What's the difference between borderline and borderline with narcisstic traits?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I know someone who I'm pretty sure has borderline - but she's also so 'me me me' and needs to feel special all the time (her suffering is always greater than others, etc). So I think she has narcissistic traits too. Is there any assesment or resource for how to gauge that?

[FeelingBitter]

I know someone who I'm pretty sure has borderline - but she's also so 'me me me' and needs to feel special all the time (her suffering is always greater than others, etc). So I think she has narcissistic traits too. Is there any assesment or resource for how to gauge that?

[Rock Chick]

I am curious about this too... .BPD vs. BPD w/ npd traits.

FeelingBitter... .Is it possible too she could have hpd (histrionic pd)?

[Herodias]

I think they can basically have traits of all of the PD's. PwBPD seem to be narcissist in that they want the focus on them- as to what level, that depends on the person.

[FeelingBitter]

I am curious about this too... .BPD vs. BPD w/ npd traits.

FeelingBitter... .Is it possible too she could have hpd (histrionic pd)?

What is histrionic PD?

Fyi, here is the thread where I talked about her: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294077.0

[FeelingBitter]

I am curious about this too... .BPD vs. BPD w/ npd traits.

FeelingBitter... .Is it possible too she could have hpd (histrionic pd)?

What is histrionic PD?

Fyi, here is the thread where I talked about her: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=294077.0

I just looked up histrionic PD... .the girl I know isn't  'seductive' but she needs a ton of attention and validation that she's 'special'.

[Herodias]

Could be NPD then... .sometimes these things just need a real Psychologist to decide and even then... .they don;t always know them like we do. This is what I found;

Individuals with Histrionic Personality Disorder exhibit excessive emotionalism--a tendency to regard things in an emotional manner--and are attention seekers. People with this disorder are uncomfortable or feel unappreciated when they are not the center of attention. Behaviors may include constant seeking of approval or attention, self-dramatization, theatricality, and striking self-centeredness or sexual seductiveness in inappropriate situations, including social, occupational and professional relationships beyond what is appropriate for the social context. They may be lively and dramatic and initially charm new acquaintances by their enthusiasm, apparent openness, or flirtatiousness. They commandeer the role of "the life of the party". Personal interests and conversation will be self-focused. They use physical appearance to draw attention to themselves. Emotional expression may be shallow and rapidly shifting. Their style of speech is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail. They may do well with jobs that value and require imagination and creativity but will probably have difficulty with tasks that demand logical or analytical thinking. The disorder occurs more frequently in women though that may be because it is more often diagnosed in women than men.

• Constantly seeking reassurance or approval• Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotion• Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval• Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior• Overly concerned with physical appearance• Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are• Self-centeredness, uncomfortable when not the center of attention• Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification• Rapidly shifting emotional states that appear shallow to others• Opinions are easily influenced by other people, but difficult to back up with details• Being easily influenced by other people • Blaming failure or disappointment on others.

I don't see and NPD exactly like this either... .I think I see HPD's as more dramatic and NPD's are not always wanting to be the center of attention in a group... .sometimes I think they don't mind being behind the scenes observing. But that is what I saw in mine... .Hope this helps. They are awfully similar.

[Rock Chick]

I don't see and NPD exactly like this either... .I think I see HPD's as more dramatic and NPD's are not always wanting to be the center of attention in a group... .sometimes I think they don't mind being behind the scenes observing. But that is what I saw in mine... .Hope this helps. They are awfully similar.

They do seem awful similar I agree Herodias.

My psychologist says she thinks my bf's mother also has hpd along with her severe BPD. As well she thinks that my BPD should go in for extensive testing to see what other mental issues she has. Reading up on personality disorders I think its possible she is severely BPD with either traits of or co-morbid of hpd, ppd, aspd and dpd. She was diagnosed with bi-polar threw a blood test but I really dont think she is bi-polar. Ive been around bi-polar family members and other ppl with bp for over 30 yrs. Rambling on.

Anyways FeelingBitter I think reading up on hpd BPD and npd will help I see you looked some into hpd. I think a person doesnt have to have every trait or characteristic of a PD to have a PD. It's like with BPD a person doesnt have to have all 9 of the dsm criteria to be BPD one just needs 5 or more perhaps hpd etc is same.

[FeelingBitter]

Thanks so much for this info!

