Can Ex "Make" S11 Asperger's

[scraps66]

Over the last five years our S11 has gone through several different evaluations to assess his behavior and a diagnosis in support of his IEP.  First he was diagnosed ODD, ex didn't "like" this diagnosis so we had school pay for a second evaluation at a local well-known hospital and he was diagnosed autistic/disruptive behavior disorder, then Asperger's, "312.9 Unspecified Disruptive, Impulse-Control, and Conduct Disorder, R/O Anxiety Disorder NOS, (using the revised DSM definition)" and now through his second evaluation for his IEP, autistic.

The 312.9 diagnosis was consistent over two years of Wraparound Services and through three re-evaluation cycles of six months.  I feel this to be accurate if I consider his behavior both at home and at school.  This diagnosis accounts for his environment and behavior outside of school.  This is also a service, Wraparound, that ex did not participate in.  Did not take advantage of the services. 

Ex had herself come up with the Asperger's diagnosis and has held onto this diagnosis, consistently through all of this.  If I now go back, ex has always been saying how "bright" S11 is, and has almost to obsession gotten him involved in reading, voraciously.  She has also fought to involve S11 in music, enrolling him in of all instruments, viola.  These are also activities that she has excluded me from, not providing contact info for the viola instructor and pressuring S11 to read incessantly even when with me.

Alienation has been happening for 10 years.  My experience with S11 is more on the defiant side.  All school year I have struggled to just get him to bring his homework home.  He resists even though he knows I can check his teachers' homepages to confirm whether he has homework or not. Other constants, "S11, get yourself a jacket for school... .I don't need a jacket... .S11, GET YOURSELF a jacket!"  Then he goes outside to check the weather, comes back inside and states he doesn't need a jacket.  It's 45 degrees out.  I see him as more defiant than autistic.

On many occasions ex has fabricated situations to meet her needs or exonerate herself from any responsibility for her behavior as it influences our children.  Some of the diagnoses that have been applied have a criteria related to traumatic events such as divorce - high conflict divorces.  ODD is one of them and I feel it, along with the DSM diagnosis, is the most accurate for S11.

I now notice that ex has always been obsessed with how "intelligent" S11 is doing things like lobbying to get him in the gifted program even before he entered the public school system.  Getting him into these advanced activities such as reading and viola.  Incidentally, S11 has no interest in having the viola lessons when with me, has little interest in the food I cook even though they are the foods he eats while with ex, just prepared by someone different, not ex or her boyfriend, and does not participate in activities like he does at his mothers', like riding his bike.  I am fearing that he has become his mother's agent.

So, to support the latest IEP re-evaluation we were both given a parental input form to fill out and provide to the school psychologist.  The form is e-mailed to both of us.  I fill mine out as accurately as I can and send it back.  A few days later the psych sends the report back and she has him as autistic.  OK, I can go along, but I don't like the opportunity that this provides ex -she's "right."  A few days go by and ex responds to the psych saying she didn't get the parental input form and to send her a copy so she can complete, and then update the report.  The summary of my parental input info matched that of S11's emotional support teacher.  So now ex has seen the results of the report, but did not contribute.

I'm just now putting this all together.  It almost seems to me that ex is trying to make S11 look as if he is Asperger's rather than an of the other, less attractive diagnoses.  I know she does a lot of reading on the subject and it goes along with her own way of dealing with things, public/private personae makeup. 

I do have paranoid tendencies as unearthed by my psychological evaluation.  But more often than not my hypotheses about ex are proven to be accurate.

I'm not sure about how to proceed, rather than documenting in an e-mail, I may talk with the psych or the director of pupil services.  To date I have not provided the Wraparound Services reports for school's use but think this may be a good time so they can get the full picture.

Advice, suggestions, feedback?   

 

[Notwendy]

You may be correct in your suspicions, as from what is known about Asperger's is that these kids are driven by their own interests, the parent doesn't decide them. Kids with AS can pursue their special interests obsessively.

