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Author Topic: BPD family not feeling like family to me smh  (Read 640 times)
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« on: April 30, 2016, 02:51:31 PM »

I recently joined this message board because I needed support and a way to encourage people about improving their relationship with their pwBPD. This was really important to me because on my journey with my pwBPD it was so challenging to find any positive information or encouragement to those of us struggling with our partners but want to learn how to make our relationship work. I did alot of my own research. Read alot of blogs and books and a myriad of YouTube clips. I began to take care of my self learn empathy validation skills and active listening and put them into practice. And all my efforts worked! My relationship improved so much and now I'm equipped and know what to do. It's been quite a fantastic journey.

Anyway I wanted to have a place where I could share this journey with others that there are so many things you can do to improve your relationship. But what I find alot here on this board is little empathy for this mental illness. I know first hand the pain and the ups and downs of being in a relationship with someone with BPD. But if you dont have empathy for the person with this mental illness you will be hurt and disappointed.

People with BPD are suffering more than you could ever imagine. I posted a message a few weeks ago where I put a link to a blog from a person with BPD. The blog entry was so insightful and helped me get a glimpse into the mind of a person with BPD. I wanted to share it thinking that it would help those who don't understand how the mental illness distorts emotions and could help someone gain more insight into why their partner does the things they do. If you understand BPD better it will help you soo much.  Anyway my post was reviewed and the link removed.

Now I understand there are guidelines to being on this board. But I felt alot of rejection and my feelings were really hurt by that. I know they are trying to protect people from misinformation but I just felt disciplined and chastised!

Anyway what's the point of this board if we are not here to give each other hope and encouragment that a relationship with someone with BPD can work. And you can be happy! I'm living proof... it takes alot of work but you can have a fulfilling relationship.

Alot of the tools and resources I posted helped me personally. In fact this relationship has made me a much more compassionate and loving individual. I'm so grateful for my pwBPD. And my heart is so big for people with the illness. I want to spread awareness and support for people with BPD and to all who are trying to improve your relationship with these very special people. It takes alot of work and patience and practice.

I just thought I would see more empathy here... .but there was little empathy or validation for me sharing my thoughts and what has really helped me.

I just don't know about this board... im very disappointed!
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 04:59:21 PM »

Hi Bpdsupporter

Validation is one of the most important tools on this website. In our article about validation we say the following: "nowhere is the communication skill of validation more important than in interfacing with highly sensitive individuals, individuals with low self esteem or individuals who are easily intimidated. This is a very valuable tool for dealing with people with Borderline Personality Disorder."

You can read the article here: Validation

I am glad you have benefited so much from these skills. Validation of feelings is indeed vital to connecting with others in all phases of relationships: To validate someone's feelings is first to accept someone's feelings - and then to understand them - and finally to nurture them. To validate is to acknowledge and accept a person.

When it comes to emotional intelligence, validation truly is one of the most advanced skills as it opens people up and contributes to creating a sense of comfort and safety when communicating with each other.

Once you are able to empathize with others, specifically the person with BPD in your life, this will also help in your own healing process and also allow you to empathize with yourself:

How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?

Giving hope is definitely important, especially in situations when people might be losing or have already lost hope. Being in a relationship with someone with BPD can be challenging, but there are things we can learn that can improve the relationship even if the other person (initially) does not change. We cannot control what the other person does, but what we can control is our own behavior:

What does it take to be in a relationship with a borderline?

I think it is also important to keep in mind that not all people with BPD are the same and not all people with BPD will respond the same way to the communication techniques described on this website. Generally speaking the evidence supports the efficacy of these tools, yet some people with BPD will respond to them more positively than others.

Our individual thoughts, ideas and opinions are of course important to each of us. I think it is also important to keep in mind that not all members posting here are in the same stage of the learning or healing process and members might also have opinions that differ from our own. That is ok on a message board and all these differences need to be respected. It is important for all of us to be patient and understanding of other members who might be in different stages of the learning or healing process than we are or who might simply have a different opinion about certain things than we do.
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 07:23:03 PM »

In the past, when I have made what I felt were constructive criticisms to the way threads are edited, that post was removed.  I was instead directed to use the site appeal feature in a constructive way.  (Your current thread may or may not not last, just sayin)

I too recall feeling rejected and chastised!

Sometimes afterwards, I realized I was triggered and posting from a more emotionally charged state.  I was able to see things a bit differently after taking some space from the info.  

Other times I simply disagreed and had to accept a difference in opinion and ideas on the matter.

I think there are many possibilities for persons to not appear to be demonstrating compassion for the person with BPD in their life:

1. Actually lacking in compassion for pwBPD

2. Ignorance

3. Anger is covering up realization of compassion

4. Person actually does have compassion, yet not tuned into it because focusing on own experience is quite strong

5. Actually does have compassion, yet is posting regarding crisis or such and expressing "problem areas" vs pwBPD gifts.

6. Often help is sought here when there is a problem.  This is likely a time when compassion may be temporarily low.

7. Blaming, painting another black, etc are not traits just used by pwBPD.

8. And so on and so on... .

My point:

Just as compassion can be had for pwBPD who exhibit primitive coping behaviors, so too can compassion be had for the persons without BPD who exhibit similar/ the same primitive coping behaviors.

