Hate from uBPD/NPDw towards D11

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My wife lost it with my daughter over dillydallying instead of doing homework.  She was screaming at her while my daughter was in the closet crying.  While I have not been able to really interrupt with words (working on it), I found pushing myself into the mix is enough to derail my wife, a bit.  It is amusing that I am more scared to talk than to throw myself between wife and someone else.

The issue was that my daughter had said one of the reasons that she had not gotten a lot of homework finished since coming home from school was that my wife had a talk with her for over half an hour.  Big trigger as wife thought she was being blamed.

I comforted my daughter and tried to basically describe triggering and one of D11's personality traits which I share:  we just state facts, sometimes without thinking the other person may not like it.  Unfortunately, my wife reads into things that are not there.  I said that her mom may have thought she was blaming her for it.  :)aughter said that was exactly what Mom said.  I told her that she had dillydallied and had been delayed from doing homework, so she was at fault only for the dillydallying afterwards.  I also told her that it did not excuse the screaming by her mom.

Anyway, I asked if her mom had yelled at her recently.  She said yes.  Her mom had screamed at her in the car the previous day while going to someplace nearby, but D11 had no clue about why she was angry.  She was screaming, "I hate you!".  When she was picked up, my wife told her that she was sorry for screaming but the words were true.  My wife may have meant some other words, but my daughter only remembers and feels the hateful words.

Ironically, things have been doing a little better between the wife and I.  I wonder if she feels she can push harder on the children when things are feeling better between us.

I told her to let me know whenever her mom loses it with her.  I am not trying to turn her against her mom, but I have no other choice since it is my only source of information.

I may end up leaving my wife not for me but for our children.  "Hate" is a very nasty thing to say to anyone, especially your own children.

Any words of advice?  I am also reading "Lesson 5".  Part of this post was just to rant.  

P.S. I did not know which board to post this, but I felt like co-parenting may be sort of what I have to do at times.

[Zon]

My wife lost it with my daughter over dillydallying instead of doing homework.  She was screaming at her while my daughter was in the closet crying.  While I have not been able to really interrupt with words (working on it), I found pushing myself into the mix is enough to derail my wife, a bit.  It is amusing that I am more scared to talk than to throw myself between wife and someone else.

The issue was that my daughter had said one of the reasons that she had not gotten a lot of homework finished since coming home from school was that my wife had a talk with her for over half an hour.  Big trigger as wife thought she was being blamed.

I comforted my daughter and tried to basically describe triggering and one of D11's personality traits which I share:  we just state facts, sometimes without thinking the other person may not like it.  Unfortunately, my wife reads into things that are not there.  I said that her mom may have thought she was blaming her for it.  :)aughter said that was exactly what Mom said.  I told her that she had dillydallied and had been delayed from doing homework, so she was at fault only for the dillydallying afterwards.  I also told her that it did not excuse the screaming by her mom.

Anyway, I asked if her mom had yelled at her recently.  She said yes.  Her mom had screamed at her in the car the previous day while going to someplace nearby, but D11 had no clue about why she was angry.  She was screaming, "I hate you!".  When she was picked up, my wife told her that she was sorry for screaming but the words were true.  My wife may have meant some other words, but my daughter only remembers and feels the hateful words.

Ironically, things have been doing a little better between the wife and I.  I wonder if she feels she can push harder on the children when things are feeling better between us.

I told her to let me know whenever her mom loses it with her.  I am not trying to turn her against her mom, but I have no other choice since it is my only source of information.

I may end up leaving my wife not for me but for our children.  "Hate" is a very nasty thing to say to anyone, especially your own children.

Any words of advice?  I am also reading "Lesson 5".  Part of this post was just to rant.  

P.S. I did not know which board to post this, but I felt like co-parenting may be sort of what I have to do at times.

[livednlearned]

Hi Zon,

I'm so glad you posted here about what you're dealing with.

A hard part about raising kids who have a BPD parent is that natural roles are reversed, where kids feel pressure to validate the parent instead of the opposite way around.

