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Author Topic: Trying one last time and want to sort old issues  (Read 505 times)
confusedbloke
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« on: May 31, 2016, 04:48:26 PM »

Hi everyone. I've been on the detached message board for the last 6 weeks and we have decided to try again... .one last time.

I'd like a bit of advice on how to tell / ask my BPDgf  that I want to go out with friends now and again. She gets very offended if I want to go anywhere without her. It's important to me to keep in touch with friends so was just wondering what the best practice would be... she's elated when I ask her to join us but sometimes I would like to go out without her.

Many thanks
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2016, 08:57:46 PM »

hi confusedbloke  

i think, in your most recent thread, you were really onto something. that is, that in order for this relationship to work for you, and in order for you to lead emotionally, that you have to be willing to live your life in an authentic way, despite potential consequences. that does not preclude hearing your partners concerns, or validating them.

im not sure if, after your recent success, i would necessarily ask her to sit down and have this conversation. baby steps and positive reinforcement can go a long way without directly communicating your needs, and the conversation could be too much too soon, and set off fears of abandonment.

i would follow the approach you recently practiced, and id build on it, but slowly. is there an upcoming event with friends on your calendar that youd like to attend? if not, it may be best to hold off on the discussion.

have you had a chance to read up on the lessons here, particularly the communication tools? wanting to see your friends, and have your "alone" time is in my view a healthy choice, one you ought not neglect (if one neglects their friends, what does their support system look like), but one that may well trigger your partner. this may be an inevitability, but good management of the situation can limit the extent to which it escalates.
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confusedbloke
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 05:22:17 AM »

Hi Once!   

I didnt realise you looked at this board also.  Always good to hear your comments and advice  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I genuinely believe I'm on to something also - thanks for saying.  I believe that I have to change in order to be with her (i.e. researching BPD, talking to you guys etc), but also SHE has to change.  I'm not going to force her to change (like I've stupidly tried in the past), but I just want to see if she works it out herself.  I will set my boundaries and basically let her know how I expect to be treated - but also I will respect her wishes and will treat her how she expects to be treated (by learning about BPD).  There needs to be mutual respect, BPD or not, I feel. I don't want a one sided relationship as it was.  I cannot live like that... .and I wont live like that.

She sees me with the kids, she knows how much I cuddle and kiss them and tell them I love them everyday... .And TBH I think she wants a piece of that action  Smiling (click to insert in post).  She sees me with people.  She knows the kind of man I aspire to be and now she's not afraid anymore to give in and just be with me and I totally believe she will.  We have never really spoken like this before.  She is finally opening up after 15 months!  And the reason for that is that she now trusts me, and equally, I finally trust her. 

We both want to be together, that's obvious to us both, but not the way it was, we have both said that.  She has said that she wants to change and will do anything to be with me, and I have said the same... .again reinforcing the fact that I don't want to leave her and am willing to change my attitude in order to keep her.  I just know the more I reinforce the fact that I want her, the more she will feel safer.

And I think that's what its all about.  Who doesn't want to feel safe?  Everyone does.  It must be so difficult to have such a traumatic childhood where those that are supposed to be there for you and care for you, just don't give a crap and are mean.  With that upbringing, who would really trust anyone?  That's the way I'm looking at it - through her eyes I guess.  I think because I have a good relationship with the kids it helps.  She knows that I'm the kind of person that wont let someone down... .I know she finally gets it. 

I don't know, maybe I've watched Good Will Hunting too many times, but that was all about trust.  I have struggled to trust her because of the completely mental behaviour that I witnessed, but I certainly played my part in that with my insecurities, which in turn caused her not to trust me.  We basically fuelled each other in a negative way, and now we want to fuel each other in a positive way!

And yes, thanks for the advice.  For the moment I will concentrate on us and leave the 'friend conversation' for now.  TBF she works some evenings now, so for the time being I can slot my friends around that.

I do feel like she's finally on my side and it will take work to keep it that way - but tbf, what relationship doesn't? its just a very different kind of one - but I bet if it does work, it will be the best one I've ever had.

I want to remain positive, coz that's my personality, and if it all ends up in the toilet, then I know I gave it my best shot.

Cheers
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confusedbloke
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 05:32:43 AM »

have you had a chance to read up on the lessons here, particularly the communication tools? wanting to see your friends, and have your "alone" time is in my view a healthy choice, one you ought not neglect (if one neglects their friends, what does their support system look like), but one that may well trigger your partner. this may be an inevitability, but good management of the situation can limit the extent to which it escalates.

This is absolutely exactly what its like.  I need my friends, but it always triggered abandonment fears to the point where I had to cause an argument to go out.  And she found out that I was doing that and that made things worse - as you could imagine.  I guess I will just learn in time on how to do this, so she feels safe that I'm not going to run off.  And youre right its the management of the situation.  I need to be cool calm and collected... .but actually approaching the subject is another thing.  This was always one of our major fallouts.  She felt that I never wanted to be with her - but she forgets that she used to ignore me for 3 days, so I got fed up over time and started to go out when she did this.  And because of this I met new people and did different things - and that made it worse also... .to the point that we would fall out 4/5 times a day... .It was awful.  But I was seeing us as a 'normal' relationship (whatever that is  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) ).  It isn't a normal relationship.  I know that now.  Basically I just want to get it right this time.  We both do.