Persons without BPD often feel pressured to be the strong one, the one that holds it together, the one not allowed to ever be sick, the one always relied on.  Persons without BPD get sick physically, sick emotionally, and even break, and sometimes were always broken as well.

I do not see the need for a label for understanding and compassion towards a another being.

BPD or no BPD... .

We all can use some compassion!

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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 10:48:09 PM »

To be honest most people come to forums seeking empathy rather than because they are full of it. Hence you will get the negative vibe at times. Much like working in a Hospital ER you can start to believe everyone in the world is sick.

The improving board has turned a lot of peoples lives around, many no longer feel the need to visit much, and others have had to head over to Leaving, but they have done so in a far more balanced and less vengeful way.

Your supportive messages have been appreciated, but not everyone has yet reached the sunny side of the hill and are still trudging up the stormy side. Learning empathy and tolerance is a slow and difficult path. Knowing there can be sunshine on the other side is important so don't get disheartened.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 11:11:51 PM »

Educational thread. Loved what Sunfl0wer said about us all needing empathy. Bpdsupporter, it's awesome that you are so empathetic and commited to your person w/BPD. Good for you. As for myself, I don't know that I have the energy. It's like always swimming against the current. Great to see that your objections were aired; democratic of bpdfamily, no doubt. Thanks for sharing BPDsupporter!
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2016, 01:33:42 AM »

On the subject of negative venting, this to a degree provides empathy and validation to other members who me at the wrong end of a rough deal. Simply trying to sell them the warm and fuzzies is very invalidating. However, care needs to be taken that this does not become unrestrained and becomes over the top.

This is were recentering comes into play, to maintain a healthy balance.
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« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2016, 05:14:22 AM »

I think it may help to reiterate the mission of the board which is to offer support to the family members of someone suffering with BPD. While the hope is to repair relationships if possible, this can require personal work and healing for family members.

IMHO, both the person with BPD and those connected to that person are hurting, and have been subjected to relationship stress. People can arrive at this board at various states of awareness, confusion, and personal distress. Asking them at this point to be supportive and compassionate at that moment, can feel invalidating. By the time they come here, they may be at the end of their rope. This doesn't negate the importance of compassion and support- for all people, including the partner with BPD, but learning how to do so in an emotionally healthy way can take time. People who have co-dependent tendencies may feel they have been as supportive and compassionate as they could be, not realizing how some of  their behaviors can exacerbate the issues that concern them.

The regulations of the board can take some getting used to, but they serve the purpose of keeping the focus as a group for partners and family members of pwBPD.  In the case of emotionally charged and challenging relationships, it is beneficial to maintain a focus on the partner- as this is a board for partners. This is because when people come here seeking change, the only change we are in control of is our own. Presenting the viewpoints of BPD can be helpful, but they can also be triggering and take the focus off the course of the non's personal healing-which is essential to helping themselves and their partner.

Waverider mentioned an important point as well. While the anger and pain of the non needs to be addressed, prolonged venting is discouraged. The aim is to keep a balance of compassion, focus, and reality- the situations people struggle with. It is great that you have arrived here at a point of compassion and happiness in your relationship and wish to share your knowledge. However, not everyone arrives ready, or willing to be at that place at the moment, but we all have the capacity to grow and learn to be better people. In a sense, we are all here sharing our stories in hopes of helping others and gaining help ourselves. While BPD relationships can fit into patterns, more or less, everyone is different, and so each relationship is a combination of two unique people, and will reflect that.

In many cases, particularly if the non is co-dependent, they have "given" compassion and understanding to the point of feeling burned out. Co-dependency is an excessive focus on the other person. In this situation, what is needed is to turn the focus on them, not the person with BPD. This focus may also include pointing out actions on the part of the non that have contributed to the dysfunction. This isn't a good guy/bad guy scenario. Both partners brought positive attributes and emotionally unhealthy relationship skills into that partnership. Like they say on an airplane, put the oxygen mask on you first. Compassion on the part of the non may grow if he/she gives some of that to themselves first.

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 12:29:32 AM »

Great insight and thoughts. I read from this thread. I must say it was nice to feel that my thoughts were respected and validated even though there are differences in opinion. Thanks for letting me be able to express myself and not judging me.

I will say that on my journey there has amassed an overwhelming amount of information on the negative side and dramas of BPD. When things got really really bad between my partner and I the last thing I wanted to read was another person talking about leaving the relationship and giving up, I really wanted to read more success stories. I wanted to read about couples who still had challenges but were making it through. That's what I thought the improving board would be about. But it seems to be far and few between that I read about BPD advocacy and couples who have made it work. Maybe there should be a board just for that. Maybe it already exists here. It might be more of what I'm looking for... .I don't know.

When I read Shari Manning book I knew it was possible to have a fufilling relationship with someone with BPD. Its definitly not for everyone... but if you want it its possible! So forgive me for spreading warm and fuzzies but this conversation needs to exist as well. For people like me whose tierd of the negative... Heck I lived through all of that. I have to be that beacon of hope for those who really want to make it work. It's not easy but it's possible. I'm still learning everyday how to do that and I  wont give up.