Honestly, I think she is just very strongly in the 'cluster b' personality group, you know? She's prob a mix of borderline/narcissism/histrionic/anti-social.  Really what it comes down to is, she has a LOT going on. I don't how she's going to be successful in life with a disorder like this. And she wants to be a corporate lawyer... .? Do borderlines go on to have successful high-stress careers?

[Rock Chick]

Thanks so much for this info!

Honestly, I think she is just very strongly in the 'cluster b' personality group, you know? She's prob a mix of borderline/narcissism/histrionic/anti-social.  Really what it comes down to is, she has a LOT going on. I don't how she's going to be successful in life with a disorder like this. And she wants to be a corporate lawyer... .? Do borderlines go on to have successful high-stress careers?

I suppose they can have some success in some careers but I think it depends if they are a low or high functioning BPD and to what degree or how severe their BPD is. As well as if there are any co-morbids cuz BPD rarely is alone.

[Herodias]

Thanks so much for this info!

Honestly, I think she is just very strongly in the 'cluster b' personality group, you know? She's prob a mix of borderline/narcissism/histrionic/anti-social.  Really what it comes down to is, she has a LOT going on. I don't how she's going to be successful in life with a disorder like this. And she wants to be a corporate lawyer... .? Do borderlines go on to have successful high-stress careers?

Yes. It is my understanding that they are beginning to put them in categories of Cluster B's and Anti-Socials. DID and Schizophrenia are in a different category as well. The person can have many forms of the different categories- Narcissism seems to be the main prominent trait of many of these. Making the self most important. There are many levels of this... .we all have it to a point. It is a necessity... .It just gets into a disorder when it is all about self and not others. That will vary with the person. Yes, Narcissists can be very good at high powered jobs. They actually thrive there. Mine moved up the ladder pretty quick, had fantasies of being corporate. He couldn't keep it up because he wasn't a team leader. I would think being a lawyer would be a great job here all depending on if she can get it together. I know of one that can't keep her office straight and needs someone to do for her. An ability to not have empathy for people can be a good thing in jobs. My husband had no problem firing people. That was his "talent"... .kind of awful really. He enjoyed doing it and if he didn't like someone he would set them up and get them written up until he could fire them. I believe the company saw this as a good thing when they would need to get rid of someone.  He told me he only had one person ever that he felt bad about after because he was an older man and had a family. I actually found it odd that he said that, but now that I think about it... .I bet someone told him that and he just repeated it to "seem normal"... .He told me he doesn't understand why people are so emotional.

[FeelingBitter]

Thanks so much for this info!

Honestly, I think she is just very strongly in the 'cluster b' personality group, you know? She's prob a mix of borderline/narcissism/histrionic/anti-social.  Really what it comes down to is, she has a LOT going on. I don't how she's going to be successful in life with a disorder like this. And she wants to be a corporate lawyer... .? Do borderlines go on to have successful high-stress careers?

Yes. It is my understanding that they are beginning to put them in categories of Cluster B's and Anti-Socials. DID and Schizophrenia are in a different category as well. The person can have many forms of the different categories- Narcissism seems to be the main prominent trait of many of these. Making the self most important. There are many levels of this... .we all have it to a point. It is a necessity... .It just gets into a disorder when it is all about self and not others. That will vary with the person. Yes, Narcissists can be very good at high powered jobs. They actually thrive there. Mine moved up the ladder pretty quick, had fantasies of being corporate. He couldn't keep it up because he wasn't a team leader. I would think being a lawyer would be a great job here all depending on if she can get it together. I know of one that can't keep her office straight and needs someone to do for her. An ability to not have empathy for people can be a good thing in jobs. My husband had no problem firing people. That was his "talent"... .kind of awful really. He enjoyed doing it and if he didn't like someone he would set them up and get them written up until he could fire them. I believe the company saw this as a good thing when they would need to get rid of someone.  He told me he only had one person ever that he felt bad about after because he was an older man and had a family. I actually found it odd that he said that, but now that I think about it... .I bet someone told him that and he just repeated it to "seem normal"... .He told me he doesn't understand why people are so emotional.

When I asked her what she wanted to do, she told me she wanted to go into corporate law, so that she could "have the power and connections". Which I mean, there's nothing wrong with having power and connections. But she's said to me over and over she doesn't want to go into law to help people, but to make a lot of money. Which I mean, is fine. But that to me is the sociopath/anti-social personality aspect of her talking.

