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SingOn

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« on: May 10, 2016, 06:41:26 PM »

Hi - I've been checking out BPD family for awhile now and have learned so much. I feel like it's time to join in the discussion.

I've been married 26 years to someone who exhibits many BPD traits - black/white thinking, unpredictable outbursts, blaming, jealousy, verbal abuse. He is also intelligent, can be kind, is a good provider, etc. Our kids are now grown and out of the house, and I am still grieving my past inability to protect them from their father's rages. They all suffer from some form of anxiety. We've been on the brink of divorce several times, and always he's changed his mind last minute, and I go along with it. I'm in therapy, and although my husband was seeing someone regularly for awhile (psychiatrist), that person moved away and my husband is not going back to therapy; it was the fourth counselor he tried and the only one who didn't challenge him, which is why he stayed with that person. He doesn't trust therapists in general.

I know I'm codependent, was raised pacifist and to be "good" and all of that, and I'm trying to find my own voice in all of this. I have a pretty good idea of the techniques (non-violent communication, validation, etc.) but have such trouble putting them in practice with him. Meditation has helped me to be in touch with myself and with treating myself more gently, but I have problems setting and keeping boundaries (although to give myself credit, I've been pretty consistent with walking out on his rages and it's helped some). The acute thing I'm dealing with now is his jealousy, false accusations, control, etc. I definitely care about him and understand why he is the way he is (his father was similar, only worse) but I need to find a way to set appropriate boundaries and preserve my own well-being and happiness, even if it means the end of the marriage, because I don't want to live like this forever. My fear is that I'm stuck in a pattern I can't change; after all, I've been in therapy now for three years, and although I intellectually understand so much, we seem to be more or less where we were 20 years ago.

Thank you for being here, and I'm looking forward to taking part!
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 11:00:16 PM »

Hello SingOn,

If you've been here a while, have you digested some of the lessons? Where do you feel stuck asserting your boundaries better?

If you were raised to be a peacemaker, it can be very difficult to break it of that pattern. I'm one, too, and there is little reward if we feel stuck in a rut. Do you feel that by asserting boundaries, that you're violating the "good child?"

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SingOn

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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 10:15:14 AM »

I have digested a lot, but am finding it hard to change my ways. In the past, when he's raged, ranted, blamed, etc., I felt I needed to listen to him, because that's what peace is about - respecting the person, hearing them out, working things out. Everyone deserves to be heard. That's my default. And I still believe that. But I recognize now that I'm being violent to myself by sitting there, frozen in fear, accepting the blame (even while defending against it), not rationally able to make a decision to use tools I've learned about. There are times I got up and walked away to collect myself, and he's followed me, begging me to listen, and then I'm back to default - or I shut down completely while he calls me "ice cold" or some such thing. Either outcome feels horrible to me. I grew up believing in "turning the other cheek", and yes, that by being good, I would avoid being blamed. Accommodating feels so natural to me, I think partly out of conflict avoidance but also out of truly wanting to respect other people, and it just doesn't work with someone like my husband. I do think I have respect for myself as well in many areas, so how we've gotten to this point, I'm not sure. He didn't start out this way.

I will need to confront him tomorrow on a big one, when he returns from a trip. He has, for the last several years, been convinced I'm having an affair (I never would). He left for a business trip two weeks ago, and I found a GPS tracker he put in my car. This is the second time he's done it (plus he'd tracked me earlier by using Find my iphone, which I found emotionally very disturbing and refused to allow, so then he resorts to this.) He's also been through all my old diaries and emails while I was gone, so this issue not going away soon. He's made up a story in his head about the past and it's his reality. Back to the tracker - when I found it I was shaking, heart pounding, the usual. I threw it directly into the trash can and let him know via text that I'd found it and that I wasn't ready to talk about it. I probably could have divorced him right then and there, my boundary violation felt so strong! But in the mean time, I feel sorry for him and the wishy-washiness is coming back and - how do I maintain a boundary to contain an action that is so painful to me, but after time away from him, that strength that comes from anger is diminished... .?

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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 10:50:32 AM »

I will need to confront him tomorrow on a big one, when he returns from a trip.

This is a good opportunity to set a strong boundary.  It is also a good opportunity to practice validation skills.  A good resolution would be to find some way to appease his trust issues.  A compromise might be in order here, one that maintains your boundary.

