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Author Topic: doesn't know who he is  (Read 979 times)
Narkiss
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« on: May 03, 2016, 09:35:55 PM »

I have no idea which board to post this on -- or even which board I want to be on. My pwBPD told me he doesn't know who he is. What does that mean? What does it feel like to not know who you are?
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Akita
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 10:17:47 AM »

Not sure what you like or dislike.  Not sure what your style is.  Not sure what you enjoy and what youre doing because someone else enjoys it.  Nothing is yours.  You are connected to nothing.  Not sure if you made choices because someone else thought it was a good idea.  Not sure how to really determine if something is a good idea.  If there were no other people around you would have a hard time deciding what to do.  There is a lot of doubt... .Do I really enjoy watching sports?  Why am I watching this?  Why do I do this?  It's hard to see how other people see you.  It is impossible to tell if someone truly likes you or hates you.  You feel the nothingness and feel that everyone must hate you because you are the nothingness... .why would someone love nothing?  Why would someone even like nothing?  You cant trust.  You just float along and know anything can happen to you because you have nothing to hold on to. 

This is just my take on it.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 06:08:12 PM »

Is there anything to do/say to help them develop a sense of self?
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Akita
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 12:07:01 AM »

That's probably a million dollar question.  My wife's therapist has tasks for her to do.  One is shopping for clothes and picking out stuff SHE likes.  The theory is my wife is using a sister to mimic.  If the sister would also like the clothes item, my wife can't buy it.  I think he is trying to create separation.  My wife and her sister are extremely close.  I don't know what the next task is because she is currently baulking at doing the first task.  She also recently cancelled all her appointments with her therapist.  She is struggling to see the point in therapy.  He was attempting to help her with self harm but he gave that up.  She is feeling very discouraged, so unfortunately I can't help beyond the original task he gave her.

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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 07:37:30 AM »

Not sure what you like or dislike.  Not sure what your style is.  Not sure what you enjoy and what youre doing because someone else enjoys it.  Nothing is yours.  You are connected to nothing.  Not sure if you made choices because someone else thought it was a good idea.  Not sure how to really determine if something is a good idea.  If there were no other people around you would have a hard time deciding what to do.  There is a lot of doubt... .Do I really enjoy watching sports?  Why am I watching this?  Why do I do this?  It's hard to see how other people see you.  It is impossible to tell if someone truly likes you or hates you.  You feel the nothingness and feel that everyone must hate you because you are the nothingness... .why would someone love nothing?  Why would someone even like nothing?  You cant trust.  You just float along and know anything can happen to you because you have nothing to hold on to. 

This is just my take on it.

This is pretty much it like a parrot holding a mirror.

They can say the words, but the ideas dont stick almost as if they just loaned them for a while because someone told them they should.

A lot of it is a lack of continuity, they are impulsively reaction to emotions of the moment rather than an established set of values.

Often acting like a chameleon in an attempt to fit in, or to appear appropriate, even if they miss the mark.

This why the idealization phase is such a big draw to them as they have a fresh bunch of ideas and opinions to borrow.

This copying is as much wishful thinking on their part, they want to adopt and believe in these things, not just fake it. But the feeling doesn't run deep enough and so slips away when they are left to pursue it under their own motivation.

A sense of self comes from personal achievements purely from their own efforts. Hence not overly aiding them to achieve, but only support. Dont over praise or they start doing things to receive praise not for their own pride. The motivation gets skewed
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Narkiss
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 08:59:30 AM »

Yes, over the year i have seen some of that even in an extreme form (he talked about converting to my religion). He once told me he wants to find someone whose life he can become part of. But he writes beautiful and creative stories and poems, and they are good. He has interesting ideas about things and likes the arts -- this predates me.