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 06:54:32 AM »

I will try to address this from my own point of view, not a representation of the staff of the board. One can find all  kinds of resources/posts on the internet, as freedom of speech allows for that. However, I think this board attempts to address the issues that can arise in a relationship with a pw BPD. Because it is primarily for the partners and family members, not the pw BPD, it is not, designed to be primarily a BPD advocacy and support group for pw BPD.

While posters may post their stories, their issues of concern, and they may be negative, the purpose of this board is not just to engage in bashing pw BPD, but to address the steps people can take to make their relationships better. It is a relationship advocacy board in that sense.

BPD-non relationships are complicated in that, there is a mental illness component and behavioral components. While it is not the fault of the person that they have a mental illness, the maladaptive behaviors on both the part of the pwBPD and the non need to be addressed in order to have a plan of improvement. They are real. However, presenting the issues risks possibly offending some readers. However, being purposely offensive would be going against the guidelines of the board. I think it is important to emphasize that discussing the difficulties is about the behavior, not the person themselves. Many people here do love their family member, but they are also unhappy with the issues in the relationship and wish to change that.

I think readers have to decide for themselves which board most fits their objectives. It is good that many boards exist for that reason. There could be boards that focus primarily on venting. There could also be boards for advocacy and even political action. It would be good to have more research and treatment options, but this board focuses on the relationship aspects. There are boards that are primarily for pw BPD.  However, BPD presents itself most in an intimate relationship and this has an impact on the people closest to a pw BPD. I see this board as a resource to help those people improve their relationship with their family member with BPD. IMHO, it would be dishonest to not present the challenges they face.

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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 07:23:21 AM »

Excerpt
That's what I thought the improving board would be about. But it seems to be far and few between that I read about BPD advocacy and couples who have made it work.

What are the divorce statistics? Over 50% get divoreced?  So consider that some are not getting divorced, but also not happy.  In the general population, the majority of persons who marry do not have a sucessful time of it, so why would we expect the majority to be success stories?  Now consider adding the element of mental illnes.  Ok, now let's go farther and specifically add a mental illness that has a poor prognosis by reports from therapists who actually report having a difficult time working with this population.  Professionals who are trained have a hard time with this population.

I feel the reality IS (RA) that there are not the majority of success stories in persons working on improving their relationship.  Just the idea there is something to improve indicates that where the relationship is at -is not a place of satisfaction.

Ok, now consider that people engaged in a support forum to improve are not likely to be ones who have little room for improvement and are experiencing success and happiness and feel content.

I have read a lot on the topic of PD.  I have not seen what you expected, a collection of people that are sharing in a majority of success stories re dealing with a relationship with a SO with BPD.

It sounds like you may add value to the forum by offering a perspective that has little voice here.
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 08:58:35 AM »

Success here is about you finding out what this is all about and amending your own behaviors and attitudes to interacting with people, and in particular PDs, to reach the best state of healthy harmony you can. This takes commitment. If at the end an individual relationship fails, this does not mean you have failed simply that the end result, which was right for you, was maybe not the one you wanted.

It is still a considered and educated conclusion, hence it is a success. To persist in a relationship that is never going to result in a worthwhile future out of commitment alone, is a failure to yourself.

Personally I am over the hump of wondering what is going on and eliminating toxicity, to the point that I am committed until death do us part. That does not mean i am devoid of frustrations and eyerolling, simply that I work through them here with folks who understand, so that I can minimize the impact on my relationship. That is a healthy way of dealing with them. Without a long time and interaction on this board I could never have achieved that level of educated commitment. Previously it was just wishful thinking.

re divorce rates the majority of PD marriages fail without either party ever really learning there is a PD at play. Many stay to gether and stay toxic until the end, which is hardly a 'sucess", so who knows what the real "success" rate is, but it will be very small
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 10:54:55 PM »

It sounds like you may add value to the forum by offering a perspective that has little voice here.

Wow I guess I thought there would be more people here sharing how they improved their relationships... but I can see based off all the statistics and things why having a positive outlook on a relationship with someone with BPD would make that reality pretty bleak.

But I will say all the research especially about dbt and validation and listening really helped me. What made the difference I think about my relationship was that I began to take all his feelings seriously. I use to think he was so crazy and illogical insensitive and selfish. Quite judgemental right? So I had to really stop all that. I began to empathize and realize that he was experiencing so much pain. I'm an empath anyway and there were times that I could really feel what he was going through and it made me weep. It made my heart feel so heavy for people who have to suffer with this emotional dysregulation.

Anyway I knew if things were going to be different between us I had to change. I had to take  this illness seriously, like if I were dating someone who was autistic or had a physical infirmity. Those types of relationships have obvious challenges that people get through, but there is more empathy and less stigmatizism.

Anyway I will gladly be a voice of hope. I sometimes feel like the BPD whisperer or something Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Because all the techniques I've learned and practiced work like magic.Our pwBPD will always have to deal with emotional dysregulation. It's not going to change of course they can get help.to manage it. But i stop hoping he would changed and just learned how to be there for him by validating empathezie and listening. I no longer was taken off guard. I know what to do. And to be honest that's really what I was looking for. Because regardless of all the heartache pain and rough times we had I knew he was suffering more than I was because he has a legitimate mental lness and doing the best he can.

