S and uBPDH will talk tomorrow after 4 months without contact

[Dizzy Princess]

My uBPDH reached out to my S21 after 4 months without contact.  The fight happened because my H wanted my son to quit college and go work fulltime instead of studying and basically called our S a waste of life and told him he didn't deserve to be pursue his dreams. Our son stood up for himself and said he wanted to be happy... .H became a dictator and said "this is my house and you have to do what I say." The ugly truth is that H started raging and then it got physical between father and son... .

Our S left the night of the fight and has been staying with friends for the past 4 months. S is really angry at his dad and wants H to realize the consequences of his actions, I agree but I have talked to him about what I am learning about BPD; S is not not about to give H a free pass for his behavior and that is not what I am asking just trying to have him look at the situation differently so he can "stop making it worse before making it better"

S is also concerned how my H will react after this encounter if it will create more tension for in our home.  it's a very stressful situation.  God help them!

how to set boundaries in this situation... .

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[Sunfl0wer]

I agree but I have talked to him about what I am learning about BPD; S is not not about to give H a free pass for his behavior and that is not what I am asking just trying to have him look at the situation differently so he can "stop making it worse before making it better"

This sounds tricky.  If I were in your sons place, I think that after a fight that got physical, I would really not be so inclined for either of my parents to tell me what I can do better.  I would really really really need tons of validation that physical violence was addressed as being unacceptable FIRST.

It sounds like S is concerned for you to a degree, in a way he is fair to be concerned, in another way, this seems sad and possible parentification of him to want to hold back sharing his feelings to protect you guys.

What has happened to address your husband participating in violence towards your son?

Did anyone call the police on him?

[Dizzy Princess]

The physical violence that took place was actually my S21 against his dad.  S21 grabbed H when he tried to leave.

My H typically wants everyone in our immediate family to listen to him even if he is being illogical to us and then wants everyone to agree with him and won't listen to anyone else.  He does the the circular arguments, blame shifting, victim thing and then either leaves or goes to bed while the rest of us are left defeated.

This time after pretty much telling my son that he was a waste of life because he was study at the U not working FT at a job H had gotten him (they worked together at a construction site for a year and that was awful for S21 because H would lay in on him going to and from the job and then would be completely different in front of everyone else). My son stood up for himself and said, "no, I am going back to something miserable, I am doing something that makes me happy and if I am not working FT it's because you said you would support me as long as I was studying FT."

I tried to validate S21's statement that was what we [H and I] agreed on this point, so H said that this was between him and S21 and that he either went back to the construction site or he could leave - he was tired of being used... .  H then said he was leaving to get some air and my 6'3 S21 grabbed him and said, "no you're not leaving, you stay and listen to me... ." H started yelling at S that S21 should get a knife and kill him already... ." then H started yelling that we should call the police because S21 was trying to kill him... .S21 was then holding H in a headlock and wouldn't let go - I was yelling for them both to stop... .H is yelling that S21 is choking him... .S19 who is 6'4" and had been in another room came and pulled them apart; my D12 who was also up to that point in another room came in crying and also joined us... .

I asked everyone to please breath and sit and not talk... .S21 then started having a panic attack hyperventilating something he has never done before; H said (to S21 ) "that's good, you should feel bad , that's what you get for doing this to me... ." H then stated that he would leave since it was clear nobody cared about what he said... .S21 then said, no he would leave, he never wanted to do this again and it was clear that H only cared about himself... .I asked everyone to stop talking again... .H then proceeded to apologize and hug everyone and told S21 he should stay and went off to bed.  At that point S21 broke down crying saying he wanted to die and would break up with his gf so they would never go through this, etc. etc. etc.

My S19 and D12 and I all tried to comfort S21... .we told each other that H was wrong and this shouldn't have happened; S21 wanted to leave with nothing walking... .I asked S21 to let me drive him to his friend's house; we talked for almost 2 hours, S21 going back and forth between hating H or self hate talk and finally calmed down ate then left in his car with money and clothes.