I guess I have trouble wrapping my head around it. I think when I was younger I tended toward that though. I'd agree with people because I brought up not to contradict and adopt their affect (energized and outgoing around extroverts, etc). I'd fall into things (sometimes wonderful things) instead of deciding what I wanted. So I imagine it must be something like but far far worse and it makes me ill thinking that he is going through life that way.
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Akita
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 09:16:29 AM »

I believe you are right Narkiss, it is a sad existence.  It feels very lonely.  You don't belong to anything. I guess I agree with wave... .support them in their endeavors.  One problem might be choosing something to pursue, and then wondering whose idea it really was.  There is a lot of doubt about motivation.  She wonders if she really liked it or did she like it because someone she liked enjoyed it.  She feels like nothing belongs to her, she cant determine if she originated something or if it came from elsewhere.  Instead of considering things she just impulsively buys.  I definitely need help in this area.  How do you help someone gain their own opinions and tastes?  She is sensitive to how things feel and taste, so she is extremely rigid in what she will eat and where she will eat.  She also considers how clothes feel as she can't stand some fabrics.  Any advice on this issue would be great!
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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 03:36:03 PM »

I think some pwBPD often naturally gravitate towards the fields of theater and sales, as they are very comfortable in adopting roles and instant mirroring and being fleetingly genuinely at one with the role and their audience.

what can we do to help them develop and own their own self?

All I can think of them is ask them how a particular activity  makes them FEEL as opposed to do the like it. It is to easy to say you like something if you think you are supposed to. If however you have to express how it makes you feel it makes a person think deeper about it and own the associated feeling.

That said there is only so much you can do as it is part of the underdeveloped personality.

To add to the instability because their likes and dislikes are often adopted from others, and others fall in and and out of favor, then so too can the adopted interests, creating a ripple affect on their own sense of self.

A sudden shift in their interest is often a heads up that someone else has drifted into their field of interest as they start to mirror that person.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2016, 09:47:31 PM »

Akita: have you thought that something else is going on with her? She sounds like she has sensory issues.

In general, though, how can they even be sure they like/love/want us, if they don't even know what they themselves like/love/want? Is this why they plow through so many people? Mine has told me that he just wants to make other people happy. I always took this as an insincere, smarmy comment, especially given his treatment of me. Maybe he was serious. He wants to please other people because he does not know what will please him.
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mywifecrazy
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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2016, 10:24:15 PM »

Not sure what you like or dislike.  Not sure what your style is.  Not sure what you enjoy and what youre doing because someone else enjoys it.  Nothing is yours.  You are connected to nothing.  Not sure if you made choices because someone else thought it was a good idea.  Not sure how to really determine if something is a good idea.  If there were no other people around you would have a hard time deciding what to do.  There is a lot of doubt... .Do I really enjoy watching sports?  Why am I watching this?  Why do I do this?  It's hard to see how other people see you.  It is impossible to tell if someone truly likes you or hates you.  You feel the nothingness and feel that everyone must hate you because you are the nothingness... .why would someone love nothing?  Why would someone even like nothing?  You cant trust.  You just float along and know anything can happen to you because you have nothing to hold on to. 

This is just my take on it.

I have to be honest that's the best description of a pwBPD's emptiness that I've ever heard. I remember one night out of nowhere my BPDxw saying she feels empty like there's a hole inside of her. I didn't know or understand what she was talking about. Maybe I do a little now. Thank you.
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2016, 02:39:07 AM »

In general, though, how can they even be sure they like/love/want us, if they don't even know what they themselves like/love/want? Is this why they plow through so many people? Mine has told me that he just wants to make other people happy. I always took this as an insincere, smarmy comment, especially given his treatment of me. Maybe he was serious. He wants to please other people because he does not know what will please him.

Because you are meeting their needs of the moment. They want their needs met.

They want to make other people happy so they will like them in return. They want to be liked, they seek validation. This can then loop back into the former point. We often wanted to be liked and validated too when we first met them which made us vulnerable to this cycle.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2016, 09:00:10 AM »

I was so vulnerable to this. When we met, I was so unhappy and empty and lonely. I sensed this hole in him and was willing to fill it but never could. I guess it also explains why he seems to be unable/unwilling to truly separate from his wife, like he has said over and over again. He doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know who he wants to be with. I know this but it's still so hard to step back and emotionally understand. Is there anyway to help him?
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Akita
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2016, 09:32:46 AM »

Mywifecrazy

You're welcome.  I simply asked my wife about it as that was a current therapy topic.  She became visibly upset and cried while telling me about these feelings.

