Kids suffering

[earlgrey]

This is us, me non but codependant, W uN/BPD.

I have a reasonable understanding of the dynamics (chaos) of our world.

We have kids, D7 and me SD19.

Kids get a hard time from mum.

Main concern is small one, D7. She has to deal on a daily basis with criticism, put downs, eye rolls, deep sighs, threats (I’ll tell your teacher), and totally unpredictable and non sequitur stuff from mum. Their relationship is difficult.

I have tried to talk to W. about this, but the general replies I get are things like…... ”my girls are not like you they are tough they can take it”, “I’m their mother I can do what I want”,  “that’s the way I am”, “you haven’t yet solved your problems with your mother” etc etc. In other words no dialogue.

So my question is how to protect D7 from this kind of abuse.

Can boundaries work in this kind of situation? If so what form might they take?

SD 19 must have gone through the same stuff when she was small but I arrived later. SD already has many traits of BPD.

While I am contemplating getting out of all this (divorce) we presently all live together.

Any help much appreciated.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[standing firm]

Can you talk to your daughter?

My husband and I have a daughter who is 9 and a son who is 7. Generally husband uBPD is good with them but sometimes treats our son unfairly in my eyes. I try to find time to apologise to my son for how he felt when Daddy treated him like that and am beginning to try to explain that he gets upset when tired and that it's not my son's fault. I do worry how their relationship will pan out when he's older though.

[teapay]

Maintain a good relationship with your D7.  Make sure she knows you love her and accept her and build her up where ever you can.   See if your SD19 can do the same for her.  If she is having problems get her some counseling and maybe get involved with it too.

As far as boundaries, what do you usually do when this happens.  You can intervene if your present when it happens.

[earlgrey]

As far as boundaries, what do you usually do when this happens.  You can intervene if your present when it happens.

hi tp... .typically mum starts having a go at D7... example things are running late because mum has been on chatting on phone, D7 gets grief because blame now gets put on her for tardiness and not going fast enough.

If I do not intervene, D7 gets tearful stressed angry and made to feel bad.

If I do intervene I get I am bad dad for not supporting mum and not showing united parent front.

Maybe D7 has to learn mum is tricky, but at what damage to her self esteem?

After one such episode (where I heard the fight but did not intervene) I asked D7 what happened and she said 'mummy treats me like a dog'.

Would much appreciate some help here beacuse I do not really know how to stop/minimise impact of these exchanges.

thanks

[teapay]

You can try talking to your W about it privately when she is not dysregulated but thinking more clearly.  Is she she concerned about D7?  Is she ammendable to these types of discussons under the right circumstances?

You can try to intervene earlier, validate her feelings before she dysregulated and deescalate a pending behavior.  This way you are united with her somewhat, yet also preventing to maltreatment if the D7.  This is hard to do.  You need to be pretty skillful at it.  This would work better if the above is effective to some degree.

You can intervene after she begins to escalate and have the W fall on you rather than the D7.  Then you can handle it as an adult using the boundaries you normally use to deal with a BPD partner.  Your D7 doesn't have this kind of protection and needs someone else to provide it.  What kind of boundaries do you implement when your W turns this on you?

[earlgrey]

Teapay thanks for your comments.

I am afraid while i am OK at recognising poor behavious I am not very skillful at boundaries or know how to dismantle what is going on.

All I do know is that W will not own any of her behaviour, or maybe she is owning it but she believes it is not bad or damaging, and  that I am being overprotective and fussy.

[C.Stein]

Have you considered taking over the main parenting of your D7?  If your wife cannot respect the boundaries of your daughter then perhaps removing her from situations where the damaging/abusive behavior is most likely to occur is the best thing to do? 

In an ideal world parenting is an equally shared task but in the real world obligations of one parent or the other will typically lead to one doing more/most of the parenting.  Do your obligations allow you the time required to take over parenting D7 where your wife cannot manage it without the abusive behavior?  If not have you considered a nanny?  I don't really support shoveling off parenting to a nanny but if the only other option is what D7 is now having to deal with then it would be something to consider if you cannot step in and take over.

[earlgrey]

many thanks CS for yr input.

Yes time does allow me to spend more time with D7.

I may just gently start taking over more duties.

[C.Stein]

many thanks CS for yr input.

Yes time does allow me to spend more time with D7.

I may just gently start taking over more duties.

That might just be the ticket here.  How gently you do it I guess depends on how your wife will handle it.  How would she react if you were to take over doing the thing that triggers her abusive behavior the most and discuss it with her first?   Certainly I would expect she will notice the shift in responsibilities if you don't.  Have you considered how you will handle her inquiries?