Anyway the learning never stops I'm constantly researching ways to improve my skills. Im super nerdy and love resesrching all this BPD stuff. Plus i actice these skills with others i just feel like its msking me such a better person and friend across the board... and it feel pretty damn good! I even try to look outside of the box.

For instance I've recently been looking at video clips dealing with how to calm a toddler down when they have temper tantrums. I won't post the link but this lady gives some great advice that will work very well when dealing with our partners when  they throw tantrums. If you want the link private message me. It's pretty insightful. Becasue just know our pwBPD are going to have tantrums from time to time.

Oh and I always want to stress what helped me the most was self care. All these skills won't work if you feel drained depleted anxious depressed and stressed. Which is probably the majority of the people on this board. And understandbly so.

Ok didn't mean to write a novel... .thanks for the insights!


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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 12:07:45 AM »

BPDsupporter,

You are being honest and open. Speaking as someone detached, many of us on that board reminisce, "if only I had done xyz... ., but I didn't know then what I know now." It comes down to what are you willing to do. Children, assets, length of marriage or r/s certainly add complications as well. Few relatipionships exist in a vacuum.

There isn't a panecea for any r/s, but the most significant factor is realizing that we can only control ourselves, and no one is responsible for us but us. 

There hasn't been an update to the Success Stories thread at the top of the board for a while. Perhaps you can summarize what is significant from your story and post there. A lot of people lurk here, often never posting. A story of hope may bring some people in from the cold to talk...   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2016, 07:34:57 AM »

Great discussion!

It seems like bpdfamily might be starting to feel like family now Smiling (click to insert in post)

What made the difference I think about my relationship was that I began to take all his feelings seriously. I use to think he was so crazy and illogical insensitive and selfish. Quite judgemental right? So I had to really stop all that. I began to empathize and realize that he was experiencing so much pain.

That is really important what you say here. No matter how extreme or 'absurd' someone else's feelings might seem, the feelings are still real nonetheless:

Excerpt
Telling a person she shouldn't feel the way she does feel is akin to telling water it shouldn't be wet, grass it shouldn't be green, or rocks they shouldn't be hard. Each person's feelings are real. Whether we like or understand someone's feelings, they are still real. Rejecting feelings is rejecting reality; it is to fight nature and may be called a crime against nature, "psychological murder", or "soul murder." Considering that trying to fight feelings, rather than accept them, is trying to fight all of nature, you can see why it is so frustrating, draining and futile.

***

Anyway I knew if things were going to be different between us I had to change. I had to take  this illness seriously, like if I were dating someone who was autistic or had a physical infirmity. Those types of relationships have obvious challenges that people get through, but there is more empathy and less stigmatizism.

... .

Our pwBPD will always have to deal with emotional dysregulation. It's not going to change of course they can get help.to manage it. But i stop hoping he would changed and just learned how to be there for him by validating empathezie and listening. I no longer was taken off guard. I know what to do.

What you say here I also find very important. We cannot control or change the other person, but what we can do is change our own behavior and responses and by doing so we will be able to change the dynamics of the relationship, regardless of whether the other person changes or not. That's also the focus of one of our articles in which we focus on what we can do ourselves to end the cycle of conflict and dysfunction:

Ending Cycle of Conflict

This also ties into the concept of radical acceptance. If we do not accept, or to use another word acknowledge the reality we are living in, it will be very hard to make a change. This is how Marsha M. Linehan put it in one of her talks:

"If you want to change something, you have to accept it first. You can't change something you don't accept. If you don't face the reality as it is, if you deny it how are you going to change it? If you think there is no cause, it just happened magically or fate or luck, how are you going to change it?

So, acceptance is required."


Anyway the learning never stops I'm constantly researching ways to improve my skills. Im super nerdy and love resesrching all this BPD stuff. Plus i actice these skills with others i just feel like its msking me such a better person and friend across the board... and it feel pretty damn good! I even try to look outside of the box.

I too have found that the skills required to deal with BPD individuals, in many ways are highly advanced life skills that can also be very helpful in other areas of life such as at work.

Oh and I always want to stress what helped me the most was self care. All these skills won't work if you feel drained depleted anxious depressed and stressed. Which is probably the majority of the people on this board. And understandbly so.

A good reminder Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) It is very hard to be there for someone if you aren't also there for yourself. Being mindful of our own well-being and taking good care of ourselves is crucial indeed.

Welcome to our online community BPDsupporter
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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2016, 11:59:08 AM »

Now I understand there are guidelines to being on this board. But I felt alot of rejection and my feelings were really hurt by that. I know they are trying to protect people from misinformation but I just felt disciplined and chastised!

Anyway what's the point of this board if we are not here to give each other hope and encouragment that a relationship with someone with BPD can work. And you can be happy! I'm living proof... it takes alot of work but you can have a fulfilling relationship.

Pages into someone's post I commented that I thought people were excusing pwBPD's affairs.  Wow, is that not the BPD company line... .and the administrators here let me know... .

I started getting personal notes... .this is the "Staying" board, you should be supportive... .I replied if someone on the Staying board said they were being physically abused, are we not allowed to tell them to "Run"?  My view is an affair is emotional abuse and should be treated the same.

