Did some interesting boundary enforcement...much easier will lots of sleep

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So, counselling went fine, actually really good.  

We were almost to the restaurant we traditionally go to after counselling and she starts to ask me about my interest in a VA program that does "vocational rehab" to help vets get skills to get into job market.

I have made contact with the program.

She asks me what my plans are and I said I wanted to meet with them and get more information.

She asks why I would need them and my reply was that I was 100% disabled and had some unique challenges.

She shrugs her shoulders and says "So, why does that matter?"

Trying to keep the temp down, yet uphold boundary, and get car parked, I said.  "I would be happy to discuss this with you later when we can focus on the issue and respectful communication.  My disabilities are a big deal for me."

She says "Sounds like you just don't want to talk about it"  (anyone see the bait for a fight tossed out? )

Simply and directly I replied that I did want to talk about but only in a respectful manner.  

She asked if she was disrespectful and I took the shoulder shrug and tone as disrespectful about something that was a big deal to me.  Then invited her in to go eat.

She said something to the effect of "your mad that I asked about it".

Ahhh, boundary number 2 getting test,

I said "If you would like to know about my emotions, please ask, I would be happy to share them"

I open the door to get out of the car and go in and she kinda shouts at me, "You just don't want to talk about it".  

I looked at her and said I didn't feel comfortable continuing in to eat and would be taking her home.

She said "fine, I'm not going to be punished for asking questions"

I started to speak and she said "Nope, we are not talking"

Took her home, she got out.  And I'm off to shop for dishwashers, which we planned to do together.

So, I was not triggered, wasn't mad, was really more "bemused" about the entire thing.  

I did consider trying to validate or "just listen", but saw this as a direct assault on well known boundaries.

In the big scheme of things, the boundaries held, my communication was clear and she can sort through her feelings about it.

If she wants to talk about disabilities or the VA, she knows the conditions under which I am ok with it.  Choice is up to her.

Didn't see this one coming and focusing on having a good evening regardless of her decisions.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So, counselling went fine, actually really good.  

We were almost to the restaurant we traditionally go to after counselling and she starts to ask me about my interest in a VA program that does "vocational rehab" to help vets get skills to get into job market.

I have made contact with the program.

She asks me what my plans are and I said I wanted to meet with them and get more information.

She asks why I would need them and my reply was that I was 100% disabled and had some unique challenges.

She shrugs her shoulders and says "So, why does that matter?"

Trying to keep the temp down, yet uphold boundary, and get car parked, I said.  "I would be happy to discuss this with you later when we can focus on the issue and respectful communication.  My disabilities are a big deal for me."

She says "Sounds like you just don't want to talk about it"  (anyone see the bait for a fight tossed out? )

Simply and directly I replied that I did want to talk about but only in a respectful manner.  

She asked if she was disrespectful and I took the shoulder shrug and tone as disrespectful about something that was a big deal to me.  Then invited her in to go eat.

She said something to the effect of "your mad that I asked about it".

Ahhh, boundary number 2 getting test,

I said "If you would like to know about my emotions, please ask, I would be happy to share them"

I open the door to get out of the car and go in and she kinda shouts at me, "You just don't want to talk about it".  

I looked at her and said I didn't feel comfortable continuing in to eat and would be taking her home.

She said "fine, I'm not going to be punished for asking questions"

I started to speak and she said "Nope, we are not talking"

Took her home, she got out.  And I'm off to shop for dishwashers, which we planned to do together.

So, I was not triggered, wasn't mad, was really more "bemused" about the entire thing.  

I did consider trying to validate or "just listen", but saw this as a direct assault on well known boundaries.

In the big scheme of things, the boundaries held, my communication was clear and she can sort through her feelings about it.

If she wants to talk about disabilities or the VA, she knows the conditions under which I am ok with it.  Choice is up to her.

Didn't see this one coming and focusing on having a good evening regardless of her decisions.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

IMHO- this was good- you didn't take the bait!

I like that you focused on you as the reason you took her home- "I'm not comfortable eating dinner so I'm taking you home". This was an honest boundary- you expressed your feelings and then took action.

There was no kitchen sinking - no Bible quotes!  . ( distracting and going off topic with them ) . It was to the point and simple.

 

[Sunfl0wer]

I like that it appears you gave her several opportunities to simply move on if she would have choose to and you would have continued the meal, however, she persisted poking at you.  Even in the car, she could have made a choice to put it aside if she wanted, but used protest behavior instead.  I think it is great that you allowed her several opportunities to sit with her emotions without interfering with them in either direction, maintaining your own emotions light and available if she choose to connect on some level!