I havent read the lessons yet - Ive been so busy typing and spilling my guts out.  I will check them out, now that I know what direction I want to take
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C.Stein
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 06:04:11 AM »

CB,

Nothing wrong with wanting to spend time with friends, but from her point of view she see's it as you don't want to spend time with her and then she gets triggered.   Finding a way to validate her concerns and to address her abandonment fears will get you far.  I agree with once_removed, it is probably too early to have a sit down, but you also can't let it fester either. 

One way I can see this being resolved to some extent is to invite her to join you with friends, which you said you have already done.  It certainly doesn't need to be every time and it shouldn't be.  She needs to understand this and not feel threatened by it.  Perhaps you can encourage her to have her own alone time with friends?

The way you handled it before was wrong on all kinds of levels and just made the triggered feelings all the worse for her.  It is good that you are aware of this now, be careful not to slip back into familiar patterns.
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confusedbloke
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 07:33:47 AM »

she see's it as you don't want to spend time with her and then she gets triggered.   

That, again is exactly true.  She always used to get so stressed and angry and say that I never wanted to spend time with her.  She used to say that all she wanted was a bit of my time.  I gave her as much time as humanly possible - well thats how I felt.  In reality, I dont think I did... .and it got worse the more irate she got... .  I wanted to spend less time with her and the cycle spiralled out of control.  But it was always difficult as I have the kids 3 times a week, I was at work all day (she wasnt working then), and I wanted 1 night per week with friends.  So she always said that I put everyone first before her.  I could never understand it, as she could see I had a busy life, she could see that friends are important... .but this is before i knew about BPD.

Finding a way to validate her concerns and to address her abandonment fears will get you far. 

How? Help! - I guess this is something I will learn in time?  When you say validate, do you mean listen / understand / empathize / sooth?

The way you handled it before was wrong on all kinds of levels and just made the triggered feelings all the worse for her.  It is good that you are aware of this now, be careful not to slip back into familiar patterns.

Oh god I know.  I really did handle it badly.  I want to put her first now, but not be the only thing in my world. Im quite the social butterfly.  Her ex was a loner.  So Im the complete polar opposite.  I enjoy peoples company and am, well a bit of a show off, and like to be the centre of attention.  I can see now how stressful this must have been for her, but again I dont want to lose 'me' in all of this, so I need to work out how to achieve a balance so that she doesnt need to feel threatened and I can still retain my character.
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confusedbloke
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 07:36:22 AM »

And thank you for the comments and advice Stein Smiling (click to insert in post)
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C.Stein
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2016, 08:26:28 AM »

That, again is exactly true.  She always used to get so stressed and angry and say that I never wanted to spend time with her.  She used to say that all she wanted was a bit of my time.  I gave her as much time as humanly possible - well thats how I felt.  In reality, I dont think I did... .and it got worse the more irate she got... . I wanted to spend less time with her and the cycle spiralled out of control.

Yup, been in exactly the same place with my ex.  How do you plan on handling the situation when it seems as if nothing you do is enough?

Finding a way to validate her concerns and to address her abandonment fears will get you far.  

How? Help! - I guess this is something I will learn in time?  When you say validate, do you mean listen / understand / empathize / sooth?

Yes.  If she doesn't feel like you are sensitive to her needs and feelings it will create problems.  

Have you gone through the validation lessons?  If you are not used to that style of communication, and from you have described happened the first time around you aren't, it will seem very unnatural and foreign to you.  However learning how to validate will not only help tremendously with her but also all your other relationships.  It really is one of the most valuable communication skills a person can learn.  It will be tough though and you will have to be very self-aware and give thought to what you say.  If you feel like you are getting out of control take a time out because you can't effectively validate when you are emotionally distraught.  

The way you handled it before was wrong on all kinds of levels and just made the triggered feelings all the worse for her.  It is good that you are aware of this now, be careful not to slip back into familiar patterns.

Oh god I know.  I really did handle it badly.  I want to put her first now, but not be the only thing in my world. Im quite the social butterfly.  Her ex was a loner.  So Im the complete polar opposite.  I enjoy peoples company and am, well a bit of a show off, and like to be the centre of attention.  I can see now how stressful this must have been for her, but again I dont want to lose 'me' in all of this, so I need to work out how to achieve a balance so that she doesnt need to feel threatened and I can still retain my character.

It is good you can see the mistakes you made, it will help you avoid them in the future.  So you are an extrovert ... .what is she?
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C.Stein
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2016, 08:28:17 AM »

That, again is exactly true.  She always used to get so stressed and angry and say that I never wanted to spend time with her.  She used to say that all she wanted was a bit of my time.  I gave her as much time as humanly possible - well thats how I felt.  In reality, I dont think I did... .and it got worse the more irate she got... . I wanted to spend less time with her and the cycle spiralled out of control.

Yup, been in exactly the same place with my ex.  How do you plan on handling the situation when it seems as if nothing you do is enough?

Finding a way to validate her concerns and to address her abandonment fears will get you far.  

How? Help! - I guess this is something I will learn in time?  When you say validate, do you mean listen / understand / empathize / sooth?

Yes.  If she doesn't feel like you are sensitive to her needs and feelings it will create problems.  Leaning how to really listen is the most important thing you can do here IMO.