You can practice this here.  Can you define the boundary you can set here?  How might you reach a compromise?  How can you validate his fears?  How can you validate your own feelings?
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SingOn

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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 12:06:19 PM »

Appeasing his trust issues is very difficult. The trigger for this last paranoid cycle was him seeing a music colleague of mine hug me and kiss me on the cheek after a concert. This is completely normal in my world. (In addition, this man is most likely gay, just sayin'. My husband will complain if he senses I've made too much eye contact with the male of a couple we go out with, complains that I'm too exuberant, that the coat I've bought is to please men, that I'm a flirt, etc. (I don't know that I would even know how to flirt). I've tried to change and be more reserved, as he's demanded, and am realizing I can't live that way - it's not who I am. I am personable and truly enjoy connecting with people, which is threatening to him. He has found emails from the past, taken out of context and adding a made up story line, to prove that I am emotionally unfaithful, and so I've stopped all emails to male colleagues that could be taken as too friendly. Basically, I've done all I can do in that area.

So how to validate his feeling in this? Can I say, "I understand that you were scared and worried you were losing me, or felt left out, when you saw my colleague hug/kiss me. Is that right?" (He very likely would start ranting at this time, blaming me for all kinds of things - his victim story). At some point I would want to tell him (which I did, after the incident) "Please know you have nothing to worry about with him, or with anyone."

My own feelings about being tracked... .I feel scared, there's a deep sense of menace, and I worry that the whole house might be rigged to spy on me. I'm crying now just thinking about it, and yet it's hard to articulate exactly what's so disturbing about it. I can explain this to him but he will most likely justify his actions, because he "can't trust me". But I don't want to take the blame!

My boundary now would be to tell him that tracking me is simply unacceptable, and that if I ever find out again that he is doing it, I will hire a private detective to come check the house for bugs, and then I will call a lawyer.

I'm afraid if I ask him what I can do to ease his fears, it will set him up into making his usual demands that I be more reserved, don't go out with colleagues after performances, let him read all my emails (which he sometimes does when I'm gone anyway) etc, in other words, things I'm not willing to do. I'm just not sure what a compromise looks like here.

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 09:44:14 AM »

I've been pretty consistent with walking out on his rages and it's helped some).

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) This is a good successful step, one to build on.

You've decided that being raged at is not acceptable and you won't subject yourself to it anymore.

I'd suggest that you extend it next to include things he says to/about you which are controlling and manipulative and unkind... .and especially false and unfounded accusations that you are cheating, even if they aren't in a rage.

Remove yourself from those conversations.

I felt I needed to listen to him, because that's what peace is about - respecting the person, hearing them out, working things out. Everyone deserves to be heard. That's my default. And I still believe that.

I think everybody *NEEDS* to be heard and validated.

But that doesn't mean that you have any specific obligation to do it to/for them at any specific time, and especially not to the point which damages you!

This kind of feeling is a good one... .but it is also one that you can use to talk yourself into being abused, or your husband can manipulate (knowingly or not) to get you to accept abuse. You're just going to have to fight this one--while it is always a good and beautiful thing if you can do it, there are many times where you can't/shouldn't. And you really need to take better care of yourself right now.

Excerpt
I found a GPS tracker he put in my car. This is the second time he's done it (plus he'd tracked me earlier by using Find my iphone, which I found emotionally very disturbing and refused to allow, so then he resorts to this.) He's also been through all my old diaries and emails while I was gone, so this issue not going away soon.

These behaviors are harder to deal with using boundaries, because both are things he does when you are not present--you can't just leave when these things happen like you can when he starts raging.

You can tell him that it is unacceptable behavior on his part, and not participate in any further discussion.

You can make sure he doesn't have access to your diaries, email, and phone, by logging out, making sure he doesn't have your password, etc.

I've tried to change and be more reserved, as he's demanded, and am realizing I can't live that way - it's not who I am. I am personable and truly enjoy connecting with people, which is threatening to him. He has found emails from the past, taken out of context and adding a made up story line, to prove that I am emotionally unfaithful, and so I've stopped all emails to male colleagues that could be taken as too friendly. Basically, I've done all I can do in that area.

You've not just done all you can, you've done 10X as much as you should, and at great cost to yourself, decided that some of it was impossible... .and it didn't help anything. Not one bit. He's just as paranoid, just as angry, etc.

Excerpt
So how to validate his feeling in this? Can I say, "I understand that you were scared and worried you were losing me, or felt left out, when you saw my colleague hug/kiss me. Is that right?" (He very likely would start ranting at this time, blaming me for all kinds of things - his victim story). At some point I would want to tell him (which I did, after the incident) "Please know you have nothing to worry about with him, or with anyone."

You can't validate and enforce boundaries at the same time, and especially about the same thing.