It scares me when people like her get a lot of power. The counselor and I talked once about how it's only a matter of time before we see her in the paper for crossing a legal line, probably emotionally blackmailing someone.

[Skip]

A difficult thing about "PDs" in general, and specifically about NPD, is understanding where the line of pathology is drawn - which is higher than most think - this term gets kicked around pretty liberally on message boards.  There are some websites out there droning on about malignant narcissistic husbands and fathers -- but this term, which was coined in 1964 by social psychologist Erich Fromm, is meant to describe "severe mental sickness" representing "the quintessence of evil". He characterized the condition as "the most severe pathology and the root of the most vicious destructiveness and inhumanity" -- basically the likes of Josef Stalin, Saddam Hussein, and Adolf Hitler.

In short, there is a difference between "being narcissistic" and having NPD and a "malignant narcissistic".

This is not to suggest that there are not narcissists or NPD personality types. There are -- and NPD tendencies/traits may better describe your loved one than BPD tendencies.  It is to say that that making a dual diagnosis may be more confusing than helpful for your purposes.

The two criteria often cited at bpdfamily as "NPD" are "lack of empathy" and "portray a perfect image to others" (e.g., acting like mother of the year in public events with the family).  Both of these issues may just very well be accounted for in the definition of borderline personalty.  Empathy is key criteria in the diagnosis of BPD -- in the DSM-5 it will be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).  Mirroring (lack of identity, self direction) could explains the false image portrayal.

The overlap of the PD descriptions in the DSM IV are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women).  They attempted to fix this is the DSM-5.0 (2013) but the solution was tabled and will be studied further.

Comorbid w/BPD-------------- Paranoid Schizoid Schizotypal Antisocial Histrionic Narcissistic Avoidant Dependent OCD More info

Men----------- 17% 11% 39% 19% 10% 47% 11% 2% 22%

Women------- 25% 14% 35% 9% 10% 32% 16% 4% 24%

When asking differential questions about multiple personality disorders, it is important to understand why you are asking the question and how you intend to use the information. Without this perspective and focus, the data may be overwhelming, confusing and misleading.  Examples of focus would be:

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to treatment for a child?

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to using communication tools with your spouse?

• What is the difference/is there a difference between a BPD and a BPD/NPD with respect to emotionally detaching from a toxic relationship?

• Are we just looking for a more toxic sounding name that is commensurate with how much pain or hurt we feel?  A mildly borderline individual can wreck a lot of damage in a relationship - even more so if we were not standing on firm ground the entire time - it doesn't take a lot more than that.

Some helpful hints for sorting through this.

• General and Specific There are definitions for "personality disorder" as a category and then there are definitions for the subcategories (i.e., borderline, narcissistic, antisocial, etc.).  Start with the broader definition first.  Keep in mind that to be a personality disorder, symptoms have been present for an extended period of time, are inflexible and pervasive, and are not a result of alcohol or drugs or another psychiatric disorder - - the history of symptoms can be traced back to adolescence or at least early adulthood - - the symptoms have caused and continue to cause significant distress or negative consequences in different aspects of the person's life. Symptoms are seen in at least two of the following areas: thoughts (ways of looking at the world, thinking about self or others, and interacting), emotions (appropriateness, intensity, and range of emotional functioning), interpersonal functioning (relationships and interpersonal skills), or impulse control

• Spectrum Disorders  An extremely important aspect of understanding mental disorders is understanding that there is a spectrum of severity. A spectrum is comprised of relatively "severe" mental disorders as well as relatively "mild and nonclinical deficits".  Some people with BPD traits cannot work, are hospitalized or incarcerated, and even kill themselves.  On the other hand, some fall below the threshold for clinical diagnosis and are simply very immature and self centered and difficult in intimate relationships.

