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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Stay-cation vs mountains vacation  (Read 2626 times)
ForeverDad
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« on: May 20, 2016, 08:53:06 AM »

I live paycheck to paycheck but have tried to take a big vacation every couple years:

2006 — drive to CO, NM (Pike's Peak, 2 historic narrow gauge rail roads)

2008 — drive to upstate NY to ME (Niagara, Arcadia)

2010 — flight to w.TX, NM, CO

2012 — flight to CA (Sequoia, Yosemite)

2014 — delayed to next year, then due to illness another year

2016 — Rocky mountains again

So our last real vacation (more than day trips) was 4 years ago when we flew and saw the Sequoias and Yosemite.  So I'm really looking forward to our upcoming vacation. Being cool (click to insert in post)  Sadly, teen son isn't. :'( YouTube videos and steam games are what he wants to do.  Hard for me to fathom but I can understand the pull.  Still, huge mountains and activities ought to trump vegetating in front of a computer screen.

When I mentioned vacation to his mother (1) she said not to send papers (I had already emailed and texted her and earlier this week I re-sent the email) and (2) she said that if son didn't want to go then court wants him to decide.  Naturally I said that's not the way it works.

I figure he'll go anyway, grudgingly.  I hope.  I'll find out then.  I asked if he would go on vacation with his mother and he said yes.  I think it has to do with computers, I have a desktop computer for him to immerse himself in at my home, evidently she has a simple laptop and sometimes doesn't have internet.

BTW, I've already told him that when I go on vacation, he can't come to the house.  He said he'd find a window open.  I said the internet router and computers won't be there.  He doesn't quite believe that.  You see, he'd rather lose himself at a computer screen than travel and see the sights.

What's been happening thus far this year while his mother has been busy at work and classes is that she'll drop him off at my home when she's away.  So he's been at my home almost every day for several months.  It's a rare day he doesn't show.  She does get her 3 scheduled alternate weekend overnights and a couple short afternoons during the afternoon.  Other than that he's mostly with me.  Maybe that's another factor why he's not so excited for more time away with me.

Yes, I wish he was able to travel or spend time with other boys in the mountains but don't have any arrangements for that.  (He just had a school sponsored weekend trip with classmates to Washington DC.)  It's not like I can just borrow other parents' kids for a 3000 plus mile round trip... .

I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, he ages out of the court system in 4 years.
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 01:10:35 PM »

My boys are 17 and 13 now and last year they were the same way.
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 01:45:52 PM »

Hmm, can I borrow your younger son for a couple weeks? Smiling (click to insert in post) Tram up Pike's Peak, Rocky Mountain NP, Durango-Silverton steam trains, Cumbres-Toltec steam trains, maybe Crater of Diamonds state park near Murfreesboro AR.  I don't recall seeing bears around but no guarantees... . About 10 years ago I met up with Turtle somewhere out there as we passed through town.
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2016, 02:38:52 PM »

Is there anything different he is interested in doing/seeing? Amusement parks? The beach/fishing/snorkeling... .?

Kids can be fickle. SD11 is often "not excited" when we talk about doing things but once we're there she has a flippin blast. :P

I was probably very similar to your S at that age. Computers weren't that popular yet, but I would always have my face stuck in a book.
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2016, 03:05:31 PM »

Is there anything different he is interested in doing/seeing? Amusement parks? The beach/fishing/snorkeling... .?

Kids can be fickle. SD11 is often "not excited" when we talk about doing things but once we're there she has a flippin blast. :P

Yes, I figure once we're there he'll relax and enjoy.

Also, another factor is that he doesn't see it as all that fun to spend 2 weeks with Dad.

For the past few years we've had annual passes to the large regional amusement park about 40 minutes away.  He goes maybe 2-3 times each year, just enough to make the expense of passes a better deal than individual tickets.

We have a rafting/canoeing scenic river (gentle paddling, no rapids) just an hour away and he doesn't care.

There is a 75 mile bike trail on converted railway right-of-way less than an hour away, advertised as the third longest paved trail in the United States, and he's not interested in biking there.

I got him a 24" 20+ speed bike (used but inexpensive, I picked it particularly because the front wheel has a quick release lock for transporting in a vehicle) and he won't ride it because he wanted different handlebars (angled) but I see those only on single speed bikes.  His excuse is he wants to use pedal braking.

