Alienation and using the kids

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi, I have just been talking with my sister, who is the "normal" one in an acrimonious split with uBPDh.  As in all these cases, there is a LOT of crap going on, but what has sparked my post today was what she has just related to me.  As she was speaking to me she was dropping off D9 for a visit with her father.  He had emailed to her, when arranging the meetup that  Aussiesisters sister should just send D9 unaccompanied to the meeting point.  Of course my sister was not having any of that.  Bpd dad met his daughter in public, near a train station and was shouting and raising his finger at my sister.  I told her to take a photo next time.  This is not the first time this has happened, although other meetings were in less public places.  My sister has insisted that pickups happen in public places because of this.  Apparently uBPD dad can no longer control himself enough even in public.  My sister is reluctantly putting up boundaries to protect herself from his behaviour, but is still reluctant to restrict any access to the kids he damands.  In the 12 months they have been separated (he was evicted by the police with a restraining order) he has only had sporadic contact, although living very nearby.  He has had no overnights., the children see him on an ad hoc basis, whenever it suits him, and given the nature of his illness, it takes  very little for him to dysregulate and call off a planned trip  He  also refused to pay any child support,   He has taken to "borrowing" money from his S16, who is fairly emeshed with Dad and resentful of his mother. My sister has no formal Parentling Agreement with uBPDh, he has stonewalled any attempt for her to formalise contact. It seems to me that uBPD dad is consistently using parental alienation against my sister.  We live in Australia, so the court system is quite different, but what is peoples experience in the justice system taking Parental Alienation into acoount when determining access and visitation.  My sister has just started application to go to court for a judgement.  She knows that the required mediation pre court hearing is most likely to fail, as all other mediation attempts have, and that a judge will make the final call.

Although uBPD dad is subject to a restraining order it is only in regard to my sister, she does not believe the kids are at risk, physically,.  The mental games are certainly screwing with their minds though!

[AnAussieSister]

Hi, I have just been talking with my sister, who is the "normal" one in an acrimonious split with uBPDh.  As in all these cases, there is a LOT of crap going on, but what has sparked my post today was what she has just related to me.  As she was speaking to me she was dropping off D9 for a visit with her father.  He had emailed to her, when arranging the meetup that  Aussiesisters sister should just send D9 unaccompanied to the meeting point.  Of course my sister was not having any of that.  Bpd dad met his daughter in public, near a train station and was shouting and raising his finger at my sister.  I told her to take a photo next time.  This is not the first time this has happened, although other meetings were in less public places.  My sister has insisted that pickups happen in public places because of this.  Apparently uBPD dad can no longer control himself enough even in public.  My sister is reluctantly putting up boundaries to protect herself from his behaviour, but is still reluctant to restrict any access to the kids he damands.  In the 12 months they have been separated (he was evicted by the police with a restraining order) he has only had sporadic contact, although living very nearby.  He has had no overnights., the children see him on an ad hoc basis, whenever it suits him, and given the nature of his illness, it takes  very little for him to dysregulate and call off a planned trip  He  also refused to pay any child support,   He has taken to "borrowing" money from his S16, who is fairly emeshed with Dad and resentful of his mother. My sister has no formal Parentling Agreement with uBPDh, he has stonewalled any attempt for her to formalise contact. It seems to me that uBPD dad is consistently using parental alienation against my sister.  We live in Australia, so the court system is quite different, but what is peoples experience in the justice system taking Parental Alienation into acoount when determining access and visitation.  My sister has just started application to go to court for a judgement.  She knows that the required mediation pre court hearing is most likely to fail, as all other mediation attempts have, and that a judge will make the final call.

Although uBPD dad is subject to a restraining order it is only in regard to my sister, she does not believe the kids are at risk, physically,.  The mental games are certainly screwing with their minds though!

[livednlearned]

Hi AnAussieSister,

Welcome to the site  

And sorry for what brings you here.

Although uBPD dad is subject to a restraining order it is only in regard to my sister, she does not believe the kids are at risk, physically,.  The mental games are certainly screwing with their minds though!

One thing many of us learn over the span of our healing is that abuse is abuse, whether it's physical or emotional or psychological. My ex did not hit S14 and even so the after effects of the verbal and psychological abuse have been fairly extensive.