I'm not sure why this exchange was done in private email, instead of part of the thread... .

Then I started getting emails pointing out that it seemed like I was only venting in this post... .OK... .Maybe, but other users title there thread's "Hey, just venting... .". Is that against the policies or is it just for me... .

Whether your view may help others or not doesn't seem to be the issue... .I got the message, just don't fight the powers that be... .
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 01:27:22 PM »

this offers more information about "run" messages on this board:

Additional guidelines for Improving board/Please read before posting 

Please do not urge participants to exit the relationship. Members post her to find solutions to difficult relationships. People who are staying with a person with BPD need a safe place to post and get support.  We can't help and support people if they aren't here. Please allow them the opportunity. The people posting here are with the BPD person in their life and have made a commitment to stay (at least for now) and make the best of it.  They are interested in learning tools of validation, communication, etc., to help improve the relationship. 

Please don't urge somebody to "run" as that isn't what people want to hear if they are posting on Staying.  If someone posts something that is alarming because they are describing serious abuse towards themselves or abuse towards children, it is appropriate to urge them to seek legal or medical help.  If you see posters violating this guideline, please feel free to notify a staff member.  It is acceptable to mention the difficulties of staying, but comments such as "Run and don't look back.  Look at my life - don't make the same mistake.  You are wasting your time.  You should leave now" are not appropriate on this board.

a members perspective:
I'm glad you pointed out about people saying you should run... .I'm a new-ish member and when I first posted on here, I got someone saying that things are only going to get worse for me and that I should leave now!

I was so upset and even scared by the comments that I got, because up until then I had every faith that with a LOT of work, talking, understanding and communication things will be ok, even through the bad days! I spent the next few days really worrying about what I should do!

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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 01:30:07 PM »

For me personally, I do find it helpful to discuss 'behind the scenes' type of stuff here.  In my FOO, the 'behind the scenes' stuff was taboo which enabled me to feel like questioning this experience was not ok.  It made me suppress a lot of dialogue and questioning about my circumstances not just out loud, but even in my thoughts.  It made me feel a bit like another perspective was not permitted to exist.  Hence why I do appreiciate dialogue and discussion about the way we post.  I am grateful for this dialogue!

Now having said that, I do feel that having cross dialogue within a thread can be distracting to the OP and distract from OP getting support they were seeking.  Hence, I feel there are times when it is more helpful to the community as a whole to discuss such issues via PM, or begin a new thread if that seems appropriate to do.  There may be a guideline about cross talk, I think. (Cannot recall exactly though)

Excerpt
I started getting personal notes... .this is the "Staying" board, you should be supportive... .I replied if someone on the Staying board said they were being physically abused, are we not allowed to tell them to "Run"?  My view is an affair is emotional abuse and should be treated the same.

I relate strongly and personally to seeing many posts, especially in the staying board that seem to enable to OP member to maintain a relationship of abuse.  My personal feelings are that this is likely inherent in this type of forum to a degree when many members participating have coped by normalizing, rationalizing, minimizing abuse in their own lives.  I often sit behind my own screen biting my lips, or restraining my fingers wondering why the heck someone isn't shaking up the OP and exclaiming that their SO and relationship is grossly abusive and the situation is outrageous!  

I have been tempted on numerous occasions to post a thread regarding supporting other members who are specifically and clearly engaged in abusive dynamics.  However, as triggering as this topic is to me, I have not.  I am not prepared to discuss with others who defend and minimize, etc such outrageous situations.  It would upset me too much, I would succumb to much JADEing and likely be left unsatisfied.

Excerpt
Then I started getting emails pointing out that it seemed like I was only venting in this post... .OK... .Maybe, but other users title there thread's "Hey, just venting... .". Is that against the policies or is it just for me... .

Just feel like sharing my thoughts on this topic, as once again you have brought up something that I have felt strongly about, however, this time maybe not in a similar perspective as you.  So it does happen to bother me when I see the same member on here mostly only venting.  It feels misleading to me and bothers me to see other members genuinely reach out to try to offer pragmatic options and see the venting member reject any help and reject even discussions of any help and only uses each post as an opportunity to do more venting.  (I am not at all bothered by people who vent most of the time but are genuinely attempting to change things at a slower pace, but do engage in some self reflection for change.  I am more bothered by ones who seem stuck and cling to ruminating on problems and the rumination actually appears defeating the members progress instead of facilitating it and steers the focus away from self for extended time frame, thus effectively enabling member to actually neglect tending to own emotional needs.)

Oh, by the way, I did comb through guidelines many months ago to find one that is against venting.  I even went so far as to reach out to a moderator to help provide it, feeling certain I came across one.  None exists.  I am ok with this now, and have come to prefer this.  It is probably better to not prohibit venting as that would also mute many new members fresh in tricky situations, or people needing to work on anger, or well, sometimes venting is not counter productive and even when it is, we can learn from that as well.  (I admit a post a while ago purposely venting to work on expressing anger, it was very useful and I still likely can use some more venting like practice, productive venting of course  )

I suppose if I were to apply my own thinking and not have that previous paragraph be just another useless vent, I could self reflect.  I could see that it bothers me because I am upset when I feel another is taking hold of, clinging to and defends a victim role as a main feature of their identity.  Quite simply, it makes me feel useless and inept to help them.  Also, I have compassion and it pains me slightly to see them marinate in their pain.  Maybe I can learn a better emotional distance and practice this when I come across future posts that upset me because of the content vs trying to censor them or me, I could work on experiencing and allowing those feelings.
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 02:07:35 PM »

Excerpt
Then I started getting emails pointing out that it seemed like I was only venting in this post... .OK... .Maybe, but other users title there thread's "Hey, just venting... .". Is that against the policies or is it just for me... .