Have you gone through the validation lessons?  If you are not used to that style of communication, and from you have described happened the first time around you aren't, it will seem very unnatural and foreign to you.  However learning how to validate will not only help tremendously with her but also all your other relationships.  It really is one of the most valuable communication skills a person can learn.  It will be tough though and you will have to be very self-aware and give thought to what you say.  If you feel like you are getting out of control take a time out because you can't effectively validate when you are emotionally distraught.  

The way you handled it before was wrong on all kinds of levels and just made the triggered feelings all the worse for her.  It is good that you are aware of this now, be careful not to slip back into familiar patterns.

Oh god I know.  I really did handle it badly.  I want to put her first now, but not be the only thing in my world. Im quite the social butterfly.  Her ex was a loner.  So Im the complete polar opposite.  I enjoy peoples company and am, well a bit of a show off, and like to be the centre of attention.  I can see now how stressful this must have been for her, but again I dont want to lose 'me' in all of this, so I need to work out how to achieve a balance so that she doesnt need to feel threatened and I can still retain my character.

It is good you can see the mistakes you made, it will help you avoid them in the future.  So you are an extrovert ... .what is she?

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confusedbloke
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2016, 08:44:17 AM »

That, again is exactly true.  She always used to get so stressed and angry and say that I never wanted to spend time with her.  She used to say that all she wanted was a bit of my time.  I gave her as much time as humanly possible - well thats how I felt.  In reality, I dont think I did... .and it got worse the more irate she got... . I wanted to spend less time with her and the cycle spiralled out of control.

Yup, been in exactly the same place with my ex.  How do you plan on handling the situation when it seems as if nothing you do is enough?


Well that's the million dollar question... .  my attitude is different now.  I genuinely want to spend time with her now.  I didn't before as it was suffocating and I didn't know what I was doing... .so I guess I pulled back to avoid all the stress, but that made it worse... .  Hopefully I wont need to provide an answer for you on this one... .

Finding a way to validate her concerns and to address her abandonment fears will get you far.  

How? Help! - I guess this is something I will learn in time?  When you say validate, do you mean listen / understand / empathize / sooth?

Yes.  If she doesn't feel like you are sensitive to her needs and feelings it will create problems.  

Have you gone through the validation lessons?  If you are not used to that style of communication, and from you have described happened the first time around you aren't, it will seem very unnatural and foreign to you.  

However learning how to validate will not only help tremendously with her but also all your other relationships.  It really is one of the most valuable communication skills a person can learn.  It will be tough though and you will have to be very self-aware and give thought to what you say.

I completely believe you.  I will read the lessons and learn as much as I can.

The way you handled it before was wrong on all kinds of levels and just made the triggered feelings all the worse for her.  It is good that you are aware of this now, be careful not to slip back into familiar patterns.

Oh god I know.  I really did handle it badly.  I want to put her first now, but not be the only thing in my world. Im quite the social butterfly.  Her ex was a loner.  So Im the complete polar opposite.  I enjoy peoples company and am, well a bit of a show off, and like to be the centre of attention.  I can see now how stressful this must have been for her, but again I dont want to lose 'me' in all of this, so I need to work out how to achieve a balance so that she doesnt need to feel threatened and I can still retain my character.

It is good you can see the mistakes you made, it will help you avoid them in the future.  So you are an extrovert ... .what is she?

I made a lot Stein... .I can see it now... .But I guess that's been down to my own insecurities also.  She's an introvert for sure... .


Ok, so this is kinda embarrassing, but Id like you to read a FB conversation we've just had. Had to ask about going out with a friend... .

Have I done things right, or am I lining myself up for a fall?

Is it too over the top etc?  I sent this before Ive had chance to read the validation lessons... .

Comments greatly appreciated... .




Me

Cool.  What are you working tomorrow baby?x


Her

will be 9 to 5 again tomorrow baby, why my love x


Me

I was just asking as if you were working late I was gonna ask <friend> if he wanted a pint.  I could see if he wants to come to <pub> for a curry - you fancy a curry tomorrow night?  We could meet you from work etc?x


Her

i dont mind baby but ive got a late night friday, long day again, im seeing you after and staying i just dont want a big night thursday as i will more than struggle friday x


Me

Youre going to have to send your rota each week as I want to plan things around you now, not the other way round xx  I know - Im a smoothy :P. If youre late on Friday perhaps we could meet you town then afterwards - and not bother with tomorrow night? - see am learning !x


Her

i make up my own hours, ill always be 9 to 5 unless i have an event on but ill keep you informed baby and thank you for saying, what so i cant see you tomorrow? yeah i would like a couple after work friday x


Me

No I mean lets spend tomorrow night together and I'll go out with <friend> while youre at work my sweet... Well, thats assuming you want to... .very sure of myself arent I haha x


Her

oh yeah that would be great. baby, i would really prefer that, and im very glad you thought that, im getting happier and more content and more in love every day, youre doing very well xx


Me

Yeah yer doing well also! I want to put you first baby... .and its nice that I can also have a beer with <friend>... .but ur first from now on x


Her

of course you can and that works out really well, i get what i need by spending a night together then you get beers with <friend>, then ill meet you and we can wake up together... .im loving it right now x


Me

I also get what I need spending time with you. But yeah, works out nicely, and we can have a couple after your work, then get a taxi and spend the weekend together x


Her

awww baby im so glad to hear that, i love you so much, mmmmm that sounds nice baby i really like that idea, how is work going less stressful? x



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C.Stein
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2016, 09:07:19 AM »

I made a lot Stein... .I can see it now... .But I guess that's been down to my own insecurities also.  She's an introvert for sure... .