However, there is something to consider very carefully before deciding to challenge your ex- his mother. In the school system, different "labels" for kids receive different categories for services. In many schools, autism spectrum is addressed differently than behavioral problems alone, usually with more understanding than a kid who is just seen as a kid with bad behaviors. While you may have issues with your wife, it is possible that she has obtained the services in school that help him the most.

And, he could indeed have AS as kids can behave differently with different people. If alienation has been going on, and he is more stressed with you, he could be more oppositional with you.



OK, I can go along, but I don't like the opportunity that this provides ex -she's "right."



This isn't about your ex but what is best for your kid. Without this label, he may loose some school services and if he indeed has AS this might be detrimental to him.

It is important that you answer the questions that the school sends to you- honestly and accurately- how you see your son. Then let them determine the label, but if it is AS, I don't know if it would benefit him for you to challenge that. They also observe him in school too and so have input from that when making their decision.

IMHO, the label is what is used to determine help for your son in school. The rest of the time, he is really, just your kid. Rather than focus on the label, or how much his mother influenced it or not, focus on the behaviors. Most people respond to behavioral management- and that is something you can gain information on.  But the label might really be the best one for him to get the help he needs in school.

[Sunfl0wer]

The DSM has changed.  The recent one does not include Asperger's.  So that possibly adds some confusion for many folks.  Parents who have had a diagnosis for their child of having Asperger's no longer qualify under new DSM.  This is rediculous.  So some now qualify as simply autistic or nothing.  Parents in the ASD community are generally not pleased about this and many see it as a way to keep their children from receiving services they need.  ASD is really not about a checklist of traits but more about the way a brain is wired and processes things differently.  Many persons who considered themselves to have Aspergers still use this label and have not adapted to latest DSM.  (My mind is not perfect pls do research to ensure I am accurate, I have holes in some memory, yet still wanted to respond)

So to answer your question, no, she cannot 'make' someone autistic.  She cannot change his neurology to that degree, however, he may be encouraged to develop more autistic like traits vs social ones.  She could be victimizing him or infantilizing him because of it.

Alienation has been happening for 10 years.  My experience with S11 is more on the defiant side.  All school year I have struggled to just get him to bring his homework home.  He resists even though he knows I can check his teachers' homepages to confirm whether he has homework or not. Other constants, "S11, get yourself a jacket for school... .I don't need a jacket... .S11, GET YOURSELF a jacket!"  Then he goes outside to check the weather, comes back inside and states he doesn't need a jacket.  It's 45 degrees out.  I see him as more defiant than autistic.

It IS possible that this could be his ASD!  This is actually an excellent example of what an ASD kid may do that could be misunderstood as a behavior issue. Many with ASD also have SPD (sensory processing dysfunction/AKA sensory integration disorder). Your son may literally have an issue perceiving the weather and temperature on a neurological level.  This is not a behavioral issue if this is the case.  (Which is not to say both cannot be at play, typically though a child with ASD is not being socially clever to try to prove you wrong with a fabrication of reality.  They are also not wired well to lie and manipulate like other more socially savvy peers.  They are more likely to be brutally honest.)

I'm just now putting this all together.  It almost seems to me that ex is trying to make S11 look as if he is Asperger's rather than an of the other, less attractive diagnoses.  I know she does a lot of reading on the subject and it goes along with her own way of dealing with things, public/private personae makeup.

 

If he is Aspergers, she very well could be correct yet cannot get that diagnosis as I believe it now doesnt exist in current DSM.  Many parents of Aspergers kids share this frustration of either not having the label, or now calling the kid autistic.

Please use this diagnosis and join your local CARD.  They will be an excellent informational resource. Attend the parent support groups and all informational workshops and groups they offer.  You will soon learn for yourself what is going on with your son.

Tbh, it sounds like it is a child with ASD AND mom trying to alienate and parting her dysfunctional influence on things.