It's a combination of factors — discouragement and/or distraction, traveling just with Dad, peers maybe not in group, attraction of internet videos & games, general malaise, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2016, 03:17:34 PM »

Also, another factor is that he doesn't see it as all that fun to spend 2 weeks with Dad.

Of course not.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Parents are the worst!

Are there family members you could go visit or go on vacation with? Cousins around his age?

I don't know what's "cool" to a teenager these days. Maybe instead of nature he'd want to see some excitement, like NYC or LA?

I guess before I suggest things I should see if you are locked in to your destination. 

When I was his age my parents wanted to go out on our boat every weekend in the summer. Our week long trips were always on the boat. I just wanted to stay home and read books and see my friends. I'm sure my parents saw me the same way you're seeing S. But now that I'm an adult what do I want to do? Boat!
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2016, 03:37:42 PM »

Yes, it's locked in, sort of - My Dream - if I ever moved I'd move closer to the Rockies.  Not in them, but close, I wouldn't want the winter snow issues.  Also get me above 10K feet and I get oxygen deprivation.

The thought of sitting relaxing under the trees next to a gurgling mountain stream or placid lake, with a cool gentle breeze, looking up at the towering mountains, oh my.  You can have your hot beaches, lack of shade and sunburns.  However, if I did vacation at beaches I'd pick the gulf side of Florida, snorkeling in the Keys or maybe Hawaii.

Hmm, I'm still single... .maybe there's someone out there for company... .
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 02:11:44 AM »

I would take the vacation you want with your S.  In a few years, he'll probably have a summer job and might not be able to take the time for a 2 week vacation.  He might not appreciate the vacation now, but I imagine he'll one day have good memories. 

One thing I think about is how advice on this board is to live the way you feel is right, and your child will see life in a non-BPD household.  I think you could apply that to vacations.  Your son might not appreciate your vacation, but he will get the benefit of nature and when he's an adult, he might prefer these types of vacation.  He'll at least have a memory of how you were on the vacation (e.g. forest and mountain = happy, relaxed dad).

That said, can you compromise a little on the vacation?  If it's two weeks, perhaps some days could be destinations he chooses.  Or, you could stay in a hotel a few times during the two weeks and your son could use the computers or wifi at the hotel (if he has a laptop or smartphone) to plug back in, communicate with friends, etc. 
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 08:51:43 AM »

... ."court wants him to decide... "  Is that in the court order for vacations?  I can't imagine it is. 

In my case , for summer, I use the order to give the rules , not xh giving me the rules.

Taking son away from the computer is the least problem. Once away , he'll be ok.

Part is your xw most likely downplaying your destinations.  ( that's a major factor in my situation) . Part is teenage when they begin to not want to be with parents all the time.  For the later, too bad he's going . Because when I was 15 my parents wanted us to take a trip to Europe . I didn't want to go, I wanted to go ... .camping.  Then when the Europe trip was about completed... .I didn't want it to end!

In the mountain areas where you are going, are there group activites for kids? Like hiking , horseback riding , nght guitar and singing with kids his age ?
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2016, 07:35:22 PM »

Relaxing under a tree, placid lake, cool breeze... .fun for a teen? 

It is unfortunate YOUR dream vacay is set in stone.  Isn't there any way to change plans?  Why not think of other options that would excite your son?  Is a favorite band of his playing in an out of state location, does he like go-carting (lots of destinations have it), water sports, etc.  There are so many options and the internet is where to look.  If you can gather 3-4 options more teen friendly pick one TOGETHER, you never know you might surprise yourself and have fun too! 

Also, do 2 weeks have to be taken consecutively?  May work better split into 2 shorter vacations and break up the home-sickness.

I hope you don't take offense to any of my comments, I'm a mom of two kids (16 and 20) and have been there with the vacation dilemma.

Lots of luck and no matter what enjoy the time with your guy!
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2016, 08:28:23 PM »

Putting aside the manipulation issues with your ex... .

You know your son better than any of us, of course. Is he likely to be grumpy about this vacation as a concept, then actually enjoy it and bond with you when you go?

My daughter can be that way. There are times I have to cajole, nudge, and practically force her to go to something, but when she gets there, she loves it. But I know that from my experience with her.

From what you've said, your son is genuinely uninterested in opportunities for canoeing, biking, and hiking nearby. That suggests he's not going to enjoy these things for a two week vacation.