Being an introvert myself I can tell you it will be more difficult traversing the differences, even if she wasn't a borderline.  It comes down to compromise, mostly with respect to you given she is an introvert borderline.  You will need to recognize and respect her shyness and discomfort in social situations.  She will need your support and encouragement so she feels less anxious being in "your world".  She will also need your understanding when she feels uncomfortable or just doesn't want to participate.  :)on't force her just gently encourage and know when to stop.  One of the biggest things about introverts is they need alone time.  Give this to her when she needs it and learn how to recognize that need because she may not come right out and say it.

Ok, so this is kinda embarrassing, but Id like you to read a FB conversation we've just had. Had to ask about going out with a friend... .

Have I done things right, or am I lining myself up for a fall?

Is it too over the top etc?  I sent this before Ive had chance to read the validation lessons... .

Comments greatly appreciated... .

I think you did a good job here.  Personally I would lay off the putting her first comments though as you are setting yourself up to be devalued the moment she thinks you aren't putting her first, valid reason or not.  I see this as putting her on a pedestal and you will eventually fall off ... .don't do it.  In a heathy relationship equal attention is given to individual needs as well as relationship needs.   No one is first or last ... .you are equals.
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confusedbloke
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2016, 10:00:57 AM »

Being an introvert myself I can tell you it will be more difficult traversing the differences, even if she wasn't a borderline.  It comes down to compromise, mostly with respect to you given she is an introvert borderline.  You will need to recognize and respect her shyness and discomfort in social situations.  

She does struggle - she is so much happier in the house, just the 2 of us.  She feels comfortable there.  She doesnt in social situations, unless she's drunk.  Whereas I get bored / frustrated / trapped staying in.  I like to be in the thick of crowds, chatting to people and making them laugh.  That makes me feel happy.  But now you have brought it to my attention I will be more thoughtful.  I used to think that she was ignorant to people I would talk to, but I guess its just shyness.  Its funny really because my best friend is the shyest introvert Ive ever known.  But I guess I never minded because he's a friend.


She will need your support and encouragement so she feels less anxious being in "your world".  She will also need your understanding when she feels uncomfortable or just doesn't want to participate.  :)on't force her just gently encourage and know when to stop.  One of the biggest things about introverts is they need alone time.  Give this to her when she needs it and learn how to recognize that need because she may not come right out and say it.

Its like you know her!  All this completely correct. When we resolved the potential conflict the other day - I gave her space.  And she thanked me for it.  She always needs space when a conflict arose. She kept saying she doesnt like conflict,  But I didnt give her the space - I just kept on and on as I was so frustrated.  I guess its hard for an extro to understand an intro, and vice-versa.

I think you did a good job here.  Personally I would lay off the putting her first comments though as you are setting yourself up to be devalued the moment she thinks you aren't putting her first, valid reason or not.  I see this as putting her on a pedestal and you will eventually fall off ... .don't do it.  In a heathy relationship equal attention is given to individual needs as well as relationship needs.   No one is first or last ... .you are equals.

Yes I thought this as I was typing it.  I guess in a way I was mirroring what she has been saying to me this last week.  I spoke on the phone last night and she apologized profusely for never putting me first and talking her worries through with other people (I used to hate that).  And she has been saying everyday that she will put me first from now on.

But I defo understand what you are saying... .I guess I need to show her that I will consider her feelings and how things affect her, rather than saying "your the best thing in the world" or so to speak.

Thanks Stein... .I have a feeling you may be hearing from me again Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2016, 10:10:40 AM »

I believe that I have to change in order to be with her (i.e. researching BPD, talking to you guys etc), but also SHE has to change.  I'm not going to force her to change (like I've stupidly tried in the past), but I just want to see if she works it out herself.  I will set my boundaries and basically let her know how I expect to be treated - but also I will respect her wishes and will treat her how she expects to be treated (by learning about BPD).  There needs to be mutual respect, BPD or not, I feel. I don't want a one sided relationship as it was.  I cannot live like that... .and I wont live like that.

if your ex has BPD, there are some hard truths you must accept in order to make this work: she is not likely to change. she is likely incapable of treating you as you expect to be treated. there will likely never be mutual respect, certainly not consistently. and this is likely to be a one sided relationship.

that does not mean it cannot work or that you cannot be happy - but accepting this is not going to be an ideal, give and take, mutual respect kind of relationship, where both partners are meeting each other half way, is one of the biggest steps you can take to getting there. this is going to have to come from you. you are going to have to lead. this takes a remarkable amount of strength, in which you meet your own needs, and you meet hers (to the extent that a partner can meet someone elses needs... .no one person can or should fulfill that for another) without neglecting your own.

from: What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship

"Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else."

more discussion here: PERSPECTIVES: The do's and don'ts in a BPD relationship


this has to do with the concept of boundaries, as well. boundaries are not set in order to change the behavior of someone else. they are solely for you. they are your limits, they are where you begin and she ends. communicating in words how you expect to be treated is nice, in an adult relationship. your partner may express agreement with you at the time, smile and nod, and then do the complete opposite.

conversely, a person with BPD needs a partner with strong, and firm boundaries, as they tend to lack them themselves, but at the same time, they are likely to be tested, busted, or railed against. boundaries in this case are best expressed through actions - meaning, for example:

value: "i will not tolerate abuse"

boundary: "if my partner is verbally abusive to me, i will exit the conversation, take a cooling off period, not respond or make things worse."

and that is with the expectation that the dynamic may never change, though through consistency on your end, leading by example, and positive reinforcement, it might.