[scraps66]

PS S11 has taken to lying and manipulating situations.  Even when dead pan caught in his lie, he continues.  So this is one of the parts that worries me that he falls outside of ASD. 

I will ketchup later after reading more.

[Notwendy]

With school services, the category one is put in determines the level of services. Children on the autism spectrum may get an IEP, while other behavioral issues a 504. The difference may be crucial for a child.

Many parents don't like labels, but it is the label that may make the difference between receiving services or a kid getting punished in school for behaviors that may not have much control over.

Before you challenge the autism label, become familiar with your child's needs and the services he gets in school. He may need them and you would not want to interfere if he doesn't.

[Sunfl0wer]

PS S11 has taken to lying and manipulating situations.  Even when dead pan caught in his lie, he continues.  So this is one of the parts that worries me that he falls outside of ASD. 

I will ketchup later after reading more.

Humm, well it depends on what you mean by lying. 

Share some examples when you have a chance.  This would be rare for a young ASD to intentionally lie, however, they can get fixated on a non truth and believe it.  Mom may have implanted truths in him that he defends or he could also have some irrational thoughts that he feels are true.  This gets trickier to sort out, but it is possible.

I cannot say it enough: join your local CARD! 

[Notwendy]

Please be careful to make this about the child, not between you and mom ,even if letting go of it means letting her be right.

The kid either has AS or not, but the school deals with behaviors. Kids with many different issues can have similar behavior problems and so the schools mostly deal with learning and behaviors. If his "label" is getting him the help he needs in school, then it is more about that than the label.

Schools NEED a label to attain services for a child. It's how the law works. Take away the label, and he could lose the help he gets in school. Considering his behavioral issues and the emotional aspect of the conflict with his mother, he probably needs what he is getting. If he is in a routine with counselors, teaches, etc, then this may be one stable influence in his life. It may be better for HIM, to just leave the label alone.

Being right and proving your ex wrong may give you some satisfaction, but at what price? The help your child is getting in school? Please consider this. It may be better for him to let your ex be "right" at least for now.

[Sunfl0wer]

My favorite resource on all things sensory:

www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/

Browse around, check the links on the left.  While the site is not so user friendly, the info is valuable.  Go to the checklist for your aged child.  Learn about difference of 'sensory seeking' behaviors vs 'sensory defensive' vs 'mixed.'

[Sunfl0wer]

I am sure most parents who do in fact have a child who has some form of ASD all ho through a stage of disbelief, blame, and grief prior to acceptance.  This must be normal and part of the process.  It must be even more confusing to add an ex who is complicating matters, likely exploiting a disability, or further infantilizing.  I imagine this makes the situation disorienting and leave a parent uncertain who to trust.

Please take your time processing and continue asking questions.  You are asking excellent questions.  Many persons with Aspergers go undiagnosed even in late life, because no one asked the right questions.  Many parents who take their kid to get diagnosed leave finding out they too may have an ASD.  My point: This is not always an easy diagnosis for the professionals to sort out.

We are here to support you no matter what diagnosis is correct.

[ForeverDad]

I am sure your Ex is having an immense impact on your son.  I recall when my son was just 2 to 3 years old and he often would look away and not look at me.  He was also slow to start talking and his speech was behind where I thought he should be.  I even asked the pediatrician whether he could be mildly autistic.  However I also knew his mother was ranting and raging, making rules and dictates according to her moods of the moment so I figured she was the biggest impact on him.

Getting schoolwork done has always been a challenge.  Get him to work on one class then he missed work in another class.  In winter he preferred to wear a hoodie jacket than a new really nice winter coat.  (I bought the flexible kind with a removable inner liner and hood.)

Has my son been impacted negatively in his entire childhood?  Yes, how could 10-12 years of conflict not have an impact?  This year he been flirting with Fs in a class or two, either not doing the assignments or not completing them.  Get one up and another drops.  Only so much I can do about it.  Fortunately his mother wasn't able to undermine our relationship (very much) but not for lack of trying.