I'd also like to note that the bolded statement is INvalidating, not validating--He *believes* you are cheating. So when you tell him you would never do that, you are telling him that his feelings are WRONG. Especially at a time like this, it doesn't help the way you would think that kind of reassurance does.

So what can you do instead of *trying* to do both in a way which you correctly assess will fail badly? I'd recommend starting with boundaries

Boundaries are about drawing your line in the sand. They don't have to be mean, but they aren't nice. And they are your limits. You won't accept anything past this. (For example, you would rather divorce him than live in a bugged house with him listening to everything that goes on and tracking your car!)

When you enforce a boundary, you don't try to get him to agree that you are doing the right thing. That's a fight you don't want to have. All he needs to figure out is that he's not going to win, and you aren't going to discuss it.

Validation works best when he's not angry/upset. You can validate that he feels jealous and insecure. (Without agreeing to do things that he thinks will change that feeling). Don't try that when you are enforcing the boundaries. In this case, let him blow up over boundary enforcement now... .and he will. We call that an extinction burst when he escalates more and more when you try something new like boundary enforcement. If you give in as he escalates, it will only be harder the next time, and probably escalate farther!

BPD Behaviors: Extinction Burst and Intermittent Reinforcement?

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SingOn

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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 12:13:53 PM »

Thank you Grey Kitty - this is SO VERY helpful to me, for untangling and reinforcing some important things. Thanks also, for validating. Would love to engage in more inquiry and discussion but H will be home soon so I will review and absorb linked article... .I can do this!

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 01:20:51 PM »

This is going to be a work-in-progress, and that is OK. If you do better than before... .or just see where you want to do differently a bit sooner... .that is all a success! You don't have to be perfect... .and your husband may respond poorly anyway.

I wish you peace and strength for when he returns. 

Let us know how it goes... .what works well... .what is really hard for you... .what is easier for you... .
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SingOn

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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 08:00:12 AM »

Thanks for your encouragement! Good stuff to report.

I took initiative (I'm generally passive about bringing up subjects of conflict) but I was prepared. I told him how upsetting, scary, etc. the GPS tracker was for me and that it was absolutely unacceptable and if I even suspected anything like that was happening again I would call a private detective to sweep the house for bugs, because yes, that's where my mind goes, and if anything was found I would call a lawyer and it would be the end. (I'd practiced this ahead of time.)

As expected, he launched into his need to discover my "secret life" and so on, and here's where it gets interesting. There I sat, listening. Just like always. Sucked into default mode. But my awareness kicked in and I knew if I didn't do something differently things would never change. So I said (and I'd practiced this, too, so not sure why it took me so long to activate), "I've already apologized for everything I could possibly apologize for, and I am not discussing this with you anymore. I'm leaving for the grocery store." He went on about why I changed the pw on my phone, and how that sure doesn't help him to be more secure, and I very coolly said, "I'm not discussing this. I'm off". Then he said, " I just don't want you to have any secrets from me!" And I said "I don't!" And then left. Oops, jaded a bit there, eh? (Also felt a bit guilty because taking part here on bpdfamily feels very secretive). When I returned, the conversation was relaxed and he'd moved on. The whole episode had lasted not more than 5-10 minutes. I know I'm going on and on here but normally the entire rest of the day/evening would have been miserable and eaten up by this! I'm sure it will come up again, and I'll be ready. What I'm so happy about is that somehow, mid habit, I had the wherewithal to change course and stop listening to his accusations.

The clarity for me was realizing that I was not supposed to listen/validate at this time. Nada. Two separate things. Thank you for pointing that out, Grey Kitty, and all the rest about boundary setting. If I've done it once now, I can do it again, and probably sooner next time!

The suggestion to set boundaries on his spontaneous controlling and unkind/accusational comments was also helpful. I'd been thinking about it, and realize how freeing it would be to block those things right when they come out.  I've had so much anxiety about how little things might trigger his paranoia (how the cushions are placed on the couch, where the new soap came from in the bathroom, etc,) and knowing I had a boundary around not listening/discussing those things would be a relief. Something like, "That sounds like an accusatory question, and I'm not discussing that. I'm happy to talk to you about other things."

Thank all of you who commented here. You're a great welcoming team! I'm sure I'll have many more questions in the future.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 08:39:08 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Excellent work, SingOn!

Stay as consistent on this as you can. It will get him used to the new way of relating faster and easier.

A couple thoughts for you:

Secrecy vs. privacy

You are entitled to privacy. You get to have your own thoughts. You get to use the bathroom alone. Even your husband [probably] doesn't argue about that.