BOUNDARIES - Living our values (please read beyond the first post)

BOUNDARIES: Case studies (examples, and putting boundaries into practice)

She knows the kind of man I aspire to be and now she's not afraid anymore to give in and just be with me and I totally believe she will.  We have never really spoken like this before.  She is finally opening up after 15 months!  And the reason for that is that she now trusts me, and equally, I finally trust her.  

... .

I just know the more I reinforce the fact that I want her, the more she will feel safer.

at the root of borderline personality disorder is an ingrained, fundamental distrust of others, that you cannot fill by showing her you want her - in fact, when a person so believes, as strongly as they do that the sky is blue, that they are unloveable, and not worthy of love, attempts to show her otherwise can sometimes even be perceived as invalidating. lets say, for example, in my own heart, and my perception of how the world and others have treated me and taught me, that i am an ugly person. you come along and tell me how beautiful i am - its not going to ring true. it will make me uncomfortable. i will struggle tremendously because i cant see it, no matter how lovely/loving your words are. i may even wonder if you have ulterior motives.

that does not preclude showing her love, and treating her as a person you love, and a person that deserves to be loved. it just means that those things will not necessarily equate to trust or safety to her, at least not all the time.

a person with BPD can be vulnerable, and communicate their fears and insecurities to you. i heard it myself. this is subject to change. she will be on her best behavior right now, as she does not want to lose you, and her abandonment fears may be predominate. this may even be used against you in the future. never forget: realistic expectations.

I have struggled to trust her because of the completely mental behaviour that I witnessed, but I certainly played my part in that with my insecurities,

good for you for recognizing this  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post). to reiterate, it takes an emotionally strong person to lead this kind of relationship, one who is not reactive.

Finding a way to validate her concerns

How? Help! - I guess this is something I will learn in time?  When you say validate, do you mean listen / understand / empathize / sooth?

jumping ahead a bit, but these are the communication tools that will be essential for your relationship, your own emotional groundedness, and as C.Stein said, will improve all relationships of all kinds in your life. these include validation. each of these take practice. as mentioned, they will feel foreign, uncomfortable, and awkward. when i learned SET, it felt very robotic. the more i used it, the more natural it became.

Lesson 3

Tools for communication, validation, and reinforcement of good behavior


theres a lot to take in here, i know. theres a lot to be learned, and knowledge is power. it wont sink in over night, and it will take practice. take it at a good, slow pace; likewise, treat your relationship.

i will respond to the conversation in a separate post.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2016, 10:24:59 AM »

i dont have much to offer in terms of the conversation. there are no noticeable "mistakes". youre both communicating and encouraging and patting each other on the back, which is cool. i would say there is a certain level of enmeshment (some of which C.Stein spoke to), and that youre telegraphing a certain level of insecurity, and i would be mindful of that going forward, but this is, more or less, the beginning stage of a new relationship, and i know the feeling. youll learn and get it as you go  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

yes, it is hard for introverts and extroverts to understand each other, but as you see with your best friend, they can make for a dynamite (positive sense of the word... .) relationship  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2016, 10:39:39 AM »

yes, it is hard for introverts and extroverts to understand each other, but as you see with your best friend, they can make for a dynamite (positive sense of the word... .) relationship  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Agreed.  It can lead to a mutually beneficial relationship, but the needs of each partner need to be recognized and respected or it will lead to conflict.  The most important thing to remember about introverts is they need alone time "recharge" where extroverts recharge in social situations.  It may be hard for her to understand this so you may need to help her understand and also show her you understand her requirements as well, not only through words but actions as well.  I will note you will need to tread carefully here as you might unknowingly trigger an abandonment fear.
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2016, 10:50:48 AM »

She does struggle - she is so much happier in the house, just the 2 of us.  She feels comfortable there.  She doesnt in social situations, unless she's drunk.  Whereas I get bored / frustrated / trapped staying in.  I like to be in the thick of crowds, chatting to people and making them laugh.  That makes me feel happy.  But now you have brought it to my attention I will be more thoughtful.  I used to think that she was ignorant to people I would talk to, but I guess its just shyness.  Its funny really because my best friend is the shyest introvert Ive ever known.  But I guess I never minded because he's a friend.

She also feels safe at home where in crowds she probably feels trapped and insecure.  I am not comfortable in crowds and sometimes I feel claustrophobic.   I'm not really good at small talk so that just makes the discomfort all the worse and I suspect she is the same.  Some people will interpret this as being aloof but it is not.  Back in my party days though I didn't have a problem socializing at all, as long as there was something to take the edge off.  I kinda went from a semi-extrovert to an introvert over the course of my life.


Its like you know her!  All this completely correct. When we resolved the potential conflict the other day - I gave her space.  And she thanked me for it.  She always needs space when a conflict arose. She kept saying she doesnt like conflict,  But I didnt give her the space - I just kept on and on as I was so frustrated.  I guess its hard for an extro to understand an intro, and vice-versa.