[formflier]

I came home an offered to take her with to go swimming and workout.  She came. 

I was pleasant and didn't bring up prior issues.

FF

[GaGrl]

Do you see that she consistently returns to the topic of your employment?

The fact that you are not currently in an exec job making six figures is a huge issue with her. Something in her world-view is tied to what your former external trappings were, or what that situation allowed her to do or be.

It's going to be interesting when you get to this topic in MC.

[Notwendy]

I think that employment is a realistic fear. We marry for "richer or poorer" however, financial stress can be just that. If you were once in a lucrative career and you are not now, then this is a change.

Money is one of those "hot topics" that can be difficult between couples and adding BPD would make it more difficult. I think it touches on many difficult issues. Being concerned doesn't mean a spouse is a "gold digger". To a main provider, the income may be tied to a sense of self esteem. Couples can have discrepancies in spending habits.

The fact that you are not currently in an exec job making six figures is a huge issue with her. Something in her world-view is tied to what your former external trappings were, or what that situation allowed her to do or be.



It could be this, or maybe just the change has brought up some fears, or both.

[Sunfl0wer]

My gut says she likely is feeling insecure and looking to poke a hole in you to project her feelings of insecurity on you, but that it actually has less to do with fears about you and your employment, more about her feeling ok with herself.

Just like she got clingy and seemed to want some reassurance, I think this may be another way of expressing that same insecurity about herself, not you.

Just my thought atm though.

You did excellent!  Made it so easy for her to return to you! 

[formflier]

 

My gut is telling me that it is her feeling insecure about herself.  She seemed very insistent on "telling" me my emotions and my calmness seemed to escalate it a bit.

Will never know.

So, I went on like normal last night.  She gently came to bed pretty late.  Did some touching and other overtures that she was interested in, , you know.  I was tired, but figured she was gentle (vice slamming and loud) and I wanted to  reinforce good behavior, so I got over being tire and went for it.  More this morning.

Then she invited me over to the couch.  Looked clearly uncomfortable.  I took the lead and asked if she wanted to pray for our kids.  We did that.  She was still very tense.  She asked if I wanted to "talk about yesterday". 

I said, "Sure, I'm ready to listen, "  I was snuggling with her while she said this.  Anyway, she said "I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you yesterday.  I just didn't know what was going on and hadn't heard about this rehab thing before"

I gave her a squeeze and then snuggled for a while longer.  She seemed to relax.  I said something like "It's ok"

She didn't say sorry or ask for forgiveness, so I picked "It's ok" as what to say back to her.

Personally, I'm good.  Was good yesterday.  I upheld my boundary and moved on.  No issues.

Not good for me to get into the business of critiquing her apology or whatever she did.  I really do appreciate the effort and it was clearly hard for her. 

Big picture.  She is obviously working through uncomfortable stuff.  That's her stuff, I'll be supportive.

Thoughts?

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Honestly, while I realize that in BMC she may "supposed" to be asking for forgiveness and such... . I do not see where she has the capacity to accept constructive criticism to do so.  It is possible, that this part may gradually come in time, or not.  In any event, "pushing" her on this point and providing an "opportunity" for her to feel shame, may have caused an unintentional additional emotion for her to have to sort through, and she likely could have back tracked all that positive processing that occurred to get her ok in her mind to approach you.

I feel that you did excellent creating space along the way for her to move through her own healing without making her feel emotionally claustrophobic about it in any way.

You gave her space to return to you, connect with you, without her having to revisit her shame.  You remained loving, kind, thoughtful, attentive and gave her the space to choose her behavior most easily.

I am a believer that sometimes peoples words may not say the words sorry, but their behavior does.

In this example it sounds like ffW communicated sorry in her actions very well.

Edit: I do find it interesting that I find your actions extremely attentive.  Often we think attentive means we have to dote over our SO or have our hands involved with them in some way.  I think this is a great example here of attentiveness without being too involved in either the person or the outcome and staying focused on your own "stuff!"  

(Too bad some of the more dramatic threads seem to get all the traffic!  )

[KateCat]

I'm wondering if you might be able to offer your wife two "big picture" scenarios in order to ease some of her fears:

Scenario 1: You land the type of job your were describing here a couple of weeks ago.

Scenario 2: You retrain for a different career.

Maybe you could give her two clearly described paths to the future for her and your family and reassure her that either one will be O.K.

