Fighting over children visiting grandma

[Zon]

I am angry and frustrated.  My wife seems to be able to find any reason to limit the time our kids can visit with my mom.  I got them over to my mom's house yesterday for a couple of hours, but she found reasons to pick them up after those hours.  They would have stayed longer.  Grrrrrr! 

Note:  her mom has been visiting us from out of the country for six weeks.

Our S5 blurted out that I had decided for he and D11 to visit my mom next Friday.  Not all that subtle.     I had already blocked out the time on the calendar, so she could not claim she "forgot" again.

Anyway, that started a weaving argument that basically boiled down to:

• Her:  I will not go along with it unless you let them see your stepmom equally.



• Me:  I have asked my stepmom and was told that she did not want them to visit due to how messy her house is.



• Her:  If we divorce, you can do whatever you want with them.  Until then, I decline letting them visit her.



• Me:  You will not have to see my mom, and I *am* going to take them over there.



• Her:  I get no respect from any of your family.  I get zero respect from both of your moms.  I cannot allow my kids to visit anyone that gives me no respect.



• Her:  Also, I am going to be spending time with them and my mom since my mom is leaving two days afterwards.

Additional note:  we will be visiting her mom in less than two months.

I was very tempted to tell her where to stuff the marriage with that attitude that I have faced for years.    She added that she did not know where we stand with the marriage.  I am sure she is blaming our current situation on her behavior, but it was like this long before I rebelled.

I really am at the end of patience regarding what is allowed with her.  I am going to take them over there, if not Friday, the week after.  She can be the one to ask for divorce if she cannot handle it.  BPD + NPD = insanity   Fortunately, I am more ready to call her bluffs these days because I cannot stay like this.

This was a partial rant.  Thank you for your patience.

[formflier]

Arguing over kids is tough.  They belong to both so compromise is in order. 

Can you focus more on validation?  Let her choose visit date first, then you.


However, don't back down on the concept of a r/s with your mom.

[flourdust]

Wow, Zon. I'm dealing with a very similar issue. My wife and I are separated, heading toward divorce, and I wanted to take my D10 to visit with my parents and brothers over Memorial Day weekend.

My wife was opposed, for reasons that seemed to be about her feelings about my family (mostly paranoid ideation that they would all be talking about her).

I listened to her complaints. I gave her one concrete promise, which was that there would be no talk of divorce or our relationship in front of D10 (which was my intent all along, anyway). She was still upset and complaining, but I did gently tell her that we were going on the trip without trying to persuade her to see my side or get her to verbally agree to it.

By the next day, she seemed to feel validated enough by my listening to her that she stopped objecting to the trip.

So, I guess what worked for me was:

1) Telling her about the trip

2) Letting her fully express her objections, fears, and concerns

3) Validate her feelings

4) Agree with any actually reasonable requests

5) Go on the trip, even without securing explicit consent

[Zon]

Arguing over kids is tough.  They belong to both so compromise is in order. 

Can you focus more on validation?  Let her choose visit date first... .then you.

It would be easier if she only had BPD traits.  Her NPD does not like compromise.  Amusingly, since I compromise, she sees that as weak, yet she complains that I am not assertive enough.  No wonder I needed a T to clear my head and still do!

I am not understanding.  Her mom has been living in our house for about six weeks, and we will be visiting her out of the country for another two weeks.  I was trying to pick a day far enough in advance that my wife could not say that I gave her little warning (standard excuse of hers) to prepare herself.  However, when I do give her adequate time, she find excuses to limit the visit.  If the visit is after her mom leaves, she will come up with a different excuse.

Nearly every excuse she has made, I have tried to please her.  She does not want to see my mom, so I plan it where she does not see her.  She then makes accusations about my mom as if she is contaminating the kids.  I am an animal at the circus made to jump through ever changing hoops.  Her rule that I need to make both my moms have equal time with the kids ignores that her mom sees them about ten times more per year than they do.  Hence, I am very frustrated.

If you meant that my wife chooses a date that they can see my mom first, it will never be.  I have tried that before.  She actually gets offended by me asking when I could take the kids over.  I may as well just do and pay the consequences because the consequences will be the same either way. 

However... .don't back down on the concept of a r/s with your mom.