Sensory issues

I just think she is sensitive in more than one way.  Emotionally and physically.  Not sure what else it could mean.  Open to opinions on the matter if anyone would care to share.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2016, 12:07:26 PM »

Akita: Is it hard to be with someone like this?

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Akita
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2016, 12:03:39 AM »

Yes, it's frustrating.
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Akita
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« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2016, 03:00:03 PM »

It's hard when you don't know what will upset them.  She doesn't even know what will trigger her.  One day she can joke about something and the next day she will be hurt if I joke about it.  She easily gets obsessed with things.  For instance, restaurants... .She wants to eat at the same one over and over and over. She orders the same item over and over and over.  I don't think she can see my side of things or understand how she hurts me.there are activities she does : snowboarding and dirt biking, but she's not sure if she likes them or likes them because other people in her family like them.  We are trying to come up with some summer activities we can do together.  We shall see what we come up with.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2016, 04:00:14 PM »

I don't think they can really see our side or really understand. I think their feelings are so overwhelming they start thinking their whole existence depends on it. When I would hear mine begin to say, "I have to be selfish and think of myself," I would feel panicky and my stomach would get tied up in knots, because I knew what was coming -- a broken promise... .And usually the overwhelming feeling of the minute would have very little to do with reality, which would make it even more anxiety-provoking and frustrating and heart-breaking for me, because my life would be turned upside down for something that would exist only in his head.
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Akita
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2016, 04:09:44 PM »

Sometimes I feel that if I really love her I can avoid triggering her.  I can stop hurting her.  I just need to listen more carefully.  Pay attention to body language.  Read more about BPD.  I refuse to do these things.  I feel she is manipulative.  When she cries I ignore.  When she moves away from me I let her go.  She is in therapy... .for now... .she needs to fix herself.  She isn't trying IMHO... .if the treatment doesn't suit her I think she refuses to do it.  She denies this.  Says I don't help her.  Says I don't understand her.  She doesn't understand me or herself.  I'm just not sure what to do.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2016, 04:39:27 PM »

There is no way to avoid triggering. You can tie yourself into knots trying to validate and trying to not to trigger, and you still won't succeed because you cannot know all their triggers and they don't know either. Also, I worry that although validation makes the relationship go smoother, it can also have the effect of validating their selfishness and leading them to think you agree with them.

In December, mine told me he would do something for me. When I asked him about it, he told me that he could not talk about it because he had to eat his breakfast. I told him that he could eat and talk at the same. Apparently this phrase was something his first wife said during a conversation that did not go well. He thought I somehow knew that and said it deliberately to hurt him. How was I supposed to know? Eventually, he realized that I didn't say it on purpose and he forgot about it. I did not. I do not know what I will do either.
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2016, 04:54:14 PM »

Mine told me the same thing... .he didn't know who he was. He also told me he wished he could just be alone. I think he was jealous I could do it so easily. Not sure how to help them, because they they think we are just telling them the answer we want them to have. That's hard... .who really does know who they are totally? We are all learning all the time.
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Akita
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2016, 04:58:27 PM »

I don't know how to help them.  Is yours in therapy?  Are you in therapy?  Any medications?  Mine was on celexa but abruptly stopped.  Now she has to be referred out of her therapist's office because no one there will take on her case.  I wish I could tell you how to help him with his identify, I'm fairly certain only a therapist can pull that rabbit out of a hat.  My wife has talked about different versions of herself.  If she has a change... .job... house... .someone getting married... .She feels like she has lost part of who she thought she was and can't get back to that person.  She can't identify what exactly is gone just that she feels like part is missing.  I guess her identity gets attached to lots of details in her life... .concrete details like houses and possessions.  She clings to objects and hoards them.  It is really hard for her to let them go.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2016, 05:11:38 PM »

I am in therapy. He is not. I asked him last weekend if he would go, and he said yes. There are all kind of complications to that happening. He is leaving/losing a job and will be moving, probably not here. He is not on medication. I was on welbutrin (yes, this relationship has driven me so crazy that I began seeing a therapist and taking anti-depressants). I posted the same question on a site for people with BPD. They said that DBT and other therapies can help manage emotions, but they don't think it can give them an identity, that they are identity-less.

