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Narkiss
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2016, 07:13:50 PM »

I've actually posted on the BPD section of Psychforums.com. I've asked borderlines for advice.
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Akita
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2016, 07:24:42 PM »

How did that go?
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« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2016, 07:37:27 PM »

Akita's description definitely helps me understand my BPDh better. Thanks!
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« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2016, 07:39:45 PM »

Hi Daisy

How did it help?  What description?
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Narkiss
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« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2016, 09:57:55 PM »

Akita: In one sense, it went pretty well. I got some serious, straight answers to my questions and several borderlines pm-ed me with advice. You seem pretty spot-on with you explanation of how they lack a sense of self (I can send you what they said, if you'd like). In another, it was really upsetting. The emptiness and hollowness some of them feel made me want to cry. Also, the self-absorption and lack of object constancy. One very nice lady told me that actually it seemed my pwBPD cared about me very much, and if I could put up with the broken promises, the chaos and carrying most of the weight of the relationship, I would be loved more than I was ever loved before -- because that is their talent.
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Akita
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2016, 10:17:40 PM »

Narkiss

I'm sure it was spot on.  It was my BPDw saying it.  I'm glad you got some insight on the other forum.  I may venture over there myself.  We're they reasonable to discuss things with or were they easily offended?
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Narkiss
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2016, 10:20:12 PM »

Pretty reasonable. I offended one of them, but he was right -- what I said sounded stupid and condescending. I think it works best if you describe a situation and ask what's going on/what to do -- or just ask a question.
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Akita
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2016, 12:40:20 PM »

That's great Narkiss.  I dont know if mine would make use of it.  Can they help each other?  My wife had a friend BPD friend from a FB DBT group and that blew up in her face.  I dont know if she would be willing to risk befriending BPD ppl again.
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 03:14:02 PM »

My husband described his feelings as "not being real". He often says that people don't treat him like a "real person". I'm not sure what that means, but he definitely lights up when people cater to him and he's often hurt when people don't treat him like a BFF when he thinks they should. He seeks to be friends with high status people who generally have tons of friends and social engagements, then gets his feelings hurt when they don't reciprocate as much as he thinks they should.

The lack of object constancy leads him to ask me if I even "care about him at all" which used to really offend me before I understood as much.
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 03:30:26 PM »

My wife tells me I dont care about her and states the reasons why.  She will also ask if I love her and want reasons why.  She often tells me I dont love her or I wouldnt treat her how I do.  With all of this happening I dont understand why she stays with me.  All she says is that she loves me.  Unless she hates me, then she says she hates me.  She seems convinced that I married her for money and sex.  She does have a decent job but she isnt a sexual person.  I just dont know how to prove those arent my reasons.  I get really frustrated by the flip flopping of feelings and not being able to communicate how she feels and why.  I dont know if this is related to her not having a strong sense of self or not... .  if you dont know yourself you cant love yourself and if you cant love yourself how can you love someone else?  Confusing... .
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2016, 04:05:27 PM »

My husband described his feelings as "not being real". He often says that people don't treat him like a "real person". I'm not sure what that means, but he definitely lights up when people cater to him and he's often hurt when people don't treat him like a BFF when he thinks they should. He seeks to be friends with high status people who generally have tons of friends and social engagements, then gets his feelings hurt when they don't reciprocate as much as he thinks they should.

The lack of object constancy leads him to ask me if I even "care about him at all" which used to really offend me before I understood as much.

I think they project their own levels of closeness onto others, and when they dont match it causes distress. eg if they are idealizing someone because of some imaginary perception of the other person, then they expect the same back.  This then leads to them feeling like they are not being treated appropriately.
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« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 08:51:30 AM »

I think they project their own levels of closeness onto others, and when they dont match it causes distress. eg if they are idealizing someone because of some imaginary perception of the other person, then they expect the same back.  This then leads to them feeling like they are not being treated appropriately.