No fears.  I will not.  I did that for over 10 years when I was more foolish.  It accomplished nothing.

[formflier]

Do the right thing, ask.  Use healthy r/s skills.

If your wife gets mad, that is her deal.

Then take the kids over to see your parents.

FF

[Zon]

Wow, Zon. I'm dealing with a very similar issue. My wife and I are separated, heading toward divorce, and I wanted to take my D10 to visit with my parents and brothers over Memorial Day weekend.

My wife was opposed, for reasons that seemed to be about her feelings about my family (mostly paranoid ideation that they would all be talking about her).

I listened to her complaints. I gave her one concrete promise, which was that there would be no talk of divorce or our relationship in front of D10 (which was my intent all along, anyway). She was still upset and complaining, but I did gently tell her that we were going on the trip without trying to persuade her to see my side or get her to verbally agree to it.

By the next day, she seemed to feel validated enough by my listening to her that she stopped objecting to the trip.

So, I guess what worked for me was:

1) Telling her about the trip

2) Letting her fully express her objections, fears, and concerns

3) Validate her feelings

4) Agree with any actually reasonable requests

5) Go on the trip, even without securing explicit consent

That does sound very close to the same circumstances.  I wish I knew what to validate for my wife.  Obviously, I cannot validate her "no one in your family respects me" comment.  "Yes, you are right.  You get zero respect from them."    Refuting it by giving examples of how they respect her has worked the best in the past, but that is no longer working.  She now uses those as examples of how they are placating her.

I am feeling that my fledgling boundaries are driving her more against anything I suggest.

I have no choice but to let her fully express her objections, fears and concerns.  I have no clue how to validate her feelings.  She is a moving target.  If I refute what she says or validate what she says, she takes that as non-acceptance and counters with a different objection.  I have written in my journal some of our arguments.  She can go five or more arguments deep on a single issue.  Regarding #4, her requests are almost always reasonable.  That is the issue.  She will find something to block a long visit.  The last visit was done that way.  She had accepted it but "forgot" about it, so she arranged for needing to take D11 to the store for dance shoes on that day.  I accepted that since it was needed.  When I look back at it, I now realize that she could have taken her any day before that.

Important note:  my wife is very good at remembering schedules months out.

[Zon]

Do the right thing... .ask.  Use healthy r/s skills.

If your wife gets mad, that is her deal.

Then take the kids over to see your parents.

FF

Healthy r/s skills?  I am an INTP; not a magician!   

Thank you.  I will try, again.  I will ask when would be good for her to let the kids stay a longer time.  The answer I hear in my head from her will be a no followed by multiple reasons.  This is the same mom that my wife labeled as "evil" and one time exclaimed that she wished she could "plunge a knife into her heart".  I predict a slight argument.    I think that is why I have been moving towards doing what I want, within reason.

My wife gets mad and finds ways to sabotage visits.  See my reply to flourdust about some of her tactics.

I still remember a time we all went over there.  I swear my wife got inside the house (15 seconds after parking the car) before I could start unpacking stuff from the car just to get offended by my mom.  If I was there, I would have heard the exchange and known the truth of what was said.  I suspected that she had been running to be with my mom without me within earshot even before that visit.  I was planning to be between them the entire time of the visit but I was not fast enough.

[Waddams]

Arguing over kids is tough.  They belong to both so compromise is in order.  

Can you focus more on validation?  Let her choose visit date first... .then you.


However... .don't back down on the concept of a r/s with your mom.

Alternate view point - you can't figure out compromise with someone that has no respect for you in the first place.  I *strongly* believe that you have to re-establish respect for yourself from a pwPD type partner first before you can effectively work out compromises.  If they don't have at least a grudging respect for you, then they will honor nothing they agree to in compromise.

[flourdust]

Wow, Zon. I'm dealing with a very similar issue. My wife and I are separated, heading toward divorce, and I wanted to take my D10 to visit with my parents and brothers over Memorial Day weekend.

My wife was opposed, for reasons that seemed to be about her feelings about my family (mostly paranoid ideation that they would all be talking about her).

I listened to her complaints. I gave her one concrete promise, which was that there would be no talk of divorce or our relationship in front of D10 (which was my intent all along, anyway). She was still upset and complaining, but I did gently tell her that we were going on the trip without trying to persuade her to see my side or get her to verbally agree to it.