Mine seems to hoard possessions also (I never thought about it like that, that they are part of his identity). He has things in storage lockers all over the country, books, furniture, etc., and has been utterly unwilling to get rid of anything even though the storage is costing a lot of money. 
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2016, 05:14:46 PM »

They say medications don't change anything. Only if they have anxiety, but mine ended up abusing Xanax. he was on an anti depressant and he was the best anyone had ever seen him... .but it was a new drug and then the next thing you knew, he was sick in the hospital with sepsis and they took him off of everything. I don't know what to think of the drugs. Once you start your body gets hooked and you cannot do with out. I would only take them in extreme cases. BPD is more of a disorder that needs cognitive direction. The problem is that they don't trust anyone enough to let them be guided in the right direction.  Not sure hoarding is part of BPD since mine was unattached to anything. I think hoarding is a whole other disorder. The sad part is that they do have personalities, at least I know my husband does. I know what he really likes and doesn't... .but he gets bored too easy, so he was always looking for something else to excite him. Can't be content to just be... .There is a song by 3 Doors Down that my husband used to listen to all the time when I met him... .It's called "Be somebody"... .The words are, " I am just trying to be somebody, I am not trying to be somebody else. This life is mine I am living, don't you know me, I will never let you down"... .I think allot of the songs on that album resinated with him that I now understand. Another one was ... "Behind those eyes you lie"... .Interesting. I think because they lie so much, they lose who they really are and since they can compartmentalize, they just become different with different people. This continues the path of loss of oneself.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2016, 05:19:52 PM »

Yes, I have heard that medication really doesn't work for this one. I went off of the anti-depressants. Although it was working, I wasn't sure what I was actually feeling and started thinking that I have stayed in this relationship longer than I should have because my emotions were smoothed over and needed to really start feeling awful again. And I do.
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2016, 05:24:39 PM »

Sometimes I feel that if I really love her I can avoid triggering her.  I can stop hurting her. 

Minimizing triggering where you can is good, but it is not always possible and it certainly should not be done to the detriment to yourself.

The real damage however is done in the way your instincts cause you to react to them being triggered.

The trigger is the spark but your reaction is the fuel source.

Starving a fire of fuel is the most effective way of containing it.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2016, 05:26:41 PM »

Yes, I have heard that medication really doesn't work for this one. I went off of the anti-depressants. Although it was working, I wasn't sure what I was actually feeling and started thinking that I have stayed in this relationship longer than I should have because my emotions were smoothed over and needed to really start feeling awful again. And I do.

PwBPD are in the high risk category of misuse of meds, either addiction or skipping. Meds may take the edge of some of the symptoms, but that is not enough for the immediate gratification of black and white thinkers
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2016, 06:04:08 PM »

Yes waverider I agree... .mine with celexa upped the dose on her own and then decided it didn't work and quit cold turkey.  Now she is referred to a different clinic as she has been labelled noncompliant and no one will take her case.  She was hurt by this and still is... .very rejected.  Feels like no one really wants to help her, including me.  She had made a friend off Facebook through a DBT group.  They are both borderline.  There was miscommunication silent treatment on both sides and now unfriended.  My wife was devastated.  She really felt connected.  Even though she would stop talking to this other lady she took the complete loss really hard.  She had felt less alone and even understood.  I don't know if anyone has experienced borderlines being friends with borderlines but my wife really enjoyed her friend even though she was often confused or hurt by her friend.
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 06:18:29 PM »

  I don't know if anyone has experienced borderlines being friends with borderlines but my wife really enjoyed her friend even though she was often confused or hurt by her friend.

i dont encourage this, there is a lot of invalidating the invalid creating strong bonds then head on clashes creating extreme opposite reactions.

Unfortunate this prevents many pwBPD  from getting the same stabilizing influence that peer group support provides for us.
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2016, 06:36:42 PM »

Akita: has she ever considered posting on a forum for people with BPD? There are some pretty self-aware border lines out there and they keep the tone supportive
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 06:50:00 PM »

She hasn't found one she likes.  BPD sites are too slow and she feels like they mostly want to talk about themselves and not actually help anyone.  She is on a Facebook DBT group even though she quit DBT.
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