Good point, waverider! I've seen a pattern of him getting offended when he has been invited to dinner by the couple he considers to be his "best friends" and then discovering there are other guests there too. And lately the invitations and phone calls are less frequent. Perhaps it's because he doesn't make an effort to socialize much with their friends at parties they throw. He's told me that their group of friends are "full of themselves" and he's not interested in hanging out with them--just with the couple.

I've had a good time with people I've spent time with at these parties, and I wasn't sure what he objects to, other than he has to share his friends with others, but your summation makes sense of it.
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« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 08:58:58 AM »

My BPDw avoids socializing at all.  She gets anxious if we need to go to my family members house for a holiday or birthday.  She always tells me they hate her.  She says they see her as useless.  After a couple hours she is ready to leave.  She gets on her phone a lot to avoid conversation because she says they don't talk about anything she can talk about.  I would like for her to enjoy spending time with my family.  I'm not sure how to help her feel more welcome and comfortable.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2016, 04:57:43 PM »

Akita: Most of the BPDs on these boards are going through some kind of therapy and seem pretty self-aware. They post how they feel and seem pretty supportive of each other -- not very argumentative. I don't know if she'll find friendship exactly, but she'll find people who feel like she does.

Narkiss
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 03:04:54 AM »

My BPDw avoids socializing at all.  She gets anxious if we need to go to my family members house for a holiday or birthday.  She always tells me they hate her.  She says they see her as useless.  After a couple hours she is ready to leave.  She gets on her phone a lot to avoid conversation because she says they don't talk about anything she can talk about.  I would like for her to enjoy spending time with my family.  I'm not sure how to help her feel more welcome and comfortable.

Ditto here, my wife calls her family the whole time, almost like an obsessive pest to be honest. Face to face causes extreme anxiety, and a family function with them altogether is a total no go.

Other social groups are hard, but doable, but the feeling of being seen as the family failure is too much
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Meadowslark
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 09:47:43 AM »

This is a great topic and I think it's very enlightening to nons to see somewhat how pwBPD think and feel.

While my pwBPD isn't a romantic partner, I stumbled upon her writings on this topic (completely by accident, it's its own story, but this is not a diary and is out in public). This is my sister, writing about what her thoughts and feelings are and her lack of identity:

"... .I don't enjoy anything now and there's no evidence that I'll somehow start enjoying things in the future. Now is the only period of time that I am living in... ."

"... .I'm lost in this perpetual cluster(eff) of thoughts. I feel awful about myself, my friends love me, I feel awful about not internalizing that... ."

"... .I know my friends feel just as helpless as I do about all of this... ."

The rest is very difficult to read (and cope with) so I won't post it, but I think this is some very rare insight on her part. She is not in therapy and does not take medication. All of her friends are online, so she too avoids socializing (in person).
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Akita
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2016, 10:39:33 AM »

Mine is never sure of love.  She believes if the person isn't there and isn't thinking about her then that person doesn't love her.  She feels the same.  If you aren't there and she isn't thinking about you she doesn't love you.  Love isn't constant for her.  I tried to tell her that love is always there but she disagrees.  She even talked to her psychologist about it and family members.  They were similar to my opinion but that didn't help her.  In my opinion small problems make her feel looked down on, I try to explain to her other people's motives but she can't see it and continues to be hurt.  I wonder if having a better sense of self would help this.
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Narkiss
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2016, 11:35:59 AM »

Another question I asked was how they can be so self aware yet feel that don't have a sense of self. Isn't self awareness identity? Any thoughts?
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Meadowslark
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2016, 11:49:20 AM »

Another question I asked was how they can be so self aware yet feel that don't have a sense of self. Isn't self awareness identity? Any thoughts?

I think the self-awareness for each pwBPD is dependent upon so many factors, so I can only speak of my sister's case. She has fleeting, very brief moments of lucidity and self-awareness. We have no idea what causes them to come and go. There was a brief moment during Xmastime 2015 where she admitted the BPD diagnosis she got the year before fits her. The lucidity was gone after a few hours. I think the illness has a severe grip on her and she does not struggle to get free (as in, go to therapy, work on herself, take responsibility, etc). The stuff I posted above was written in February of this year.