I get that this is your dream vacation -- but you also seem to view it as relaxing, peaceful, communing with nature, etc. I suggest that you might not find it very relaxing if you are sharing nature with a sullen, resentful teen.

The vacation should be fun. For both of you, at the same time. If it is, you'll be able to bond over your shared experiences.

What choice will get you to that outcome?
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 03:44:47 PM »

If it were me I'd do the stay-cation and do a simple day trip or two. Teens have minds and preferences of their own and they seem to deeply appreciate it when we parents express an interest on meeting them on their own level. Especially since they have a BPD parent who is absolutely incapable of putting someone else's preferences or true feelings first. Instead imposing their own wants and needs on their children.

My SS11's counselor told us to pull him from sports. He's been playing sports for years because his BPDm made it clear she expected him to want to play sports and he agreed because being taken to activities was the closest thing he got to attention from his mom. But the truth is that he hates playing organised sports. He never told us. We kept trying him in different things and it always ended the same way; with him passive aggressively not doing what he knew he was supposed to do during activities while DH and I stood on the sidelines cringing in embarrassment. We could force the kid to continue and continue telling us he wanted to do things he really didn't want to do. That's what his mom always did. But we can't force him to like it or put in honest effort. So there is no point.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 09:08:16 AM »

You know your son better than any of us, of course. Is he likely to be grumpy about this vacation as a concept, then actually enjoy it and bond with you when you go?

My daughter can be that way. There are times I have to cajole, nudge, and practically force her to go to something, but when she gets there, she loves it. But I know that from my experience with her.

I'm expecting this outcome.  Previously when he's opposed doing something he's told me afterward he liked it.  I think we'll have a little pow-wow to talk things out rather than butt heads.  I figure we'll come to some solution.  Last year he was okay with this same vacation.

From what you've said, your son is genuinely uninterested in opportunities for canoeing, biking, and hiking nearby. That suggests he's not going to enjoy these things for a two week vacation.

Only because he's now captivated by online videos and games.
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2016, 09:59:54 AM »

I refuse to download video games on our tablets even though S6 asks. The interactive children's books are entertaining enough. He makes the argument about games being educational. All the other adult relatives in their lives are millennials, including mom and step dad. I know that this is my Thermopylae.
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2016, 06:20:24 PM »

My younger stepson is the same way.  He has finally made some friends at his high school that are into gaming, etc. too, and we're glad to just see he has friends Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

My son went to a gaming convention last year - I did a quick Google and found lots of links - here's just one listing lots of events: www.eventsforgamers.com/events/conventions/  I don't know what area you live in, but maybe you could find something locally, or nearer to your proposed vacation spot, to fit in?  I find when I embrace the gaming (with limitations), the boys are much more willing to listen.
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2016, 12:09:03 PM »

Are you sure you can't borrow a friend?

I love to do roadtrips -- last year we drove up the CA coast, camping along the way and then staying at a house in San Francisco I had Air Bnb'ed (way cheaper than a hotel).  We brought along DSD16's best friend, who travels with us a lot.  Because they are vegan, we give them a lot of leeway to research and find where we eat or what we make while camping.  Within limits we also give them free time to pick activities on their own.  My daughter lives in SF, so while the three of us were visiting an art museum, we let them wander around Golden Gate Park and see what they wanted to see.  When we were camping we let them go out on hikes on their own and set up their own campsite.

We've had trips where DSD spent a lot of time trying to find a cell signal, but as she's gotten older (and mom's power over her has lessened) she's begun to really enjoy the unplugged time and is now planning a camping trip all on her own with her girlfriend.
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2016, 03:10:13 PM »

Well, son eventually agreed to go but just for a week and wanted to delay a day.  I know there's no way we can get back that fast since just going out and back will tie up 4 days.  Still says he doesn't want to camp so that makes things simpler.  If we're in between places I have the back seats folded down and the car can be our makeshift camp.  I always did take too long setting up and breaking down a tent or trying to cook on a campfire anyway - restaurants will love us.  In the mountain valleys, the sun comes up late and sets early, got to use time wisely.

Has anyone noticed that lately the gas prices are crazy?  In years past diesel fuel was always more expensive, I was told that was because it held more energy.  Then why is regular gasoline now 10-15% more expensive than diesel?
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2016, 06:04:37 PM »

Summer demand, for one. But it looks a bit more complicated over the long term. For example:

www.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/diesel-in-glut-no-longer-profitable-to-produce-gasoline-demand-may-surge-65-above-average/articleshow/51743081.cms

So if the supply and demand curves cross, will diesel prices increase again?
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2016, 10:58:15 PM »

Sounds like you have a good plan, and I am sure DSS will have a great time.  I hope that you lose a lot of cell signal as you go... .
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2016, 09:22:44 AM »

Well, it didn't go so well.