Do you know yet what new career path(s) you might consider? Have you discussed these with your wife? Along with a time frame for choosing option number two should you not secure the type of position you have been hoping for?

These questions I have come from my own sense that your wife really does suffer from a paranoid personality disorder and will appreciate particular reassurance and clarity from you.

And congratulations for all the progress you're making here. It really does show. 

[Cat Familiar]

My gut is telling me that it is her feeling insecure about herself.  She seemed very insistent on "telling" me my emotions and my calmness seemed to escalate it a bit.

Will never know.

I've had that experience where my calmness is seen as invalidating. I sure don't want to get worked up (or pretend to get worked up) just to match his mood.

Considering how difficult apologies are for pwBPD, it sounds like you got one--in BPDspeak. I like your response--"It's OK." (I'll file that one for use later.)

I like what Sunfl0wer said. Yep. And ditto on what KateCat said about the good progress you're making here. 

[KateCat]

I have one more small thought, based on my observations of a family member suffering from paranoia:

People with these disorders do much better when interacting with non-threatening others. So, to me, if your wife presently has a position as a type of special education teacher to younger children, that's about as good as it gets. And maybe she can settle into this career just fine. Which would be great.

On the other hand, I kind of cringe at the idea of forcing her to interact with those who might be seen as her peers. Like maybe other wives/mothers of the church.

Does your wife naturally have other women friends apart from family members? Does she have a history of being able to sustain this type of relationship? You may already know the answer to this.

ADDED: (I guess here I'm imagining a wonderfully mature, empathetic woman named something like NotNotWendy befriends your wife, but then your wife becomes convinced that you are going to run off with this other woman if, indeed, you don't already have secret children with her. )

[formflier]

Does your wife naturally have other women friends apart from family members? Does she have a history of being able to sustain this type of relationship? You may already know the answer to this.

No, she usually finds reasons to be standoffish. 

The few r/s she has had have been with older women.  When she was in 20s this woman was in 50s and the lady was more like the mother she never had, but also sort of a peer. 

My wife is bravely forging forward with making these connections.

We'll see.

FF

[KateCat]

If it doesn't work out, I hope everyone is OK with her backing off from such relationships.

You're winning all the big battles for your family right now: sleep, quiet times, order.

[empath]

You are doing really well at keeping the boundaries, and not reacting to her emotions. I like the repeating of the boundary and saying that you would be willing to discuss it when you are able to focus. That sounds very wise.

With my husband, he regularly gets tired of 'having to work' to support the family and wants 'help' in that area. He also has a 'need' to be chosen or picked by other people -- which leads to him trying to get a new job. He really wants to not work (and my working triggers his abandonment fears).

The other thing is for many of our pw is that what is right now will always be the same. I'm also wondering if there is some churchy pressure to be a SAHM because that's sometimes what "good Christian wives" do.

So, maybe the employment thing is her trying to figure out if this situation that you're in where she is the primary worker is a for all time thing or if she can quit working at some point, especially now that you are at 100% disability. When my husband talks with me about his stress at work, it is quite a bit about his worry that he is going to be fired or lose his job because of other people's judgments about him. He has more than a 'normal' amount of worry about these things without cause that he can identify.

A caution about the peer relationships: for my husband, he isn't the best at choosing people who are healthy, probably because he doesn't know what that is.

[Cat Familiar]

I have one more small thought, based on my observations of a family member suffering from paranoia:

People with these disorders do much better when interacting with non-threatening others. So, to me, if your wife presently has a position as a type of special education teacher to younger children, that's about as good as it gets. And maybe she can settle into this career just fine. Which would be great.

On the other hand, I kind of cringe at the idea of forcing her to interact with those who might be seen as her peers. Like maybe other wives/mothers of the church.

Does your wife naturally have other women friends apart from family members? Does she have a history of being able to sustain this type of relationship?

This triggered an interesting connection for me. My mother, who also suffered from a touch of paranoia, had been a schoolteacher and when I was a child she returned to work doing office work.

She had no female friends and the only women she wanted to associate with were her sisters. She was terribly uncomfortable in social situations with neighbors and other mothers. She was afraid of them judging her in a variety of ways.

And at work, there was always some conflict with her co-workers. They were lazy, unmotivated, sloppy, etc. She portrayed herself as the only dedicated worker and because of this, everyone hated her for showing them in such a poor light. (Now I'm wondering just how well she did her job. She was not so competent at housekeeping and cooking.)