• Comorbidity Borderline patients often present for evaluation or treatment with one or more comorbid axis I disorders (e.g.,depression, anxiety disorders, bipolar disorder, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, anorexia nervosa, bulimia nervosa). It is not unusual for symptoms of these other disorders to mask the underlying borderline psychopathology, impeding accurate diagnosis and making treatment planning difficult. In some cases, it isn’t until treatment for other disorders fails that BPD is diagnosed.  Complicating this, additional axis I disorders may also develop over time.  Because of the frequency with which these clinically difficult situations occur, a substantial amount of research concerning the axis I comorbidity of borderline personality disorder has been conducted. A lot is based on small sample sizes so the numbers vary.  Be careful to look at the sample in any study -- comorbidity rates can differ significantly depending on whether the study population is treatment seeking individuals or random individuals in the community.  Also be aware that comorbidity rates  are generally lower in less severe cases of borderline personality disorder.

• Multi-axial Diagnosis  In the DSM-IV-TR system, technically, an individual should be diagnosed on all five different domains, or "axes." The clinician looks across a large number of afflictions and tries to find the best fit.  Using a single axis approach, which we often do as laymen, can be misleading -- looking at 1 or 2 metal illness and saying "that's it" -- if you look at 20 of these things, you may find yourself saying "thats it" a lot.    A note in the DSM-IV-TR states that appropriate use of the diagnostic criteria is said to require extensive clinical training, and its contents “cannot simply be applied in a cookbook fashion”.

• Don't become an Amateur Psychologist or Neurosurgeon  While awareness is a very good thing, if one suspects a mental disorder in the family it is best to see a mental health professional for an informed opinion and for some direction - even more so if you are emotionally distressed yourself and not at the top of your game.  

I hope this helps keep it in perspective.  

Skippy



DIFFERENCES|COMORBIDITY: Overview of Comorbidity

Additional discussions... .

Personality Disorders

Borderline and Paranoid Personality Disorder

Borderline and Schzoid/Schizotypal Personality Disorder

Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder

Borderline and Histrionic Personality Disorder

Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Borderline and Avoidant Personality Disorder

Borderline and Dependent Personality Disorder

Borderline and Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder

Borderline and Depressive Personality Disorder

Borderline and Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder

Borderline and Sadistic Personality Disorder

Borderline and Self Defeating Personality Disorder

Other

Borderline PD and Alcohol Dependence

Borderline PD and Aspergers

Borderline PD and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

Borderline PD and BiPolar Disorder

Borderline PD and Dissociative Identity Disorder

Borderline PD and P.T.S.D.

Borderline PD and Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD)

[blackbirdsong]

My therapist is very respected in my country even on scientific level regarding the PDs.

She once told me: There is no borderline person who is not narcisstic. The core of BPD is under narcisstic influence. Some of them are more narcisstic, some of them are less. But there is no BPD without narcisstic traits.

For example. Narcissism doesnt have to be only in 'me me me' shape.

It can also be in subtle form of too extreeme  giving. Because by giving you are able to control the person who recieves. This is one of the reasons why I said several times that codependency also dances very close to the narcisstic traits. This is a reason why some of my previous topics weren't that popular on this board. 

[neverloveagain]

https://youtu.be/sU305NqXT94 Closer to the end of this video sums it up nice.

[bAlex]

My therapist is very respected in my country even on scientific level regarding the PDs.

She once told me: There is no borderline person who is not narcisstic. The core of BPD is under narcisstic influence. Some of them are more narcisstic, some of them are less. But there is no BPD without narcisstic traits.

For example. Narcissism doesnt have to be only in 'me me me' shape.

It can also be in subtle form of too extreeme  giving. Because by giving you are able to control the person who recieves. This is one of the reasons why I said several times that codependency also dances very close to the narcisstic traits. This is a reason why some of my previous topics weren't that popular on this board. 

From my own experience I agree with this 100%

[FeelingBitter]

My therapist is very respected in my country even on scientific level regarding the PDs.

She once told me: There is no borderline person who is not narcisstic. The core of BPD is under narcisstic influence. Some of them are more narcisstic, some of them are less. But there is no BPD without narcisstic traits.

For example. Narcissism doesnt have to be only in 'me me me' shape.

It can also be in subtle form of too extreeme  giving. Because by giving you are able to control the person who recieves. This is one of the reasons why I said several times that codependency also dances very close to the narcisstic traits. This is a reason why some of my previous topics weren't that popular on this board. 

From my own experience I agree with this 100%

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. This quote: "It can also be in subtle form of too extreeme  giving. Because by giving you are able to control the person who recieves."

Is wanting to control other people central to narcissism? Cause the BP I worked with is constantly looking to control other people's actions.