You also get to have your own friends, your own job, your own coworkers, your family, your own hobbies, and he has no right to know everything about every interaction with those people. (I don't recommend shutting him out of these things completely... .but you do have that right.)

Secrets are things that you keep from him which ARE his business. Things that violate his trust. If you share finances, a big purchase or buying a house or a car with a loan matter to him, and hiding that would be a secret. Obviously if you were having an affair with another guy, being married, that would be his business, and be a dark and horrible secret.

What you say about him here is a subtly weird (all of us here have to address this in our own heads), as you are talking about him and your relationship... .and he would totally flip his lid if he knew... .but I still put it under privacy rather than secrecy. If you had a therapist, you would have similar discussions with your therapist, not share most of them with your husband, and there wouldn't be a violation of his trust.

Your H does blow up over your need or desire for privacy, and accuse you of keeping secrets. You know where the line is for you, don't buy into his version of it.

Validation

Your H accuses you of having a secret life. You don't. We say don't validate the invalid, and that applies here.

Your H *is* feeling a bunch of very real things when he does this. You can validate those feelings. If you aren't quite sure what it is, you can ask with genuine interest (without an agenda or expectation), that is validating too, and when he shares something, you can validate that.

What feelings do you think he has at these times?

Anyhow... .that is very advanced use of validation, trying to use it when he starts to get upset with hopes that it will calm him down. Not impossible, but difficult, and even when you do it right, it often fails.

It is much easier to validate him when he's NOT that upset, and especially when he's not upset AT you. A regular diet of this kind of validation will make a huge difference over the long term. It works like turning the stove down under the boiling pot.

Being validating like that is a wonderful habit to develop and it bear fruit with friends, coworkers, family, even strangers.

In any case, if it is a new skill for you, it will improve with practice.
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SingOn

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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 09:08:44 AM »

"Your H *is* feeling a bunch of very real things when he does this. You can validate those feelings. If you aren't quite sure what it is, you can ask with genuine interest (without an agenda or expectation), that is validating too, and when he shares something, you can validate that." (Haven't figured out how to use the quote button yet, even with explanation from help thread)

But I don't know if it's possible for him to discuss his feelings without blaming/accusing. Then I'm triggered, which means it's not a good time to validate. However, if I'm somehow able to emotionally detach then it would be a good time to validate, right? Yes, this sounds advanced, and it may be much further down the road for me. My experience of listening/validating his feelings has resulted in me feeling lost and at his mercy, somehow. Good to practice on calmer topics.

Great explanation of secrecy/privacy.  I would love to explain that to him, for him to see it from my side (for him to agree with me, damn it! LOL) but this would start an endless cycle of JADE. At any rate, it helps me to know what a reasonable line is, and that I am being reasonable. Thank you.

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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 09:13:21 AM »

Ditto on the excellent job you did here SingOn.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

It is much easier to validate him when he's NOT that upset, and especially when he's not upset AT you. A regular diet of this kind of validation will make a huge difference over the long term. It works like turning the stove down under the boiling pot. .

With respect to this SingOn, how do you feel you can validate his fears and concerns with respect to this issue?  What he feels is very real to him even if there is no basis for it.  Validating his feelings will certainly help ease those fears, but there might be more needed.  You also might look for a way to show him that his fears are baseless, without violating your boundaries.  How might you accomplish this?
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 09:19:56 AM »

But I don't know if it's possible for him to discuss his feelings without blaming/accusing. Then I'm triggered, which means it's not a good time to validate. However, if I'm somehow able to emotionally detach then it would be a good time to validate, right?

Try to see his blaming and accusations are outward expressions of his fear.  It know it is hard not to take it personally.  

I find it useful to "visualize" the hurtful things that are said as passing over me, not though me.  Once you internalize what he is saying you become triggered.  Let it all wash over you, like you would do with a child lashing out at you for no reason.  Listen but don't internalize.  It is much easier to validate when you are coming from a place of emotional stability.
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 09:47:26 AM »

But I don't know if it's possible for him to discuss his feelings without blaming/accusing. Then I'm triggered, which means it's not a good time to validate. However, if I'm somehow able to emotionally detach then it would be a good time to validate, right? Yes, this sounds advanced, and it may be much further down the road for me.

Yup, this situation is one you won't find addressed in "Validation 101"  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I know that when *I* am triggered, I can't get out of my own feelings enough to find empathy and validate properly. If the validation isn't sincere, and isn't "right" it just doesn't work... .and honestly I find it far better not to even try at times like that.