[Ulysses]

Scraps, I agree with the comments in this discussion.  Your son will only get services if he has a label.  Unless you send him to private school.

My S is probably somewhere on the spectrum, according to a psychologist who worked with him when he was younger.  My exH reaction to the psychologist was to yell, "NO!"  The psychologist told us to address the behaviors and symptoms, and not worry about the label.  Our S is in private school because he could not get services in the public school.  Be careful about your school - some schools put kids who are diagnosed ASD in with kids who have emotional behavior disorders.  This is not fair to the kids with ASD.

There are often other things that go along with ASD - anxiety (which could account for difficult behavior), ADHD, self-esteem issues.  I have experienced lying with my S, and I've read lying and ASD don't go together, but I would have to disagree.  He started lying, I feel, when the alienation started.  It's not personal toward me, it's a much deeper issue.

What you describe, I have also experienced with my S.  I don't know if it's Asperger's.  Sometimes it's like PDD-NOS.  There is a lack of executive functioning skills, although that is no uncommon in boys (and kids) that age.

Viola seems esoteric, I totally agree.  Three positives:  1) learning an instrument teaches a child executive functioning skills, and the other behavior skills that are often addressed in IEPs; 2) music teachers often understand kids with these traits in a way that lends itself to positive growth for the child; 3) there are frequently viola scholarships at the college level, should he continue.

A school psychologist should be able to talk to you about your son from an ecological/environmental perspective - e.g. what he needs in his environment to succeed.

My S is the same about the jacket.  I would recommend reading Tony Attwood, and Temple Grandin. 

You wouldn't know my S is necessarily on the spectrum, and in fact he's never been officially diagnosed.  He shows traits.  I think you would think my S is a great kid, but sometimes a little different, and sometimes very challenging.  I personally think the chaos that comes from my exH, and the unwillingness/inability to plan ahead, how he lets him sit online all day, not exercise, not socialize except online, is a detriment to my S.  But I can only control what goes on in my house, and set my own example. 

I'm sorry about the alienation.  I think I experience that, as well.  It is really hard, which seems like the understatement of the year.  It isn't right that your ex won't give you contact information for the viola teacher.  She could probably give you valuable feedback on your son.  You should have her information regardless. 

Can you take your S to a therapist?  Sometimes that helps a relationship

[david]

Just a thought. If you think he needs a therapist for help and your ex fights everything you do then maybe you can present it as something your son and you need together. I don't think ex can do many things to stop that and it will keep her from sabotaging your input. The therapist will need to see the both of you in order to better understand the dynamics.

[scraps66]

Again courtesy of BPD I have backed off.  I had again jumped to a conclusion based on something ex asked for only to find out what I thought she was asking for was not what she was asking for. 

This isn't about your ex but what is best for your kid. Without this label, he may loose some school services and if he indeed has AS this might be detrimental to him.

This is what I've been trying to do.  There is more background to the story.  Our first diagnosis from school was for ODD.  This put S110 in the "ED" category which commands the highest level of services.  Ex did not "like" this label so she demanded school pay for a second evaluation.  This second evaluation consumed nearly 12 months of time and effort to arrive at a diagnosis of, "disruptive behavior disorder."  No change to the IEP category.  Ex was hoping to get him diagnosed ADD so he would fall into the "OHI" Other Health Issue category - a more agreeable category if you are a parent that needs to identify yourself through your children. 

So I'm merely trying to get the correct diagnosis and stop some thing bad that she might be trying to do.

Share some examples when you have a chance.  This would be rare for a young ASD to intentionally lie, however, they can get fixated on a non truth and believe it.  Mom may have implanted truths in him that he defends or he could also have some irrational thoughts that he feels are true.  This gets trickier to sort out, but it is possible.

I cannot say it enough: join your local CARD! 

I knew nothing about CARD.  It is obvious over the years that I have needed some outlet with people that share similar experiences.

