in accordance with my values) that gets to determine who looks in there, sends emails from there, etc etc.

Point of contrast:   If the email was "fffamily@lotsakids.com"  I would be controlling and dictatorial (not a good boundary) to try to say I am the only person that gets to determine access.  There are other people in my family, the name on the email (by definition) implies that there are several people.  I WOULD have the capability to back out of participating in that email, but that would be (IMO) the extent of my control.

I was lucky that several senior people told me to slow down and NOT enforce the boundary  Yes, you heard it right.  UNTIL I was ready to hold up my enforcement efforts.  Basically, is this a hill I will die on.  Will I "go to the mat".  Use whatever analogy you want, but I think you get the picture.

.

So, my advice is.  Let them keep running over your boundary for a bit, while you carefully consider the impact on your emotions and life.  You may figure out it's not that big a deal, in that case use "radical acceptance" and move along.  There will be some quirks involved in a pwBPD r/s.

If you figure out it is a big deal, then you MUST enforce it consistently.  You will make it worse if you are inconsistent

Article below gives some reasoning.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

In my case, "taking back" the boundary was easy.  I changed the password and locked my phone.  She didn't react for several weeks. 

"Holding" the boundary is where it gets tricky with pwBPD.  They will use all sorts of dysfunctional tools to "get back across" the boundary.

Again, YOU MUST NOT LET THEM BACK IN!

So, if she said "give me password or I divorce you", I needed to be ready to not react and not collapse. 

What turned out to be the dysfunctional tool she uses was SEX.  She got me all ready to go.  TMI alert for prudes, move along if easily offended.  The rest of you can get a drink and popcorn and enjoy the movie,

Well, I was about to insert myself (read penis) into her and the odd thing she was doing was that she had her hand on me so she could guide.  She wanted me to "feel" it but she directed it away when I would push.  We play around a lot with sex and generally have a lot of "relations" so I just figured she was messing around.

She asked me if I wanted in, and what did I say?  Yep, I wanted in.  I don't know exactly how many back and forths there were but she made sure I wanted in and I was ready.

"Give me your password and I will let you in there, "

Dude,         

Somehow I remembered the advice to not react.  I rolled off.  Said something about no that wouldn't work for me, and luckily hushed.  She was pissed, then quiet.  Then acted like it was no big deal or that she was kidding.  It was really odd to see the extinction burst get big (just like article predicted), and then vanish like it never happened.

Had I reacted badly, I would have handed her more control and the monster would have gotten bigger.

Hope you enjoyed your popcorn!   

I certainly enjoy having my privacy and she rarely brings it up anymore. 

I have "radically accepted" that she is a snooper.  And so when I mess up and leave a computer open and unlocked.  That's my fault, not hers.  I know who and what she is.  It's my job to maintain a boundary.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey AndrewS, Thanks, friend!  Will look up that book and ACT.  Yes, marriage to a pwBPD was a crucible for my personal growth, for which I'm grateful.  Hard lessons, but sometimes those are the best.  Sounds like you are moving forward in a new direction, which is what its all about.

LuckyJim

[Sky100]

Thank you everyone for sharing your personal struggles and experiences with BPD. I truly get so much from the posts here.

In my previous post on this thread, I said I was tired of learning about BPD. I apologize because I am really grateful for this site and so appreciative of all I have learned from all of you.

I think I used the wrong words. What I meant to say is that I am tired of trying to fix my BPDh. I tried for years to be understaning of his illness  and really believed that he would change. Now , of course I see that I was just being co-dependent . After a 20-year marriage that is ending terribly I want to start putting my energy on my own healing. Of course part of my healing is learning about BPD and also the part that I played in continuing such an unhealthy relationship.

JQ - Thank you for sharing the importants of being responsible for our oun healing. I do agree that learning from eachother and sharing our experiences with one another is a big part of our own recovery.   Thxs

[formflier]

The good news is that focusing on yourself and getting yourself healthier is good for your pwBPD.

It may not "fix" him, but will nudge in the right direction.

FF