It could be that your wife's drama triangle shifts, as you say, so that D is now the perpetrator, which allows BPD mom to be the victim. When you and she are doing well, maybe you are the perceived as the rescuer/white knight in these scenarios.

When your D tells you about her mom losing it with her, what do you plan to do or say?

[Zon]

Hi Zon,

I'm so glad you posted here about what you're dealing with.

A hard part about raising kids who have a BPD parent is that natural roles are reversed, where kids feel pressure to validate the parent instead of the opposite way around.

It could be that your wife's drama triangle shifts, as you say, so that D is now the perpetrator, which allows BPD mom to be the victim. When you and she are doing well, maybe you are the perceived as the rescuer/white knight in these scenarios.

When your D tells you about her mom losing it with her, what do you plan to do or say?

My daughter has unfortunately been seen as the "perpetrator" for years.  My wife takes many young kid actions (i.e., forgetting, wasting time, etc.) too personal, but on a random basis.  Sometimes, she acts like it is nothing and laughs about it.  Let us just say that the secret sauce recipe is not told to others.  

It is possible about her wanting me to be the white knight in some scenarios.  She has complained that I don't protect her from family.  With our daughter, she has said that she thinks our daughter hates her, but I have not heard that for quite awhile (over a year?).

As to your question, I spoke with my T about that.  I am probably going to start drawing a line in the sand.  The thing I will say is along the lines of, "I know you try to keep yourself out of that bad place in your mind.  If you will not protect the children from yourself, I *will* protect them."  The saying was going to be stronger, but this is tamer as it is strong but leaves it more like a warning.  If she does it again after I tell her this, I will then tell her that I will take the children and leave if she continues.  I think my patience is running out.  I have a huge amount of patience and forgiveness.  So to even consider taking this path, I must be drained.

Now, if she accepts the warning and asks for help, I will direct her to see a therapist.  I asked my T about that.  "What if she concedes that she is out of control?  Send her to therapist?"  He nodded and said yes.

How do I push my daughter to continue to tattle on her mother?  She has already said that she felt odd keeping secrets (i.e., triggering conversations) from her mother.

Although we are still in the same house, I do feel a bit like co-parenting.  To her, rules are meant to be thermonuclear to scare the kids yet make it hard to do anything if they challenge her.  I have to set rules and make punishments before she gets a chance because mine are simple (":)o it again and no TV for today".  If they continue, I just add on extra days.  Plus, I do not care if the TV is off.  Not my loss.    Hers?  ":)o it again and you will not have TV for a month and no candy and no ... ."  She will give a warning about that 5-10 times too.  She may even smack our son although I have told her no hitting.  I already put my foot down hard on her hitting him on the back of the head.  Sorry... .ranting again.  

Also, I will record the talk on my phone for protection.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Turkish]

So pwBPD have trouble with asserting bondaries, too 

Last year, ,y Ex's husband remarked to me that the kids seemed much calmer when I dropped them off. I was watching them tear around the playground, wondering. He said that when their mom brought them back from an activity, they were always riled up and anxious. That hasn't changed, since she has trouble controllng them, an incident last weekend in fact, where she wanted me to pick up D4 from a party where she was acting out, embarrassing Mommy.

I've come up with the One Strike rule. Action... .consequence. No asking. I asked the kds to pic up their toys. They didn't. When I told them to, they did. I will validate them thereafter if they get out of line (my kids are younger, so it's things like hitting, trapping the Chihuhua in the cage and squirting her with water as my son did the other day).

In my case, their mom alternates between trying to validate them too much (and they walking all very her), or getting too angry. Your consistency goes a long way.

The smacking your son on the back of the head sounds concerning. How old is he?

[livednlearned]

Zon,

Are you saying that the consequence when BPD has a rage toward the kids, that you will leave the marriage? Or do you mean, leave the area, as in remove yourselves and the kids if mom is having a tantrum?

If the latter, I might say the phrase in a slightly less triggering, yet still firm way. ""I know you try to keep yourself out of that bad place in your mind. I'm going to help by removing the kids from the situation until feelings have cooled off. When everyone is back to baseline, we can pick up from there." I would say this when she is not emotionally dysregulated, as a heads up how you are going to deal with things going forward.