Just feel like sharing my thoughts on this topic, as once again you have brought up something that I have felt strongly about, however, this time maybe not in a similar perspective as you.  So it does happen to bother me when I see the same member on here mostly only venting.  

Agreed... .especially with your qualifier mostly only venting.

However it doesn't take long her to begin to identify with different users... .whether another user also has kids, is religious, old or young, married or considering marriage.  There are some users I pay more attention to because I believe their situation is more similar to mine.

Users I don't find helpful are usually skimmed or skipped.  That may be because they're mostly venting or their values aren't similar enough to mine.

And while the board policy may state:

Please do not urge participants to exit the relationship. Members post here to find solutions to difficult relationships. People who are staying with a person with BPD need a safe place to post and get support.

It's generally agreed that there is a line that if it's crossed (physically violent) people need to remove themselves.

I don't think discussing what other behaviors may also cross that line creates an unsafe place, after all where that line is drawn will be different for all of us.

Are us non's so fragile that if people express certain opinions it will chase us away?

I think what makes this board safe is its anonymity... .not that people may express divergent opinions.  There's lots of talk about how bad most of us would have it if our pwBPD identified our alias here.
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 03:00:01 PM »

Regarding Domestic Violence... .

Long ago, bpdfamily.com worked with agencies which deal with DV in order to develop the safest protocols that align to what happens out there in the real world. The first line of support is the membership. The protocols can be accessed by clicking the red EMERGENCY button at the bottom of each thread. Staff can connect a member with local resources.

Sometimes diffusing a situation can be as simple as offering on-board support. Centering a member emotionally can keep them safer as they develop a plan with local support and resources. The most dangerous times are when a victim leaves and then returns. Having a safety plan is crucial for a safe exit.

I know that there are people reading here, perhaps some are posting and others not, who are experiencing recent or ongoing physical violence. 

Our goal as a community is, if a member actively engaged in an argument (which has escalated to physical violence or threats... .or appears to be heading in that direction), to encourage the member to leave the scene and contact a domestic violence hotline[/u] to chat (cool down), get information, or get assistance.  Local telephone counselors click here are best - they can do everything from just answering simple questions and being a friend, to suggesting places to go for immediate / low cost assistance, to dispatching emergency assistance in the event that it is needed.

If there is no dispute in process, our goal is to focus the member on developing a safety plan - this is the number one priority.

Safety planning should occur regardless if you are remaining in an abusive relationship, preparing to leave the relationship, already out of the relationship, or deciding to return to it, feeling threatened or not. It is relatively easy to do, and if you ever need it, you will be glad it was in place.

For men, in addition to safety planning, it is important to protect yourself against false domestic violence charges that can result in jail time and can be used against you in a future divorce or custody dispute. When arguments get heated, if you restrain your partner (even if she is kicking, throwing things) or if you push or hold her (even if she is blocking you from leaving the room or a the house), you are at risk of a domestic violence charge if the police are called - even if you call them. If it becomes "he said" "she said" the male is more at risk of being arrested. If you respond to stress by drinking, your risk goes up as it is harder to control your emotions, and the police will be less willing to listen to you.

Safety planning involves the following:

Reading information about local domestic violence resources and legal rights.

       

Developing detailed plans in case a dangerous situations occurs

Developing detailed plans for leaving the location early, before a fight escalates (men only)

Identification (notification) of safe friends and safe places

Keeping phone numbers of agencies, shelters or the safe friends available and at hand.

List of essential items to take should one need or decide to leave home

Supports (emotional and financial) in place

Plans for obtaining a restraining order

Plans for what to do if there is unexpected contact

DO NOT ENCOURAGE A MEMBER TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP OR THREATEN TO LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP WHEN THEY ARE EMOTIONALLY DISTRAUGHT

Often, leaving the relationship or threatening to leave the relationship escalates the abuse as the controller feels they are losing control.  Leaving the dispute is one thing, but leaving the relationship requires planning and we should encourage members to contact a domestic violence agency for professional assistance in doing this.  Also, many people come here and will leave the board if they are strongly urged to leave the relationship... .because they are not emotionally ready to leave the relationship.

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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2016, 05:32:28 PM »

When you see someone in an obviously bad situation it is better to get them to question thier own reasons for staying in that situation so they can reach their own conclusions. ie lead someone to a solution.

If you just state "leave" it is abrupt and triggers denial and JADE, and hence it is usually ineffective. For many it is completely invalidating and can cause shut down, often the circumstances described are also not always the big picture, only the poster knows that, we can only add information and perspective, not make decisions on their behalf.