The lying had started with many of the incidents at school.  Basically something happens and S11s rendition of what happened would consistently not match the story recanted from other kids, teachers, aids, etc.

One day it was demonstrated for me point blank.  We were at a football clinic for S8.  We are familiar with some of the coaches because they also coach wrestling.  Previous year S11 and S8 both wrestled.  S11 typically ends up playing with much younger children but he can be rough. He just so happened to start getting rough with this one coaches 4 yr old son.  I see the coach walking over and I follow.  The coach points his finger at S11 and says something.  I walk by the coach after he leaves and say what's going on.  He mumbles something to me.  I then walk up to S11, ask what happened, he couldn't describe what happened, I ask what did Coach X say to you, "He said if you do that again you won't like what I'm going to do to you."  I said, "Oh, well let's go talk to Coach X about that."  We walk over, I ask if we could talk to the coach, I turn to S11 and say, "Go ahead S11, tell me what he said to you," he repeated exactly what he had told me.  The coach looked at me a smirked, and said that was at all what he said that he said, "How would you like it if that was done to you?"  I didn't doubt it as this has been repeated many times. 

My favorite resource on all things sensory:

www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/

Browse around, check the links on the left.  While the site is not so user friendly, the info is valuable.  Go to the checklist for your aged child.  Learn about difference of 'sensory seeking' behaviors vs 'sensory defensive' vs 'mixed.'

I had begun to think that there was a sensory component to S11s awhile back.  It all began with the game of tag.  Notoriously games of tag has started leading to altercations.  Basically S11 would get tagged and he would say that he was being "hit."  This is also an area where S11 couldn't accurately recollect what actually had happened.  He said he was hit when in fact he was just touched or something very mild.  On the other hand S11 could in fact hit another child and only recollect that he pushed or touched, not hit.

Also he has issues with some of his clothes, the way they fit... .tags on clothing.

   

[Sunfl0wer]

It is not uncommon for a child with ASD to be placed in ED services until the ASD diagnosis eventually comes to light.  It is common that when an ASD child's special needs are not met, they actually either appear ED or become symptomatic and frustrated emotionally and then actually do also meet ED criteria.  Take for example an ASD child has sensory needs that are not being addressed and is easily bothered by the noise and lights in the classroom.  That child may have meltdowns at additional pressures of writing assignments and appear to be a primarily behavioral issue due to the meltdowns.  Often, had the child been properly identified with ASD, and strategies for acknowleging and minimizing noxious sensory issues been in place, then the child could learn to function and modifications could be made to allow the child to function more comfortably that he could now handle the writing assignment demands without having a meltdown.  Or maybe he would be taught self help skills to notify an adult when he feels overwhelmed and learn more effective communication strategies vs meltdown for escape from demands.

So, yes, while ED is a label most parents do not want for their child for many valid reasons, if the school is seeing ASD, my guess is that he likely does have ASD. If he does have ASD, then the ED symptoms are likely due to the fact that ASD issues are not being addressed and advocating for ED removal and new ASD label is absolutely appropriate and opens up a whole new way for the school system to be able to address issue in a more skilled neurologically focused manner vs simple behavioral approach.

A behavioral approach can always be added onto the ASD, however with only ED, then his neurological needs are likely to be severely neglected and treated in a (behavioral) manner that will exacerbate his issues.

Re rough housing: Children with ASD with SPD often literally misinterpret information coming through their sensory systems.  The translation gets lost in the brain.  A light touch, may literally feel like a punch to them.  Or they may have literally been punched but only feel a light touch.  They may have auditory discrimination issues and literally not process info well and repeat stuff incorrectly.

I am not saying that I know for sure your son does not have any behavioral issues.  I am saying that without treatment to the neurological issues first, then he will likely develop behavioral issues if he hasn't already.  The understanding of his neurological difference is paramount and primary in order to see what else may be going on.

Please join your local CARD, they are amazing!