Once we were 1200+ miles away he was already saying it was time to return.  The first day there we took the Cog Railway up to Pike's Peak and saw a Marvel movie afterward.  Next day we saw another Marvel movie and left for Chama NM.  Third day there I convinced him to take the narrow gauge Cumbres-Toltec Railway (1880s construction with coal steam engines dating to the 1920s) from Chama to Osier, the midway point where they served a wonderful hot lunch, then returned.  It was late afternoon so we drove to Durango CO where there is another steam engine railways.  By then he had a meltdown and was so negative I gave up.

The carrot failed, a promise of the latest game system he wanted if he would suffer through the second week.  The stick failed, turning in internet if we returned early.  His refrain: I want to go home. :'(

At least I took the scenic long way home, going north to I-70 through Silverton, Ouray, Montrose, back roads ride through a mesa, and on the expressway along the scenic Colorado River from Parachute to Rifle to Glenwood Springs.  He was okay once we were heading home.  Most of the time his head was buried in the phone provided by his mother, I guess they have unlimited data packages.  He did pop up his head now and then when I called out the sights.  His one positive comment was that he liked the 25 miles of canyons between Silverton and Ouray (my favorites also) but still didn't want to get out of the car when I stopped there.

I have warned him that if I ever go on vacations alone then the house will be locked up and keycodes changed.  No dropping kids off at dad's house while dad's away for him to vegetate watching internet videos and games.

2 days out, 3 days there and 2 days back.  Now I have to disconnect the internet for a while, probably until our scheduled return.
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« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2016, 12:01:36 PM »

We're back in school days again so I thought I'd update.  First the good news about school.  7th & 8th grades in middle school were a struggle.  He would do well at the beginning of a quarter, then slack off with 'forgotten' and undone assignments.  Teachers weren't all that concerned, saying kids do that in those grades and by 9th grade they realize the grades do count once in high school.  Well, 3 full weeks in and so far he's got A's and a couple B's.  Yay!  Now, if he just keeps them up... .

I was really bummed out about my June vacation.  I was thinking about an August vacation.  Then after a few times back and forth, I decided to Go.  I told my ex he would stay with her, I had informed her of the possibility beforehand.  Son wanted to come to my house some of the time and I said No.  Well, that freaked her out and after quite some time of her cursing up one side and down the other - I hadn't expected such vehemence - I realized I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving on my vacation with her that upset with me.  All summer and even before that on her weekends she'd been dropping him off when she was working.  So I reset my boundary: he could to come to my home while I was gone but not overnight.  So they were satisfied and I was happy because they were satisfied.

I first stopped off to tour the Glenn Beck / Mercury Museum which is only rarely open to the public.  I toured his studio that is a replica of the Oval Office and I saw the Barney tree (Barney the Dinosaur) outside one of the windows.  There's also an eagle-perched-on-the-constitution statue that was given to Beck that was identical to others previously gifted to some recent presidents.  And lots of old documents and revolutionary and civil war relics on display.

During the rest of my week out West I visited several destinations.  In Arizona I walked back and forth at Horseshoe Bend of the Colorado River.  Lots of people perched on the cliff edges, no one fell off while I was there despite the lack of handrails.  Then on to Monument Valley and remote Mexican Hat.  Recovered from the exposure, heat and exertions in Durango CO, then a beautiful drive north to old mining town Silverton on to Ouray.  I loved the Route I-70 from Grand Junction east to mile marker 130, driving through canyon after canyon, with the railroad and river back and forth from the left to right and later right to left, etc.  There were hiking trails along that stretch, I walked part of one, saw a black mink pacing me.  Creek, then mink crossing the rocks, then the bank where I walked the path.  I got my camera out of my backpack but then lost sight of it among the rocks.  Besides the mink, I saw an elk, several deer and some grouse (chicken-like birds) during my vacation.