By the next day, she seemed to feel validated enough by my listening to her that she stopped objecting to the trip.

So, I guess what worked for me was:

1) Telling her about the trip

2) Letting her fully express her objections, fears, and concerns

3) Validate her feelings

4) Agree with any actually reasonable requests

5) Go on the trip, even without securing explicit consent

That does sound very close to the same circumstances.  I wish I knew what to validate for my wife.  Obviously, I cannot validate her "no one in your family respects me" comment.  "Yes, you are right.  You get zero respect from them."    Refuting it by giving examples of how they respect her has worked the best in the past, but that is no longer working.  She now uses those as examples of how they are placating her.

I am feeling that my fledgling boundaries are driving her more against anything I suggest.

I have no choice but to let her fully express her objections, fears and concerns.  I have no clue how to validate her feelings.  She is a moving target.  If I refute what she says or validate what she says, she takes that as non-acceptance and counters with a different objection.  I have written in my journal some of our arguments.  She can go five or more arguments deep on a single issue.  Regarding #4, her requests are almost always reasonable.  That is the issue.  She will find something to block a long visit.  The last visit was done that way.  She had accepted it but "forgot" about it, so she arranged for needing to take D11 to the store for dance shoes on that day.  I accepted that since it was needed.  When I look back at it, I now realize that she could have taken her any day before that.

Important note:  my wife is very good at remembering schedules months out.

Just a few pointers... .hopefully, they will work you.

1) Just validate that you are hearing her concerns. "I hear what you're saying." "I'm taking your concerns seriously." You don't have to agree that your family doesn't respect her; just validate that you are hearing and thinking about what she says.

2) When it comes to agreeing to reasonable requests, I didn't mean that you should agree to dropping your plan in favor of doing something else ... .like buying shoes! Agree to reasonable requests (if there are any) that still let you do what you have planned. I agreed to not talk about divorce in front of our daughter while on the trip. That was incredibly reasonable, something I wasn't going to allow anyway (though I didn't tell her that), and didn't interfere with my plans. I wasn't going to agree not to go or to lecture my family on how they were allowed to talk about my wife.

[formflier]

 

"Help me understand" is a great way to do it.  It is much gentler than "why".

Be clear that you have no expectation for your wife to go, although she is welcome. 

"Honey, our schedule shows Thursday and Friday as being good days to visit with family"  "Your feelings and your family are valuable to me".  I would like to offer you the chance to pick which day works best for us to visit your family and I will work with my family to be OK with taking the day that is left.

Plus, Sunday looks like a great day for "just us".  I'm looking forward to a family day with just me, you and the kids.

If she gets into a pissing match about how evil your mom is, don't engage.

":)ifficult people can be hard to accept,   "  The kids having a r/s with my family is important to me, please respect my feelings on that.  If you want to stay out of it, I can handle the visit myself.  I will respect your choice on whether or not you will go.

Something like that.

Big picture:  Her feelings are ok.  She can hate your mom and still let kids go.  You are asking for her actions, not her change in feelings.

FF

[bus boy]

Hi Zon,

Very sorry to hear of your situation. I've lived it and know all to well. My BPD/NPD ex wife hates my family. S9 has been alianated from my family all his life, only for the hit and miss access I had in the past he never Would of met my family. His mother uses fear and manuplation on s9. Same as you said, she is full of paranoia my family will be talking about her. I don't know what I can say that will help your situation. You are getting good advice, let your wife know about your intension, listen,validate, all good sensible advice. One big problem, you said the 3 magic letters, NPD. My ex is more NPD than BPD but. Remember, I am sharing my experience. Everyone's is different. There is zero compromise in the NPD. They are void of human feelings. They seem to be a heartless version of BPD. If I told my ex of a family event, she would use any lie or form of manipulation to keep s9 from me. So we are good people forced to do things on the sly and of course when the NPD finds out, you are branded sneaky. They make a situation happen so they can lable you with something negative. They accuse you of being a lier when you are not, than manipulate a situation to happen where, through there emotional and mental abuse of the past, your brain goes into protection mode and you lie, not a nasty, mean, manipulating lie like the NPD tells but a protection mode lie. Than they get the satisfaction of calling you a lier. It's a no win. You feed them with your pain of them knowing it hurts you when they make it difficult or impossible for your children to see your family, if you lie about a situation, you inflate them bc you've proven them right, that you are a lier. The whole scope of this is much bigger, it can apply to any number of things they have bashed about you or your morals or personality. This is my situation it's only advice based on what I know. If I wanted s9 to have access with my family and I, I had to go against my nature and be sly, going down to her level. There will never be any easy choice or decision when dealing with someone who leans harder to NPD.