As an introvert she will probably need more time to gather her thoughts and you need to allow this.  Being overbearing and forcing an issue will lead to resentment on her part.  Listening involves more than just your ears!

Yes I thought this as I was typing it.  I guess in a way I was mirroring what she has been saying to me this last week.  I spoke on the phone last night and she apologized profusely for never putting me first and talking her worries through with other people (I used to hate that).  And she has been saying everyday that she will put me first from now on.

But I defo understand what you are saying... .I guess I need to show her that I will consider her feelings and how things affect her, rather than saying "your the best thing in the world" or so to speak.

As much as you don't want to put her on a pedestal, don't encourage her to put you on one either.  As good as it might feel to the both of you it is not healthy and it will lead to the same place you have already been.

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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2016, 07:50:09 PM »

I think the lessons on this site are invaluable. Stein and Once I can't thank you enough.  I actually feel like a better person since you both pointed me towards them. And gave me good advice. I have been an avoidant all my life... .never willing to commit.   Such self realisations. Thanks dudes!

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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2016, 08:12:38 PM »

any time, confusedbloke. like i said, this stuff wont sink in over night, and a lot of the things like the communication tools take practice. validation, for example, is such a valuable skill, and it will better ALL of your relationships, but it can be uniquely challenging to validate a distorted perspective.

there is always hope for improvement. for inspiration, you might have a look at the Success Stories

i hope you will continue posting. we are here for you every step of the way in this.
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« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2016, 08:53:02 PM »

Thanks once 

I met her at the pub tonight and she was quieter than normal... this time I understood she had a tough shift and left her tonight.  We discussed it later and for once I didn't get paranoid thinking it was me. She just needed some alone time. Slowly stating to understand it. But tbf it's how we should be with anyone BPD or not

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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2016, 05:09:15 AM »

She also feels safe at home where in crowds she probably feels trapped and insecure.  I am not comfortable in crowds and sometimes I feel claustrophobic.   I'm not really good at small talk so that just makes the discomfort all the worse and I suspect she is the same.  Some people will interpret this as being aloof but it is not.  

Yes it all makes sense now.  She is exactly the same.  I did think she was just being rude and I felt embarrassed by it.

Back in my party days though I didn't have a problem socializing at all, as long as there was something to take the edge off.  I kinda went from a semi-extrovert to an introvert over the course of my life.

Again, yes, once she's had a couple of drinks she settles in and relaxes.  Its been really difficult to get my head around it as Im not like that.  But now you have pointed it out, I feel relief actually.

As an introvert she will probably need more time to gather her thoughts and you need to allow this.  Being overbearing and forcing an issue will lead to resentment on her part.  Listening involves more than just your ears!

Understood! As I said we went for a drink last night and when we met she seemed subdued.  Now normally I would have taken that as a personal insult but I listened to what you guys have said and I gave her, her space and in 15 minutes she was chatty again.  We discussed it later and again she thanked me for understanding.  And also I was totally calm.  I think because of the help you are giving me its really making me understand not just her, but all relationships.  Its making me think about my past relationships and the role I have played in them.

Arrggh.  In my previous post I meant I left her to it... .not left her - (that would be the worst thing to do!).  I think the whole introvert / extrovert thing has really made me understand what triggers both of us tbf.


As much as you don't want to put her on a pedestal, don't encourage her to put you on one either.  As good as it might feel to the both of you it is not healthy and it will lead to the same place you have already been.

Ok I will tone it down slowly until this kind of talking stops.  You are right its not sustainable.  I guess at the moment Im just trying to let her know that Im hers and I think shes doing the same.
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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2016, 08:50:02 AM »

I met her at the pub tonight and she was quieter than normal... this time I understood she had a tough shift and left her tonight.  We discussed it later and for once I didn't get paranoid thinking it was me. She just needed some alone time. Slowly stating to understand it. But tbf it's how we should be with anyone BPD or not

CB,

This is something you are going to have to work on.  In your conversation you posted she said she had a hard day coming up.  Now you handled this well with respect to your request to going out that night.  That said, with her being an introvert you need to recognize she will need time to relax and unwind after work, particularly after a hard day.  Introverts also need time to prepare themselves mentally for socializing.  Going out for drinks after a hard day at work when you would much rather go home and unwind will be very very difficult for her.  This is where you have to recognize what she needs because she herself might not even realize she needs it.  

I will speculate she agreed to go out for drinks to avoid disappointing you but in reality she really didn't want to go and the reasons for not wanting to go have nothing to do with you.  If she continues to do this for you it will lead to resentment.  

Maybe a more appropriate suggestion for time together after a hard day at work would have been bringing some take-out over to her place, or cooking for her at her place and a quiet evening in.  This would allow you to do something nice for her, show her you recognize what she needs and it would be a very supportive and loving thing to do.  It is an action that would be deeply appreciated even if she doesn't say it or realize it ... .and you shouldn't point it out to her either.
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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2016, 09:41:21 AM »

Hi C Stein,

I really appreciate you telling me these things.  I feel like Im getting an insight as to how she thinks and feels.