You may also want to let the kids know in advance what will happen so they understand that dad is giving everyone a time out and it's important to dial down feelings and stop immediately what they are doing and file out calmly and quietly. No back talk, no arguing, no looking for toys or phones or whatnot. Sort of a safety plan without it necessarily being called that. Is that something you can imagine doing?

How do I push my daughter to continue to tattle on her mother?  She has already said that she felt odd keeping secrets (i.e., triggering conversations) from her mother.

I'm trying to remember who discusses this -- I think it's Warshak in the book Divorce Poison. The topic of secrets is a big one with parental alienation, which is why he brings it up. His suggestion is to talk to your D about the difference between privacy, secrets, lies, withholding, and forgetfulness. With my son, when he was 11 or so, I would come up with scenarios and then we would play a game about whether the situation I described was secrecy, privacy, etc. Developmentally, he was old enough to understand the nuances and the moral gray areas that pwBPD struggle to model for kids.

One scenario I remember involved having popsicles in the fridge. Say S14 and I bought them, and then a friend comes over. He really wants something cold because it's so hot outside and asks S14 if we have anything sweet and cold he could have. S14 says no, we don't, because he forgot that we bought them. Friend discovers them in the fridge. Is that keeping secrets? Is that lying?

I would keep shifting the details so we could think about whether it was privacy or secrecy, lies or withholding, and when was it ok to keep secrets, when was it ok to keep things private. One scenario was that the friend was diabetic and kept having health problems because his diet was not good. His mom asked to please make sure friend did not eat too much bad food. If friend wants sweets and we know they aren't good for him, and know that he will get sick if he eats them, are we keeping secrets for his own protection? Is that ok? What if the popsicles were made with medication and we don't want to discuss this because the illness is something private. Is it ok to not mention the popsicles to avoid the conversation about a private matter only the family knows about?

Bit of a goofy example, but that's the one I remember most.

I'm not sure if this is why my son confided as much as he did in me. We have had a remarkably close relationship and part of it, I feel, has to do with these delineations around secrecy. Kids with BPD parents learn to compartmentalize in ways that can increase their safety, though at a cost to their emotional development and resilience. Compartmentalizing difficult things can increase the sense that they are alone and isolated in dealing with mom or dad, so we have to create the ultimate safety for them in a family structure that is not safe.

Hard stuff.  

[Zon]

So pwBPD have trouble with asserting bondaries, too 

No kidding!

Last year, my Ex's husband remarked to me that the kids seemed much calmer when I dropped them off. I was watching them tear around the playground, wondering. He said that when their mom brought them back from an activity, they were always riled up and anxious. That hasn't changed, since she has trouble controllng them, an incident last weekend in fact, where she wanted me to pick up D4 from a party where she was acting out, embarrassing Mommy.

I've come up with the One Strike rule. Action... .consequence. No asking. I asked the kds to pic up their toys. They didn't. When I told them to, they did. I will validate them thereafter if they get out of line (my kids are younger, so it's things like hitting, trapping the Chihuhua in the cage and squirting her with water as my son did the other day).

In my case, their mom alternates between trying to validate them too much (and they walking all very her), or getting too angry. Your consistency goes a long way.

I am surprised that I have not heard "Never embarrass Mommy" from her, but it has come close.   

My wife either allows them too many chances, threatens huge unmanageable punishments, lets punishments fade away or any mix of the above.  I have been even been blamed for her letting the children get away with things because I told her no hitting a few times.   

The smacking your son on the back of the head sounds concerning. How old is he?

He is five.  They are angry hits too.  She will be mad at him, chastise him then head up the stairs where he is sitting.  He will be sitting there quiet, and she will smack the back of his head as she goes upstairs.  He will start crying because he does not know why he got that hit.  I told her not to hit him a little later after that.

[Zon]

Zon,

Are you saying that the consequence when BPD has a rage toward the kids, that you will leave the marriage? Or do you mean, leave the area, as in remove yourselves and the kids if mom is having a tantrum?