So boundaries that need to be set are many and complicate:

H has been saying our son crossed the line and is dead to him; that he doesn't want to hear S21's name nor see his picture.  In fact he said he wanted S21 to get all his things out of the house because he knew I was talking to him in secret. At that time I still hadn't found this site nor heard of BPD and said yes I would continue to talk to our son and support him because everything that happened that night was wrong - and I wasn't choosing to accept anyone's behavior. So a couple of weeks went by and H asked me for a divorce because although he loved me, he knew I was sad to have our family separated and our H should come back but he couldn't be there because S21 had crossed the line. I told him then that if he wanted to get a lawyer that was his choice because I was still trying to get him in to stop being so miserable and go to therapy. At that time he said he had talked to his friend about what happened - this is the 1st time EVER I then called friends of ours and told them everything

Then at the end of March I went out of town for a week with D12 when my mother was in the hospital (he said he didn't want me to call him during my leave) and I was afraid I'd come home and my H would have gotten rid of all S21's things so I kept in touch with

[Dizzy Princess]

  sorry my post timed out - here is the end of it which I managed to rescue 

Sorry to go on and on about this one situation but I guess the details do matter.

S19 who let me know nothing much was happening at home. So finally last week H says he misses S21 and wants to work things out... .but again it's between him and S21; S21 let's me know he is anxious about meeting up with not going to apologize or forgive;  I have tried talking about BPD and not suggesting S21 should give H a free pass on any behavior but i have told S21 I don't want to walk on eggshells with him H or S21 anymore and I am working up the strength to be supportive to both but need to take care of myself, too just so overwhelmed.

[Sunfl0wer]

I am sorry for replying/assuming without clear facts!

Hope to come back and post again after I am done with things here.

(At least the bump in the meantime may help)

[Dizzy Princess]

Thank you for the support sunfl0wer -

appreciate any and all feedback because I have never been able to talk about this with anyone who's been there... .My T has been validating but until now it was like I was being treated for having my own abandonment issues and putting up with a lot of bad behavior without a clear reason why but working on building up my self esteem... .Finding out about BPD doesn't automatically change anything but now I have something really tangible to work with - thank you BPD family!

Meeting update:  my S called me a couple of hours ago for a suggestion about where to meet up... .I recommended a public place that had a sandwich shop that afforded a bit of privacy... .And reminded him he could leave if it got awkward.  S is still waiting for H to show up at the location - no replies to texts either so frustrating so nerve racking

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow! That IS a lot going on! 

I am so so sorry! 

(My mind is flawed, I did my best to process it)

I really wish to say a whole bunch of really validating things for the position you are in and how difficult it is, I just honestly cannot imagine being in your position, with several of the older kids being there seeing this go down, or close by, man!

I think what I was grasping at in my first post to you was that it seemed like you were trying to soothe your son by explaining to him tools that you were working on as if that would translate to S21 using the tools to deescalate dad, rather than validate what S21 actual experience may be.

I now see that I had an incorrect view of things, and so much more is going on.

----------------

So, it sounds like there was an agreement between H, you and S21 about supporting S21 if he either worked full time or went to school full time?  And now H is taking his offer back because of his ill feelings?

How do things usually play out when you two decide upon things as a couple such as this? 

My T has been validating but until now it was like I was being treated for having my own abandonment issues and putting up with a lot of bad behavior without a clear reason why but working on building up my self esteem... .

This is so hard too!  (I feel like I am not much help here!)

My own son is about the age of your son.  I can completely seeing my ex being in a rage and antagonizing my son into a position where he could just loose it.  Actually, my ex TRIED to make him loose it!  I don't know that your son was being egged on by H or not, I just have compassion for the kid for wanting to do college FT and having an expectation and such.

Unfortunately, the reality is that he is 21 and he does need to know that no one is obligated to support his wishes, even though it is super super crummy.

Gosh, I do wish I had words of wisdom for you.

How are things now?

Did you hear from either of them?

[SingOn]

So this is happening now? Hugs to you!

My understanding is that you and H agreed to support S21 through studying, but that H reneged for reasons unknown and S21 felt trapped and mistreated (in the car situations, for instance). Then the big, horrible fight occurred. H wants to reconcile, but is in the habit of having things his way or the highway (bullying). And you are stuck in the middle of two emotionally distraught people you love. You would like to have an open relationship with S without having to worry about H getting upset.

I have a D18 who has had a fallout with my H because of extremely abusive language he leveraged at her during several of his rages during a stressful (but in no way her fault) time over the holidays. He has tried to reconcile with her, but she cannot forgive him. The advice my T gave me was to clarify what I can do (listen and validate D, and also H when I'm ready) and what I can't do. How really, it's between my D and her father, and how I should not push her before she's ready or expect her to heal anytime soon... .or ever. It was scary to hear that, because I value family harmony so much, but also a relief because I don't have to worry about controlling it. Just accepting it. Which is hard, and includes grieving, but I now see it's simply beyond my control... .