I could tell that she didnt really want to go.  We got back to mine after I picked her up and she had brought some leftover food from an event.  After we had that I said "do you still fancy going to pub?"... .and she said she didnt mind... .  I did get the impression she just wanted to stay in... .  As Ive had the kids the last 2 nights, I needed to get out.  It really is good to know that she is an introvert... .It answers so many questions... .  And now I recognize it with my friend... .as he is very happy in his own company... .  He can go a whole week without seeing anyone... .  It would drive me insane... .  One night on my own kills me  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Our biggest issue before we split was this subject.  The whole going out / staying in thing... .and her not thinking I wanted to be with her... .  I used to see it as needy and clingy, and I just wanted to socialise.  It caused no end of stress for us both as she saw it as a betrayal that I wanted to spend time away from her.  Then when all the rages, rapid mood swings and physical abuse came out, it made me run for the hills.  I needed to get away from her even more.  Which made it worse.

But being away from her made me think a lot and with what you guys have said, I want to get it right and be educated this time.

I guess its going to have to be about compromise?  One week, go to the pub and the next I'll treat her to some dinner... .  We both have to have our needs met - not just one sided.
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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2016, 09:58:05 AM »

Our biggest issue before we split was this subject.  The whole going out / staying in thing... .and her not thinking I wanted to be with her... . I used to see it as needy and clingy, and I just wanted to socialise.  It caused no end of stress for us both as she saw it as a betrayal that I wanted to spend time away from her.  Then when all the rages, rapid mood swings and physical abuse came out, it made me run for the hills.  I needed to get away from her even more.  Which made it worse.

we all need alone time and buddy-buddy time. its been a place of tension for your relationship as you say.

some of it may be needy or clingy, but it may be more about whats under the surface. she may feel needy and clingy, and feel shame over those feelings. what she actually communicates (rages, acting out, mood swings) may mask whats under the surface.

she may, as an introvert, not want to go out. but she may resent you if you dont invite her. if you do invite her she may feel pressured. as someone with BPD, she may feel shame over all of it, her dependency, and indecision. odds are none of this is conscious or something she could communicate.  

its a great illustration of being between a rock and a hard place. you dont want to enable, or plan or make decisions for her because ultimately you will be resented (and C.Stein gave you great advice in stating you dont want to point these things out to her). on the other hand you care about your partner, you want them to be happy, you want to spend time with her.

the balance is a combination of living your life without fear of the consequences (walking on eggshells, or trying to read her mind) and good communication, as well as picking your battles. you may never be on the same page about this, there may not always be a good compromise. you may, at times, have to choose to go out with friends, and she may feel betrayed or abandoned. you can cross that bridge if it comes. you can validate her fears/concerns without JADEing (justify, argue, defend, explain) your point of view, and need to be around friends.

have you had a chance to read about JADE?
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« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2016, 10:14:59 AM »

I really appreciate you telling me these things.  I feel like Im getting an insight as to how she thinks and feels.

I could tell that she didnt really want to go.  We got back to mine after I picked her up and she had brought some leftover food from an event.  After we had that I said "do you still fancy going to pub?"... .and she said she didnt mind... . I did get the impression she just wanted to stay in... . As Ive had the kids the last 2 nights, I needed to get out.  It really is good to know that she is an introvert... .It answers so many questions... . And now I recognize it with my friend... .as he is very happy in his own company... . He can go a whole week without seeing anyone... . It would drive me insane... . One night on my own kills me  Smiling (click to insert in post)

This is something you really need to work on CB.  This one single thing will be the most difficult for her to deal with, both with respect to being an introvert and borderline.  She will need to understand your needs without being threatened by them and it will be very difficult for her.  You will almost certainly have to sacrifice more here than she will ... .but you know that right?

Our biggest issue before we split was this subject.  The whole going out / staying in thing... .and her not thinking I wanted to be with her... . I used to see it as needy and clingy, and I just wanted to socialise.  It caused no end of stress for us both as she saw it as a betrayal that I wanted to spend time away from her.  Then when all the rages, rapid mood swings and physical abuse came out, it made me run for the hills.  I needed to get away from her even more.  Which made it worse.

It may be needy or clingy but I think it is more her being an introvert.  It takes a lot of energy and metal preparation to socialize for an introvert.  What you gives you energy is exhausting to her.  You will need to understand and recognize this.

The best solution that I have seen with regard to this would not be considered conventional by any means.  Each person does their own thing by themselves and also does things together as a couple.  I think this is a very healthy approach as it meets the needs of the individual as well as the relationship.  A married couple I know even take vacations independently of one another.  That said it can lead to severe problems with a borderline if you are not careful.  You will need to find a way to satisfy your needs without her feeling threatened.  This will be a big hurdle for you to get over and may be one you find needing to get over time and time again given her borderline traits.

But being away from her made me think a lot and with what you guys have said, I want to get it right and be educated this time.

I guess its going to have to be about compromise?  One week, go to the pub and the next I'll treat her to some dinner... . We both have to have our needs met - not just one sided.

You will have to make more compromises than her.  This is part of the borderline package.  I wouldn't recommend going overboard with planning things.  Certainly some planning will be good as it will allow her to prepare herself for socializing, but it is also critical for you to recognize when she is incapable of doing what you want to do "in the moment".  This is part of the "listening" I was talking about.  Listening is more than just listening to what she is saying.  It will also take a lot of understanding and patience on your part.

some of it may be needy or clingy, but it may be more about whats under the surface. she may feel needy and clingy, and feel shame over those feelings. what she actually communicates (rages, acting out, mood swings) may mask whats under the surface.

she may, as an introvert, not want to go out. but she may resent you if you dont invite her. if you do invite her she may feel pressured. as someone with BPD, she may feel shame over all of it, her dependency, and indecision. odds are none of this is conscious or something she could communicate.  