Oh, being fussy about clothing, yes, very common to ASD.

[Rubies]

DD21 is autism/Asperger's spectrum.  Her functionality slides up and down the spectrum depending on how much stress she is subjected to.  These kids are prone to other labels, and I think are denied services unless they carry other labels.   DD's other diagnosis are ADD, Reynaud's syndrome, C-PTSD and PTSD.   These things are real.  Some are cluster symptoms with autism/aspie, the others from being the child of a BPD. 

[livednlearned]

Sensory processing is not always a sign of autism/asperger's.

My son has sensory issues too (scraps, similar to your son, mine felt "hit" in regular play like tag). He won't wear underwear, wears shorts 365 days of the year, snow or no snow, no jackets. He is extremely sensitive to food texture and sounds. Gets a scratch and it's like a sword struck him, etc. Pencils hurt his hand. He has misophonia (intense hatred of certain sounds).

Like your son, mine was dx'ed (age 9) with ODD. Also anxiety/depression, and ADHD. I'm getting so bored with the acronyms I no longer care, just get him the best services in school and out and hope for the best. He is being treated for OCD now, and is at last agreeing to take medication for AD/HD but only as needed in school. Last, he has always had mild tics and developed a verbal one to accompany two motor tics for longer than a year which usually means Tourrette's.

You can't stop your ex from doing what she does, so keep doing what you do. Focus on getting the best services you can under the circumstances. My son had a 504 that was pretty much useless, in my opinion. He was labeled "twice exceptional" for gifted/LD and as far as I can tell, that meant falling between the cracks. The school seemed to persist in getting him off the 504 and I suspect it comes down to paperwork for them.

We have complicated kids. They are not neurotypical and the schools and experts could probably argue until the end of time about what is really going on and still not agree what makes our kids the way they are.

My partner's D was dx'd bipolar at age 16 after experiencing psychosis during depression, so apparently you can be bipolar without the mania? Partner is a physician and he is stumped by the dx. He has an autistic son and sometimes I wonder if the D is mildly autistic too. Who knows.

My son's psychiatrist is excellent and has been treating youth for 25 years. When I talk to him about my thoughts, and he explains what he's thinking, it makes me realize how little we (lay public/ordinary non-medical parents) can really puzzle together from the Internet and anecdotal studies about other people's kids. Having an MD and decades of experience with challenging youth that surpass what the DSM says sounds a whole lot like wisdom when I talk to him.

You just have to take things one step at a time and hope your instincts are good and you model good behaviors. Advocate hard in the schools because: bureaucracy. Be assertive with ex because: BPD. Other than that, all that's left is what you do with you.

The biggest change in S14's behavior came when I focused on how I interact with him. I let go of the rest of it and just tried to figure out how to have a meaningfully relationship with S14. The school took away his 504 and S14 never cared, and now he is asking questions about where it went, how to get it back. He's almost 15 and I swear it's like I never went through adolescence myself, I forgot just how much we change as puberty hits. From 9 to 15, and now a man is emerging.

Aim for the most services you can get, nevermind the dx is my advice. If your ex tries to sabotage the help, find a third way -- you've had to be assertive, strategic, all while you feel worn down and treated badly.

Go easy on yourself. The paranoia is hard. I found the combination of coparenting, alienation, special needs child, divorce, and dealing with school bureaucracy pushed me to the edge. Do you have a T? If not, I don't know how you do it. Having a regular vent fest with someone who could help me prioritize and shift things to the right, to the left, etc. was priceless.

Oh, and one other thing. I found ways to compliment S14 on his defiance, and also let myself be more vulnerable. Defiant kids are tough. Your son might be reading as an act of defiance so he doesn't have to interact with you. His mom may be fanning the flames, but he is ultimately in charge of what he does. Praise him for reading, see if that works. Praise him for having his own thoughts about what he wants to eat. He may be individuating in a strange way, even though could also be doing what his mom encourages him to do, if that makes sense.