If there is parental alienation involved, then the mind games will be very impactful because they are so inverted and tricky to untangle.

If your sister does not believe the kids are risk, it is likely that she is still somewhat in the fog about what abuse is and how it works.

Encourage her to read Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison, Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids, and anything that Dr. Craig Childress has written about parental alienation on his blog. If she is still in shock and exhausted by the divorce, you may be in a better position to read and share with her what you learn, although it's always best for the parent to get a handle on things directly.

What is S16 resentful about? Can he articulate it directly? It's always amazing to me when a child sides with the abusive parent. Borrowing money from your kid?   And then getting angry at the parent who doesn't borrow money.

Your sister probably spent much of the marriage trying to appease him, and now she is asserting boundaries. People with BPD don't have good boundaries, they tend to steamroll over people, so your sister has had to learn the difficult way that she has to put these boundaries in place otherwise there will be none. And her ex doesn't like it, it's new, and he's testing them to see if they are sturdy. It could be mini extinction bursts upon discovering these new boundaries. It's really important that she does not back down at this point, otherwise the next time she tries, he will escalate more quickly and perhaps with just as much if not more strength.

Parental alienation was moderate in my case, although we had a defining incident that snapped me in a good way and from that point on, I turned my focus away from him and on myself, and developed what I call my titanium backbone. Even though he tested it and tested it and tested it and things were quite ugly for a while, I know deep down it created a foundation of respect that helped me deal with the parental alienation. S14 recognized I was coming from a much stronger place and was doing things to protect myself. I was always empathetic toward him and learned how to validate his feelings. If he even so much as showed signs that he was parroting his father, I would ask him, ":)o you feel that way?" "What happened to make you feel this way?" And always left the question hanging between us with no lecturing from me. I wanted him to know that I was more interested in what he genuinely felt, and trusted him to have independent viewpoints separate from his dad, than putting myself in the line of fire with my own take on things.

If he claimed I had done any of the preposterous things his dad claimed I had done, I would simply ask, "Is that something you believe? Can you articulate in your own words what happened to make you feel this way?"

Hard, long uphill work. Messy. Sad.

I can't speak highly enough of the titanium backbone   It changes the whole dynamic. Her son is learning to treat her the way his dad treated her. He is not going to respect her until she respects herself. Learning to do this in a way that builds strength -- real emotional and resilient strength -- is hard work. It has to be felt and it helps to learn skills and read what's happening psychologically and emotionally to find a clear path through the clutter.

The battle for the hearts and minds of our kids takes place in court, and it also takes place in our words and actions. In order to convince others that we are worthy, we have to believe it first.

[bus boy]

Hi AnAussieSister,

  Sorry to hear of your sisters hard ship. It sounds so much like my story, it's scary. My ex BPD wife gives my sister the finger every time they meet. It's very childish. I have court order access. She is dasically doing everything your sisters ex is doing. Totally impossible during mediation, alienating s9 from me and telling family court I'm not there for s9. In your story the "normal" person has custody, in my story the BPD has custody. I dealing with the BPD in our stories the result seems to be the same. Your sister is doing her best to deal with a BPD and being blamed for things she's not doing. I'm doing my best and there for s9 as any good parent and always eager to be involved in his life, and being denied and blamed for things I'm not doing. It's a hard go. I feel for her. Good luck and god bless.

[AnAussieSister]

Thank you Livednlearned,  your advice about the best way to handle speaking with S16 is just what I think I was looking for.  My sister is relying on my titanium backbone right now, while she develops hers, she is just about through the FOG I believe, but can still duck back into the clouds at times .  Its been a long long struggle to get her to this point, and theres a way to go, and I am very concerned for the childrens sake that they are still experiencing this emotional abuse, and that my sister does not yet fully appreciate how much it must be affecting them.  However I know I can rely on BPD dad to keep escalating his horrendous behaviours as she sets more boundaries and enforces them and that his continued and increasingly poor behaviour will allow sister to keep seeing the light. 