Add this to the previous reasons in regards to presenting an "all is lost' feel to the board, not just for this member but also to anyone else who is reaching out for help.

When I first came here I had tales that could quite easily have elicited run messages if it wasn't for guideline restrictions.

With regards to venting, we all do this, it is part of reducing frustrations, and empathizing. However it can be contagious and self fueling. Irritations can take on a  hopeless  status.  It is always better to tail end a gripe with an 'uplift" whether it be a solution going forward or seeing the humorous side to it. Much the same way a TV news program finishes off with uplifting stories, even though it was preceded by horror news items. It also reduces the pile on effect

We are here to move forward not drown in misery.

It all comes down to being centered and maintaining balance, something this site on the whole devotes an enormous amount of energy and resources to achieve.

If you find any topic is swinging too far from a balanced state contact the mods who will monitor it and redirect if necessary. Moderation is more balanced and considered than may appear by the occasional visible moderation interaction.

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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 06:24:11 PM »

Excerpt
It's generally agreed that there is a line that if it's crossed (physically violent) people need to remove themselves.

So from personal experience, I have been on the other side of the DV issue (albeit, many years ago.)

Speaking as a person previously involved with a very dangerous man, I will tell you bluntly that I struggled 'hearing' from others that he was so dangerous. My impulses were wired to reactively defend my abuser because in another area of my brain I was being told that HE IS my source of safety. As waverider states regarding JADE and denial, that is exactly what I did!  I felt enmeshed and dependent so my survival instincts told me to cling to him if another attempted to speak badly of him.  I believe my brain was literally processing from another area of emotion and rejecting rational thinking to a large degree.  I firmly believe I had a form of Stockholm syndrome and also firmly believe many that post here have the same.

So, now what would I have responded to?

(I learn so much from reading and seeing others post to try to reach these people.  I learn both from members who I feel are not influencing the abused members positively and also the ones where I think to myself: "I wish that person spoke to me x# of years ago! I may have been able to receive that message!"

My favorite responses I have seen... .

When a member shows great empathy, concern for the member, and also has respect for the devotion and attachment that the member is experiencing, without judgement.  They then proceed to offer an 'in between solution' (not LEAVE, or DO BETTER and validate your partner) of taking space 'for now.'  Finding a way to help them take space without having to confront the whole big overwhelming picture of the entire relationship is a step in the right direction.  Just thinking in terms of 'space for now or space for this week is way less scary then abandoning the relationship and starting over alone.  

I was wired that my abuser offered safety.  If you threaten that connection, I would have an instinctive fear response.  To allow me to feel safe separating from him somehow for just a day or so, then hopefully building on that until I could detach a bit would be a better route.  This is a bit tricky though as to leave and reconnect and leave may also escalate the whole abuse cycle and a victim is at highest risk when leaving.  That is also a good reason to legitimately consider the victims fears about leaving, even when they appear irrational.  Until they are actually fully 100% committed to really leaving, the risk of leaving and returning can escalate violence/abuse.

So while I say I prefer people tell me to take some space, (maybe also pointing out process of detaching emotionally to minimize emotional hurt and learn to be observer, and practice mindfulness and self care) chances are that I would not have heeded and overcame my Stockholm bond.  Yet, I would have felt a greater sense of being in this world, not so isolated, not so misunderstood and alienated, so that when the seeds of leaving were preparing for germination, the words from such kind members would serve as sunlight and water to those planted seeds.

Edit: Actually now that I think of it, 'taking space' does not have to just take the form of taking a physical break.  There are many ways to take space: physically, emotionally, in your head, etc.  So maybe helping member to take space in any way that they feel that they are able to is great option. (It does not have to be defined only as physical space, well, unless person is in danger at that time)
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« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 07:02:05 AM »

Excerpt
It's generally agreed that there is a line that if it's crossed (physically violent) people need to remove themselves.

So from personal experience, I have been on the other side of the DV issue (albeit, many years ago.)

Speaking as a person previously involved with a very dangerous man, I will tell you bluntly that I struggled 'hearing' from others that he was so dangerous. My impulses were wired to reactively defend my abuser because in another area of my brain I was being told that HE IS my source of safety. As waverider states regarding JADE and denial, that is exactly what I did!  I felt enmeshed and dependent so my survival instincts told me to cling to him if another attempted to speak badly of him.  I believe my brain was literally processing from another area of emotion and rejecting rational thinking to a large degree.  I firmly believe I had a form of Stockholm syndrome and also firmly believe many that post here have the same.

So, now what would I have responded to?

(I learn so much from reading and seeing others post to try to reach these people.  I learn both from members who I feel are not influencing the abused members positively and also the ones where I think to myself: "I wish that person spoke to me x# of years ago! I may have been able to receive that message!"

My favorite responses I have seen... .

When a member shows great empathy, concern for the member, and also has respect for the devotion and attachment that the member is experiencing, without judgement.  They then proceed to offer an 'in between solution' (not LEAVE, or DO BETTER and validate your partner) of taking space 'for now.'  

It's getting hard to keep the tread going because of all the implied conditions when people post... .However, given the hypothetical relationship:

1. non with a pwBPD

2. Early in the relationship and not married

3. pwBPD has been cheating.