My T helped me learn all kinds of parenting-fu to turn things around and very slowly, I saw small signs that S14 was learning to think independently. He has even confessed things to me years later to validate some of the things I thought. I can only imagine it's because he no longer sees me as an adversary. He knows I will meet him halfway when we cooperate, and am pretty stuck to boundaries when he sticks to his. As long as I don't behave punitively toward him for being himself, we seem to be figuring things out.

[scraps66]

My son has sensory issues too (scraps, similar to your son, mine felt "hit" in regular play like tag). He won't wear underwear, wears shorts 365 days of the year, snow or no snow, no jackets. He is extremely sensitive to food texture and sounds. Gets a scratch and it's like a sword struck him, etc. Pencils hurt his hand. He has misophonia (intense hatred of certain sounds).

Like your son, mine was dx'ed (age 9) with ODD. Also anxiety/depression, and ADHD. I'm getting so bored with the acronyms I no longer care, just get him the best services in school and out and hope for the best. He is being treated for OCD now, and is at last agreeing to take medication for AD/HD but only as needed in school. Last, he has always had mild tics and developed a verbal one to accompany two motor tics for longer than a year which usually means Tourrette's.

S11 has all of this too. 

My partner's D was dx'd bipolar at age 16 after experiencing psychosis during depression, so apparently you can be bipolar without the mania? Partner is a physician and he is stumped by the dx. He has an autistic son and sometimes I wonder if the D is mildly autistic too. Who knows.

Aim for the most services you can get, nevermind the dx is my advice. If your ex tries to sabotage the help, find a third way -- you've had to be assertive, strategic, all while you feel worn down and treated badly.

Go easy on yourself. The paranoia is hard. I found the combination of coparenting, alienation, special needs child, divorce, and dealing with school bureaucracy pushed me to the edge. Do you have a T? If not, I don't know how you do it. Having a regular vent fest with someone who could help me prioritize and shift things to the right, to the left, etc. was priceless.

Oh, and one other thing. I found ways to compliment S14 on his defiance, and also let myself be more vulnerable. Defiant kids are tough. Your son might be reading as an act of defiance so he doesn't have to interact with you. His mom may be fanning the flames, but he is ultimately in charge of what he does. Praise him for reading, see if that works. Praise him for having his own thoughts about what he wants to eat. He may be individuating in a strange way, even though could also be doing what his mom encourages him to do, if that makes sense.

I don't put a lot of stock in the dx other than not wanting it to be what ex wants it to be so she gets invalidated.  I don't want to get wrapped up in spending time and energy chasing a specific diagnosis.  We did that in the past and it was just a waste of time to get ex something she wanted.  Wasn't about getting S11 what he needed cuzz she didn't participate in any of the things the report suggested we do for S11.

I'm also learning to maybe not take what school does as gospel because their evaluation doesn't consider the behaviors outside of school. 

LnL I think that is what I had been thinking about the defiance from S11.  One, he feels obligated to do what ex wants him to do when with me.  In a tantrum last Friday night he actually let on that he only does certain things because his mother tells him to.  Like facetiming with me and showing me how he can play the viola.  The viola lessons are something ex completely excluded from me.  But now she has S11 showing me how he can play - over the phone.

[livednlearned]

Do you think S11 is playing both of you, using whatever he can to get his needs met?

What happens when you do the opposite of what he expects? He has to learn that his strategies don't work on both parents. Chances are, his strategies work like a charm on his mom.

I don't think our kids exploit us to hurt us, I think they do it to get their needs met. They don't have whatever it is they need to make choices that take into account how their actions might hurt others. All they know is that what they do works.

We have to focus on the part where we change whether it works or not.

[catclaw]

What is it with Asperger's, giftedness and BPD, i wonder?