Keep working at asserting your boundaries and protecting yourself from the accusing/blaming. As you practice this more, something magic will happen. (Don't worry--your H will keep giving you chances to practice     ) Eventually you will start to realize that you can protect yourself from this stuff, and eventually it will seem easy. The magic is that your feelings will catch up. You will realize that you don't actually have anything to be afraid of, and stop being triggered.

Meanwhile... .start with the easy non-triggering things to validate. For example:

When he walks in the door after a long day feeling beat, you could say "How was your day? You look wiped out."

Excerpt
My experience of listening/validating his feelings has resulted in me feeling lost and at his mercy, somehow.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't quite validation. You can validate his feelings, and care about his feelings without agreeing that what he says is true, or that you have to do what he's trying to get you to do.

I once had a therapist who gave me the exercise of validating what she said... .then went on to say  that I would really good with blue hair and a mohawk, going on in some detail. [You have never seen me, but nothing this therapist had seen me wear would make that seem likely!]

I did well... .and as you might guess, validation was about her thoughts and feelings... .not that it was true, or that I was going to make a hair appointment as soon as our therapy session ended.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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SingOn

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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 01:34:54 PM »

Try to see his blaming and accusations are outward expressions of his fear.  It know it is hard not to take it personally.  

I find it useful to "visualize" the hurtful things that are said as passing over me, not though me.  Once you internalize what he is saying you become triggered.  Let it all wash over you, like you would do with a child lashing out at you for no reason.  Listen but don't internalize.  It is much easier to validate when you are coming from a place of emotional stability.

Yes!

I once had a therapist who gave me the exercise of validating what she said... .then went on to say  that I would really good with blue hair and a mohawk, going on in some detail. [You have never seen me, but nothing this therapist had seen me wear would make that seem likely!]

I did well... .and as you might guess, validation was about her thoughts and feelings... .not that it was true, or that I was going to make a hair appointment as soon as our therapy session ended.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excellent! Will practice with this concept.
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 03:59:57 PM »

YAY! SingOn this is huge! I am glad to hear that you took the initiative however scary it was. It gives me hope to be able to do the same   The comments from everyone to you are also helpful to me.

What's interesting for me to realize in this boundary setting -which I need practice, practice, practice is that you gave a very clear ultimatum:

"I told him how upsetting, scary, etc. the GPS tracker was for me and that it was absolutely unacceptable and if I even suspected anything like that was happening again I would call a private detective to sweep the house for bugs, ... .and if anything was found I would call a lawyer and it would be the end."

When my uBPD husband has gone off on one of his rants in which he threatens to kill himself or never come back or wants  nothing to do with one of our kids this is really hard to try to validate because it gets really scary for me. When he calms down and brings it up again it will not be specific. For example, he'll say "I meant what I said" and then say, he doesn't take anything back because that's how he really feels.  he has said over and over again things like, "no one listens to me unless I threaten to do something... ." or "no one tells me anything unless I get mad because I don't really matter to you... ."

What happened here with your H s very positive! It seems that for our uBPD partners to not be scared, we have to be somewhat scary to them which means we are being reassuring by being large and in charge - wow!

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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 02:58:10 PM »

Thanks, DP!

When my uBPD husband has gone off on one of his rants in which he threatens to kill himself or never come back or wants  nothing to do with one of our kids this is really hard to try to validate because it gets really scary for me. When he calms down and brings it up again it will not be specific. For example, he'll say "I meant what I said" and then say, he doesn't take anything back because that's how he really feels.  he has said over and over again things like, "no one listens to me unless I threaten to do something... ." or "no one tells me anything unless I get mad because I don't really matter to you... ."

Yes, scary! Is there a way you can go somewhere temporarily and give yourself validation/empathy at those times? I've found a meditation practice that includes connecting to a source of love (my T helped me with this) has helped tremendously in finding peace and comfort when I need it most. It's taken time but is one of the most important things I've done for myself. It gives me a deep sense of security, somehow. Can't always do it, though! It's such a process.
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C.Stein
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 2360



« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2016, 06:00:30 AM »

I've found a meditation practice that includes connecting to a source of love (my T helped me with this) has helped tremendously in finding peace and comfort when I need it most. It's taken time but is one of the most important things I've done for myself. It gives me a deep sense of security, somehow. Can't always do it, though! It's such a process.

Meditation grounds and centers you.  It allows you to be an observer of your thoughts and emotions instead of being a part of them.  With practice you will find yourself able to "spot" meditate, where you just detach from your thoughts and empty your mind where ever you may be.  This could also serve as an immediate relief, an instant self-sooth, as it helps keeps your mind calm.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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