Best of all, I relaxed.  Yes, I eventually had to rush back, but I really, really enjoyed it despite being alone.
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« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2016, 11:05:32 PM »

That sounds like a grand adventure.  I should take the kids to Mono Lake in the spring,  almost 5 hours from the bay area through Yosemite.  I wanted to do this with my ex,  but she wanted to get busy having babies.  Son will be 7, she almost 5, old enough to remember. 
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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2016, 08:28:54 AM »

That sounds like a nice vacation, too bad your son wanted to miss out! Kids can be such buttheads. How much of a mess was your house in when you returned? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2016, 07:40:17 PM »

My son is like that. He is only 10 and all he care about now is iPad games and youtube. Many of his friends are like that. Heading out for a vacation is no go. He refuse even going to a park in the city.

I resigned to the fact that a camping trip between father and son is not something he ever want to do. My vacation plan is likely to be without him. Perhaps we will have a better time if you and I go on a trip instead.
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2016, 08:03:37 PM »

My six year old will watch YouTube for hours if I let him. So far he's young enough that my boundaries are working. It's disabled on the kids accounts on the tablets, as is Netflix. He was whining the other day asking why. We bring it up on the tv through the PS3 (so far he hasn't figured out it's a gaming console).
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2016, 08:18:33 AM »

The house was pretty much the way I left it.  (As a housekeeper I'm always a few steps behind.)  A little unkempt but overall fine, pets were fed.  I now have a litter of pedigree kittens, yes they were planned, so cute.

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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2016, 03:37:52 PM »

Awwww... . 
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2016, 01:31:43 AM »

My first thought reading this was, I NEVER had a vacation in my entire life and where you went with your son and by yourself sounds like a dream!  Smiling (click to insert in post) I'm 100% with you on that about Florida, I'd MUCH rather be in the shade listening to the water. Ah, getting relaxed just thinking about it. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Anyways, I'm glad things are working out for you, even though it isn't exactly what you wanted. Also, your new additions are adorable. I love cats. My family used to think I was so weird because everyone else are dog people.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2018, 08:35:56 PM »

This is an update to an old thread, nothing much new to add... .

Last winter I lost my job of 15+ years, or more accurately, my team worked ourselves out of our tasks when our legacy software's data was merged into a division using newer software.  Three divisions merged into one and many let go, including myself and one other IT worker.  They were nice, made my exit financially cushioned, but I was one of the first out the door.  So it was 60 days notice and 60 days paid to be elsewhere.  A year later and the site is closed.  Looks like I may have to take retirement, my old boss said he didn't even get one inquiry about me from the many resumes I sent out locally.  They probably guessed my age based on graduation date.  In addition there are no offers for my skills locally, there are one or two each week but up to a thousand miles away.  A move would impact my son at school, naturally he doesn't want to move, not even if it were Naples or Clearwater FL where I sent my latest resumes.  I could supplement my finances working part time locally.

So last summer I had the opportunity to vacation in the mountains without the pressure of "get back for work".  Yes, without 15 yo son.  I highly recommend the Glenwood Canyon section of I-70 just east of Glenwood Springs.  I drove back and forth through the 15 miles of canyon and I walked two exhausting day hikes, Grizzly Creek and popular Hanging Lake.  I rode the Cumbres-Toltec railroad (straddling the NM-CO state line) since there is a midday stop at 9000 feet and an all-you-can-eat included lunch.  I chose turkey.  I also visited the Durango-Silverton railroad, though I didn't actually ride it this time.  I did drive from Durango to Silverton to Ouray, Route 550 is very scenic.  No guard rails on the mountain roads!  I vacationed on the cheap, except for one sleepless night in a motel, I slept in my car (Prius back seats flattened into makeshift bed with padding, sleeping bag and electric AC keeping me comfy all night).

In case I really do retire, I renewed my passport since I'm feeling the urge to relax and wander the Canadian Rockies and Banff National Park next summer.
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 09:08:34 AM »

I highly recommend the Canadian Rockies  Smiling (click to insert in post)

My family used to stop and walk on the Columbia Glacier in Banff when I was a kid. Going back as an adult, I was shocked to see how much it had receded. It was on that trip that I married my ex n/BPD at Roger's Pass    Seems there is a metaphor there somewhere... .

I've hiked in both the US and Canadian Rockies, and the sheer scale of the latter make them almost hard to compare. So much wildlife, especially wapiti (elk), altho it's been a while since I visited.

There are people who "retire" by working in national parks, both in the US and Canada, tending campgrounds and whatnot. Maybe there is something like that for you around the bend.  Thought

You deserve to be happy, FD. 

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