We wanted to have SS9 in therapy but his BPDm denied it for 1,5 years. He has Trouble in his emotional/social development, resulting in problems at School (if he doesn't want to do a Task, he will either ignore everything and Play or he will discuss until he becomes angry). Only after the teachers asked HER to come to School for a talk (and somehow she managed to Show up), she came to the conclusion that he Needs professional help (despite his teachers being unprofessional and not knowing her child as well as she does, obviously) and that she wanted him tested on Asperger's and wanted an IQ test to reveal his giftedness. These diagnoses seem to be somehow attractive and "wanted" in a strange manner. I mean, lots of his struggle is due to childhood Trauma. It's something obtained along the way due to life and circumstances that were not optimal for his development. But what if there was a diagnosis that leaves all of this out and explains his Problems anyway? I work with autistic adolescents and can't see any of what Asperger's brings in SS9. I think it's just that - BPDm blames everyone around for SS struggling to find a way, except for herself.

SS9 is smart, no doubt. He might even be highly intelligent, I don't know. But besides this he has had a rough childhood, no consistency, was in foster care, was alienated, has seen violence and lived with an emotionally unstable mother, who might have done anything possible to her to survive, but he definitely HAS Trauma-related issues that explain his emotional immaturity.

[scraps66]

catclaw your description resonates with me and it's something I'm possibly seeing more and more.  Our S11 was initially diagnosed ODD which includes some components that can be attributed to by "traumatic events" such as divorce, etc. etc.  The traumatic events in my case would be the divorce and mother's completely inappropriate behavior towards me being displayed right in front of S11, for years, and his brother.  When this diagnosis was given by school exuNPDBPDw basically gave it no consideration, in tears at school she claimed, "this isn't S9," and then started her crusade to "get a different diagnosis."  Ever since I've been piecing things together and it does seem that ex even tries to get S11 into activities that are consistent with Asperger's/autism, like music, the viola of all things.  At our last IEP meeting a few weeks ago, discussion regarding transition to middle school next year, ex just threw it out there that, "S11 will be in the morning orchestra class, blah, blah," it didn't occur to me that she had already enrolled him in this program.  We hadn't talked about this, the parents, just ex and S11.  What has come out since is that S11 has said that it wasn't even discussed with him and that he didn't want to do orchestra because it was too loud for him. 

So like many things, it seems like mother is trying to posture and control S11s development to be to her own liking.  I now see the opposition to the ODD diagnosis as ex's way of deflecting any responsibility from herself, onto S11.   

[livednlearned]

it seems like mother is trying to posture and control S11s development to be to her own liking.  I now see the opposition to the ODD diagnosis as ex's way of deflecting any responsibility from herself, onto S11.  

It could be that she isn't trying to posture and control so much as she is compelled to posture and control. It has taken me years to understand what "unstable sense of self" means, a core feature of BPD. Lacking a solid sense of self, she might live through "roles" like motherhood to gain (at least) one acceptable sense of self. That means that S11 is, to her, a direct extension. If you have an unstable sense of self, you lack boundaries around that self, so it's almost impossible to know who she is without defining herself through someone else. It can feel like a matter of survival to hang on to that role. Without it, she may drop through to total darkness, which is psychologically terrifying.

Not to make excuses, because I know how difficult it is to coparent when your own child is struggling with serious diagnoses. Only to point out that there is probably nothing with which she can compare, like we can do. This is all she knows.

And to also validate that you are probably right that these diagnoses are directly threatening her sense of self, much more so than a neurotypical parent might experience.

In dialectics, they teach that two seemingly opposing things can both be true. She may be shopping for a preferred diagnosis and your son may be special needs. I found it was initially easier to oppose anything that N/BPDx said, though I can see now that dialectical thinking is a skill useful for nons, too. N/BPDx was able to see things going on with S14 that were connected to his disorder, and also true at the same time. Go figure.

One thing I figured out that made a difference is to give S14 a validating environment, even when his dad created a situation that was invalidating. Distress tolerance is something our kids need no matter what diagnosis they get, and as the non-disordered parent, we have to help them learn those skills.