[earlgrey]

I have not noticed a pattern that triggers... .maybe I haven't looked.

If done gently, and not I can do that better etc, she can be happy to let go.

It looks very simply that she does not have patience with D7. On homework for example, the first 'error' or distraction 'encountered' and mum lets fly!

But very often she thinks my approaches to help are based on 'you think you are better at this' and then she will say to D7, ":)addy's a good daddy, mummy's bad" in a sarcastic way.

While I am probably short of a lot of stuff, I do have patience and calm on my side.

Any perceived thought of criticism by W. and things will snowball.

Concerning her inquiries, I will squash any idea that I do it better, and put it down to I have time and she can be getting on with other things. That's OK I guess but it does not address the issue of her lack of 'patience' and heavy handed approach. Or perhaps this simply side-steps the issue... .is that OK?

[C.Stein]

I think the most important thing here to concern yourself with is your daughters well being.  You obviously don't want to create additional conflict with your wife as this will also impact your daughter.  

What is the one thing that triggers your wife the most?  Work out how you can accomplish this without conflict.  

How are your Validation skills?  

Have you read about S.E.T?

[earlgrey]

What is the one thing that triggers your wife the most?  Work out how you can accomplish this without conflict.  

Well we were lying together in bed this morning, just touching all quite calm. D7 comes in and starts playing quietly on the bed.

After a while I jiggle my foot (for fun) where D7 is playing.

Instantly W. moves away from me... .mmmmmmm

Downstairs at breakfast I get in the neck for asking about the potatoes... .mmmmmmm

I think my attention (foot jiggle) to D7 triggered a lot of stuff.

W. returns from school run and all is fine again.

So it appears taking attention away from W. and onto D7 opens up a load of stuff... .which BTW if we try to address is source of more anquish.

So from a learning point of view a good morning 

[C.Stein]

I think my attention (foot jiggle) to D7 triggered a lot of stuff.

Good recognition on your part.  It sounds like you triggered an abandonment fear?  Thoughts?

How do you think you could have handled this better to avoid any blow back at all?

[earlgrey]

I think my attention (foot jiggle) to D7 triggered a lot of stuff.

Good recognition on your part.  It sounds like you triggered an abandonment fear?  Thoughts?

How do you think you could have handled this better to avoid any blow back at all?

Thank you, yes I felt very satisfied with this discovery. Abandonment I would guess was an issue here... .W. was being left alone while my attention went elsewhere. This is an area I will need to examine more closely, but feels familiar.

Your next question is more tricky. My immediate reaction is WOW! my W. is super sensitive on this area, I cannot even 'play' with our D7 without retribution.

TBH off the top of my head I do not know how to proceed... .in terms of 'normal' spontaneous exchanges.

So I will have to reflect, consider my actions, and maybe warn W. that I am going to put some of my attention onto D7, and that you (my W.) are not going to be forgotten.

And as soon as I've jiggled my foot I'll be right back.

This does make sense, but is this what I am faced with?

There is history here... .we dated for about 3 years and this was a non-stop honeymoon. But we lived in separate houses and spent much of our time without our big kids. Since all moving in together and having D now7 my time is shared, and our difficulties have become very visible.

[C.Stein]

So I will have to reflect, consider my actions, and maybe warn W. that I am going to put some of my attention onto D7, and that you (my W.) are not going to be forgotten.

And as soon as I've jiggled my foot I'll be right back.

This does make sense, but is this what I am faced with?

Being sensitive to these subtle changes in your wife due to things that are occurring is half the battle.  It is so easy just to "blow it off" and ignore it.  So in that respect you are half way there.  Now when you noticed her pulling away when you started giving D7 attention do you think that pulling your wife in for a hug or something similar would have alleviated whatever negative emotions she was feeling?  This would send the message that you love her just as much as D7.  I wouldn't "warn" her, just notice and take appropriate action when necessary.   

Consider this.  Emotionally speaking your wife is very much a child and in that respect you need to treat her like one.  :)oes that make sense based on your observations of your wife's behavior?   The way your wife pulled away could be likened to a child pulling away when a parent gives attention to another sibling and not them.

[earlgrey]

A lot of our difficulties are associated with family time.

In the early days, honeymoon period, often it was just the two of us, and things were fine.

Ever since D7 arrived, and more recently all under 1 roof, my time gets shared out.

Consequence W. does not get her needs met of 1-on-1 time. Result misery for all!

I cook pancakes for the kids... .feel the icy silent treatment.

Saying that, there were also many times when I have had to cope with her emotional unavailability... .

[C.Stein]

A lot of our difficulties are associated with family time.