She would ask me how I knew I liked something. I remember her coming into my room in the apartment we shared years ago and I was listening to music. She asked me how I knew I liked it. I didn't know about BPD at the time, and told her, "I just do?" Truly unable to answer the question. I know now that wasn't the right answer, or even necessarily what she was asking about. With BPD, a lot of times you have to read between the lines.

In response to your question, I don't think self-awareness and a sense of self are necessarily the same thing with BPD. One can be aware of one's lack of self. I am aware that I like Chinese food and electronic music. My sister is aware that she has no idea of her basic likes and dislikes, let alone more esoteric things like hopes, dreams and aspirations.

I think even these brief moments of lucidity are terrifying to someone with BPD. Perhaps they become so acutely aware that something fundamental like a sense of self is missing in them, and that may cause them to dive so deeply into the illness that it was like the lucidity was never there to begin with.

Imagine waking up one day and being adrift in space with no point of reference for anything. I imagine that's what it's like to be self-aware and have BPD. When you aren't aware, it's like you're floating in space, but you're asleep. The lack of surroundings don't bother you - you're not even aware of them.

When you're aware, you're the astronaut who woke up and realized he has no idea where the rocket ship is, or where the crew is. How did you end up here? Where do you go? How do you get home? What is home? I imagine that kind of terror is what having BPD is like.

(Sorry for the ramble!)
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Akita
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2016, 12:38:14 PM »

I believe pwBPD are aware of their feelings.  Like love or hate.  They are aware of those and the feelings are strong so maybe that is why they act on them or cant let them come and go.  Feelings are their anchors so they hold on tight.  My wife gets obsessed with things.  She plays the same games, watches the same shows, and eats the same food.  She hates change.  She holds onto things she is familiar with.  Same as in exact episodes and the food is made the exact same way.  If she goes without familiar food it is very distressing to her.  Sometimes she doesn't even enjoy what she eats but it is familiar so she craves it for the familiarity.  She just latches on to certain things and doesn't branch out.  She buys clothes her sister would like or approve of.  She knows she does all this, but that doesn't mean she can stop or even wants to stop.  She feels like an alien.  She hates looking in people's eyes because they may see her emptiness or see that something is wrong with her.  She can't just decide that she is empty so she should fill herself up.  How would she do that?  Randomly choose to like things?  How do you know you like something?  How does liking something make you feel like a complete person?  How do you just decide how you feel about things?  If you have no conviction how do you suddenly get conviction?  She experiences things and the experiences create feelings and then she responds to the feelings.  Before hand she may have had no idea how she would feel about it.  She has even said to me she won't know if she will like something until it happens.  She does however enjoy activities that create an intense feeling like amusement parks and doing illegal activities.  I just don't know how this can create a sense of identity.  She was convinced by 4 people that she has BPD though it was a struggle.  She has always felt broken.  Is this her identity?  She is aware of many problems, but she can't get a hold of them.  She wants to stop cutting but she can't fight the urge.  Maybe she clings to the cutting because she is familiar with it and that feels like apart of her?  She wanted to be sure of the diagnosis so she could feel like she wasn't alone but she also didn't want to be in the wrong group.  She dislikes what she reads online about BPD so I think she was hoping someone would change to a different diagnosis, they did not and she has accepted it as far as I know.   
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Narkiss
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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2016, 01:22:30 PM »

It sounds like a terrible existence. i do not know how to wrap my head around this.

Here is the million dollar question for me: if they do not know what they like, how do they know whom they love or want to be with?
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Meadowslark
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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2016, 01:39:13 PM »

It sounds like a terrible existence. i do not know how to wrap my head around this.

Here is the million dollar question for me: if they do not know what they like, how do they know whom they love or want to be with?