4. circumstances convince non that cheating will not stop

5. Original post they're not sure if they should stay or not (I'll leave it to the thread police to point out it may not be the correct board... .)

6. Thread is day old and most thoughts of mine are already expressed.

OK, because of #6 I may keep my reply short & say Run... .simply to add another user to the "run vote".

However if #6 is: Thread is new and I'll be the first reply... .I may change it to something along the lines of "If you can live every day wondering if the pwBPD has been faithful, and you're willing to go through multiple affairs where the pwBPD may or may not a) show remorse b) blame you or c) learn from this so they don't get caught so quickly the next time... .the yes, you may want to try and salvage the relationship... .but you've currently not committed to them for life, it might be a time to rethink your options... .

It's kind of like the sister test... .if my sister came to me and said she wants to describe her relationship and she would rather I not tell her to dump the guy... .I'll listen, empathize, but if she asks me what I think she should do I'll tactfully tell her to move on... .In no way do I think that would result in my sister no longer talking to me, and her I don't think that will chase people away.

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« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 07:26:16 AM »

I think it is important to keep in mind that the person in a relationship with someone with BPD has the choice to stay or leave, regardless whether or not it is discussed. However, as is well known, both these choices are not so simple. Both have gains and consequences. Neither is easy.

All these circumstances are unique to each person and to each relationship. It's impossible to know all of these for any poster.

If we consider this at the level of behavior, a living creature engages in a behavior because of a sum of gains as well as cost. Sometimes this is obvious- a person works for a paycheck. There may be other benefits- personal and emotional to working,  but take away the paycheck and a person may not show up for work.

There are gains to a relationship- sex, companionship, affection, and also some costs. Sometimes the costs can get high in a dysfunctional relationship, but the person stays. This may not make sense to anyone else- because these relationships are between individual people. Some people pay a very high price for their behaviors- an alcoholic may risk health, job, family, but still keep on drinking. The family may be begging "stop stop" but the alcoholic does not. He/she will only stop drinking when he/she decides to- and reaches that point on their own. It may appear that someone is paying a high emotional cost to stay in a relationship, but only that person knows the gains from it and only that person can determine what to do.

Sometimes I read a post and I think " I could not stand that, I would leave" but then, I would be willing to bet that someone else might think that about my own relationship. Violence and life threatening issues are their own situation. I am not speaking of these. I am talking about the emotional distress expressed by some posts. While sometimes it is tempting to say "run", I think it isn't as helpful to the poster as supporting that poster in understanding the relationship and his/her role in it. Telling a poster what to do- stay or leave- doesn't take into account the whole picture, which we can not see from this board.

It is known that a person is likely to recreate similar issues in a subsequent relationship without this understanding. A person can grow emotionally in or out of a relationship. People on the staying/improving board have made the commitment to do the latter. But they always have a choice and the different boards reflect this.
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« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2016, 08:34:40 AM »

Agreed... .even in the non-BPD world people are prone to repeat their patterns/mistakes if they don't adequately think through the situation.

However many people here change between boards, "I was on the staying board... .now spend more time on the questioning board"... .or from questioning to staying.

So having different boards helps us focus, and helps make our time here more productive.

If someone starts a topic in the Staying board entitled "Should I stay or should I go", then it's helpful for the moderator move the question to the Questioning board.

However, if in a multi-page thread entitled "How would you handle... ." and my response is one of dozens and I say "I understand you want to work it out, but given BPD you'll have to deal with this behavior multiple times for years or decades... .if you understand that's what you're signing up for more power to you... .however, since you're not married yet if it were me I'd break up and move on". 

When that post isn't responded to publicly, but privately from a moderator saying "Hey dude, this is the staying board, you should limit your responses to 100% this is how to make it work... ." I don't think that benefits anyone.
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« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 01:18:12 AM »

Quote from: IsItHerOrIsItMe
.however, since you're not married yet if it were me I'd break up and move on".  

Thats not strictly a run message you are saying how you would react, not telling them what to do. That is your perspective. It becomes a problem when you project your own perspective onto others.

The better response in your example would be, "it might be good if you think closely if this is a healthy relationship for you to continue with, and your reasons for wanting to do so, this situation sounds unhealthy to me".
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 08:06:18 AM »

Every online community has its own culture and guidelines. I think it can take getting used to. I can relate to feeling invalidated, even triggered when I first came on here and was moderated, but I think it helps to not take it personally. Kind of like getting a parking ticket, and you didn't see the sign. Then you know the rules.

I was fortunate to have a T and support group who also didn't support "run" messages and discouraged venting. It isn't comfortable to want support, vent, then have the mirror turned on you- with questions about " what is your role here?" Although I wanted my point of view to be heard, focusing on how someone else needs to change didn't work as well as being asked about how I needed to change, being reminded of my choices.

So, as WW said- asking the person- what is your role in this, what are your choices, can be more helpful than saying what you would do.

Sometimes this didn't feel good. I wanted to be right, to be validated, but it helped, and so I was willing to try it. I think it is good to acknowledge that some of this does not feel comfortable, it can make us even angry at times, but because I felt it was beneficial to consider not saying "run" or promoting venting, these guidelines made sense to me.
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