In the early days, honeymoon period, often it was just the two of us, and things were fine.

Ever since D7 arrived, and more recently all under 1 roof, my time gets shared out.

Consequence W. does not get her needs met of 1-on-1 time. Result misery for all!

I cook pancakes for the kids... .feel the icy silent treatment.

Have you tired engaging her more, especially in those times when you feel the icy ST coming on?  

She needs constant attention and validation, you just need to find a way to give equal attention to your two "children" so one doesn't feel left out.  

The burden of responsibility here is on your shoulders, that's just how it is with a borderline.

Saying that, there were also many times when I have had to cope with her emotional unavailability... .

Yea ... .I know that unavailability.  You can't take it personally though.  Some of the things she does you just have to let it bounce off of you.  It can't impact you emotionally if you don't let it in.   It's a fine line to walk, but that is life with a borderline.  

[earlgrey]

Thank you CS, you have helped a lot.

You say "She needs constant attention and validation." yep, not sure I'm up for that.

And in return we get emotional unavailability... .

I think the bottom line here is that I am not getting my needs met in this r/s and I have recognised that for a number of years.

HOWEVER, and the gist of my other topics, getting out IS DIFFICULT.

But I am working on it, and these exchanges really help.

[C.Stein]

You say "She needs constant attention and validation." yep, not sure I'm up for that.

And in return we get emotional unavailability... .

I can understand this.  You give and give and get little in return.

Perhaps you can work on how to recognize little signs your wife gives off that she needs attention/validation?  This way you can avoid the really bad dysregulation and perhaps not feel overwhelmed with having to constantly care for her needs.  Perhaps there is also a way you can gently nudge her to self-sooth and self-validate.  How can we explore these options?

I think the bottom line here is that I am not getting my needs met in this r/s and I have recognised that for a number of years.

HOWEVER, and the gist of my other topics, getting out IS DIFFICULT.

But I am working on it, and these exchanges really help.

I think getting all your needs met in any relationship is probably not going to happen.  This is where compromise comes it, albeit difficult with a borderline.

The reality of your relationship is you will likely never feel it is mutually beneficial.  You may feel like you are constantly tending to her needs in order to avoid the meltdowns while ignoring your own.  This would be another opportunity to explore how you might get your wants/needs fulfilled without triggering her.  

There is also the issue of getting her professionally diagnosed and into treatment.  That would be a long term commitment on her part but it could yield good results with effort on both your parts.

With respect to getting out ... .does that mean getting out of the relationship or getting out of the chaos?  

[earlgrey]

Perhaps you can work on how to recognize little signs your wife gives off that she needs attention/validation?  This way you can avoid the really bad dysregulation and perhaps not feel overwhelmed with having to constantly care for her needs.  Perhaps there is also a way you can gently nudge her to self-sooth and self-validate.  How can we explore these options?

She has a great ability to not show 'need' in a straightforward way, so I have never managed to pick up on it. I moved to a spare room some time ago because of the chaos, she just let me go, no signs of 'distress'. In times of verbal fights her line will be "if you are not happy leave". I have never seen her show her need for me - it seems to represent weakness.

I think getting all your needs met in any relationship is probably not going to happen.  This is where compromise comes it, albeit difficult with a borderline.

The reality of your relationship is you will likely never feel it is mutually beneficial.  You may feel like you are constantly tending to her needs in order to avoid the meltdowns while ignoring your own.  This would be another opportunity to explore how you might get your wants/needs fulfilled without triggering her. 

There is also the issue of getting her professionally diagnosed and into treatment.  That would be a long term commitment on her part but it could yield good results with effort on both your parts.

With respect to getting out ... .does that mean getting out of the relationship or getting out of the chaos? 

We tried therapy together with a T who was familiar with BPD - we lasted 2 sessions, W wanted to stop. I don't think she has any desire (or reason even!) to start again. I have come a long way and realise the present limits of our r/s. Even with better understanding and control (see Light Bulb Day) I am not certain our future is together. Divorce was brought up last year and we (well me really) are working on it!

I have read much about ending/resolving this r/s in a healthy way, and that is what I want to do. Whatever the format.

[C.Stein]

She has a great ability to not show 'need' in a straightforward way, so I have never managed to pick up on it. I moved to a spare room some time ago because of the chaos, she just let me go, no signs of 'distress'. In times of verbal fights her line will be "if you are not happy leave". I have never seen her show her need for me - it seems to represent weakness.

This may be a blessing in disguise?  There isn't a rule that says couples have to sleep in the same bed and you might/probably get a better nights sleep by sleeping alone.  I have always felt couples should have their own room/space they can retreat to when needed.  That is not to say there can't be a shared bed if that is what is desired. 