More the former.  She has kind of shot the marriage with her personality.  Although she can be nice at times, there is a lot of baggage that is not going away.  I stay for the children and because I have a hard time leaving relationships.  However, if she is hitting me in both areas, then I will have an easier time.  I have tried MC and have my own T.  She is did not like the MC but is willing to go to another one if *I* want to do it.  She will not see a T for herself.  My wife controls all intimacy between us.  At this point, I have no interest in a relationship where only one person can safely initiate anything (even hugs!).

If the latter, I might say the phrase in a slightly less triggering, yet still firm way. ""I know you try to keep yourself out of that bad place in your mind. I'm going to help by removing the kids from the situation until feelings have cooled off. When everyone is back to baseline, we can pick up from there." I would say this when she is not emotionally dysregulated, as a heads up how you are going to deal with things going forward.

You may also want to let the kids know in advance what will happen so they understand that dad is giving everyone a time out and it's important to dial down feelings and stop immediately what they are doing and file out calmly and quietly. No back talk, no arguing, no looking for toys or phones or whatnot. Sort of a safety plan without it necessarily being called that. Is that something you can imagine doing?

Definitely, I would say it nicer if I was strongly feeling the latter.  However, I suspect more and more that she is doing more out of my view regarding the children.  My daughter's case shows that.  That is why I am being pushed to the former.

Hmm.  I have not considered a plan on how to take the children and leave in either case.  I was thinking about it last night.  I have family I can take them to.  My mom would welcome us, but my wife may react very negatively to that.  We own this house together, but I am the only one with income.  Even if she got a job (and she can too!), she could not afford the mortgage.

How do I push my daughter to continue to tattle on her mother?  She has already said that she felt odd keeping secrets (i.e., triggering conversations) from her mother.

I'm trying to remember who discusses this -- I think it's Warshak in the book Divorce Poison. The topic of secrets is a big one with parental alienation, which is why he brings it up. His suggestion is to talk to your D about the difference between privacy, secrets, lies, withholding, and forgetfulness. With my son, when he was 11 or so, I would come up with scenarios and then we would play a game about whether the situation I described was secrecy, privacy, etc. Developmentally, he was old enough to understand the nuances and the moral gray areas that pwBPD struggle to model for kids.

One scenario I remember involved having popsicles in the fridge. Say S14 and I bought them, and then a friend comes over. He really wants something cold because it's so hot outside and asks S14 if we have anything sweet and cold he could have. S14 says no, we don't, because he forgot that we bought them. Friend discovers them in the fridge. Is that keeping secrets? Is that lying?

I would keep shifting the details so we could think about whether it was privacy or secrecy, lies or withholding, and when was it ok to keep secrets, when was it ok to keep things private. One scenario was that the friend was diabetic and kept having health problems because his diet was not good. His mom asked to please make sure friend did not eat too much bad food. If friend wants sweets and we know they aren't good for him, and know that he will get sick if he eats them, are we keeping secrets for his own protection? Is that ok? What if the popsicles were made with medication and we don't want to discuss this because the illness is something private. Is it ok to not mention the popsicles to avoid the conversation about a private matter only the family knows about?

Bit of a goofy example, but that's the one I remember most.

That is a wonderful idea.  I like it.  Thank you!

I'm not sure if this is why my son confided as much as he did in me. We have had a remarkably close relationship and part of it, I feel, has to do with these delineations around secrecy. Kids with BPD parents learn to compartmentalize in ways that can increase their safety, though at a cost to their emotional development and resilience. Compartmentalizing difficult things can increase the sense that they are alone and isolated in dealing with mom or dad, so we have to create the ultimate safety for them in a family structure that is not safe.

Hard stuff.  

I can understand that.  I actually ended up a bit like that (compartmentalized) myself but not from abusive parents.  Divorced parents and lots of moving plus a very quiet boy.    My wife inadvertently reinforced that.  She complains about me hiding my feelings from her.  Of course, I do when I am being chewed out for tiny things as if they are major.