I second this!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2016, 10:52:00 AM »

Wow this is getting more and more complicated, the deeper I dig.  Talk about peeling an onion!

she may, as an introvert, not want to go out. but she may resent you if you dont invite her. if you do invite her she may feel pressured. as someone with BPD, she may feel shame over all of it, her dependency, and indecision. odds are none of this is conscious or something she could communicate. 

I like going out with my friends on a Sunday afternoon (once a month as I have kids every second weekend).  I actually invited her yesterday to come with us.  She was very happy about that and she is good fun once the beers have calmed her.

I think her new job will do our relationship the world of good.  Its a position of responsibility for her and it also gives me the chance to go out with friends, when she is working.  She again mentioned it last night how grateful she was that I swapped my nights over so I could go out tonight and spend last night with her.  usually I wouldnt have.  I would have just gone out and not seen her for 2 nights.  I did everything wrong before.  And oddly enough its made me think about my failed marriage.  I did the exact same thing with her.  I always said I felt like a caged tiger when I had to stay in.

its a great illustration of being between a rock and a hard place. you dont want to enable, or plan or make decisions for her because ultimately you will be resented (and C.Stein gave you great advice in stating you dont want to point these things out to her). on the other hand you care about your partner, you want them to be happy, you want to spend time with her.

Incredibly accurate.

the balance is a combination of living your life without fear of the consequences (walking on eggshells, or trying to read her mind) and good communication, as well as picking your battles. you may never be on the same page about this, there may not always be a good compromise. you may, at times, have to choose to go out with friends, and she may feel betrayed or abandoned. you can cross that bridge if it comes. you can validate her fears/concerns without JADEing (justify, argue, defend, explain) your point of view, and need to be around friends.



have you had a chance to read about JADE?

Just read the post on JADE. Ha.  Yup I did all that. Very interesting. I did all that as it felt like I was dealing with a child (obv not the arguing bit). But it got me nowhere... .Just made things a 1000 times worse.  I belittled her a lot, coz I couldnt believe how ridiculous she was being.

Without knowing it, Ive actually not been doing any of that since we re-engaged.  I dont want to be nasty or belittle her anymore. I guess its about acceptance.  I accept that she is like this.  I accept that she could trigger easily over something that I think is not an issue in the slightest.  So now Ive accepted that, I want to learn as much as I can to minimise said triggers, coz at the end of the day she is a really nice person.  I wouldnt be with her if she wasnt.

A guy at work asked if I want to go to the races next weekend.  I said im already going with the kids... .I didnt tell him I was going with my BPDgf also. Hes a bit of a Lothario, and Im nervous of saying that he might be joining us with his son.  She used to hate it, I mean really hate it when plans altered.  If its going to be just us and the kids, then all of a sudden hes joining us it, Im concerned it will cause friction.  To me, its the "more the merrier"... .  To her she just wants a 'family day', with no other outside influences.  Im not going to mention it yet, as its not certain he will be coming.  But if its agreed and he comes to meet us - I dont know how to approach the subject.

In a normal relationship, I would expect my partner to be "oh yeah thats cool, tell him to come with us".  But this isnt normal.  I just don't want to compromise my own integrity.  I want to be free to make decisions in a way that is acceptable to her... .

Tough one

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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2016, 10:57:52 AM »

A guy at work asked if I want to go to the races next weekend.  I said im already going with the kids... .I didnt tell him I was going with my BPDgf also. Hes a bit of a Lothario, and Im nervous of saying that he might be joining us with his son.  She used to hate it, I mean really hate it when plans altered.  If its going to be just us and the kids, then all of a sudden hes joining us it, Im concerned it will cause friction.  To me, its the "more the merrier"... . To her she just wants a 'family day', with no other outside influences.  Im not going to mention it yet, as its not certain he will be coming.  But if its agreed and he comes to meet us - I dont know how to approach the subject.

In a normal relationship, I would expect my partner to be "oh yeah thats cool, tell him to come with us".  But this isnt normal.  I just don't want to compromise my own integrity.  I want to be free to make decisions in a way that is acceptable to her... .

Tough one

Doesn't have to be tough.  If you want him to come but she wants a family day then you will need to give her a family day in addition to an outing with family and friends.  This is something you should plan before you even bring up your work friend joining you.
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2016, 11:20:26 AM »

Sorry stein, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean another outing?
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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2016, 11:45:26 AM »

Sorry stein, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean another outing?

Yes.  Maybe something like this?

Hey honey, my friend and his son might want to go with us to the races.  I was thinking we could have a family day picnic (with specifics of when and where), just us and the kids and make the races outing a friends and family day out.  What do you think?


To me this shows that you are considering her feelings (and yours) and providing a specific alternative to address her needs.  
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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2016, 02:13:50 PM »

Wow thank you. That's fantastic advice. She would really appreciate that. She really would. I want to consider her feelings from now on. Do want it to work.  I guess it's nice even if there were no BPD traits. It's just thoughtful.

Thank you  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2016, 03:00:10 PM »

My pleasure CB.  Sometimes it is hard to see the forest through the trees.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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