S16 is being used by his father to be middle man in the battle, as he sees it, between Mum and Dad.  My sister initiated LC about 3 months ago, and will only commuicate  with him by email about the children or the actual separation proceedings.  UBPD still has access to all the childrens mobile phones, and will in particular use S16s phone to try and speak with my sister.  Failing that he will use S16 to pass messages or abuse etc.  S16 has recently started seeing a therapist, and while its early days,  I hope it will help him.  S16 sees his dad far more than the younger children.  He will meet dad regularly and we are not sure how much, as he is quite independent and dad lives nearby.  UBPD has used this and S16s underlying insecurities and confusions about the split to make him an ally.  Dad has no compuction in telling son that everything is his mothers fault, that mum is now trying to screw every penny out of this split she can and generally heaping blame where it shouldnt belong.  My sister is trying desperately to keep her son out of the battle front, he is looking for answers to why this is happening, so he only hears one side and that is what he believes.  Recently he began threatening to leave home, and uBPD jumped on that and used it against my sister.  S16 cant move in with his dad, he lives in some sort of room above a pub/bar, we believe (he wont tell anyone his address) but uBPD is using that  to threaten my sister into making inappropriate or hasty decisions about property settlement.   

I dont know what I should advise my sister to do about the type of behaviour she experienced yesterday with D9s pick up.  I feel that she has every right to just veto visits if this is going to happen consistently.  And given that there are no court orders or any arrangements that would be easy.  He wont take my sister to court to enforce anything, he is too stingy to pay and too weak.  However my sister still hopes that the children can have a meaningful relationship with their dad.  I think he is too dangerous for them to be with except under supervision.  Who is right?  I dont know.

You know time is the other enemy here, my sister is jusy busy!  Three kids on her own, a very full on job, dog house , etc etc and then this stuff on top.  I keep putting information in front of her, but often she just doesnt have the time or the strength to deal with it.  As i said, she is just coming out of the FOG and is still tired and depressed quite often.  I also think she has stuck her head right past her shoulders into the sand for a long time and it feels a bit safer there, its what shes used to.  So when I hit her with a bit of reality the head very often goes back to the sand.  Im learning on the job, when to push and when to back off.  I come here lots and have learned so much, and my aim is to get my sister on as a member, but... .

[livednlearned]

The fact that uBPD ex won't enforce anything in court and is too broke reflects how weak he truly is, which, from our perspective, means a lot can be mitigated through skills. Having said that, court's provide the ultimate authority by providing boundaries and can help mitigate the effects of being the target all the time.

Once your sister understands her own worth and self-respect, it will make it psychologically much easier to decide when to cancel visits. In the first few years, I would ask my L, and then eventually internalized her advice and began to realize ex was all bark and any bites could be protected with a bit of armor 

Your sister probably does feel overwhelmed and depressed. It sounds like you are very supportive and insightful, and are being thoughtful in how you provide that support. If she feels judged and shamed, she will likely become more depressed and might even avoid confiding in you about what she's going through. High conflict people are not just difficult people, they are the most difficult. Her exhaustion and depression is warranted, although both can also be reversed, thankfully.

About S16: I would think one thing she can do in that situation is to enforce her boundary repeatedly. Something like: Unless his dad can speak to her with respect, S16 need not relay any messages. Most kids hate being in the middle. Kids who are enmeshed are often being treated like adults in inappropriate ways. So in a sense your sister has to treat S16 the way she would her ex, by asserting a boundary and only rewarding positive engagement. Depending on their relationship, your sister might ask S16 how he feels about the message, rather than answering or ignoring it. "I would feel bad if asked to relay a message like that. Are you ok with this?" When my son told me ":)ad said you cheated on him." I just said, ":)id it make you feel bad that he said that?" Always, the focus was on how what his dad said made him feel. It's a way to try and build trust one small word at a time. If we defend the allegations, we give power to them. And often, the BPD parent has anticipated a defensive response, and gotten there a step ahead of us, so that our kids already expect a defensive response. "Your mom will say no because she's xyz."

People with BPD get rid of difficult feelings like hot potatoes, and the lack of accountability for emotions gets tossed around to the weakest person. Your sister's ex is tossing his negative feelings to S16 who does not have the skills nor the emotional strength to see what his dad is doing.

You can help by learning how all of this works.