[Zon]

Thank you everyone for your comments.  I ended up letting it go.  The one part she had mentioned that I can understand was that she wanted to spend the days before her mom leaving (left Sunday so Friday and Saturday) with her mom and the kids.  Unsurprisingly to me, the only thing on Friday they all did together was to go to Costco for a little bit (about 30 minutes at the store).  I feel a bit deceived, but I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt.

If she is going to deceive me, is there a point to trying to cooperate on things like this?  Years of this have reduced my empathy.

@Waddams:  I hear you.  Unfortunately, I am not sure what she needs out of me to earn her respect of me.  I have a lot of years to try too. 

@flourdust:  I understood about the agreeing to her plan, although I did that anyway.  I did feel, a little, for her mom going home soon.  However, her mom has been living in this house for weeks, so I felt she had plenty.  Plus, we will be visiting her again in six weeks.

@formflier:  I like that suggestion to say, "help me understand."  I doubt it will change the outcome versus standing there and looking confused, but I will give it a try.  Note:  I am good at looking confused.  It is a natural talent of mine.    I have made it clear many times that she does not have to go although she is welcome to go.  I typically say it like, "You are welcome to come.  My mom invited all of us."  Very inclusive.  It either does not work or makes her more angry.

"If she gets into a pissing match about how evil your mom is, don't engage."

That is actually funny because I typically put on a "stone mask" as my wife puts it.  I do not engage at all.  The mask was learned from years of experience with her.  She does not like it, but it has kept the battles to a reduced degree.  However, I am trying to get rid of it.  It just removed her respect for me and made the relationship worse over time.  Plus, I am reaching my tolerance level.

[Zon]

Hi Zon,

Very sorry to hear of your situation. I've lived it and know all to well. My BPD/NPD ex wife hates my family. S9 has been alianated from my family all his life, only for the hit and miss access I had in the past he never Would of met my family. His mother uses fear and manuplation on s9. Same as you said, she is full of paranoia my family will be talking about her. I don't know what I can say that will help your situation. You are getting good advice, let your wife know about your intension, listen,validate, all good sensible advice. One big problem, you said the 3 magic letters, NPD. My ex is more NPD than BPD but. Remember, I am sharing my experience. Everyone's is different. There is zero compromise in the NPD. They are void of human feelings. They seem to be a heartless version of BPD. If I told my ex of a family event, she would use any lie or form of manipulation to keep s9 from me. So we are good people forced to do things on the sly and of course when the NPD finds out, you are branded sneaky. They make a situation happen so they can lable you with something negative. They accuse you of being a lier when you are not, than manipulate a situation to happen where, through there emotional and mental abuse of the past, your brain goes into protection mode and you lie, not a nasty, mean, manipulating lie like the NPD tells but a protection mode lie. Than they get the satisfaction of calling you a lier. It's a no win. You feed them with your pain of them knowing it hurts you when they make it difficult or impossible for your children to see your family, if you lie about a situation, you inflate them bc you've proven them right, that you are a lier. The whole scope of this is much bigger, it can apply to any number of things they have bashed about you or your morals or personality. This is my situation it's only advice based on what I know. If I wanted s9 to have access with my family and I, I had to go against my nature and be sly, going down to her level. There will never be any easy choice or decision when dealing with someone who leans harder to NPD.

Thank you bus boy.  That is too true about a BPD/NPD mix.  My wife's traits shift, so I cannot tell which one I will deal with.  It is almost like you could "win" by making one PD happy then the other takes over.  It is almost like a version of multiple personalities.

The NPD side is what gives her the appearance of strength, otherwise, I think she would falter a lot more.  That cold anger is quite unnerving.  When she has that anger plus her cold, dark eyes, ugh!  Is it that they feed off the pain we feel, or is it just the control they have over others the makes them feel "good"?