It's a very terrible existence. My sister is a writer and her ability to exude and explain her misery in writing is incredible. I fully believe she is suffering 24/7.

if they do not know what they like, how do they know whom they love or want to be with? I don't have the million dollar answer, but I do have the $500k theory - they don't.

Much of their existence happens in a reality that is not our own - they have internal expectations that don't match with reality, perceptions of things that may or may not even be happening, reactions that bewilder us Nons. It's the mental gymnastics of disordered thinking, and pwBPD tend to be Olympians.

They may perceive you as an answer to their problems, an escape from their trauma, you could be a meal ticket or anything else. I'm positive that they are capable of loving someone else, perhaps even more deeply than a Non, but they are unable to keep it stable. Their disordered thinking and impulsive actions are driven by inner turmoil the likes of which many of us can't even comprehend. We're split from Saint to Sinner at a breakneck speed, we go from "love of their life" to "axe-murdering puppy-kicker" and it seems as though the love never existed.

I truly believe that when they say they want to be with you or love you, that there is some kernel of truth to it. But again, take everything with a grain of salt - it all depends on the pwBPD.

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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2016, 02:29:45 PM »

A lifetime of this means a lifetime of annoying everyone around them. So if everyone always ultimately gets annoyed at them how can they ever feel like they are worth anything?

After all facades may fool others for a while, but to that individual it is no more than wishful thinking. That is all they have to hang on to though. So they are effectively trying to force these false realities onto themselves as that is all they have.

Stripping these false realities and dysfunctional coping mechanisms away can create a collapse. Hence why therapy has to be tailored specifically for BPD, and why it often fails as they suffer anxiety breakdowns following treatments.
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2016, 03:31:18 PM »

I agree waverider.  My wife often tells me she feels worthless.  She also talks about being annoying and everyone hating her.  She isolates herself socially so she won't have to worry about rejection.  The tiny things speak the truth to her.  She looks for proof of people caring or not, she remembers comments people make and adds her own meaning to it because that is how whatever happened made her feel.

We have had the discussion about why she stays with me when I cause her such pain.  She says she feels connected to me.  I'm the one.  She understands that she is fragile and that I have a hard time not upsetting her.  She is broken but I can mend her soul.  I'm her anchor.  She tells me her hell was here before I came and it will remain if I go.  I just ignite the underlying feelings that are always there swirling.  When she feels love for me it is like she is part of me she says.  When she feels hate she wants me gone and doesn't know why she married me.  This is hard on both of us.  As far as her likes and dislikes go... .she is patterned after her siblings.  She knows this.  She fears that nothing belongs to her.  If she lost her memory of her family and was in an abandoned city I don't think she would know what to do with herself... .how to amuse herself... .what to eat... .she looks to her family for approval and does what they do.  She doesn't know how to tell if she actually enjoyed something, or if she enjoyed it because people she cares about enjoyed it.  She does like intense things such as amusement parks and illegal activities.  Her family shares this though so who knows.  She hates when her perception is challenged.  If something hurt her then it was a hurtful event and there is no explaining motives to change her mind.  She doesn't even know what will hurt her though, one day it may be fine and the next day she can't believe you did that.  It is all really confusing to everyone.  She hates change.  She eats the same foods made the same way.  She watches the same shows even repeats of episodes.  She plays the same games.  She gets comfort from the sameness.  She saw a lot of her family in me.  Maybe that was the attraction.  I like and do the same type of things her family does.  They are in construction and so am I.  I like sports so do they.  I am very casual and so are they.  Aside from her parents they are not overly religious and neither am I.  This maybe the connection she felt for me.  She has also told me I am kind and calm.  She was drawn to my calmness.  I believe she does love me.  Yes, I cause hate to surface but underneath it I think she does love me.
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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2016, 02:21:23 AM »

A pwBPD can hate to love

And love to hate

Dependency vs vulnerability

Thats part of being an emotion junkie...
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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2016, 12:06:29 PM »



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