Her not showing "need" could be control related?  What she portrays on the outside may not be anything close to what she feels on the inside.

We tried therapy together with a T who was familiar with BPD - we lasted 2 sessions, W wanted to stop. I don't think she has any desire (or reason even!) to start again. I have come a long way and realise the present limits of our r/s. Even with better understanding and control (see Light Bulb Day) I am not certain our future is together. Divorce was brought up last year and we (well me really) are working on it!

I have read much about ending/resolving this r/s in a healthy way, and that is what I want to do. Whatever the format.

I can certainly understand.  How will this all all impact D7? 

[Iona]

If I do not intervene, D7 gets tearful stressed angry and made to feel bad.

If I do intervene I get I am bad dad for not supporting mum and not showing united parent front.

Maybe D7 has to learn mum is tricky, but at what damage to her self esteem?

After one such episode (where I heard the fight but did not intervene) I asked D7 what happened and she said 'mummy treats me like a dog'.

Dear earlgrey,

I am sorry that you are facing this difficult situation: it is always more painful/worrying when children are exposed to this type of behaviour. Your post 'rang a lot of bells' with me, and my children and their relationship with their uBPD father. His behaviour to our daughter, in particular - when she was around the age of 6-8 years was often harsh, and, at times, his response was irrational (he reprimanded her for the way she "looked" at him/her "tone" of voice - she was only about seven years old  )

Like you, when I tried to intervene, I was accused of not "supporting" him and that I was a "soft touch" when it came to disciplining the kids. This resulted in a lot of tension/arguments between us.

I always felt "on edge" when it came to his ideas of discipline, but always intervened, although I tried to  do it in a tactful way - perhaps trying to get my daughter out of the situation and explaining in a different room that her dad was "tired" or "grumpy" and he "did not mean to behave in that way/hurt her feelings".

I would also challenge him too as I felt it was important that my children saw me "standing up" to him, even if it lead to an argument.

I would, when things had calmed down, try to get him to apologise to her - sometimes he did/sometimes he didn't. He did, eventually, get some therapy and this really improved his relationship with our children - he became much calmer; more patient/child friendly etc. Not perfect, but certainly much better.

I would also reassure my daughter privately that she had done "nothing wrong" and that she was a "good girl". I think this reassurance is vital.

I found this situation really worrying and wondered how it would impact on my daughter as she grew up. My daughter is now thirteen years and does have a tendency to get very anxious over small things. This could be a consequence of having a uBPD father (although we are separated now). I'm not sure. I do feel guilt over his responses to her, and the difficult situation he placed me in. My advice would be to ensure that you are putting her wellbeing first - she is the true child - caught up in this difficult relationship - make sure that she is fully aware that you are taking her side, in relation to your partners inappropriate responses.  Good luck.[/quote]

[earlgrey]

I can certainly understand.  How will this all all impact D7? 

D7 is quite cool! Mum in one of her "sessions" told D7 we were going to separate and live in separate houses. We are actually still together but the idea has been sown and D7 seems to be OK with it. Big brother has 2 houses!

@Iona... .thanks for your words; despite our chaotic worlds - though you have moved on -  it is always conforting to hear from people who understand. I have a great r/s with D7, so very different from what she gets from mum. I try to reduce visible fights, as there is no winner. My feeling is that mum and D7 are going to have to work it out, though D7 knows she can alwys find love and support with me. D7 also knows Mum can be very grumpy, and does not bury that information in her little head, she tells me.

If we separate they are going to have plenty of time together (50/50 parenting should be granted) as I don't plan fighting for full custody.

D7 has some curious habits, OC (obsessive compulsive) kind of stuff... .WOW only just thought of that   . Fiddles with her socks to get them straight, and has a going to bed routine with her mum which is outrageous (chaotic), but M and D play it out together.

I have tried to show completely different ways of doing things, and avoid getting into the chaos routines. On the whole it works and while I am certain some wierdo stuff will stick, I am thinking/observing D7 is doing fine.

One day in the garden we were goofing about (just the two of us) and D said "you are the best daddy in the world"... .I smiled and said how great it must be to have a best daddy and a best mummy. No she said, mummy's not the best in the world - she's always grumpy! Now despite the fact I was delighted to hear D's thoughts about her dad, I was also reassured that D understood mum was different.

[C.Stein]

D7 is quite cool! Mum in one of her "sessions" told D7 we were going to separate and live in separate houses. We are actually still together but the idea has been sown and D7 seems to be OK with it. Big brother has 2 houses!

Keep an eye on this EG.  What may look OK on the surface may not be the case underneath.