If things go badly - which they may - S will benefit greatly from empathy from you. It seems to me that you're wanting so badly for reconciliation, and believe me, I totally know that feeling - but it may get worse before it gets better, which may make things worse for you at home (and communicating openly with S). Are you ready for that? H may need empathy too, but that's difficult when he's being the bully.

On the other hand, getting things out into the open could improve things. And that would be so wonderful! But the reality is, it's out of your control.

At any rate, thinking of you now and hoping for the best!

[Dizzy Princess]

Yes it is all happening now ... .

My D12 had a school show so I was supporting her when H called at 7pm and asked me to get our other 2 kids and meet up for dinner as he was going to meet up with S21; I calmly explained I couldn't talk nor go since I was at our D's school show; he asked me to call and join them as soon as it was done; that wasn't until 9pm. So I called and H said they'd already eaten if I wanted him to bring something home... .So far so good we'll see what happens when he gets home.

Sunfl0wer - as a couple I thought we had made many decisions about how we would raise our kids and so many of those agreements went out the window because as as SingOn correctly identifies H turns into a bully because he changes his mind about things... .Yes we had agreed that we would support our kids through college so they wouldn't have to work because neither one of us had parents help us study.  my H didn't finish HS and I left college 9 credits short of getting my BSc. In my FOO my F had alcoholism and depression and probably my M had NPD but my parents didn't go to HS at all and none of my grandparents went to elementary school. I grew up with my illiterate maternal grandma and became everyone's secretary and translator by age 7. H lost his parents at 7 & his F was a teacher but he died before H started school.  So it wasn't S21's expectations we said this because we have very strong reasons to want our children in college... .which makes the whole situation we are in even more heartbreaking.  My son is a self taught musician who got accepted to Berklee College of Music -no small task- we couldn't afford it so S is in community college and in a band producing music no vices nothing illegal or immoral going on just a lot of hard work... .

Yes I want reconciliation, but it would be nice if H could recognize S's accomplishments and sadly that may never happen

SingOn you hit the nail on the head with Having to accept whatever happens and that it is not up to me to fix it... .Out of my control... .But still working on forgiving myself for my limitations.

So it's 10:25 H walked in and I went to great him and he was receptive... .will wait for him to bring it up... .Preparing myself to listen... .Still uneasy but not scared

[Dizzy Princess]

happy yes HAPPY to report that as per H, S and H were able to sit down and talk and set some goals for the future (still waiting to hear from S about what happened)... .

H said that S was angry at him but that he was going to have to accept that because he wanted S to be part of the family. H said he took back the things that he said to S and wanted to let go of the past and start fresh from here forward. H said he told S he had a right to come home whenever he wanted too.

While H was talking I didn't interrupt or ask questions, validating or not, but I made sure to insert "uh ha" and "that's good" here and there and say, "I'm glad you two are working this out... ." This morning H was pricing airline tickets for the 5 of us to travel to Australia

So, I am letting myself feel good today. I am sure everyone out there gets this, but when something "good" or may I say "normal" happens not BPD like it's just a relief, sometimes it's very hard to accept... .that sinister foreboding wondering if this is real? and how long will it last? that doesn't let you enjoy the moment and be here and now. The difference  today is that now I have BPD Family and I am on my way back to getting myself back! I know that I can improve things by not trying to control of other's emotions, especially not uBPDH + I deserve to feel good! 

wishing you peace

[SingOn]

That is great news! Sounds like H felt the consequences of his actions and took responsibility! You were there to validate, on both sides, I assume. That sinister foreboding feeling of doubting the good times is often all too real, and could be the topic of a whole other thread. I hope you do enjoy the day, knowing that you'll have lots more opportunities to practice things you're learning here. But for now, feel good!

[Dizzy Princess]

I did enjoy the day and night singOn

still waiting on S21 to let me know his takeaway... .but for now my H said that S21 was coming the next day to help S19 with a building a new computer and S19 confirmed that this indeed did happen while I was at work yesterday (both S21 + S19 had the day off) and I am glad that the tension cause by the H not wanting to hear S21's name, etc. is now lifted -

Boundary that will be set in the near future that if H ever decides again he doesn't want to hear S21's name or see his picture then he will have to shut his eyes and cover his ears because this ain't gonna wash anymore 

will start new thread about doubting good feelings... .

take care of yourselves!